MANDATE: Men with guns will come for me if I do not buy health insurance!

Or so I have been told. This is what the otherwise rather awful Baucus Bill, now out of committee, actually requires:

"Personal Responsibility Requirement. Beginning in 2013, all U.S. citizens and legal residents would be required to purchase coverage...

...

In order to ensure compliance, individuals would be required to report on their Federal income tax return the months for which they maintain the required minimum health coverage for themselves and all dependents under age 18. ...

...

Excise Tax. The consequence for not maintaining insurance would be an excise tax of $750 per adult in the household. This per adult penalty would be phased in as follows: For 2013, $0; $200 for 2014; $400 for 2015; $600 in 2016 and $750 in 2017."
http://finance.senate.gov/sitepages/leg/LEG%202009/100209_Americas_Healthy_Future_Act_AMENDED.pdf


So there it is. If you do not have insurance you can either purchase insurance or pay a fine of $750. And yes, as the 'fine' is an excise tax, failure to pay your taxes will have the usual cascade of consequences up to and including a fusillade of bullets that terminates your tenure on-planet. Your choice.

Personally, I'd pay the 750 if I really had higher budget priorities than health insurance. A decent family plan runs 1500/month or so pre-reform, hopefully post reform not so much.

It is a massive windfall for insurance companies, nothing more.

I don't like the Baucus Bill one bit, but this theory that the damn gummint is going to force you to choose between iphones/dvds/plasma tvs/etc and health insurance actually ends up being a $750 tax for being uninsured. The point being only that this whole mandate thing has been blown WAY out of proportion.

if you don't want that, and I don't.

Personally, I'll support no such mandate.

The only way I could be persuaded to support mandates is if a strong public option is included. Maybe.

is better for the economy than just sending a check to the predators who broke the health care system.

One of the reasons America can't compete with other countries is the high cost of health insurance, mandated coverage will not help that.

although I would make it organic produce from local farmers rather than iphones/dvds/plasma tvs, but that's just me :)

Which sounds pretty, cept often costs more than out-of-pocket

who already have to chose between food and heat.
This is just bullshit if true and I hope this does not pass.
Families that cannot afford health insurance would be fined? Where will they get the money....this is just ridiculous and wrong.

it doesn't change medicare.

if their family members get fined..like my son who is now laid off might be cause he can't afford the payments...it will put us all out on the street.
Also..seniors that are also taking in family due to this mess can't afford to help their children out if it comes to fines..heck right now..that fine would pay for a visit to the emergency room for one of us.

and if family members get fined- they obviously have the income, since those that don't have income will get subsidies, not fines.

seniors who take on those responsibilities are just continuing to enable their children to continue taking advantage of the situation.

insurance cartel. that is what is going to happen anyway, why waste time pretending that we the people are going to get anything for our money being stolen from us with the threat of prison.

the financial scams that bankrupted us.

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then his family is obviously already covered by insurance- so it's a moot point.

sheesh...:eyes:

btw- where did i say that i support this bill? learn to read. or at least to comprehend.

What part of that don't you understand?

and what part of "subsidies" don't YOU understand..?

if he doesn't make enough to provide insurance for himself, his wife, and his kids- he'll probably qualify for subsidies under the bill.

working one job.
However he is helping the rest of the family where he can as well. You know..things like helping pay the water, heat, electricity and food. He cannot afford to also pay for health care for the rest of us.
And yes I realize that what is "good money" to some..might not be good money to another.
I realize those that make a lot more have a hard time relating to those of us living on the edge.
As far as "subsidies"..it all depends on the cut-off point (amount allowed) doesn't it?
I did 24 hour a day, seven days a week care giving for my sick husband for nine years...because we made $100.00 dollars a month too much over the cut- off amount allowed in order to qualify for any help with care-giving or hospice.
At that time we lived too far away for family to be able to come over and help and their situations were different then as well.
People's situations are not all cut and dried.
You might be just over the cut-off point but still have bills that this bill does not allow for..such as credit card debt that you have to still pay or old doctor bills etc.
My main concern is with the forcing of people to buy health insurance in the first place and the penalties if they don't.
If they could afford it..they would already have it.

