NY State MANDATES healthcare workers to get both flu shots -

or get fired. CNN/HLN has been carrying this story all morning.

While I believe you have to be a fool to not get the flu shots, I also have been a fool many times in my life, and would never deny anyont the same right.

If you are a patient in a hospital, you have the right to refuse any medication or treatment, but evidentlyy NY state nurses do not share that right.
I am assuming this has to do with possibly infection patients and possible staffing problems if many workers are out sick, but I think there is a line that has been crossed by the state and they are wrong.

I believe in free choice in everything, if I agree with it or not.

mark

That's just wrong - can you imagine if they next mandate that women take birth control?

hayflick limit. Your immune system does a better job over your lifespan if it only gets the flu occasionally rather than every year. You literally wear it out, so you'll die of ass cancer at fifty but by god you won't get the flu.

I sincerely hope the state of NY is sued and loses; it's a terrible idea.

that hospital would catch lawsuits from the other side if someone got sick.

health field, especially in a hospital, and refuse this vaccine then you shouldn't be at work.

Oh - this shit is not progressive guys - I'm a bit ashamed of you.

and in the end the patients safety is more important than the job of the healthcare worker who refuses to get the vaccine..

The patient's safety is not guaranteed just because someone got the flu shot!!!!

Stop the frikking panic and wise up: protected physical contact, hand washing, and even face masks are far more effective.

You can have all the flu shots in the world and still be a vector yourself.

then its worth it to the patient...

:shrug:

How did you establish 1% or .00001% as a threshold? What's the difference? Because firing EVERYBODY and not having hospitals even further reduces the chance of giving the flue to a patient.

It's the fucking FLU, not Ebola.

that doesn't mean that every doctor with AIDS patients should get an AIDS vaccine, moreover one for each phenotype.

You've singled out the flu, GENIUS, and forgotten everything else. That's the problem with kneejerk reactions, they're myopic and don't consider any other consequence.

Stop panicking, I know it's addictive and exciting but it's not cool.

as i said your choice dosent matter when it comes to patients safety, if the hospital can increase the safety by even 0.00001% by mandating flu shots then thats the right thing to do, cause im sure that you wash your hands every two seconds....

:yawn:

Try hand washing, nitrile gloves, and not coming into work when you're sick.

ALSO, although it skipped right past the feeble minds here, you can still pass the flu on for EXACTLY the same reasons you can pass on any infection whether or not you have it or have the antibodies for it.

WASH YOUR HANDS.

When it works I will get it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/health/research/25aids.html

"The vaccine — known as RV 144, a combination of two genetically engineered vaccines, neither of which had worked before in humans — was declared a qualified success after a six-year clinical trial on more than 16,000 volunteers in Thailand. Those who were vaccinated became infected at a rate nearly one-third lower than the others, the sponsors said Thursday morning.

“I don’t want to use a word like ‘breakthrough,’ but I don’t think there’s any doubt that this is a very important result,” said Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, which is one of the trial’s backers.

“For more than 20 years now, vaccine trials have essentially been failures,” Dr. Fauci said. “Now it’s like we were groping down an unlit path, and a door has been opened. We can start asking some very important questions.”"

FLU, genius! CHILDREN, TEENAGERS AND YOUNG ADULTS HAVE AND ARE DYING FROM IT. HELLOOOO??????? This is a potentially deadly virus, especially to the young. And people DIE from the flu, it is nothing to trifle with. Several college students in my home state just died from swine flu this past month.

HELLOOOOO!!!!

Have you ever felt more alive than now, defending the poor, the incontinent, and the youths in asia from evil anti-MANDATE villains like me!?!

Oy gevalt, what a world, what a world.

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children, teenagers and adults to be a funny matter or not a big deal, then go right ahead. Somehow, I don't think that's "progressive." And if it were your child or relative who died because of the selfishness of a health care worker demanding their "choice" over their patients' well-being, I think you'd be singing a different tune.

you win. You figured it out. I'm joining your side.

I just had lunch at a restaurant that lets you use a shared marker to dot your sandwich choices and handle the stub that the cook gets to work from.

the cook has gloves, but he handles hundreds of these per hour without changing his gloves.

I think we should mandate that everyone on the street get the flu vaccine, and HPV vaccine too while we're at it so young, healthy human females don't get cervical cancer from somebody's anal warts if they forget to wash their hands.

We should also mandate and enforce hand washing in every restroom across the united states, because god dammit (patriotic tears in eyes) nobody cares more than you and I do.

Good fucking grief. Drama should be fought with drama. :eyes:

I am the enemy of mandates. I recommend my employees get flu shots, but I don't require it, and there is not a god damn thing you or anyone on this thread can do about it.

TTFN.

who deal with sick people all day long? Are they on the front lines of disease, including a new virus that can be quite deadly to young, healthy adults? No? Then that's a different story. But it's different in the case of health care workers.

the National Health Emergency declared back in March includes the caveat of mandatory vaccines.

I am sure you did not know that.

So yes, I can't, but the Federal Government does HAVE THAT AUTHORITY...

A state is choosing to exercise it with a group of people where it makes SENSE... FRONT LINE HEALTH CARE WORKERS.

By the way, that one falls under the category of Disaster Emergency Declaration... and your day to day rules go out the window...

And I'm the one who supplies that too.

Anyway, not trying to be a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian.

Front line healthcare workers at Baylor is broadly interpreted to include all staff. You do know that the state also mandates/mandated random drug testing of students, and the only people that benefited from that were the people getting paid to produce kits and test results.

