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News from FactCheck re: The Swine flu vaccine:

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010)

CaliforniaPeggy

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:19 PM
Original message

News from FactCheck re: The Swine flu vaccine:

Inoculation Misinformation
Claims that the "swine flu" vaccine is dangerous range from seriously overblown to flat-out false.

October 19, 2009
Summary

Wild rumors are flying about the newly developed vaccine for pandemic influenza H1N1, also known as "swine flu." We’ve seen e-mails stating that the vaccine is tainted with antifreeze or Agent Orange, causes Gulf War syndrome, or has killed U.S. Navy sailors. One says the vaccine is an "evil depopulation scheme." The claims are nearly pure bunk, with only trace amounts of fact.

If you are the sort who trusts anonymous e-mails more than you do doctors and experts from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, you may wish to stop reading now. For others, here are the facts as stated by the best authorities we can find:

* The vaccine does have some risks – the same risks as the seasonal flu vaccine. Except for the virus, it is functionally identical to the vaccine that’s given every year.
* The multidose formulation of the vaccine contains thimerosal, which prevents contamination. Some have accused thimerosal of causing developmental disorders in children, but scientific evidence doesn’t support this.
* The vaccine does not contain squalene, which has been accused – also without good evidence – of causing Gulf War syndrome.
* There’s no reason to believe that a vaccination would cause Guillain-Barre syndrome. GBS was associated with several hundred flu vaccinations in 1976, but there’s been no evidence of an association since then, despite close monitoring.
* While it’s true that a Navy vessel was prevented from deploying because of a flu outbreak, that had nothing to do with the vaccine, which hadn’t been developed at the time. And there were no deaths aboard the ship, as some e-mails claim.
* Vaccination is not mandatory for the public nationally or in any state, although New York requires that health care providers get vaccinated. Massachusetts legislation granting standby powers in case of health emergencies does not require vaccination or establish quarantine "camps."

The complete article at link:
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/inoculation-misinformation/

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Zoeisright

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message

1. Gee, actual facts!

Whodathunkit?

:thumbsup:

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #1

3. Thank you!

This group is well known for getting the facts.

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Ian David

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:25 PM
Response to Original message

2. I'm going to unrec because there is a waiting list.

If you need to be convinced to be vaccinated, you're not genetically fit to survive flu season.

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #2

4. And this is my fault...how?

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Ian David

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #4

5. Not punishing you. Just don't think we should talk idiots into vaccinating this year.

The bottleneck this year is SUPPLY, not compliance.

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TZ

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #5

31. Yes we need to Ian David.

Anti-Vaxx loons endanger people who medically CAN'T get vaccines, like my sister with Lupus.

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Ian David

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #31

36. True. But the bottleneck now is not compliance. It's supply.

There are only x number of vaccine doses available.

Convincing anti-vax nutjobs to get vaccinated will not increase the number of vaccinated people in the population this year.

It will only increase the number of STUPID vaccinated people in the population this year.

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Ian David

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #31

37. Self-delete (duplicate) n/t

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 09:34 AM by Ian David

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edc

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Tue Oct-20-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #5

99. Amen brother

We already have kids in my town coming down with Swine Flu, more each day. The cavalry is way late to the rescue. We should have been vaccinating people in late August or early September for this. This debacle goes far beyond malfeasance. While not a supporter of the Chinese Communist regime, it does have certain appealing qualities. In China, for instance, people responsible for this public health failure would be shot in the back of the head and their survivors billed for the bullets. Alas! the essential drawbacks of even pretend representative democracy.

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MrsMatt

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Wed Oct-21-09 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #99

195. The H1N1 flu hit earlier than

the seasonal flu.

It's an entirely new strain, and considering the length of time it takes to create a vaccine, they did a stellar job in having it available now.

http://www.influenza.com/Index.cfm?FA=Science_History_6

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edc

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Thu Oct-22-09 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #195

227. OK

The first cases were reported in March and five of the largest pharmaceutical companies are manufacturing vaccines, so I stand corrected. However, a doctor told me yesterday that he figures by the time the vaccines arrive so many people will already be infected that it probably won't much matter.

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Trekologer

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Thu Oct-22-09 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #227

236. It takes approximately 6 months to grow and cultivate flu vaccines

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33420826/ns/health-cold_and_flu/

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edc

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Fri Oct-23-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #236

247. H1N1 vaccine is here now.

The inoculation du jour is injection for seasonal flu and live virus mist for H1N1. I did just that today with my kids. Many people will pass on the mist because they fear negative reactions to it. I hope they're wrong. I don't know what to believe, but I"ve just drawn one card to a straight on the health of my children. The odds are hugely in my favor. I should win. If not I'll never forgive myself. There is much less stress playing far worse odds for nothing more valuable than money in high stakes poker any day.

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Patchuli

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #5

164. That's ice cold

You got a superiority thing going on?

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girl gone mad

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Tue Oct-20-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #2

17. Huh?

"If you need to be convinced to be vaccinated, you're not genetically fit to survive flu season."

That's not very reasonable of you. There are plenty of valid reasons to avoid flu vaccination, including the growing body of evidence that flu vaccines offer very limited protection against infection and morbidity.

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa011604a.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/health/02flu.html

http://www.pizaazz.com/2009/02/06/does-flu-vaccine-work/

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uppityperson

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #17

23. dry dry dry humor, sarcasm. eom

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 03:13 AM by uppityperson

if a joke has to be explained, it loses the humor part.

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ipaint

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #17

27. Every single one of those articles recommends the flu shots be given to certain high risk

population groups, that they not be abandoned, and a 30% prevention rate is better than 0%.

Combine that with the op's info and the current uneducated vaccine hysteria outbreak is pure bunk.

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Ian David

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #17

28. If you say so. I won't try to change your mind. You go and do whatever you think best. n/t

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HughMoran

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #2

91. Another moronic post

You have a habit of this!

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CreekDog

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:34 PM
Response to Original message

6. Thank you, even though this shouldn't be necessary

:hi:

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #6

10. My dear CreekDog!

You'd think it shouldn't and I agree...

But there's so much controversy!

:hi:

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nadinbrzezinski

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:35 PM
Response to Original message

7. I'll recommend, FACTS

quite refreshing by the way

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #7

13. I appreciate the rec!

Aren't facts refreshing?

I thought so too...

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elocs

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Tue Oct-20-09 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #13

25. Choice is refreshing also. I simply choose not to be vaccinated.

It has nothing to do with fear of the vaccine. I have never had a flu shot and probably the last time I had the flu was 30 years ago.

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TZ

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #25

34. You do realize you've probably made many people sick with the flu right?

Just because you don't feel sick doesn't mean you aren't contagious. Alot of people can't get the vaccine for medical reasons and are very vulnerable. People die because of the SELFISH choice not to be vaccinated.

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elocs

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #34

39. That is pure supposition on your part and you know that full well,

but why pass up an opportunity to be self righteous?

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alarimer

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Fri Oct-23-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #39

254. It is not supposition; it is true

Anti-vaxxers ARE FUCKING IDIOTS. All of the them. Selfish idiots who put people at risk. People like this young boy who has leukemia who cannot be vaccinated. Yet he is at risk because of idiots like you who refuse to vaccinate their kids.

http://www.doublex.com/section/kids-parenting/your-unvaccinated-child-could-kill-my-son

In my opinion vaccinations for healthy people need to be mandatory and severe fines if they are not done. At the very least, the unvaccinated need to be ostracized and isolated by everyone else.

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Techn0Girl

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #34

77. You are wrong - completely wrong

You can NOT be contagious without having the flu. If your body fights it prior to the point where you show ANY symptoms then you are NOT shedding virus because you do NOT have an appreciable viral load in your body. Period.

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NJmaverick

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #77

83. Your statement is completely and utterly FALSE

Adults are contagious 1 full day before being symptomatic and children up to 4 or 5 days. Those are facts and can not be altered by your opinions or desires. PERIOD!

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Techn0Girl

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Wed Oct-21-09 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #83

189. Yes this is true

But it is not what you said before.
What you said before was that if you could be contagious without ever knowing about it. That is a false statement. Perhaps I misunderstood because at some point you will will fall ill and then you will know you are contagious.

And what will you do then?
You will do what everyone has always done. You will go home , rest and keep away from the public and thus prevent the dreaded Swine-Flu-Zombie-Apocalypse.

Just like we always have done.

And if everyone practices simple sanitary measures like appropriate hand washing and covering one's mouth when you sneeze then that will likely do a lot more good overall then a vaccine that is only 30% effective (give or take) and one that only perhaps 20-30% of the overall population at best will receive.

It's not the Apocalypse. It's just a flu.

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Grinchie

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #34

136. How do you know? Your statement is complete nonsense

People die from Vaccines too. In fact more people are damaged and disabled for life dure to Vaccines than die, but I guess quality of life means nothing to you, as long as the Politicians and Pharmaceutical companies continue to rake in their Billions of dollars in revenue, and make it look like we have such a caring loving Government at the same time.

Meanwhile, we eat poisoned food, drink tainted water, eat Genetically Modified Food, breathe polluted air, and have never seen a living virus, despite the fact that we can create and manipulate nanoparticles with Atomic Microscopy.

No me Vaccine Cheerleaders.. The business makes too much money for the truth to come out, and that's why this vaccine has the weight of Propaganda behind it as heavily as that which supports GMO Food.

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bejamin wood

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #34

165. We pass around shit all day long.

What planet are you from?

