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Why Health Care Reform Dies if the Baucus Bill is Killed in Committee

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:33 PM
Original message
Why Health Care Reform Dies if the Baucus Bill is Killed in Committee
Many people have asked why do we need the Senate Finance Committee... and wouldn't no bill be better than a bad bill (from this committee). The answer is simply that there will be no bill in the Senate unless the Baucus bill is passed out of committee. The HCR reform bill was referred to two committees, jointly, in the Senate and as such, they must report combined legislation. The HELP committee bill jurisdiction lies with structuring the reform, while the Finance Committee jurisdiction lies in how to pay for it. If either committee kills the bill, the bill dies, period (legal text below). If both bills pass committee, then the Senate must reconcile them in conference for a vote. If the bill passes the Senate (with 51 votes), it must be reconciled with the House version.

However, if the Senate Finance Committee kills the bill, the matter is dropped entirely (the HELP bill gets no consideration), or it is referred back to committee again, and we start from square one. Given that the players aren't going to change hands, and only one member of the Senate Finance Committee is up for re-election and Senators are on 6-year cycles, the matter will likely not be reconsidered for the next 4-6 years, if ever.

Here are the rules of the Senate which cover what will happen if the Bill fails to leave committee:

http://rules.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=RulesOfSenate.View&Rule_id=675da19f-37ac-41cd-a195-48b4a4ae16ab&CFID=15726639&CFTOKEN=56101059


RULE XVII

REFERENCE TO COMMITTEES; MOTIONS TO DISCHARGE; REPORTS OF COMMITTEES; AND HEARINGS AVAILABLE

1. Except as provided in paragraph 3, in any case in which a controversy arises as to the jurisdiction of any committee with respect to any proposed legislation, the question of jurisdiction shall be decided by the presiding officer, without debate, in favor of the committee which has jurisdiction over the subject matter which predominates in such proposed legislation; but such decision shall be subject to an appeal.

2. A motion simply to refer shall not be open to amendment, except to add instructions.

3. (a) Upon motion by both the majority leader or his designee and the minority leader or his designee, proposed legislation may be referred to two or more committees jointly or sequentially. Notice of such motion and the proposed legislation to which it relates shall be printed in the Congressional Record. The motion shall be privileged, but it shall not be in order until the Congressional Record in which the notice is printed has been available to Senators for at least twenty-four hours. No amendment to any such motion shall be in order except amendments to any instructions contained therein. Debate on any such motion, and all amendments thereto and debatable motions and appeals in connection therewith, shall be limited to not more than two hours, the time to be equally divided between, and controlled by, the majority leader and the minority leader or their designees.

(b) Proposed legislation which is referred to two or more committees jointly may be reported only by such committees jointly and only one report may accompany any proposed legislation so jointly reported.

(c) A motion to refer any proposed legislation to two or more committees sequentially shall specify the order of referral.

(d) Any motion under this paragraph may specify the portion or portions of proposed legislation to be considered by the committees, or any of them, to which such proposed legislation is referred, and such committees or committee shall be limited, in the consideration of such proposed legislation, to the portion or portions so specified.

(e) Any motion under this subparagraph may contain instructions with respect to the time allowed for consideration by the committees, or any of them, to which proposed legislation is referred and the discharge of such committees, or any of them, from further consideration of such proposed legislation.

4. (a) All reports of committees and motions to discharge a committee from the consideration of a subject, and all subjects from which a committee shall be discharged, shall lie over one day for consideration, unless by unanimous consent the Senate shall otherwise direct.

(b) Whenever any committee (except the Committee on Appropriations) has reported any measure, by action taken in conformity with the requirements of paragraph 7 of rule XXVI, no point of order shall lie with respect to that measure on the ground that hearings upon that measure by the committee were not conducted in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 4 of rule XXVI.