I don't trust the Federal Government to not be in pocket any more than the state when it comes to mobilizing us by panic, and yes, I do believe H1N1 is a panic.

Just the same, as you said, common sense applies across the board to all infectious disease, so the common sense is if you don't want to or shouldn't have a vaccine (which would be exceedingly rare as a health care professional) then you should be willing to disclose that to your patients.

You CAN be a vector even with the vaccine, so it's the status of VECTOR that it is most logical to mitigate, not panic.

Vaccine are not magical barriers to spreading disease.

at Gaston Memorial Hospital. She gets all her vaccines every year.

and in radiology and chemo it's doubly important to try to avoid being a vector. This is taking choice away.

We had a talk about this the other night. Hospitals are full of sick people with low immunities it's for safety and health of the patients.

made for people like other posters in this thread, and not for medical reality.

well being of their patients.

Read to the end of the thread.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

and I would support anyone else who had an objection to doing it as well. WASH YOUR HANDS.

you would not only deserve to be fired, but sued by the family members of people you infected.

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I have over 250 people who report to me. Aetna gave my company sample text to use to get around some of the legalities of forcing employees to get the flu shot, carefully worded around this topic. I reworded the letter, but the boss can do that. We provide "free" flu shots to anyone who wants them, although technically every single shot is accounted for and paid for out of our budget.

Nevertheless if somebody doesn't want to get the flu shot, I won't make them, and there isn't a god damn thing you can do about it. You are utterly helpless to enforce a mandate in my domain, missy. Let me reiterate: you can bitch and moan about how evil I am for not enforcing a mandate but rather making choice available, but there is NOTHING you can do to make my employees get a flu shot if they don't want one.

So sorry, call the authorities or something. Oooh. Call the FBI. Please.

There is a followup to this, but it involves science, with a little accounting thrown in so you certainly wouldn't understand it.

I assure you with 100% certainty nobody has died as a result.

about your "right" to potentially make someone sick than a person's right to not become ill due to the selfish choices of others who considered their selfishness to be more important, then you would deserve to be sued up the wazoo and back. That would certainly be poetic justice.

pitiful.

Anyway, I hire professionals, not children. I treat them like grown ups. Voluntary participation means that nobody who has regular contact with the public has failed to get a flu shot, no mandate required.

Isn't that amazing. Progressive values lead to the same outcome. Anyway, I believe you just made some kind of sick wish that someone WOULD die so I could get sued, and that means the only pathology here is you.

I really don't understand where people are coming from here, being so blase about the health and well-being of sick people and patients who have the right to know that their health care workers have done all they can to ensure that they don't catch a potentially deadly virus.

isn't that the point. Just saying there is more than one way to get to that solution.

You just want it to be by force, and that makes you a person I don't want setting policy for me or mine. Also if you did, I would break the law on a case by case basis.

So take your blanket rules and your blanket statements and your blanket accusations please and apply them to someone else.

I'm not playing with anyone's life ever, but are many more factors involved than just forcing someone to get a flu shot because you can. Stop panicking, chicken little. The sky is NOT falling.

nt

refuse the vaccine and consequently make others sick are taking the choice away from them. The right not to get sick at the hands of a health care worker when it could have been easily prevented certainly trumps that health care workers' right to choice. IOW, the right to be selfish and irresponsible.

do you know anything at all about microbiology? Anything at all? You don't know that they didn't get sick sitting in the waiting room because some stupid fucker showed up sick and spewed snot, sputum and aerosol everywhere.

Stop being a fucking drama queen.

I'm a Liberal and proud of it. I'm a bit ashamed of "progressives" lately.

virulently, so to speak.

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health care workers don't spread a potentially fatal virus to their patients, families, and communities? We're always talking about the "greater good" of society at large as opposed to our own selfish interests, well, that clearly should be the case here. It is the height of irresponsible selfishness for a health care worker to not get the vaccine if they don't have a medical reason for refusing it. That really endangers lives. It's "progressive" to worry about needlessly endangering lives and putting your own selfish interests above the general welfare.

Understand the word please. We're focused on this fashionable soap opera flu instead of any of a thousand other communicable deadly bugs.

I'm against a mandate. I am for vaccinations. I am for flu vaccinations by hospital personnel, but against mandating it on pain of firing.

It's that simple. If you want more people in a non-mandate world to get the vaccination then give them an incentive to do so.

That's progressive. Mandates are not progressive.

in order to help ensure that others around them don't get sick, or that they themselves don't get sick and make their families ill. Well, I guess selfish, irresponsible, thoughtless people would be the ones who would need an "incentive."

read your last sentence again and tell me how you arrived at that?

The logic is actually: selfish, irresponsible, thoughtless people are the ones who require a mandate, because they won't take responsibility themselves.

solution:

1. give those irresponsible people like yourself a mandate, because SURELY without a mandate you wouldn't get a flu shot

or

2. address selfish and irresponsible seeming behavior at its root cause.

I'm sorry I've been doing this a long long long long time damn sight longer than you kiddo, and your idiotic idealism and irritating ad homimens aren't going to change reality.

go back from whence you came child. This is not your world and I'm damn sure glad of it.

who should not get the vaccine and if I go to the hospital, I want to see the employees who didn't get the vaccine wearing badges to that effect--so I can refuse to let them near me.

I've got enough problems.

:P

Seriously it really is the more mature solution, for grownups. Maybe we should also make our coworkers at work wear those badges.