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Ian David

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #25

38. Good. I'm glad you're not being vaccinated.

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 09:37 AM by Ian David

I hope you spend a lot of time with your family inside confined spaces.

Be sure to visit grandma in the nursing home.

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elocs

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #38

43. Wow, I bet you are feeling particularly clever now.

Maybe we could eliminate choice and have armed medical squads going from door to door forcing everyone to be vaccinated. Wouldn't that be special? You could be the leader of your local vaccine police.

Fortunately I have a special place where I can put self righteous people like you where I never have to read their "cleverness" again.

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Ian David

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #43

44. Nope. Why thwart Natural Selection? n/t

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cwydro

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #43

46. I'm with you elocs.

I have never seen such hysteria on DU, mostly because everyone is buying into the media frenzy.

All these DUers who usually think they are too smart to fall for media inflation...lol.

Let's check in at the end of this nonsense and point out how we are not dead yet.

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uppityperson

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Tue Oct-20-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #46

61. Which media frenzy?people are dying and more may die or vx's will kill you?

Kind of difficult for those who died to check in. Rather like saying we all survived childhood diseases so why vaccinate for them?

If I die, I will ask MrUP to check in and pm you directly and let you know. Or maybe my ghost will haunt DU and cause glitches for yrs.

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cwydro

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #61

64. Oh, you will still be here!

I did survive chicken pox, German measles, and red measles. My sis had mumps but I never got it.

I thank god for the polio vaccine. Back in the day we took it in a sugar cube.

I was also vaccinated for smallpox as a child.

The flu frenzy I just see differently. My opinion, nothing else.

Btw, (and off the subject) wasn't it you who had that link to Africacam some years ago? I have never been able to get that back up, no matter how I search.

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uppityperson

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #64

68. I was watching last week, links... My cousin's 21 yr old kid died from influenza aftermath.

http://www.africam.com/wildlife/index.php
I clicked on Nkorho Pan and it came up on popup right now. Actually is on that mainpage also.

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texastoast

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #64

146. Here you go

http://www.africam.com/wildlife/umo0

This is my favorite spot. It's quiet now. Give it a while to load if you have dial up.

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #25

54. Ditto!

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Jakes Progress

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #25

78. I'm not afraid of rutabagas.

I have never eaten a rutabaga and the last time I got mumps was more than thirty years ago. So I guess avoiding rutabagas is a good way to avoid mumps.

Sheesh.

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texastoast

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #25

143. Tritto

Just not going to get vaccinated. Never have. And still, DU has to put up with me. Why is everyone so afraid of this particular flu? Could it be the media hype? Ooogie booogie! Be skeered!

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GirlinContempt

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #143

167. Because it's killing people?

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TwilightGardener

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #167

209. Flu has ALWAYS killed people. Many thousands, every year.

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GirlinContempt

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Thu Oct-22-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #209

238. So far it's killing MORE people, and more healthy people

as opposed to the immune-suppressed and the elderly.

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Butch350

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #167

210. So does bullets, cars, planes, snakes, spiders, sharks...etc

You'd better get busy putting on your kevlar long johns!

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texastoast

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Wed Oct-21-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #167

212. Flu always kills people

Vaccines kill people. People get flu from vaccines. Life kills people.

That a few weeks ago ONE DEATH in China from this flu made international news is just ridiculous. Why now? Why the frenzy now over this mild flu?

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TwilightGardener

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Wed Oct-21-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #212

214. Well, let's just be honest here: The increased concern over THIS flu

has to do with: 1) its highly contagious properties among adults younger than 50, who haven't been exposed to similar flus before and are thus very vulnerable.
2) It's killing more of the healthy younger and middle aged adult population, rather than only the chronically ill and elderly, who customarily succumb to the usual yearly flu strains by the thousands.

The affected population is what's really key in concerns over this particular flu, let's all acknowledge that. People weren't as terrified when yearly seasonal flu was only taking out grannies in nursing homes. It's personal now!

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texastoast

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Wed Oct-21-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #214

226. Well perhaps

it's a good lesson in compassion, then.

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #25

150. It's okay lots of people let fear control them.

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Statistical

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:38 PM
Response to Original message

8. Boo... facts suck. Anti-vax hysteria is so much more fun. All the cool kids are anit-vaxers

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #8

11. ROFLMAO!

:rofl:

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era veteran

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Wed Oct-21-09 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #8

197. Cool kids

That is a fact. I work with a lot of college students who are convinced they would be getting chipped. Too bad since they are in that dangerous age group.

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tandot

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:39 PM
Response to Original message

9. I'll get it as soon as it is available. I have a 5 month old infant.

Thanks for posting the facts. I didn't need convincing, though :)

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #9

12. Always glad to shed some light on a controversial topic...

Good luck getting some!

Have fun with your baby!

:hi:

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Oregone

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Tue Oct-20-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #9

22. You vaxing your baby?

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tandot

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #22

33. He is 5 month and infants under 6 month will not get the flu shot.

He was also born prematurely at 3.5 lbs and is still about 3 lbs below the average weight for his age. I'll discuss having him vaccinated at his 6 month check-up next month.

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Oregone

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #33

42. Mine is the same age

But will be six months in Dec. Mine is far over weight. Have fun with your newborn.

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betharina

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #9

137. yep. 3 month old here--will be vaccinated as soon as i can. nt

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tiptoe

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message

14. k & r n/t.

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tiptoe

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Mon Oct-19-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message

15. dupe/delete

Edited on Mon Oct-19-09 11:45 PM by tiptoe

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usregimechange

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Tue Oct-20-09 12:32 AM
Response to Original message

16. kick

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amborin

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Tue Oct-20-09 12:51 AM
Response to Original message

18. K & R

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TreasonousBastard

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Tue Oct-20-09 01:47 AM
Response to Original message

19. They won't believe it, but it's always good to...

get the facts out.

And speaking of facts, here's the CDC site with the skinny on the flu:

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/

Good stuff there, but a some of it is a little too technical for the tinfoil brigade to deal with.

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Tue Oct-20-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #19

21. Thanks for the link!

Lots of useful info there.

I felt this thread would be helpful...

Glad you agree!

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Oregone

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Tue Oct-20-09 01:55 AM
Response to Original message

20. Mine will contain squalene

"The product from GlaxoSmithKline, Canada's sole provider of H1N1 vaccine, called Arepanrix, uses an adjuvant called AS03, which consists of squalene (shark liver oil), DL-alpha-tocopherol and polysorbate 80. There are claims that squalene, part of the adjuvant used in the anthrax vaccine, was to blame for Gulf War syndrome, but the evidence is weak."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/science/reader-questions-on-h1n1-answered/article1329448/

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TZ

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #20

30. Oh christ give it up

.01% of a vaccine is the adjuvent. Plus a vaccine is shed by the spleen in about 10 days which is why some needs boosters. Stop with the fucking fear mongering.
And there is NO evidence that adjuvents were responsible for gulf war syndrome outside of the loony anti-vaxx's fringe campaign.
BTW all the adjuvent does is make the vaccine more potent, its never ever a free floating chemical like some "believe".

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Oregone

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #30

41. Give what up?

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 10:52 AM by Oregone

I stated a fact and quoted a news article. The Canadian version is not the same as the American one, so the following doesn't apply universally: "The vaccine does not contain squalene".

I made no judgment on that. Ease up on the coffee.

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gkhouston

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #20

35. Actually not. I've contacted the Little Gray Men and asked them to put a

Special Surprise in your dose. :evilgrin:

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SidDithers

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #20

51. Non-adjuvanted may be available if you want it...

Is the Government ordering non-adjuvanted vaccine? Who will it be recommended for and why?

The Government of Canada plans to purchase a small quantity of non-adjuvanted H1N1 vaccine (approx. 1.8 million doses) as part of its total order of 50.4 M doses.

The purchase of a small quantity of non-adjuvanted vaccine is a precautionary measure for pregnant women as no clinical data of the safety of adjuvanted vaccine in this group is available.

In these cases, should a non-adjuvanted vaccine prove to be effective, it may be the preferred option. The WHO has indicated that it has no special concerns about the safety of adjuvanted H1N1 vaccines in general. The WHO has also strongly recommended that pregnant women be immunized against the H1N1 flu virus, even if no non-adjuvanted vaccine is available.

.

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte/h1n1/faq_rg_h1n1-eng.php

Sid

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Oregone

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Tue Oct-20-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #51

53. Im not sure they will hand out the non-adjuvated one like candy

Id imagine they will take firm measures to save it for kids and pregnant women, which is fine. Honestly, I don't care. If I get all messed up Ill just stop working and live off the system, so the notion doesn't bother me.

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uppityperson

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:15 AM
Response to Original message

24. Person today told me not getting vx because those in power want to decrease population

and are using vaccines to do so. I think they think there is something in vaccines that will kill people, hoping 1/2 people in the world get vx and die for some reason.

I really didn't know what to say and managed to not burst out laughing. It is really sad.

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LeftishBrit

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #24

49. And if the people in power want to decrease the population...

why is there so much opposition by so many powerful people to birth control and abortion?

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stray cat

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:37 AM
Response to Original message

26. 1/2 of my employees are out sick with H1N1 -

This is tough on small businesses. And my employees are in their 20s so the flu is hitting them hard.

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FourScore

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:09 AM
Response to Original message

29. Great post. Thank you. n/t

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TZ

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message

32. Thank you.

People are stupidly more afraid of the vaccine then they are of H1N1 which is probably going to result in unnecessary flu deaths.