5. Any measure or matter reported by any standing committee shall not be considered in the Senate unless the report of that committee upon that measure or matter has been available to Members for at least two calendar days (excluding Sundays and legal holidays) prior to the consideration of that measure or matter. If hearings have been held on any such measure or matter so reported, the committee reporting the measure or matter shall make every reasonable effort to have such hearings printed and available for distribution to the Members of the Senate prior to the consideration of such measure or matter in the Senate. This paragraph

(1) may be waived by joint agreement of the Majority Leader and the Minority Leader of the Senate; and

(2) shall not apply to

(A) any measure for the declaration of war, or the declaration of a national emergency, by the Congress, and

(B) any executive decision, determination, or action which would become, or continue to be, effective unless disapproved or otherwise invalidated by one or both Houses of Congress.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick kick kick kick!
It's arcane and "way in the weeds"..but it is VITAL to understand.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Help me out with this please.
Edited on Tue Oct-13-09 12:40 PM by redqueen
"(b) Proposed legislation which is referred to two or more committees jointly may be reported only by such committees jointly and only one report may accompany any proposed legislation so jointly reported."

So the "reports" are the bills? No... the reports accompany the legislation... the legislation is the bill, right? This is confusing.

This reads weird... if the legislation may only be reported by such committees jointly... why the redudancy with 'only one report may accompany the legislation'?
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. A committee votes to "report" a bill to the Senate. If the committee feels it deserves
Edited on Tue Oct-13-09 12:45 PM by berni_mccoy
consideration as a law by the entire senate, then the committee votes to "report" it. That's what the term in this rule is referring to. If the committee votes no on reporting it, then it never gets reported to the Senate and "dies" in committee.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. So what's with the "only one report may accompany legislation" part?
Thanks for your help in deciphering this.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It means that the joint committee reports the bill to the Senate. Since the bills differ
They must be reconciled in committee conference with Reid and the committee chairs.
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. The bills were never referred to committee.
They ORIGINATED in the two committees.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I'm sorry, you are wrong. The rules of the Senate are clear on this matter.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. In the OP, you said:
Edited on Tue Oct-13-09 12:57 PM by redqueen
"The HCR reform bill was referred to two committees, jointly, in the Senate and as such, they must report combined legislation."

There was an HCR bill that preceded the Baucus/AHIP bill and the HELP Committee's bill?
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yes, it was referred to committee in February as the Healthy Americans Act
A Committee can rewrite the bill entirely and it was in both committees.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I thought the HAA was separate from both the HELP and Finance Committees' bills.
It'd sure be nice if there was a resource available to make this stuff easy to get a handle on.

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. The HELP and Finance Committee bills are committee alternatives of HAA.
Edited on Tue Oct-13-09 01:33 PM by berni_mccoy
Here is the background on HAA, including when it was referred to committee in Feb. 2009. The HELP and Finance committees, rather than produce the HAA as is, have produced Alternatives. However, this still falls under the Senate Rules of referral and reporting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_Americans_Act#Senate_committee_alternatives

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Even the first paragraph there frames it as separate...
"In November 2008, The Hill pointed out that the Act, despite its two-year head start and its cosponsors from both parties, was in competition with the (then-)undrafted proposals..."

At least on Thomas.loc.gov it does say that it was referred to the Senate Finance Committee... nothing about the HELP Committee there but oh well.

I'm fairly confident that having Kerry on the Finance Committee will result in things being steered the way they need to go.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. HAA was still the referred bill that triggered the current process.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yep... I get it now.
Thanks for taking the time to explain it... and for not being snotty about it. :)
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. It's too important to be snotty about :-)
Thanks for bearing with me.

:toast:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. kick kick kick kick and kick again.... can a gal scare up a "rec" or two?
It's scary and complicated... BUT IT'S THE TRUTH
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. Square one is better than that POS. n/t
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. That POS won't be the final bill, because over 100 Democrats in the House will only vote for a bill
Edited on Tue Oct-13-09 01:02 PM by w4rma
with a public option in it. The other 4 bills coming out of 4 other Senate committees all have public options and are in every other way, shape and form better than this POS. All 5 of the Senate bills must be combined in a Senate conference. Then the resulting bill must be combined with the House bill (which has a P.O., also.) in a House/Senate conference. Finally the final combined bill from both the House and the Senate are voted on.