Hmmm. I think we should make everyone wear badges with any infectious status on their lapel so we can avoid them. I don't want no frikkin' herpes, so 1 in 5 dudes is going to be sporting a badge with a picture of a canker on it.

Oh and don't get me started on shingles and halitosis. Heartburn? Keep your helobacter pylori to yourself please - I'd rather not even shake hands.

It's all panic - and a little silly.

I didn't say I didn't have it or want it myself.

I said I'm anti-Mandate. Just like I can be pro-choice and be a dude even though I would likely be anti-abortion, but only for myself, if I weren't a dude. I know, it's complicated.

That is all. Feel free to stay the hell away from me too, mkay.

Swine Flue Panic is what we should call this flu. Is there a shot for panic? Give THAT to the hospital administrators.

Seriously, the inability to look past the present and understand consequences is what republicans and conservatives are famous for.

The consequence of having a flu shot (one or more) every year of your adult life is that you have decided your immune system should get burnt up avoiding the flu, which leaves cancer, pneumonia, and any other opportunistic infection lurking out there.

It's wrong to insist that a medical professional be forced to immunize. Strongly encouraged is one thing but ULTIMATELY it's taking choice away. And "firing" someone for cause is just fucking evil.

what other vaccines should we just forego, the most important people in this are the patients, if you are not willing to take the vaccine to protect them then the hospital should not let you work with them..

Authoritarianism for the sake of panic is not good application of law.

Oh and "shoulds" and "should nots" are not good enough reasons to fire a medical professional. You do know what firing means, right?

thats the bottom line, as the patient my safety is more important than your choice....

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glad to say that the hospital at least sees the danger of staff infecting their patients...

disagreeing with you does not mean I am against patient safety. And you make patient safety sound like a real problem around medical professionals. Hence, have you stopped beating your wife.

Really - you have one tool in your toolkit dude, and believe me your authoritarian hammer is inappropriate for adults and professionals.

appears to be far more concerned with his own selfish needs than with the health and safety of patients and the public in general.

oh brilliant historian of nothing.

Alas if you had a college education you would be able to read and conclude that disagreeing with you in no way means being unconcerned about the health and safety of patients and the public in general.

You're coming across as not very smart - you DO realize we're on the same side right? Just different methods for getting there.

Of course not, or you wouldn't keep typing.

Wowza, you totally should get a Nobel Prize for figuring that out! Where'd you publish those results?

how bout there.

no Nobel prize required, just reading comprehension.

All children are required to have a series of vaccinations before they are admitted into public school. As a result diphtheria, measles, smallpox, rubella, polio and influenza type b have been nearly eliminated from our population. Mumps has also seen nearly a 95% decline.

The idea that health care professionals, especially any who have been injecting children with vaccines for decades to eradicate the deadly and debilitating diseases listed above, would whine about having to take H1N1 to help save the lives of their patients is absolutely hypocritical, selfish and asinine.

I pity the country if people who think like you ever dominate the conversation over protecting the health of our children and people with compromised immune systems.

In light of the number of vaccinations that are already required in our country your argument sounds really silly.


Also, most people have to take drug test to get a job.

that would prevent the spread of a potentially deadly illness are two entirely separate things. Health care workers have an ethical responsibility to ensure that they do everything possible not to spread illness to their patients and their families, period. When it comes to public health, there should be no issue with mandates such as this.

And that IS reality. Almost no medical professional who has routine patient contact is going to disagree that getting the H1N1 flu shot is the responsible thing to do, this year, and I concur.

I'm just against mandates that mean that someone working in an annex doing pathology and never seeing a patient or someone working in mole bio in a research lab or someone in IT in a completely different campus building should be forced to get the fucking flu vaccine.

But that's just a little too much nuance for this crowd - so I'm more than a little disappointed in the virulence directed at me personally. Also, completely aware it's a not very mature crowd I'm dealing with for the most part, or there wouldn't be ad hominems involved at all and it would just be a discussion of "what abouts" instead of "should be's".

"I'm not washing my hands, you oppressive mind- and body-controlling fucks!!!!!!!!!!"

"That's your right as a human being. Let's go do the surgery!"

"Wait, let me pick my nose first and also fondle this disposed biohazard material"

"Okay."

:eyes:

libertarian jihad? what the fuck? How about complete hyperbolic recharacterization of anything I've said? I had more respect for your posts before this one.

I'm anti mandate for flu shots, not anti-vaccine, not anti-hygiene. Really, you could have been smarter in your reply.

but here's a set of :eyes: with your name on it.

i would want to have the staff dealing with me vaccinated, especially if there was a reason i had not had the vaccine or could not, i think the hospital is covering itself in case anyone dies there.

The problem is twofold if they are not immunized. As you mentioned, there is the possibility of staffing issues in the case of a pandemic or epidemic.

BUT, there is also the issue of infection in the hospital itself. A huge number of infections occur inside hospitals because you have a large population of people whose immune systems are weakened or suppressed for many reasons (surgeries, other illnesses, etc. can all reduce the efficacy of your immune system). Additionally, those who already have weakened immune systems are far more likely to die from such an infection.

Any and all steps that can be taken to reduce the infection of patients in those circumstances should be taken.

The biggest issue is that even if people stay home when they begin feeling ill, it's already too late. By the time an individual shows flu symptoms, they have most likely already been contagious for several days and have already spread the disease.