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #32

40. You're welcome, my dear TZ!

I thought it might be helpful to come out with the facts...

There's so much hysteria about the vaccine. It's nuts.

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existentialist

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:17 AM
Response to Original message

45. "trace amounts of fact"

Nicely written. Appears to be good reporting, and proof that good reporting is not inconsistent with a sense of humor.

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neverforget

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:30 AM
Response to Original message

47. My 5 year old daughter has the swine flu right now. She had a temperature

of 103.7 at the doctor's office yesterday and that was day 5. We were going to get her vaccinated next week. Too late. I recommend getting the vaccine.

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Robb

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Tue Oct-20-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #47

59. Holy cow.

My thoughts are with your kiddo. That's a high temperature. Best for a speedy recovery.

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neverforget

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Wed Oct-21-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #59

171. Thank you for your thoughts. It's 24 hours later and she still has a fever

around 101. This crap can last 2 weeks.

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kimmerspixelated

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #47

82. My daughter had the flu , too.

102.9 closely watched, administered Oil of Oregano!... and I never intend to go without some strong antivirals in the house. Oil of Oregano helps squash viruses trmendously. Educate and be prepared.There are many other things you can do as well. I'd hate to think the only way out is through mainstream medicine. She is fine now. Of course I would have taken her to the doctor had her temp been too high.

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harun

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Wed Oct-21-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #47

222. How did you know it was swine flu?

Not saying I don't believe you, in case you think I am asking for that reason. Just curious how they are determining it right now.

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colsohlibgal

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message

48. This Needs Wide Circulation

I love Bill Maher's show but he is getting way out there in quack land for being ultra paranoid about vaccines and risk, he needs to see these kind of facts. he isn't even convinced they work, despite acknowledging that Polio was virtually wiped out by vaccines. He was going off so much on this Friday night that his panel called him on it and he clearly got angry and defensive with them. It was awkward until Gary Shandling came on and got them all falling on the floor laughing, his shtick is still so funny, I was snarfing up my pepsi.

I'm a big time conspiracy loving gal, I have always thought the Warren Commission's report was shoddy fiction at best etc, but I don't think there is anything nefarious going on with flu vaccines, I think in this case they do have our best interest in mind. I get the regular flu shot each year (and haven't had any serious flu since I've done this) and I'll get the swine flu one as well. There is plenty to be paranoid about but this isn't worthy of it.

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kimmerspixelated

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #48

86. I have to disagree.

I was glad to see Bill Maher bring it up. He knows how vaccines work. His point is that, one, it is overhyped for Big Pharma profits, and two, injecting yourself with crap the body does not recognize and is toxic is ludicrous. WHY CAN't they make GREEN Vaccines!?????

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SidDithers

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:49 AM
Response to Original message

50. Highly recommended...

Great post.

Sid

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Kadie

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Tue Oct-20-09 12:00 PM
Response to Original message

52. Thank you so much for posting this CaliforniaPeggy.

My kids are getting regular flu shots this week, and I am getting ready to talk to their Dr. about swine flu vac. I have been a little nervous (sometimes I think I read too much information) :) I get confused and worried.

K&R

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Tue Oct-20-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #52

57. Glad I could help, my dear Kadie...

More info is a help!

I hope your kids stay flu-free!

:hug:

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message

55. Like religion, this is a matter of personal choice and personal responsibility.

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 12:12 PM by earcandle

I don't think people should take it.
I don't think people should die for religious reasons either.
But I do think it is a matter of personal choice.

Some people take good care of their bodies and have strong
immune systems.
They don't need to take it.  

If we lived in a less political enviroment with a more
trustworthy medical system
perhaps it would be easier to make decisions like this for
your family.

Why have the military been involved in medical decisions since
1790? 
why is it customary to have naval officers involved?

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trotsky

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Tue Oct-20-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #55

56. The big difference here is that your "personal choice" affects others.

People who have health issues that prevent them from receiving the vaccine rely on the rest of us to build an immunized "buffer" around them. This is also known as "herd immunity." (If enough members of a population are immune to a disease, there aren't enough vectors for it to spread effectively.)

Some people take good care of their bodies and have strong immune systems.

Yup, and some of those people have died from H1N1. It is pure foolishness to think that because you eat well and exercise, no virus can take you down.

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Grinchie

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #56

138. You want to get rid of vectors? Dump that bucket of standing water

You'll oprevent more illness that way instead of injecting foreign material deep within your tissue and circumventing your own immune system

The only herd immunity around here is caused by the placebo effect that causes flu like symptom all by itself... The flu shot.

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trotsky

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #138

147. Well, I see you've got your impenetrable ignorance shield up.

If only that could block viruses.

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D23MIURG23

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #138

162. Yeah, because that's how they got rid of polio and smallpox...

oh wait... nevermind.

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Grinchie

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #162

176. Those I happen to agree with, but not at birth.

I have memories of when we received those immunizations, at age 5.

Additionally, Smallpox in my day was a skin prick, not a few Ml's of thimerosol preserved dead viral and chicken protein, injected deep in my body.

The cheerleaders here have this strange idea that Doctors actually know how all of this crap actually works, when in reality they just get lucky because of the amazing ability of the body to fight of disease and contaminants.

They basically just have very good odds, but sometimes they roll craps, and it's the random individual that pays the price.

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trotsky

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Thu Oct-22-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #176

237. Polio vaccine isn't given "at birth." Smallpox has been eradicated...

and vaccines are no longer given for it.

Where the heck are you getting your BLATANTLY FALSE information from?

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Name removed

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Thu Oct-22-09 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #237

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Robb

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Tue Oct-20-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #55

60. Bullshit. Utter fucking bullshit.

When a three year-old with an egg allergy who could not get the vaccine dies because you made a choice not to get it, because you thought your immune system had anything to fight off a NOVEL virus, I hope your tinfoil hat keeps you warm at night.

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earth mom

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Tue Oct-20-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #60

63. Quit with the bullshit intimidation, derision and fear mongering. Your post is disgusting!!!

:puke:

FYI: You are NOT the fucking decider and you have NO FUCKING RIGHT to tell anyone what they can or can not do with their own bodies!!!!! :grr:

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rd_kent

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #63

66. What is disgustiong about pointing out a fact?

The fact being that those who CHOOSE not to get vaccinated put everyone else at risk.

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earth mom

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #66

67. It's fear mongering and intimidation and nothing but. nt

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rd_kent

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #67

70. It is? In what way? Do you dispute the fact that those that choose not to vaccinate place others

at risk? How is that intimidation and fear-mongering?

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Posteritatis

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #70

72. Facts that make the fact-free uncomfortable are eeeeeebil! (nt)

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texastoast

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #70

144. I've been exposed

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 08:42 PM by texastoast

And I work with people who are at higher risk (very fearful diabetics who happen general Bush fear believers). The time for me to pass on my cooties to the less immune and for the less immune to contract the flu has passed now.

They haven't gotten the flu. The likelihood of someone getting it from someone who has merely been exposed is extremely small. Probably less than getting run over by a train.

Life is risky.

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blondeatlast

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #70

206. It is intimidation and fear-mongering because it is an unpleasant fact that the tinhatters

don't want to have to defend--because they have no defense for it.

I'm at-risk and so is my son. We choose where we go during flu season VERY carefully--and no, tinhatters, that doesn't mean we have no life. We just have a life free of tinhatnuttery.

Hmm--it actually works out rather well, now that I think of it.

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Grinchie

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Thu Oct-22-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #70

240. You buying that Herd Immunity BS that the Pharmaceutical companies are pushing?

Your Herd Immunity rhetoric is nothing more that bullying tactics and Propaganda from a million dollar industry that partial science, and partial Placebo effect.

The argument is so flawed, that it's incredible that you guys have bought it. In reality, the people that refuse to take the vaccine are most at risk, and if it is their choice, then it all falls on their shoulders.

You are being taught that you are no longer qualified to manage your own health, and basic the Corporations now have a right to inject toxic material Deep within your tissue, where it will remain forever.

On the other hand, I choose to let my immune system do it's job, and I help it along by eating Organic, hand prepared food, drinking clean, distilled water, breathing air charged with Ozone and Negative Ions, and provide for the missing vitamins and supplements that are reduced in the modern diet.

I'll take my chances, simply because every Vaccine carries a risk and a chance for disease or damage.

4700 people worldwide have died in this so called pandemic.. 4700 out of 6,000,000,000 people. Do the math.

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Grinchie

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Thu Oct-22-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #70

241. Dupe

Edited on Thu Oct-22-09 09:21 PM by Grinchie

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Fri Oct-23-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #67

249. If you are intimidated by facts I suggest you find another venue.

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Grinchie

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Thu Oct-22-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #66

242. Care to point out just who would be at risk? The Vaccine makers Pocketbook?

Your talking point is pretty weak.

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LeftishBrit

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Fri Oct-23-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #242

250. Um, people who get preventable diseases?

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kimmerspixelated

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #63

90. Tou Fucking Che'!

These guys are batshit crazy, aren't they?

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NJmaverick

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #63

92. There is something seriously wrong with a view point that finds FACTS disgusting

IMNHO

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LeftishBrit

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Fri Oct-23-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #63

252. So is the fearmongering about vaccines.

'FYI: You are NOT the fucking decider and you have NO FUCKING RIGHT to tell anyone what they can or can not do with their own bodies!!!!!'