and now they've come back and caused you to lose your home-

it's probably too late to suggest parenting classes, huh...?

and wont kick them into the gutter.
and please tell the people that have an income but are already living on the edge how its fine with you to fine them when they are already having touble making it...and tell the people living in the tent cities and are still working how there is a "safety net" in place to help them.
Senior who take on those responsibilities to help their families are not "enabling" their children to "take advantage" when those children are laid off through no fault of their own and are looking for work every day.

isn't worth helping, imho.

if it means that their parents are going to end up homeless and in the street for "helping" them- then those kids have a moral responsibility to refuse the parents help, and do it on their own- even if it means putting on the polyester and working at mcdonald's.

what kind of shitty, supposedly 'adult' child would do that to their senior parents?

seeing as you're apparently acquainted with some- fill me in, because i'm curious.

My sons moved in to help ME out when my husband died and I lost my home.
So I should now kick them out in the street? fuck you.

I am done talking to you..I don't want to know someone like you.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously, I don't think this is going to wash somehow "U.S. citizens and legal residents would be required to purchase coverage..." a tax is one thing, telling people where they must spend their post-tax dollars is going to be problematic, JMHO. A really good offer, with full coverage for those below a certain level of income, would remove the need for that piece of authoritarian overreach. It simply sets a bad precedent.

...at least according to Erwin Chemerinsky,

Are the healthcare bills pending in the House and Senate unconstitutional?

That's what some of the bills' critics have alleged. Their argument focuses on the fact that most of the major proposals would require all Americans to obtain healthcare coverage or pay a tax if they don't. Those too poor to afford insurance would have their health coverage provided by the state.

Although the desirability of this approach can be debated, it unquestionably would be constitutional.

Chemerinsky, the dean of the Cal Irvine law school,has been frequently mentioned as a potential Obama Supreme Court nominee

wouldn't people who could afford health insurance already be buying it?

lol

Does this mean the market only doesn't work when they need to force us to buy their POS?

tomes could be written.

I am Canadian, (born in USA but Canadian by choice)

I am retired. age 61. I don't pay anything for my basic health care. I do pay about $130 a month on private health care for eyes, ears and physio, semi private and prescriptions.

I pay about 20 percent taxes. I don't mind this at all since Canada is a great country to live in.

My son and husband had cancer the same time, in 1998. First, my almost 25 year old son had seizures one day and 3 days later he had a brain operation. He had the same kind of brain cancer as Ted Kennedy. Two months later my husband found a lump near his stomach. It turned out after operation that he had Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
They fought the good fight. They had over a million dollars of treatments with the best surgeons, radiation, and chemo doctors.
They died 17 months apart. first my son then my husband.

I am not bankrupt.

Somehow I feel like insurance is like a lottery. You may be lucky, especially if you are young and never need it but if you need it, here in Canada we have it.
I was also diagnosed with fybromaliga and stress and was off work and treated while they were ill.
There were no medical bills.

My question is ..is 20 percent a lot for taxes for you Americans? My taxes cover more than health care, I contribute to education, road improvements, police, fire, libraries, military , etc.

I think it is fair Do you?

And when I am 65 I will just pay 2 bucks for my prescriptions. - an annual fee of $100 for us seniors then each prescription is just 2 bucks.

I have a big conflict with my NJ brother, named Bubba, He calls me Jane Fonda the traitor because I love Obama. He loves Fox and all the crew there. Hard to believe we are brother and sister.

do not have the means get insured......but alot of US citizens call themselves xtian, but do exactly the opposite what JC preached, and I think its just human to take care of the lest of us.....

It's hard to imagine the possiblity from an irrational one, but if I stretch my perspective of course it is far more fair.

It's just that we have to buy a whole lot of bombs and resource extraction subsidies and outright bailouts to support our overclass, or something even more horrible than has already happened might happen again, try to understand.