Should they be fired for refusing the vaccine? Perhaps not, but I don't think a suspension until flu season has passed would be out of order.

The foremost concern of any healthcare professional should be the health of their patients. If they are refusing to take actions that would protect their patients, then they should be prohibited from treating those patients.

but everyone close but my asthmatic son will get it to protect he and me.

I've been under tremendous stress recently (divorce) and that weakens my resistance--and raises the chance of losing diabetwes control even more. I know what the flu can do all too well. It's as close to a death sentence for me as I'm likely to conme across. I've taken certain oaths and accepted certain ugly truths in my profession (paralegal). I have to occosionally do things for people I don't care for.

It isn't unreasonable to expect those in health care to do the same.

Don't know where you are getting your information - but every recommendation I've seen puts people with diabetes at the top of the list for people who SHOULD be vaccinated. (And, I've been looking - since my spouse has diabetes and my daughter has another chronic illness.)

http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/projects/cdc-flu.htm

(and, FWIW, the recommendation is the same for the H1N1 vaccine)

As a private individual, I have a right to go around without washing my hands. A doctor or a nurse does have a duty to wash their hands when around vulnerable patients. As a private individual, I have a right to avoid obviously sick people who might infect me (a far greater risk to health care workers than the vaccines are). A doctor or a nurse cannot say, "I won't go to work today, I'm scared of the patients' germs!", if they want to continue in this job. Similarly, a doctor or a nurse should take vaccinations for the sake of their patients' safety. There may be room for argument about *which* vaccinations are and aren't crucial from this point of view; but doctors and nurses are paid for looking after their patients, and therefore cannot take the libertarian 'do as you please' approach when it comes to patients' welfare. As a small child during the last pandemic, I caught the flu from a doctor when in hospital for another illness; and it's not really something I'd recommend if it can be avoided.

She is pregnant.
She said, I don't know what will happen with my job, but one this is for sure, they are not going to inject a 6month pregnant woman with anything.

responsibility to go along with it.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Pandemic-flu/Pages/Adviceforpregnantwomen.aspx

Foolish nurse. Hope her fetus remains healthy, no thanks to her.

but she doesn't get a guaranteed job to go with that right.

I recently retired after 26 years as a physician.

1) Washing hands, and wearing face masks too if desired, is a far more effective policy. One can better stop spread of flu as well as other nasty things this way. Let's take a known example: There are about 11-12 times more flu strains out there than can be included in a vaccine. H1N1 is only one strain.

2) About 4 years ago I did a study. Maybe I should have tried to publish it but I have been more curious than aspiring all my life. Anyway, what it actually measured was WHY healthcare workers decided to get or to not get flu vaccines. The biggest reason, by far, was whether or not they offered free, and whether or not the DON pushed them. It also showed that recent (previous 2 years/flu seasons) vaccine success was NOT a factor in the decision.

This study looked at nursing home workers (not just their nurses) all of whom were offered it for free in some nursing homes, and none of whom got it for free in others.

So if you go into a hospital where everyone is vaccinated you could still get the flu. (Person A's flu virus is spread by vaccinated people who don't wash their hands often.) If hand washing is not enforced (and it can be monitored and enforced, trust me) you can catch the flu and/or lots of nastier things anyway.

as hard as that might be for some to believe. If you aren't washing your hands and practicing good clinical hygiene, you can still be a vector whether or not you are symptomatic yourself.

Beware the pitchforks and torches though - we have a kneejerk population who insists on conformity without a lot of science or fact checking.

and fail to do so in obvious situations.

I have been in the bathroom on more occasions than I can count, where I was standing at the urinal taking care of business, and someone has come straight out of a stall, walked directly past the sink...straight out the door.

Let's put this in plain terms : they just had their hand shoved in their crack, and will not make any effort to clean up directly after this act! :puke:

most folks just give em a quick rinse and off they go

you have to wash long enough to sing the 'Happy Birthday' song TWICE and that's quite a bit longer than most people are aware is necessary

I'm with Sui and Aragorn here. There are better ways to prevent spreading the flu than by compromising the health of the health care workers. Excessive vaccination carries its own set of risks. I am not antivax generally -- obviously many lives have been saved by wiping scourges off the map -- but I've also seen 1st hand some damage excessive vaccination can do. I think it should be reserved for the worst diseases. I think we overvaccinate children these days, to their detriment.

I'm currently a med lab tech student. My biggest concern has been around the exposure I will potentially have to various pathogens AND the number of vaccinations I may be required to get.

Had I seen the medical forms they handed us at the start of this semester 2 years ago I would *never* have invested the time, energy and money I have into my training.

As it is, I'm seriously considering dropping out and throwing away 2 years of hard work and about $30K investment.

by their employers, as a matter of routine.

I guess when a hospital requires its workers to do it, that's fine and dandy... but if the state does it, it's EEEEEEEVIL!

on the flu vax if I established a policy that forced my employees to all get vaccinations on policy.

So, fascism, or maybe just another free gimmee to corporate america. I'm fine with it. On the investment side, every flu shot you get pads my wallet - so have at it! Hell we should mandate that every person in the u.s. gets every possible vaccination or pay a fine.

:hi:

I'm surprised the mandatory flu shot policy wasn't already in place.

As for your drama... thanks, I'll pass.

a bit of frustration, not drama red.

I'm against mandating the policy. I'm not against the vaccine. But apparently I'm against patient safety and for infecting people.

Drama? Have you looked around this thread? The flu the flu the sky is falling. Jesus - that's drama. A bunch of non-medical people here dictating how the world should be, and getting pissy about it.