He isn't. What do you think, that he's going to jump through your computer screen and punch you in the nose or something if you don't get vaccinated? He is perhaps inflicting a guilt trip - but what about all the people on the other side who imply that anyone who *supports* vaccines is a pharma shill, or uncaring about autistic children, or actively trying to harm children? That is also inflicting a guilt trip!

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Vilis Veritas

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #60

84. post hoc, ergo propter hoc

No proof, no facts and no proof of a direct correlation between the two events.

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #84

96. Not true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

When people choose not to get vaccinated, they promote the spread of disease.

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Vilis Veritas

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #96

160. Yes True. Re-read the post I responded to...

The author of the post stated that baby A dies as a result of n-Vaxer B not being vacinated. Baby A is not vacinated due to an egg allergy on the part of the baby. Disregard the fact that egg free vaccine exist, the direct correlation of Baby A to n-Vaxer B is not provable in the current context and at best is a poorly structured theorymon not supported by facts and based on a future state of unpredictable quanta.

Egg Free Vaccine: http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/scientists-develop-egg-free-swine-flu-vaccine_100211142.html#

Post Hoc Fallacy: "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one."

Please see the link...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

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Robb

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Wed Oct-21-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #160

223. Unvaccinated people can spread the virus. You sound foolish to suggest otherwise. nt

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Vilis Veritas

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Thu Oct-22-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #223

228. That was not what you said originally. Glad you understand your error.

Had you stated your case as such, I would have never responded. Unfortunately, you cited an unprovable bit of hogwash while spewing obscenities.

Also, your second statement is untrue as I never suggested that people forgo the vaccine. I merely pointed out your utter lack of clarity while stating an unprovable theorymon in support of your position in this debate.

Good day, Sir.

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Robb

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Thu Oct-22-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #228

230. It's exactly what I said before. You're acting very, very foolish.

"Theorymon"? :rofl:

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Vilis Veritas

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Thu Oct-22-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #230

231. I disagree.

"When a three year-old with an egg allergy who could not get the vaccine dies because you made a choice not to get it, because you thought your immune system had anything to fight off a NOVEL virus, I hope your tinfoil hat keeps you warm at night."

Does not equal

"Unvaccinated people can spread the virus."

I disagreed with your unprovable psuedo-scientific babble in order to draw some sort of DIRECT correlation from A to B - I agreed with your re-statement. We really have no other argument with each other.

I apologize for trying to police your logic.

FYI: Theorymon is a gamer term meant to imply a person with a lack of experience who uses some pseudo-scientific babble in order to supposedly support his theory as to why A results in or is a result of B. I should have used the proper form 'theory' in this instance. I apologize for this error. I will re-edit the proper form, thank you for pointing out the error.

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Robb

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Thu Oct-22-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #231

233. You can cut the irony with a knife. nt

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Grinchie

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Thu Oct-22-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #223

243. I guess you decided to omit the fact that vaccinated people can spread it too.

Edited on Thu Oct-22-09 09:26 PM by Grinchie

It's only a one sided conversation for you idiots.

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Chemisse

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Tue Oct-20-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #60

102. People should not rely upon herd immunity

Not everybody is going to get flu vaccines and those who are vulnerable and can't get the vaccine need to recognize this and act accordingly.

If your child has a deadly allergy to peanut butter, for example, you need to act to protect her rather than expect that peanut butter will be banned.

This is supposed to be a free society and that includes the freedom to make some of these basic choices.

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #102

109. Sanity I can reason with, the rest of these responses are herd derision!

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 07:48 PM by earcandle

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Grinchie

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #60

139. Nice holier than thow Strawman Robb.

Your parents guilt you much when you were a kid? Because you sure were damaged by it.

Take your Novel virus and stick it somewhere nice and visible so you can watch it squirm. You'd be upset because you could not get a blood transfusion because of O type blood too. Perhaps you better talk to your God about that whole issue. Mostly likely you'd blame somebodies blood type for your misfortune. Good luck with that.

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WillYourVoteBCounted

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #60

157. the vaccine isn't for everyone, isn't always effective, and only recommended for high risk groups

- the vaccine can reduce the chances of getting the flu by 70% to 90% in healthy adults. The vaccine may be somewhat less effective in elderly persons and very young children, but vaccination can still prevent serious complications from the flu.
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/vaccine_keyfacts.htm

-how well the vaccine works can change from year to year and vary among different groups of people.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm

-the vaccine doesn't prevent flu in everyone that gets it

-it takes about 2 weeks to be active
About 2 weeks after vaccination, antibodies that provide protection against 2009 H1N1 influenza virus infection will develop in the body

Swine-Flu Vaccine: 11 Things You Need to Know
Why many people may need two shots, and other essential information.
Sep 3, 2009 Newsweek

-the CDC is only recommending the vaccine for high risk groups

-two injections will probably be necessary, spaced three weeks apart

-even after receiving the vaccine, a person will take at least five weeks to develop full immunity.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/214847

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gkhouston

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #157

201. That Newsweek article is out of date. The CDC is recommending that

high risk groups be vaccinated first. Two doses should be necessary only for children under the age of 10. There should be enough vaccine for everyone who wishes to be vaccinated to get a shot.

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LeftishBrit

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Fri Oct-23-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #60

251. Actually, I disagree with you here, as there isn't enough vaccine for everyone

If he chooses not to get vaccinated, he *may* kill that three-year-old; but he may just as likely save the child's life, by making a dose available for the child's non-allergic older sibling, who now won't bring the illness home from school.

I do agree that the anti-vaccine propaganda is potentially dangerous, both in itself, and because it is often linked with campaigns against government provision of health care.

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kimmerspixelated

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #55

87. Excellent point!

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NJmaverick

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #55

93. Your suggestion is similar to Dick Cheney's suggestion that saving energy

was JUST a personal choice and not a social responsibility.

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #93

111. apples and oranges: Your response doesn't jive with my post. IT is a personal choice. Read

"American"  That is what I am. 

I do have personal choice.  As do you.

So choose your directions wisely and according to your own
needs.

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NJmaverick

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #111

200. Like Dick Cheney you are all about the choice, while completely ignoring

social and civic responsibility.

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LeftishBrit

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Fri Oct-23-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #55

253. Two problems...

(1) The swine flu is affecting and killing people who *do* have good immune systems; that's how it differs from most flu.

(2) Health is not *just* a matter of taking good care of your body. Certainly, people who eat a healthy diet and avoid dangerous habits such as smoking are statistically less likely to get ill than people who lead less healthy lives. But there are other things involved. People who take perfect care of their bodies can still get illnesses - through heredity, or accident, or the ravages of age, or just plain bad luck. Some of your posts sound a little too similar to the Republican/Thatcherite 'health is just a matter of personal responsibility; blame the victim' attitude.

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Swede

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Tue Oct-20-09 01:24 PM
Response to Original message

58. K&R

Way to go PEg.

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blondeatlast

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Tue Oct-20-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message

62. California Peggy, science in the public interest--what's not to rec? thanks, CP--sadly, I'm afraid

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 01:45 PM by blondeatlast

that no one will hear you past the choir, but it's grand stuff anyway.

I'm getting mine later this week--I have diabetes and am taking NO riskl with this stuff!

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rd_kent

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:30 PM
Response to Original message

65. Don't tell any of this to Bill Maher!!!!!

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #65

69. Shhh...it'll be our little secret...just between us!

:rofl:

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rd_kent

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Tue Oct-20-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #69

71. Did you see his show last Friday?

Man, he was channeling Glenn Beck there for a while!

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #71

112. YOU guys don't want Bill Mayer to have a choice? Dumb.

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CaliforniaPeggy

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #112

113. Neither one of us said that.

We just thought he was funny.

He has the same choice as anyone.

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rd_kent

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #112

120. WTF are you talking about? Who said that?

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 08:02 PM by rd_kent

and its Bill Maher the comedian were talking about, not Bill Moyers. Youre the dumb one I guess.

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Grinchie

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #69

127. Please convince your friends..

I'm sure they will thank you a great deal, until the unthinkable happens that affects you or one of your friends.

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rd_kent

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #127

134. Convince my friends of what?

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Techn0Girl

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:12 PM
Response to Original message

73. thimerosal Information

"* The multidose formulation of the vaccine contains thimerosal, which prevents contamination. Some have accused thimerosal of causing developmental disorders in children, but scientific evidence doesn’t support this."

These are facts:

Thimerosal is a mercury compound (think bad tuna, silver fillings) . IN this case it will be injected right into your body.

A press release about Mercury in Thimerosal from the National Vaccine Information Center in July of 1999 press points out that, "The cumulative effects of ingesting mercury can cause brain damage.
http://www.thimerosal-news.com/

Vaccines containing a mercury-based preservative are now largely off-limits to children younger than 3 and pregnant women in California.
http://www.naturemoms.com/blog/2006/07/14/thimerosal-banned-from-kids-vaccines/

Thimerosal has been banned around the world and for ALL of Europe - but NOT in the US (except for Minnesota).
http://www.newsmax.com/health/vaccines_cause_autism/2008/03/03/77315.html

There is a LOT of FUD from both sides on this issee. Stay informed. make informed decisions

http://www.yelp.com/topic/los-angeles-mercury-in-mascara-banned

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JoeyT

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #73

81. Wow, that's a lot of antivaxxer wankery in one post.

It was also never actually proven to cause any damage whatsoever. It was never even hinted at with research. In fact, when they removed it from childhood vaccines the autism rate stayed exactly the same. Then the nutjobs started shrieking about aluminum and a few other things.