Seriously though, my envy for your far more rational and practical system does not preempt my sorrow for your losses. :hug:

After 10 years this month of my son's passing I am coming to acceptance. Ted Kennedy's fight with his brain tumor made me realize how lucky my son was as he got the same treatment Teddy had received for the same type of tumor. and that was 11 years ago. He survived 18 months...He was in intensive care for 4 weeks after his third operation than palliative care for a week. Such wonderful hospital staff and doctors.

The tax is for both provincial and federal combined.

It was so wonderful to go to the doctor with my sons at the first sign of problems and not worry about paying. You went in and out seeing the doctor without any paperwork.

My niece works for Lockheed Martin and she hates Obama. She said she has a good health plan and so does her husband who works for UPS...They don't want to pay for anyone else's health care. She said that may not sound emphatic but that is how she feels. She then went on to say her friends in Pharma industry like taking out doctors to dinners and enjoy their high salaries and they don't want to pay for any one else's health care. I couldn't believe she would actually say this. But I guess her job depends on war and strife and pays well. I only hope she never loses her job and has a health problem.

Here in Canada you have health care no matter what you are, rich, poor, old , young. There are no pre-existing conditions. No denials of treatment. I live in the rural north of Ontario where doctors are at a shortage but I can see my doctor or anyone in his group the same day. He is in a walk in clinic. I lived in Toronto in my early years in Canada. I can say the health care is good up here as in Toronto.

I am so happy to know that there are sane Americans still in America when I read DU. I only hope you all can get a good health care system like I have.

I also have a rightwing niece. It's very odd talking to her, you can see the shell she and her husband have built up around themselves, obviously from fear. Very closed and certain and fearful. I wish there was something I could do to ease their fears but so far they aren't listening. So, I just keep on keeping on, trying to model a less fearful life just in case they ever feel open to a change.

Enjoy your Canada!

...especially if you add in payroll taxes for Social Security.

like right wing nut jobs

kudos to "like right wing nutjobs" though, very standard.

You ridicule this with the 'fusillade of bullets' comment, but if you refuse to pay the tax, the same thing will happen to you that happens to other willful tax evaders - they'll throw your ass in jail.

So no, they won't come after you for refusing to buy the insurance - but they certainly will if you refuse to pay the fine. And the IRS is known to be fairly ruthless.

From the Finance bill, as amended:

Just what does that mean..Collection shall be limited to withholding of federal payments due?

And you continue to refuse to pay it, while those who actually DO have federal payments due are having them seized? Will the IRS just shrug it off? It's still willful non-compliance.

So, maybe they won't come after you with guns - they'll just seize your property. That makes it all better.

...which has a must-purchase, must-issue insurance plan, has similar sanctions.

The Massachusetts plan -- the only actual plan with an actual mandate with an actual fine in a real state in the real world -- recently was approved by respondents 2-1 in a 28 September Harvard/Boston Globe poll.

Repeal got a whopping 11%.

80% white and the majority made over 30,000 a year.

They'll take your house to make sure you pay for the insurance company CEO's golden parachutes. It just goes to show that the only ones that are truly free are those that have nothing to lose (to the government).

send me to jail, you mendacious, murderous thieves and be damned to you all. at least then I'll have health care.

it is an obscenity to force us to be slaves to the insurance cartel. wonder what the founders are thinking right now.

mandates are fine, as long as they are in line with your own personal views.

What's so tough to understand about that?

be the one coming after you. But the men with guns might be a little more reasonable.

Unless Baucus can figure out a way to draw blood from a stone, they're getting nothing from me.
They'll probably deduct it from my Social Security when I turn 65.
So what?
What do I care about 65 when I'm already ruined?

I highly doubt they would enforce that fine.

then don't pay fine levied on you because you didn't juice the insurance mafia. And don't have 750 dollars for the enforcers to collect. Then don't go to tax court on your appointed court date because you didn't pay the fine for not juicing the insurance mafia. Men with guns = government = insurance enforcers. And they will come get you.

I fucking DARE you to try this.