Brings out the worst in me.

I see the 'corporate giveaway' comments as drama... cause like I said, this is pretty standard stuff.

As for the swine flu scare... I can't disagree there. Early reports may have indicated a higher fatality rate than the seasonal flu... not sure why it was skewed but recent reports have it as about the same as the seasonal flu.

All that aside though... mandatory flu shots for healthcare workers is really nothing to start pulling our hair out over. It's SOP.

We're focused on H1N1 because its fashionable, nevermind the other killer strains out there. It's all drama.

it would appear that just because you work in a hospital doesn't mean you understand medicine. Some of them seem to get all their information from gossip and odd web sites.

First, medical personnel are supposed to care about patients safety. I know every profession has its weak links, but this would seem to be a way to determine those weak links.

Second, no hospital can risk the law suit threat from having nurses and doctors passing on the virus. Every single hospital in the country would be sued within six months. For those hospital employees who don't understand this, maybe this is just not a field where you should be working. Maybe as rush limpy's private nurse. He says he won't get one either. That would you in the company of people with similar thinking processes.

Find a smart nurse, and ask them about their coworkers. It will be an eye-opener.

you are correct. Most medical personnel suck at practicing what they preach, so you get anesthesiologists with drug dependencies and oncologists who smoke, but for the most part as a rule, most medical people ARE responsible and not children who need mandates for which direction to wipe their ass, north to south, south to north or widdershins.

several years back. She spoke of being appalled about some of her colleagues and worried for the safety of the patients under their care. She is Dean of a nursing school now. (I assure you she lined up right away for her inoculation.)

When I hear some of the stories, I think of the doctors in Idiocracy.

It's got what plants crave. It's go electrolytes.

or rather, you can have the vaccine, and if you pass on the virus then it's okay because you had the vaccine?

You're confusing the issue - I'm not anti-vaccine. I'm anti taking away choice. I'm sorry that lines up with Rush in any fashion - I don't follow Rush at all, so you're the one who will have to tell me about that.

Just the same, patient safety has many more dimensions than a MOTHERFUCKING VACCINE!

Jesus people. Don't intimate stupid shit when you're a one-eyed beggar in the world of the blind.

is so patently wrong-headed on a subject and gets called out, they resort to shouting and cursing and calling names and ducking their statements and making stuff up about what someone else said. They dig themselves into a hole and instead of putting up a hand and asking for help or even just sitting still, they dig deeper and deeper thinking that down is the way out.

Show me where I said that the vaccine is the only way to prevent the virus. You can't do that but you don't mind throwing in any stupid line that would seem to make you seem less wrong. I'm not confusing the issue, but you are sure trying to because you haven't a chance in hell of truly defending your silly position.

To do so you try to appear nobly defending personal choice. So stupid. And the wrong way to go here. Just deeper in the hole. Do you want to defend everyone's right to any choice they want? You don't get to choose to add to the risk for other people's lives. You can't choose to get ripping drunk and drive through a school zone. You can't choose to go ahead and work in a restaurant kitchen without testing if Hepatitis has been found there. Get over yourself. You aren't that important.

Good for you that you don't follow rush limpy. I will bring you up to day. He said he wasn't getting one and that the government couldn't make him. He said it was a rushed job and not safe. So you and he have that in common anyway.

In the next paragraph you go a little crazy, start shouting and cursing and seem intimate that everyone here doesn't know to wash their hands. In the last paragraph you continue degenerating into pointless and confusing blather. My reply is that there is some stupid shit here, but it is coming from you. ((One-eyed beggar in the world of the blind"? Where in the hell did you learn to mix up your analogies like that? I know you are embarrassed about getting caught writing while selfish, but you aren't helping your point with that kind of crazy talk)

My advice is for you to exercise your free choice. Please don't get the vaccine. Get fired. Then find a career where you don't have to choose between your uninformed whim and endangering other people's lives. That way everyone will be happy. (See. Infinite wisdom.)

OK, I believe everyone should have the choice as to whether or not they receive a vaccine, even healthcare workers, nurses, etc.

BUT...I also believe that patients have a right to know if their particular healthcare worker has NOT received a vaccine. Just like a patient can, and should, refuse treatment from a healthcare worker if that person has not, for example, washed his/her hands before treating the patient (or donned fresh rubber gloves), I think a patient should be allowed to refuse treatment from someone who has not received the vaccine.

Paranoid? Who knows.

But it's their health and safety at risk in a setting where there are enough nasty germs floating around anyway.

Mr Pip is going in for knee surgery next week and I am terrified he'll pick up some infection. He's diabetic and is prone to getting staph infections, nearly dying of one in Libya back in the 50s.

I don't trust hospitals at all.

system and if I was in the hospital for anything I would be worried about picking up the flu from someone not vaccinated. Don't things spread in hospitals quickly? I think this might be panic on both sides....panic from a vaccine and panic of the H1N1 virus.

it's the mandate. How is mandating a flu shot at a hospital different than mandating one at work at a bank or a real estate office or an accounting firm?

You're many times more likely to get the flu from a coworker than by visiting the hospital, if you ever even visit a hospital.

So why not mandate flu shots for everyone or else fire them? That's the rub for me. Not panic, not anti-vaccine AT ALL, but against removing choice from grownups.

hospital. My Mom's best friend is a nurse. I will ask her what she thinks about this. Being in a place where there are vulnerable people to begin with does worry me a bit.
I too am wary about forcing. Firing goes too far for me but why refuse the vaccine to begin with? Is it because it is a newer vaccine?