The CDC's views on Thimerosal:
http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm

Course, we all know they're just part of the conspiracy to poison children. ;)

1: Poison children.
2: ??????
3: Profit!!!

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #81

115. So who profits from this opposite point of view, in contrast to the other point of view? You must

work for the medical industry in some capacity to keep
wankering like you do.

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JoeyT

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #115

155. Haha

There's the accusation of shill. I was wondering how long that'd take.
"You disagree with me and seem to be able to link to proof. Clearly you're being paid by someone."
Yeah, because linking to the CDC = shill for pharma.
Being a shill for BIG PHARMA!!!!!11 doesn't pay as well as you'd think.
So far I haven't gotten the first check. The bastards.
Plus I'm not sure what they'd hire an engineer for. We tend to be a little weird. We're the people you keep away from the public, not the people you send out to deal with them. ;)

Unfortunately, my view of medicine would be pretty unpopular with the pharmaceutical industry as well.

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Techn0Girl

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Wed Oct-21-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #115

175. I have no idea what you are talking about.

What the heck are you talking about?

I merely pointed to some sources that said that Timerosol is banned in quite a few countries. And I pointed ot a source that indicated that, at one point the Feds banned Timerosol from being used by Pregnant woman and young children .

Hey there's some soncerns there. I have no other agenda other than wanting to bring some balance into the discussion .

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earcandle

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #175

182. THanks for the post.

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Grinchie

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #81

125. Except for 40% mortality in tests on Rats in the 30's..

The only conspiriacy is that which promotes profit.

They actually kept using Thimerosol for many years after, simply because their was so much tainted product in storage. It is still used today, despite what you have been told by your Authority figures.

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Techn0Girl

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Wed Oct-21-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #81

173. In the Internet No One Can Hear You Smirk...

Timerosol is banned in most of Europe - virtually all of Europe.
Me, personally, I have to wonder why?

But that's just me. I like to understand both sides of the issue instead of going off half cocked.

As to your snark regarding government agencies not being involved in pushing big business interests well I can see your point there. I mean it's not as if the FTC has been pushing trade laws that were being heavily lobbied by huge businesses or our Recreation and Parks department has been selling off Federal Forest land to both the logging and the Oik INdustry and it's not like the Feds have been allowing drugs with lethal side effects to get to market early or anything.....

Oh wait ....

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GirlinContempt

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Wed Oct-21-09 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #81

192. This link has some good sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

Yes, it's wiki, but the citations are good.

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NJmaverick

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #73

85. When you start listing Newsmax as a factual source

you lose ALL your credibility

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Techn0Girl

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Wed Oct-21-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #85

174. Credibility...

I understand your concerns about Newsmax. But the fact that Timerosol has been banned by most countries EXCEPT the US is a fact so maybe you shouldn't throw the baby out with the tainted bathwater.

Other western countries have expressed legitimate concerns with the product .

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uppityperson

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #174

178. Timersol? Perhaps you mean Thiomersal?

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Techn0Girl

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Wed Oct-21-09 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #178

190. Perhaps you mean...

Thanks for the spelling correction.
You get a cookie.

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #73

114. Thanks!

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rd_kent

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #73

123. You should start with the informing of yourself.

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 08:12 PM by rd_kent

There is NO scientific evidence that vaccines pose any danger, other than a reaction to the disease/virus being vaccinated against.

and you used newsmax as a source, so I KNOW you dont know shit!

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Jill_Casey

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #73

148. Correct :)

It is still used today, despite what you have been told by your Authority figures.
Mimeblogger

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Odin2005

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Fri Oct-23-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #73

248. Sorry, this BS has been debunked a million times already.

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Jakes Progress

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:14 PM
Response to Original message

74. But you're crumpling all those tin foil hats.

You should know better than to use the internet for facts.

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dana_b

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:14 PM
Response to Original message

75. k&r for truth n/t

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ddeclue

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:14 PM
Response to Original message

76. How DARE you post FACTS like that...

:rofl:

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druidity33

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message

79. I have 2 questions.

Is it true that the maker of the vaccine has been given legal immunity to any lawsuit that may arise from usage of said vaccine?

How many people die each year from Seasonal Flu as opposed to H1N1?

I'd like facts with links if possible...

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NJmaverick

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #79

88. I don't recall the total flu deaths from H1N1 to date. HOWEVER

I can tell you 70 children have already died. This is compared to the usual yearly deaths of 30-35 children from seasonal flue.

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druidity33

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Tue Oct-20-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #88

97. did you look that up?

because this link says it's 36,000 deaths per year for the Seasonal Flu. As of the articles Press date (April 28, 2009) there had been over 13,000 US deaths from regular Seasonal Flu already and 0 from H1N1. It doesn't say how many of them were children, but i'd bet more than 30-35.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/04/28/regular.flu/index.html

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NJmaverick

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Tue Oct-20-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #97

105. I work in public health. The epidemiologist that I work with told me this

last week.

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #105

122. so you are basically passing on hearsay.

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #122

142. If this were a court of law that might be an issue.

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #97

117. That's about right, actually.

http://www2a.cdc.gov/han/ArchiveSys/ViewMsgV.asp?AlertNum=00268

Order of magnitude, anyway.

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #97

121. Thanks for the facts!

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GirlinContempt

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Wed Oct-21-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #97

169. As of October 20, 2009, 11h00 EDT, 83 Canadians have died of H1N1

http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/publichealth/sri/cases.html

Total influenza hospitalization rates for laboratory-confirmed influenza are higher than expected for this time of year for adults and children. And for children 5-17 and adults 18-49 years of age, hospitalization rates from April – October 2009 exceed average flu season rates (for October through April).

The proportion of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) based on the 122 Cities Report has increased and now exceeds what is normally expected at this time of year. In addition, 19 flu-related pediatric deaths were reported this week; 16 of these deaths were confirmed 2009 H1N1 and 3 were unsubtyped influenza A and likely to be 2009 H1N1. A total of 76 laboratory confirmed 2009 H1N1 pediatric deaths have been reported to CDC since April. http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/10/h1n1-swine-flu-and-regular-flu-update.html

According to health officials today, 76 US children have now died of H1N1. 19 new deaths were reported this week. Officials are warning that swine flu is evidently dangerous in particular for the young.
The regular flu kills between 46 and 88 children a year, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That suggests deaths from the new H1N1 virus could dramatically outpace children's deaths from seasonal flu, if swine flu continues to spread as it has.
The new virus, first identified in April, is a global epidemic. The CDC doesn't have an exact count of all swine flu deaths and hospitalizations, but existing reports suggest more than 600 have died and more than 9,000 have been hospitalized. Health officials believe millions of Americans have caught the virus.
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/more-u-s-child-deaths-swine-flu-h1n1

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #79

89. Answers.

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 04:38 PM by HiFructosePronSyrup

"Is it true that the maker of the vaccine has been given legal immunity to any lawsuit that may arise from usage of said vaccine?"

Half truth. The government has approved the use of the vaccine, and the government has recommended the vaccine, and the government has thus absolved the producers of the vaccine of liability. Any damages awarded from lawsuits filed by patients who have become harmed by the vaccine, if any, will come from a separately created fund, not the producers of the vaccine.

"How many people die each year from Seasonal Flu as opposed to H1N1?"

On average, the seasonal flu and flu related issues such as secondary pneumonia infection kills about 36,000 Americans per year. Typically these are elderly patients with compromised immune systems.

So far the H1N1 strain has killed approximately 1,000 Americans since it was discovered earlier this year, with a greater percentage of deaths among healthy young individuals in comparison to the seasonal flu. The last projection I saw was around 90,000 deaths in the U.S. alone for the year. For perspective, that's about 30 times the number of deaths as the 9-11 attack.

That number has likely been reduced thanks to the vaccine.

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druidity33

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Tue Oct-20-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #89

98. Thank you for answering my questions

without snark. Do you know if the government has made any moves toward absolving itself of liability in this matter? Where did you get the 90,000 deaths projection? CDC? If healthy young people are dying disproportionately, how do they make 'high risk' categories?

Thanks again for your reply... i've been having a lengthy vaccination debate with my neighbor, and like having sourceable info.

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #98

104. No.

The idea that the government is forcing people to take vaccines and then preventing anybody from collecting damages if it's faulty is fear-mongering conspiracy theory boilerplate.

I believe that it was CDC was the agency for that 90,000 deaths projection, although it may have been an equivalent agency in Europe. I believe it was in a British journal that I saw it. Again, I'm pretty sure it's been revised. The CDC has much public outreach if you want to search their site for more info.

I believe that the current high risk groups are health care workers (because they're exposed to a lot of sick people), people under the age of 24 (because daycares, schools and college grounds are perfect breeding grounds, as it were, for the flu), and for people who work in daycares (kind of a combination of the two previous groups). It appears there was a related virus back in the fifties, and older people have some immunity, so they're not as worried about it spreading through, say, old folks homes.

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #89

124. or caused by it.... we just started vaccinating. why the young?

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #124

158. We caused deaths in June and July by vaccinating now? You are confused.

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earcandle

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #158

185. Pardon me? I am not sure what you are referring to.

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druidity33

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Wed Oct-21-09 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #89

196. If there have been a thousand deaths

in the US so far, and the estimate was 90,000 this year/per year, and the vaccine hadn't been released until the end of September, wouldn't you say the estimate was off? I agree that the number will likely be reduced next year, but i think we pretty much missed the boat this year. It isn't even available yet around me, and won't be for another 2 weeks or so... that takes us into November.