Learn how our government works!! Killing this bill just stalls the whole process, because this particular committee will only send out a bill similar to this one due to this committee's unique membership.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. What's this about 5 Senate bills?
First there's two, now there's five?

Seriously... nobody here seems particularly authoratative. So the "Learn how the government works!" shit can just be left out.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. There are 5, count them: five, committees in the Senate that are putting out bills.
Edited on Tue Oct-13-09 01:09 PM by w4rma
Each of these five bills (only one of which is the Finance Committee's bill) will be combined into one single bill in a Senate conference. Instead of wasting your efforts on trying to stall the process by killing the only bill that will ever come out of the Finance Committee, find other ways to influence the combined bill.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Thanks for the information.
Edited on Tue Oct-13-09 01:10 PM by redqueen
I've only seen the Finance and the HELP Committee's bills discussed anywhere. Mostly just the Finance bill.

Please share the names of the other committees which are putting out bills? Thanks again...
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I believe that poster is mistaking Senate for Congress. There are two committees in the House
Education and Labor and the Ways and Means committees. These two committees have come together on HR3200.

The other bill is HR 676, which is dead in committee (it's Kucinich's Single Payer idea). It won't leave committee at this point.

So there are 4 real bills, effectively 3 bills (HR3200, HELP committee and Baucus bill), the most likely one to become real is HR3200, but it won't if the Baucus bill doesn't leave committee.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Yes, I'm also familiar with the House bills.
Those aren't really pertinent to this discussion, though.

Which only heightens my irritation about the "Learn how the government works!" shit.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. I thought also Waxman's Energy and Commerce Committee
3 House Committees and 2 Senate Committees reporting out bills.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Ah, you are correct. I missed Waxman's bill. Thank you.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. Thanks! (nt)
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. You are mistaken. There are only 2 committees in the Senate. You are thinking of Congress, not the
Senate. The Congress as a whole has 4 bills under consideration. HR 676 is dead in committee.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. If a bill has spending in it
Finance Committee writes the legislation related to it. People are just stupid getting all worked up over this bill, just flat stupid. The hard work comes now, when it and the HELP bill are on the floor.
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. There is nothing at all redeemable in the Baucus bill
It does not deserve to be in the reconciliation process, because there is NOTHING in it worth keeping. The only way to prevent that, is to kill the worthless piece of shit in committee, and move on with the better bills.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. "...and move on with better bills." -- that won't happen if it fails committee.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
27. There seems to be a big unrec brigade.... Who is trying to
hide the facts in this case?
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SIMPLYB1980 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Single payers and Sock Puppets.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. I don't know but I just Rec'd and it's up to three..this info needs to
get out. And, I thsnk you for the link that I might have missed.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
32. K&R
Sad that this has to keep being repeated.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
34. Pelosi is sending 3 versions of a house combined bill to CBO

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2009/10/pelosi_sending_three_versions.html
Pelosi Sending Three Versions of Health Bill to CBO
By Ben Pershing
Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Thursday that she would send three different versions of a health-care bill to the Congressional Budget Office for analysis, bringing the House one step closer to a vote on a combined reform package.

skip
Pelosi said Thursday that she would send one bill to the CBO with what she called a "robust public option," that would reimburse health-care providers at 5 percent above Medicare rates. The other two versions would have rates negotiated between the government and providers. "There's no question that the robust public option scores very well," Pelosi said, emphasizing that the first version would cost less but acknowledging that it might not be able to garner the 218 votes needed for passage. (Democrats hold 256 seats in the House.) "It's very close," she said.

skip
After Pelosi gets the CBO's analysis back, Democratic leaders and the House Rules Committee will complete the job of assembling a bill for floor consideration. The leadership has already ruled out bringing a bill to the floor next week, so the week of Oct. 19 would be the earliest time a vote would occur.


I hope this makes people a little more positive. I think the Dems in the House have the greatest chance of getting some real reform in the bill.


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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Very interesting. Thanks for the article.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-13-09 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
38. Well, this bad bill is now out of committee...So how do you propose we now kill the bad parts (all)?
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