I don't know, I lost fear of vaccines a long time ago. I get a regular flu one every year. I have diabetes and my 4 year old got her flu vaccine too as she has asthma. I think we will both be getting the H1N1 vaccine soon. The fear from getting anything other then a regular cold propels me to get it. I get colds that don't go away...last for weeks. Sinus infections, bronchitis, etc. It is kind of a bummer actually.

infection in another hospital while haveing a pacemaker implanted. I am also a firm believer in frequent, thourogh hand washing and I even believe in the vaccines - I just have a problem with the MANDATE part, both as a former AFSCME Steward in the hospital and just as an individual.
Who and what will they MANDATE next?

mark

kill or damage them.

Most people who go to work or the bank start out in reasonable health. I think we should all be considerate of others' health and stay at home if we're ill so as not to spread the bugs. But in most areas of life we're not talking about people who are in extremely poor medical condition to start with.

Health workers have to take certain risks because they have chosen to work with medically vulnerable people. Having your patients breathe on you is far more dangerous than a vaccine, yet health workers have to take that risk. I can give a wide berth to the colleague who has come to work coughing and spluttering; a doctor or nurse is obliged to stick around and look after the coughing patient, at the risk of catching the disease. I can tell my student who comes to see me after hours that I have to go home, and will see her tomorrow - and be reasonably sure that an 18-hour delay will not kill her. A health care worker may have to see a patient in the middle of the night if it's an emergency. There are all sorts of things that health care workers take on as part of the job that they have chosen.

At the very least, I think that patients should have the right to know if a doctor or a nurse has not been vaccinated, and to demand to see a different doctor or nurse.

That was very cool.

not a top priority, sadly. It's probably more geared to keeping staffing levels up during flu season. I oppose forced vaccines. Edit to add: there is a health risk to the vaccines, in particular Guillain Barre syndrome. That's why it really can't be mandated.

as some people are, and/or if they don't have any medical reason why they shouldn't get the shot, then I have NO problem with this mandate whatsoever. These are health care workers on the front line, it would be very easy for them to spread a virus and/or take one home to their families and spread it there, which would then spread it further. Swine flu is hitting the young very hard and many are dying from it, even those who are healthy, because people forty and under have never been exposed to this particular kind of virus before, unlike older Americans, which is why it's hitting the young so much harder. It's extremely selfish on the part of health care workers NOT to get the vaccine if they have no medical reason for it. PERIOD. They have no right to endanger my health, the health of my family, or any other patients' health, and to then spread it further. NO. RIGHT. They may not care that they get it, but they need to care that others will because of them.

Vaccines: the next market bubble!

I'll be genuinely sad that it wasn't republicans that made me filthy rich.

but if you are truly for "free choice for all," you won't be surprised one bit.

a lot of people here mischaracterizing my position. Not that I care - I've taken on much tougher crowds on DU on much worthier topics, and I'm still here.

I too believe in free choice for everything whether I agree or not, so I agree with you on this.

they DO have free choice- they can choose whether or not they want to keep their jobs.

in the DU community and nationwide.

It's appalling. Do people not understand epidemics/pandemics and risk/reward calculations.

And yes, it is willful ignorance!

doesn't sound very scientific to me.

Are there any adults on this thread? Other than redqueen who is as old and evil as I am?

and other health workers are somehow responsible for the bulk of the yearly flu epidemic, and if we could just strap them all down and inject them, we'd all be safe. Most should get the vaccine, out of common sense and duty. But if they refuse, I don't think it should mean they have their livelihoods taken away, because there is a health risk to vaccines, and most folks will NOT get the flu from unvaccinated health-care workers, even as patients--because most conscientious health workers understand the risk of introducing flu into a high risk patient population and stay home with symptoms. When I worked as a nurse, it was frowned upon to show up to work with snotting and coughing and other symptoms. But the rest of America isn't so courteous, and the rest of America certainly doesn't wash hands or cover mouths. Most folks will get it from their kids, their co-workers, their keyboards and mouses, doorknobs, etc. Speaking as one having had the flu already this year, and my kids just had it this week. They're bringing that shit home from school, where almost half of classmates have been out sick.

Not as nasty or evil, and certainly wiser.
Yes, sometime things need to be mandated for the public good. Doesn't make it fascist, or whatever term you'd prefer to apply. If I'm asked to write a computer program that I don't think is reasonable for me to write, I either write it or resign.
If I'm asked to go work in a country (Saudi Arabia) where women are treated like crap (I'm a guy) and Jews are unwelcome (I'm Jewish), I either go or lose my job. I lost my job.
Say hi to Ayn for me.

:loveya:

That's sweet. I really am nasty and evil, but only to the deserving, and that's not you. Your underhanded hate and imprecations of me are juvenile though.

You're probably old enough to understand Ayn Rand and why that would be insulting then. You're also old enough to understand that either you sleep with me or you lose your job is does not make it right to accept on the face of it, as your other fatalistic musings indicate.

You can take a moral stand AND keep your job. If you, oh programmer, worked in a hospital in the IT department in a building that never sees patients, is it appropriate for me to force you to get a vaccination? What if it was the HPV vax for males, meant to control cervical cancer, and you're a dude who sleeps with dudes? Is that okay? It's going to save lives, but do you need it? What if you already had H1N1 pre-vax? Do you still need to take the vaccination, working in IT in a different building, for the hospital?