:shrug:

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Wed Oct-21-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #196

218. No.

I believe they weren't expecting most deaths to occur until the regular flu season, which is just getting started. So you can't really just how good the estimate is until after that's over.

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #79

118. Great questions! I bet they cannot or will not answer those!

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #118

156. They were answered 3 hours before you posted that statement. LOL

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GirlinContempt

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Wed Oct-21-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #118

170. Here you go!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6814605&mesg_id=6822386

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earcandle

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #170

186. that map is incomprehesible. Are they trying to say nearly 100%

Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 02:51 AM by earcandle

of the US and Europe and Australia are positive for the H1N1?

That is ridiculous hype.

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GirlinContempt

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Wed Oct-21-09 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #186

188. Incomprehensible? How?

That is the percentage of flu that is H1N1 vs other flu types, as it says on the map. It's cases of flu, broken down in to H1N1 and others.

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gkhouston

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #186

202. It's a pandemic. What were you expecting?? n/t

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Thu Oct-22-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #186

234. You can't possibly be that dense.

It's showing that in North America, Europe and Australia nearly all the cases are H1N1 instead of seasonal influenza. That is clear with even a cursory glance.

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uppityperson

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #118

181. You bet wrong. Here is info on "hold harmless" clause and how to get compensation for issues...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6814605&mesg_id=6822817

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uppityperson

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #79

179. Yes and here is a way to get compensation.

How to deal with a vaccine injury, federal compensation is available.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-laiv-h1n1.pdf

8 Vaccine injury compensation If you or your child has a reaction to the vaccine, your ability to sue is limited by law. However, a federal program has been created to help pay for the medical care and other specific expenses of certain persons who have a serious reaction to this vaccine. For more information about this program, call 1-888-275-4772 or visit the program’s website at: http://www.hrsa.gov/countermeasurescomp/default.htm

About the "hold harmless" clause, here is info on that.
Main webpage
http://www.hrsa.gov/countermeasurescomp/countermeasures.htm

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/E9-23844.htm

blah blah blah legalese blah blah blah
clip

V. Population (as Required by Section 319F-3(b)(2)(C) of the Act)

Section 319F-3(a)(4)(A) confers immunity to manufacturers and
distributors of the Covered Countermeasure, regardless of the defined
population.
Section 319F-3(a)(3)(C)(i) confers immunity to covered persons who
could be program planners or qualified persons with respect to the
Covered Countermeasure only if a member of the population specified in
the Declaration administers or uses the Covered Countermeasure and is
in or connected to the geographic location specified in this
Declaration, or the program planner or qualified person reasonably
could have believed that these conditions were met.
The populations specified in this Declaration are the following:
(1) All persons who use a Covered Countermeasure or to whom such a
Covered Countermeasure is administered as an Investigational New Drug
in a human clinical trial conducted directly by the Federal Government,
or pursuant to a contract, grant or cooperative agreement with the
Federal Government; (2) all persons who use a Covered Countermeasure or
to whom such a Countermeasure is administered in a pre-pandemic phase,
as defined below; and/or (3) all persons who use a Covered
Countermeasure, or to whom such a Covered Countermeasure is
administered in a pandemic phase, as defined below.

more legalse, etc

I don't have specific #s on hini influenza deaths vs seasonal influenza deaths since it is all happening now. Check CDC or WHO pages for specific up to date numbers as they update them regularly. google CDC and WHO and you can find them.

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Trillo

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:26 PM
Response to Original message

80. Facts? Or "Damage Control?"

Germans Unhappy with Alternative Swine Flu Vaccine for Politicians

Damage control is the name of the game in Berlin on Monday as politicians rush to deny that they are receiving a better, safer swine flu vaccine than ordinary Germans. The first of 50 million doses arrived in Germany on Monday.

One might think that the arrival in Germany of the first of 50 million doses of swine flu vaccine on Monday might be cause for celebration. But with news breaking over the weekend that top government officials in Berlin will be injected with an alternative vaccine -- one widely seen as safer -- a debate about an alleged two-class medical system has erupted.

...more at link

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kimmerspixelated

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #80

94. AHA!

Thanks for posting. There are many doctors throughout the country that refuse the shot. THEY KNOW it's unsafe!

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NJmaverick

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Tue Oct-20-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #94

95. Funny thing, I have yet to meet a doctor (and I meet and talk with plenty of the)

that has said the utter nonsense you just espoused.

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Trillo

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Tue Oct-20-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #95

101. You could try reading the article, a few names and titles were mentioned.

Here's another one:

'Stop the Shot' Campaign Against H1N1 Vaccine Hits Federal and State Courts

Tresa Baldas
The National Law Journal
October 14, 2009

A "stop the shot" campaign has hit federal and state courts. This past Friday, a group of New York doctors and health care workers asked a federal judge in Washington, D.C., to order the federal government not to distribute the H1N1 vaccine. Specifically, they're challenging the legality of the licensing of the swine flu vaccine, alleging it was approved too quickly without appropriate testing for safety and effectiveness.

...more at link

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NJmaverick

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Tue Oct-20-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #101

106. What's next a campaign to stop having to wash their hands?

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 06:37 PM by NJmaverick

maybe they would like to wear ragged jeans in the OR instead of those unflattering surgical scrubs. Still I am talking about doctors who are involved with public health, who have worked at CDC and WHO. I am talking doctors who are specialists in infectious disease and similar fields.

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Trillo

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Wed Oct-21-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #106

215. I don't know how you got not washing hands from either of those two articles.

Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 11:34 AM by Trillo

But the imaginations we all have are amazing, which was one of my points
in posting the "Second class medicine" article. It's easy to see how people
would write all sorts of messages to each other as emails, when there is
such a scandal as "special, safer" vaccines for German politicians and the
German military.

This appears to be what has been purchased for the U.S. vaccine:

Manufacturer     Bulk Vaccine Antigen   Bulk Virus Concentrate/FFF   Bulk Oil and Water Adjuvant

Sanofi Pasteur   $61,425,000            0                            0
GSK              0                      0                            $71,400,000 
Novartis         $346,334,450           0                            $343,810,470 
CSL              0                      0                            0
MedImmune        0                      $61,008,000                  0

TOTAL            $407,759,450           $61,008,000                  $415,210,470

http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2009pres/07/20090713b.html

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NJmaverick

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Wed Oct-21-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #215

216. I work in Public Health. I wish there was a way to get you to see

just how silly and completely out of touch with reality you are. Sadly I am no more likely to convince you of that, than I am convincing a birther that Obama was born in the USA.

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Grinchie

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #94

107. You got that right!

I love the quote that "No Scintific Proof that Thimerosol is harmful".. Thats is so funny I did a mouthspray!"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1419999256011826335&ei=PU_eSo6jMpeGqQOezri7Ag&q=mercury+vaccines&dur=3#

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rd_kent

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #94

129. Really? How many doctors? Please provide your source.

But I bet we will never see a follow up post.......

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #80

126. uuuuhhhhh huhhhhhhh???

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Yes We Did

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Tue Oct-20-09 05:29 PM
Response to Original message

100. That's fine... still not getting it.

If I get sick, I get sick. I don't see a point in putting it into my body. You want to avoid it? Simple.

Gargle with salt water twice a day.
Blow your nose good once a day and use a q-tip dipped in salt water to clean out your nostrils.
Wash your hands often.

There... No needle. No spray. And no vaccine manufactured in a lab that may or may not work anyway.

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Chemisse

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Tue Oct-20-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #100

103. I'm not getting it (I don't think!) because

I am not in a high risk group.

Right now, in my state, people are frantically waiting for the swine flu shot to become available. This flu is really scary for young people and pregnant women, not so scary for me at my age. I will not step ahead of anyone who really needs it.

I am trying to follow a policy of not touching my mouth, nose or eyes unless I have just washed my hands.

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AlienGirl

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:19 PM
Response to Original message

108. Many of the deaths in young people have been due to MRSA pneumonia after getting flu

Anyone who's MRSA-positive should get the shot. I've been reading that a lot of the deaths in younger people are due to MRSA pneumonia, which has a very high mortality rate, rather than due to the flu virus itself or cytokine storm.

If you have had MRSA, or know that you are MRSA-positive, it's a good idea to get vaccinated!

Tucker

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #108

128. what is MRSA?

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uppityperson

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #128

183. Are you serious? You don't know what MRSA is?

:rofl: and we are supposed to take your advice and information about health matters?

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earcandle

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Wed Oct-21-09 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #183

187. I am not giving advice. I am sharing my point of view, or experience. I think you are all adults

Edited on Wed Oct-21-09 03:04 AM by earcandle

here and know your own minds and speak them as well.

I don't pretend to be or have found a real doctor yet that can
answer my questions. But I do ask them.

Who said you are "supposed" to take my advice?  That
must be a result of my being assertive about my thoughts and
feelings.
They do seem like mastery if you are just used to beliefs, but
believe me I am no where near it.  I just take risks and 9
times out of 10 my insight is richer that main stream seems to
be. 

Don't be offended.

SO, what is MSRA or whatever that was......?

Multiple Sclerosis Retrograde in Asia Minor? 

Glad I don't have it,whatever it is!

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uppityperson

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Wed Oct-21-09 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #187

191. Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus (also known as the super bug)

Sorry but it seems anyone with an opinion about health matters usually knows what MRSA is.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/mrsa/DS00735
http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/understanding-mrsa-methicillin-resistant-staphylococcus-aureus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methicillin-resistant_Staphylococcus_aureus

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earcandle

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #191

204. Thank you! I appreciate sharing the information.

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #108

152. Do you have any links?

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AlienGirl

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Wed Oct-21-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #152

172. Here are some links (but my original source was f2f, not online)

The original information comes from my doctor (I saw her two weeks ago for monthly renewal on medication and asked then).

Here's what I found online:

http://www.hc2d.co.uk/content.php?contentId=11442

The potential of the threat from the new strain of the antibiotic-resistant bacterium, which is becoming more widespread, is outlined in a study in the journal Lancet Infectious Diseases.
...
While cases of pneumonia caused by CA-MRSA in the UK are very rare, researchers from Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta say death rates following infection may be higher than 50%.

Experts warn that swine flu may intensify the problem because CA-MRSA appears to strike people who are already ill with flu.

The researchers said: "Community-acquired MRSA infections are no longer restricted to certain risk groups or to the geographic areas where outbreaks first occurred.

http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/buffaloerie/story/711734.html

Examining how swine flu killed a 'very healthy' teen
Complications from MRSA bacteria contribute to first local H1N1 fatality
...
What happened? By the time Matthew entered the hospital, he was seriously ill with the flu, as well as co-infected with a type of bacteria known as methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus, or MRSA, according to health officials.
...
On the influence of MRSA, Faden said it might be that the flu, whether it is swine flu or regular flu, damages the lower airway or impairs the body’s disease-fighting immune system. As a result, MRSA living in the nose or upper airway gains entrance into the bloodstream to cause disease.

http://www.infectiousdiseasenews.com/article/43682.aspx

Posted September 14, 2009

Influenza A H1N1, CA-MRSA coinfection fatal in two pediatric patients

The first case reports of concomitant influenza A H1N1 and community-acquired methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus infection indicate that the presence of both pathogens may lead to rapid disease progression and death.

http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/20090930/bacteria-have-role-in_swine-flu-deaths

Bacteria Have Role in Swine Flu Deaths
Bacterial Infections Can Be Deadly for Some Patients With H1N1 Swine Flu
By Daniel J. DeNoon
WebMD Health NewsReviewed by Louise Chang, MD

Sept. 30, 2009 - Bacterial infections play a major role in H1N1 swine flu deaths, the CDC warns.

The swine flu bug can cause fatal pneumonia all by itself. But in a large number of cases it gets help from other deadly germs that take advantage of a weakened immune system and cause pneumonia.

A CDC investigation into 77 U.S. swine flu deaths found that 22 of the victims -- 29% -- suffered from at least one bacterial co-infection.

Ten of the 22 infections were caused by pneumococcus, an infection that can be prevented with either of two approved pneumococcal vaccines. The vaccine is recommended for any adult who has asthma or smokes, has a long-term health problem or immunity-lowering condition, or is over 65. It's routine for kids to get a four-dose series beginning at age 2 months.

...

Drug-resistant staph infection -- MRSA -- was involved in five of the deaths.

Tucker

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Wed Oct-21-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #172

213. I don't know if 5 out of 77 would count as many, in my view.

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greiner3

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:50 PM
Response to Original message

110. By my calculations;

If all republicans stop taking flu shots then the last of the breed may just die by 2031. My children will rejoice!

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jmondine

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Tue Oct-20-09 07:57 PM
Response to Original message

116. They left out the fact that Thimerosol is 50% by weight ethyl mercury

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #116

119. They also left out the fact that Blackbeard the pirate's real name was Edward Teach.

Neither have anything to do with the flu vaccine.

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Grinchie

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #119

131. Unless it happens that they used Thimerosol as a Vccine preservative..

Then it has everything to do with vaccines.

I've never seen a fact that you couldn't deftly avoid Pron.

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #131

132. Which they didn't.

I've never seen nonsense you couldn't make up, Grinchie.

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Grinchie

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #132

141. Got you on the run eh Pron? Whats the matter? Want me to call a Waahmbulance for you?

Since you are unable to read, I show you some new fangled movin pictures that I made up today.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1419999256011826335&ei=PU_eSo6jMpeGqQOezri7Ag&q=mercury+vaccines&dur=3#

Not that you'd have the motor skills to actually watch and comprehend it.

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #141

145. Emphasis on the "made up."

Robert Kennedy Jr.'s a pathetic joke.

There is no connection between autism and vaccines.

There is no mercury in the H1N1 vaccine.

I hope you didn't waste much time making up that nonsense. Actually... yeah, I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v_85tAey9s

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rtassi

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #145

168. Robert Kennedy Jr.'s a "pathetic joke" ? and the best you could counter with was

the Jenny McCarthy song? What arrogance!

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #168

217. Indeed.

RFK Jr. and Jenny McCarthy- two pathetic peas in a pod.

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Grinchie

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #145

177. Thanks for proving my statement regarding your lack of motor skills

It must suck to be one of the last people to come down off the DLC Capitalist Kool Aid. Poor Pron, malnourished, starving, and befuddled

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rtassi

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #141

163. Thank you for providing this video ... My wife who is a labor and delivery nurse

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 11:31 PM by rtassi

and I discuss this subject all the time, and my concerns have been dealt with dismissively because I am not in medicine

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #116

154. and that breast feeding babies ingest much more mercury than is in thimerosal.

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jmondine

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Wed Oct-21-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #154

224. All at once?

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Fire_Medic_Dave

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Wed Oct-21-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #224

225. LOL.

"If I can't find a thimerosal-free flu shot for my baby, just how much mercury am I exposing my baby to?

There is 12.5 micrograms of mercury in a dose of thimerosal-containing flu vaccine that is given to infants. A can of tuna typically has about 11 micrograms. Breast milk contains between 1.4 to 1.7 micrograms of methyl mercury per liter. If a baby is breastfed exclusively up to six months, the baby will consume about 360 micrograms of mercury. Vaccines with trace amounts of thimerosal have 1 microgram or less of mercury."

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/immunize/hcp/thimerosalfs.html

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earcandle

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:11 PM
Response to Original message

130. Time to recheck your "facts", yes?

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #130

133. No.

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democracy1st

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:14 PM
Response to Original message

135. K & R

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likesmountains 52

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Tue Oct-20-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message

140. Ok, I don't know much...just work in a hospital in a county of 40,000 people

and right now we have 3 patients under 40 on ventilators with H1N1 related pneumonia. I'm not suggesting that everyone is going to die or get seriously ill...but to suggest that this is not a real health problem right now is ridiculous. Washing your hands is good...but I'm thinking the vaccine might be better.

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katsy

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:26 PM
Response to Original message

149. Just a check on the thimerosal:

Refer to the fda's page on thimerosal.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm070430.htm

A snip:

" I understand that the Institute of Medicine (IOM) has reviewed the issue of thimerosal in vaccines. What were the IOM's findings?

In its report of October 1, 2001, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee concluded that the evidence is inadequate to either accept or reject a causal relationship between thimerosal exposure from childhood vaccines and the neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and speech or language delay. At that time the committee's conclusion was based on the fact that there were no published epidemiological studies examining the potential association between thimerosal containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders. The Committee did conclude that the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines could be associated with neurodevelopmental disorders was biologically plausible. However, additional studies were needed to establish or reject a causal relationship.

The Committee believed that the effort to remove thimerosal from vaccines was "a prudent measure in support of the public health goal to reduce mercury exposure of infants and children as much as possible."

Furthermore, in this regard, the Committee urged that "full consideration be given to removing thimerosal from any biological product to which infants, children, and pregnant women are exposed."
In 2004, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee again examined the hypothesis that vaccines, specifically the MMR vaccines and thimerosal containing vaccines, are causally associated with autism. In this report, the committee incorporated new epidemiological evidence from the U.S., Denmark, Sweden, and the United Kingdom, and studies of biologic mechanisms related to vaccines and autism that had become available since its report in 2001. The committee concluded that this body of evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, and that hypotheses generated to date concerning a biological mechanism for such causality are theoretical only. Further, the committee stated that the benefits of vaccination are proven and the hypothesis of susceptible populations is presently speculative, and that widespread rejection of vaccines would lead to increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases like measles, whooping cough and Hib bacterial meningitis."

You make some good points. And if I trusted the government to act with integrity on my behalf, I'd be good with your argument. But I suggest that concerns are not so much about vaccines as the "boogeyman", I just don't trust the government agencies to be on my side. Why is thimerosal ban in some (most?) European countries? When is just a tiny bit of toxicity okay?

My kids have all their vaccines. I'm not anti-vaccine. But this flu shot, with thimerosal? I just haven't decided what to do. I'd pay more to have the preservative free version if it exists. I expect that any good government would support and insist that all of us have that choice. Maybe a good government would even err on the side of our children's safety and insist that all flu vaccines be mercury free, yes? LOL.

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HiFructosePronSyrup

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #149

161. Here's some more information about Blackbeard.

Blackbeard operated in many coastal waters; it was difficult for larger vessels to engage him in battle. Two smaller hired sloops were therefore put under the command of Lieutenant Robert Maynard, with instructions from Spotswood to hunt down and destroy Blackbeard, offering a reward of £100, and smaller sums for the lesser crew members.