Ayn says hi back, but she's not looking as good as you remember.

Here's your raise: you get to keep your job.

lordy the stupidity on this thread is truly overwhelming.

especially the people who are too dim-witted to realize that the importance of vaccinating healthcare workers, and in getting the luddites to comply.

the dumbing-down of america is proceeding at a break-neck pace.

nobody is against vaccinating healthcare workers. Reading is fundamental. I personally am against mandating it on pain of firing.

Luddites? Do you even know what that word means? Do you realize you've misused it?

but comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong suit here.

heal thyself. Comprehension is indeed my strong suit, and that's not an opinion but a fact.

Anyway, to reiterate for the terminally stupid (and there ain't no vaccine for that, clearly), I'm against a MANDATE.

Or maybe I'm FOR mandate in order for people to "be allowed" into grocery stores and department stores.

In fact, you (collective you) shouldn't "be allowed" in the hospital unless you've had a flu shot because doctors and nurses are only spreading around what you bring in.

Comprehension, my shiny perfect ass. Anyway, I guess reading is fundamental but you'd have to read past all the ad hominem bullshit spewed at me all through this thread to figure any of this out, your ad hominems included.

that's just fine. Fuck the Hippocratic oath.

"Primum Non Nocere"

That's why it shouldn't be mandated, but STRONGLY ENCOURAGED. And most health care workers comply, if only because they are surrounded by icky sick people and don't want to get sick.

We all give a damn about people getting sick, we just differ in how far we're willing to put choice apart from the solution.

The difference is that almost everyone I've interacted with has responded with an ad hominem and / or some moral judgment of my character, and that's just high school.

Thank you for being a voice of reason here and not attracting as much lightning as I seem to.

health care workers to get vaccinated except through threat of firing, and there's no acknowledgment of the risk, though slight in most healthy people, of vaccination. I just can't believe there isn't a better way to accomplish the goal than through firing. At the end of the day, though, no one should be forced to put something into their bodies they don't want there.

It's nothing like that.

Wearing a mask in the OR prevents airborne germs from getting into you and you spewing them into the patient. YOu can get the flu vaccine but that still doesn't stop you from spreading it or carrying it.

Their patients come first. Too damn bad. Whiny fucks.

is I'm willing to bet that nearly everyone posting in this thread washes their hands, uses sanitizer and probably has had the flu shot, and if they didn't before now probably will.

Ironic they had to burn a fellow DU'er at the stake first, but hey, that's what many villagers do to the monster in the castle, or just for entertainment.

:hide:

bring on some more torches and pitchforks folks, I ain't dead yet. :P

The mandate is ridiculous.

Vaccination also does not stop one from being a carrier of the virus. It just prevents you from getting sick. That's whay, in hospitals, we have a thing called universal precautions.

The flu scare is just another excuse for these hospitals to chase these nurses out of work and hire someone else at a much lower rate. It's occuring across the board.

the crowd sniffs a new monster, heads to other castle, brandishing torches and pitchforks.

egads this thread is too much.

Not to mention allergies as they relate to vaccinations.

and by the way... my opinion purely, if you are a front line health worker, whether a lowly EMT or a doctor, roll up your sleeve... or stop being a front line health care worker.

Typhoid Marys are not needed in the profession and many of these workers are IDIOTS...

You'd think anti vaxers would only exist outside the medical sciences, but it goes to prove some folks are willfully ignorant, even when engaged IN THE PROFESSION.

Oh and when I was a medic, I got the vax every year... as soon as I could. Back then not for me but for my patient's sake.

or carrying it. It just produces antibodies so you can fight it.

Folks that have allergies to eggs are also contraindicated from receiving it.

Then again, this more democratic party anti labor bullshit. What this really is about is driving down wages for nurses. Not disease transmission. Just makes it easier to fire the nurse and hire another to do his/her job at a lower rate of pay.

and if we went that route, how many other vaccines do you want NOT to give or receive?

As to people with counter indications... they are far few and far between and they will and should get excused.

But this is comming under the Declaration of a National Health Emergency, issued back in March, not called back... and there is a GOOD REASON for that.

Yeah I know, lets not get vaccines against Hepatitis, and keep the little tykes from getting their shots too.

:banghead:

PUBLIC HEALTH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PARTY.

and your conclusion, is stupid (Not to mention misinformed and VERY dangerous) .

Vaccinations allow you to build up antibodies to fight off infection. They do not prevent you from being a carrier. A negative titre for Hep B, H1N1, Rubella etc does not stop you from spreading the disease to someone else. It just prevents you from getting sick. I've studied this stuff for years and am light years ahead of you on this stuff;




THE CHAIN OF DISEASE TRANSMISSIONa. Each case of communicable disease is the result of an orderly progression ina series of events. This series of events may be described as a three-link chain, eachlink representing a factor essential to the transmission of disease. These links (figure 1-1)are:(1)The source of the disease (reservoir)(2) The means by which the disease may be transmitted (mode oftransmission).(3)A susceptible person (host).Figure 1-1.The chain of disease transmissionb. If anyone of the links in the chain is broken, the disease cannot spread.c. Infection is the entry and multiplication of any infectious agent in the body.The period of time between infection and onset of signs and symptoms of disease iscalled the incubation period. However, infection does not always result in recognizabledisease. Frequently the body has enough resistance or immunity to prevent diseasedevelopment, in which event a carrier state results. A carrier can transmit disease inthe same way as can a case (a person who is ill) with the same infection. Since thecarrier is infected but is not sick, the carrier often goes undiscovered as a source ofdisease, or else is discovered only through very thorough clinical and laboratory effort.When an infectious agent strikes a community or military unit, its presence quite likelywill be manifested variously in the affected individuals by all grades of severity, from thecarrier state, through the mild disease states, the typical disease states, to the mostsevere and possibly fatal reactions. This broad gradation of manifestation of theinfectious process in a group is called the spectrum of infection. Within this spectrum,there are always some cases that are so mild that they are not seen by the medicalservice, while others are entirely asymptomatic. These subclinical or asymptomaticinfections, which are usually unreported, constitute what is commonly referred to as the"iceberg effect." They, like the portion of an iceberg that is under the water, are unseen;therefore, their danger is not fully realized by the public. In preventive medicine,MD01511-5

http://www.tpub.com/content/armymedical/MD0151/MD01510010.htm

of course you will have to continue to use basic hand washing and the rest of the story... but whatever, you still do not understand why LEGALLY they can.

Oh and as to vaccines countered by egg allergies. Federal mandates like this, regardless of where in the world, have exceptions to those with allergies.

I am sure you also did not know that.

Jesus age, some of us actually helped write disaster plans... which included... you guessed it pandemics from oh flu... bird or piggie.

You think people just woke yesterday to this threat?

By the way, if you do not believe it can get draconian, pick up a HISTORY book and read on the 1918 epidemic and the measures taken by state officers. Thank your lucky stars it has not mutated... or you can bet your sweet potatoes that the rest of the plan would be en force RIGHT NOW.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Okie dokie, welcome to my ignore list...

That's the medical terminology.

at the local strip club. If they dont like the reasonable law they can quit. Wife works in medicine and takes these yearly.

the same as wearing a certain shirt, in order to keep your job?

has to be up to date on immunizations and hepatitis. Or she has no job. If she does not like it she can figure out how to pay back all the student loans doing some other job.

that they get whatever new vaccine the state suddenly decides is mandatory. While I believe the state and facilities should do whatever they need to to ENCOURAGE flu vaccination, I don't think termination is fair if the employees weren't hired with the understanding that yearly flu shots were a condition of employment. They can grandfather that in with new hires. I took the flu shot when working as a nurse, but I wasn't threatened with termination for not doing it. I just don't agree that that is a good way to handle people who are already on the job.

people that have allergies to eggs can not get it.

That's why there were never any mandates for it.

the authority to do this comes from the National Health Emergency Declaration. This is a FEDERAL declaration and that FEDERAL declaration includes immunizations.

Yes, they could, IN THEORY require that every citizen of this country get the vax. They are doing what MAKES sense and require front line health care workers.

Now if they don't like it... go look for another job. If anybody should get it is health care workers.

Oh and I take it from our avatar that you were in the AF... guess what group is getting it mandated? Force protection is not that different from public health by the by.

You may not agree, but when it comes to health care it can and it does get pretty draconian...

Oh and as a former Medic... I happen to agree... I had to protect myself and my patients... and I got why I needed to get those shots... so there.

Try again.

Also, read above. I don't think you should be lecturing folks on disease transmission.

:banghead:

to get a certain vaccination, it shouldn't be forced upon you as a condition to keep your job. We are largely talking about private sector workers, not state or federal. Most will get the vaccines voluntarily, because it's simply the best thing to do for both patient protection AND personal protection. But if someone already employed has concerns or fears over the vaccine (because no vaccination is completely risk-free), or simply can't receive it for medical history reasons, there should be other arrangements made other than termination.

based on the national health emergency declaration.

That said, my opinion purely, yes all medicines have a risk... even Tylenol (it kills due to liver failure, usually with macro doses, but rarely it has with a recommended dose, as in very rarely).

But medical personnel, UNLESS (and the exception are in the emergency declaration because they have to have it, are not excused during a health emergency.

IF they wanted to do this (and if this sucker had mutated the way the 1918 cousin did)... I am willing to bet martial law and mandatory vaccination of the civilian population most affected.

Not that most people realize this, but since there was that declaration in March, we are not in normal conditions... it is the equivalent, until it is lifted, of martial law.

Yes I helped write one of those for another country... and they have so many things in common it is not even funny... and the range of authorities that are not standard, given to local, state and federal authorities by that declaration usually make civil libertarians go WTF? It comes down, as one person in the business put it, your freedoms vs herd immunity. Well, herd immunity in this case comes first. As I told another poster, thank your lucky stars this thing has not mutated... for a hint of where they could have gone, read on how 1918 was treated, including mandatory curfews and stay at home for the sake of the group enforced by local health officers with Guard Troops as back up. Did I mention the mass graves and in a few cases burning of bodies?

to fire the minority of private sector health workers who are already employed and for whatever reason feel (or know) that they cannot or should not get vaccinated. And since it's a state-wide mandate, they can't find work in their field again without moving to another state. There should be other arrangements in place to deal with the effects of this mandate, other than simply termination, which is certainly easiest for hospitals, but not necessarily cost-effective.

by refusing this.

On the grounds that the ones who don't are a danger to society.

You can tell the up and coming generation has little respect for concepts of society vs. individual liberty.

Witness the proliferation of Family Guy avatars sported by guys spouting nonsense about how other people are entitled to behave just like them or suffer the consequences...

Just read this on Google News Saturday AM.

mark