Maynard sailed from James River on November 11, 1718, in command of thirty men from HMS Pearl, and twenty-five men and a midshipman of HMS Lyme, and in command of the hired sloops, the Ranger and Jane (temporarily commissioned as His Majesty's Ships to avoid accusations of piracy themselves). Maynard found the pirates anchored in a North Carolina inlet on the inner side of Ocracoke Island, on the evening of November 21.<14>

Maynard and his men decided to wait until the following morning because the tide would be more favourable. Blackbeard's Adventure had a crew of only nineteen, "Thirteen white and six Negroes", as reported to the Admiralty. A small boat was sent ahead at daybreak, was fired upon, and quickly retreated. Blackbeard's superior knowledge of the inlet was of much help, although he and his crew had been drinking in his cabin the night prior. Throughout the night Blackbeard waited for Maynard to make his move. Blackbeard cut his anchor cable and quickly attempted to move towards a narrow channel. Maynard made chase; however, his sloops ran aground, and there was a shouted exchange between captains. Maynard's account says, "At our first salutation, he drank Damnation to me and my Men, whom he stil'd Cowardly Puppies, saying, He would neither give nor take Quarter", although many different versions of the dialogue exist.

Eventually, Maynard's sloops were able to float freely again, and he began to row towards Blackbeard, since the wind was not strong enough at the time for setting sail. When they came upon Blackbeard's Adventure, they were hit with a devastating broadside attack. Midshipman Hyde, captain of the smaller Jane, was killed along with six other men. Ten men were also wounded in the surprise attack. The sloop fell astern and was little help in the following action. Maynard continued his pursuit in Ranger, managing to blast the Adventure's rigging, forcing it ashore. Maynard ordered many of his crew into the holds and readied to be boarded. As his ship approached, Blackbeard saw the mostly empty decks, assumed it was safe to board, and did so with ten men. Blackbeard's assault was preceded by several grenades made by filling rum bottles with gunpowder. Broken glass swept the deck and gunpowder smoke obscured Maynard's view of Blackbeard's boarders.<8>

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uppityperson

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #161

184. I must say

sometimes you hit it right on. Thank you for the educational material.

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katsy

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Wed Oct-21-09 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #161

198. That's beneath you.

I have always shown respect for other people's pov. I don't hide behind a keyboard just to be nasty.

Because I'm not a scientist, nor even smart enough to understand everything I read about medical/scientific issues, I tend to rely on instinct. That is not so good, but I try to make good decisions for my family. I do not have a issue with vaccines. But try as I may... I can't see why the CDC or whoever is in charge can't insist on mercury free vaccines except that they cost $4 or $5 more. I take issue with that & that alone.

Anyway, I was trying to say that the fda's Q & A did not adequately come out in favor of or against mercury in vaccines. Mercury does not have a clean bill of health. It may be the lesser of the evils, but not putting mercury in a child's body is no doubt the best of all worlds.

Are you trying to say blackbeard supports mercury in vaccines or is it just fun to kick some stranger on the intertubes around.

Thanks for the snark. Nice person.

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donheld

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message

151. Thank you Peggy

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smubossirossi

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Tue Oct-20-09 09:54 PM
Response to Original message

153. k&r well said!

Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 10:36 PM by smubossirossi

I agree with you PEG stick to valid sources that are tested by time and peer reviewed by knowledgeable professionals (doctors epidemiologists etc.) The fact is that vaccination practices have been used by humans before corporations existed because they understood that by vaccinating you reduce the risk of morbidity and mortality. The reason we no longer take puss from smallpox pustules is because this is a very strong live strain of the illness and is more likely to cause severe illness. By making an inactivated virus (like the shots) it makes the virus very low virulence allowing the body to create anti-bodies without causing illness, you cannot get the flu from a flu shot, you can get an allergic reaction to the vaccine usually those with egg allergies. The facts are simple getting vaccinated reduces your risk of the flu. You do put people at risk when you do not get vaccinated. Here in Texas and across the NATION there is a rise in Pertussis morbidity and mortality in infants that has been caused by lower vaccination coverage rates, not from getting vaccinated. It is a simple choice one option has less risk than the other http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5840md.htm look at table 2 Pertussis is increasing past last years rates and http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/290/22/2968 . The risk is greater getting the actual illness than getting the vaccination. Use you Brain. The scientific community has an majority consensus on vaccinations and their safety just like science community has overall agreement on global climate change. Look at the majority opinion not the fringe opinion. You have a CHOICE YES but choices do have consequences none the less.

these are reliable sources that have scientific rigor and transparent, proven methodology: If you can site relevant skepticism on vaccinations from these sources I will happily look into any issue you come up with. Sources of Facts are important, you would not site the weekly standard as a reliable source on Health reform issues but would consider the Congressional Budget Office to give evidence that reflect the fact of health care reform impact not an opinion.

NEJM-New England Journal if Medicine
CDC-Center for Disease Control
NIH-National Institute of Health
NHS-National Health Services or NICE-National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence
MMWR- Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report

Also lets be respectful, we should all use proper decorum and manners to discuss these ideas. We are among friends and should not bully or name call that is for TROLLS!

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Raven

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Tue Oct-20-09 10:06 PM
Response to Original message

159. Timely info, CP, as usual, you are a gift!. Getting my shot tomorrow.n/t

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blue neen

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Tue Oct-20-09 11:35 PM
Response to Original message

166. CP, all I know is this:

My dear, dear friend was admitted to the hospital today with all the symptoms of H1N1. They tested her for the virus but did not wait for the results...they put her on Tamiflu immediately. They also did a chest x-ray to check for pneumonia, which she probably does have.

She is on oxygen right now, steroids, and the Tamiflu. She is in isolation in the hospital, and every caregiver who comes into the room is wearing a mask. Healthcare workers and hospitals are taking this very seriously. Why isn't everyone else?

I am so frightened for her...please keep her in your prayers, good vibes, whatever.

I soooo wish that the vaccine would have been available at least a month ago. Thank you so much for your informative post. H1N1 is no longer speculation; it is really serious, death-defying illness staring us in the face.

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earcandle

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Wed Oct-21-09 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #166

180. I hope she pulls out of it.

But your post seems really odd.

death defying illness, we could only hope for......if your
meaning is to find a way in which we can defy death, yes?

Now she has to win over the Tamiflu, and this possible pending
pneumonia as a result, without evidence of the virus.

Will they make sure the evidence backs up their actions, after
the fact? 

I really hope she will be okay.

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GirlinContempt

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Wed Oct-21-09 04:26 AM
Response to Original message

193. I have sort of fond memories of 'Vaccine Day'

at school. Everyone with their slips, muttering in line ups, glaring at the nurses, plotting our escapes from the dreaded poke, the faking sick afterward so we could miss math. Every year as a child they'd announce Vaccine Day and a groan would pass over the school. It was a unifying experience.

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gkhouston

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #193

203. I remember getting vaccinated for smallpox again and again and again... n/t

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pipoman

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Wed Oct-21-09 05:44 AM
Response to Original message

194. The CDC and WHO

should really be ashamed of themselves for giving this flu the "swine flu" moniker. It is idiotic.

Hey, I have an idea! Let's name our all new diet drug Fen Phen. What a bunch of idiots who won't take our new diet drug, it is in no way related to the old Fen Phen.

How about lets all run out and buy the new Ford Pinto...Ford's motto for the new Pinto could be, "Don't worry, this one will not blow up".

The labeling this flu 'swine flu', had to be the stupidest shit I have seen in recent years from the health care community.

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blondeatlast

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #194

205. Yes, because you are so much wiser and more experienced in this than the CDC and WHO. Thank you,

Esteemed One, for gracing us with your presence.

:eyes:

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TwilightGardener

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Wed Oct-21-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #194

211. I'm not seeing the significance of the name--apparently it was

originally and casually called "swine flu" because it is similar to the 1976 version, and may have originated in hog farms. They then scientifically renamed it H1N1. What difference does it make what you call it? The impact is the same.

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pipoman

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Wed Oct-21-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #211

219. The name, for anyone over around 45

represents what many believe was a completely unnecessary scare which the vaccine killed and/or permanently impaired 1000 times the number of people than the 1976 swine flu killed. Wonder why so many people are resistant to the current vaccine? Because I saw a friend suffer the rest of his miserable life with Guillain-Barre syndrome because he got the swine flu vaccination. The scientific community should have known better.

Hey, I think I'll buy a cruise ship and call it the Titanic..

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blondeatlast

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Wed Oct-21-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #219

220. Got a cite? I'm a torts/litigation paralegal (also in my mid 40s) and I think if

if that were so, I think I'd be aware of it.

Reputable source, please. Thank you.

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pipoman

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Wed Oct-21-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #220

221. Here

On February 5, 1976, an army recruit at Fort Dix said he felt tired and weak. He died the next day and four of his fellow soldiers were later hospitalized. Two weeks after his death, health officials announced that swine flu was the cause of death and that this strain of flu appeared to be closely related to the strain involved in the 1918 flu pandemic. Alarmed public-health officials decided that action must be taken to head off another major pandemic, and they urged President Gerald Ford that every person in the U.S. be vaccinated for the disease. The vaccination program was plagued by delays and public relations problems, but about 24% of the population had been vaccinated by the time the program was canceled. Only one person, the Fort Dix army recruit, died from the flu.<2><3>

There were reports of Guillain-Barré syndrome, a paralyzing neuromuscular disorder, affecting some people who had received swine flu immunizations. One of the causes of this syndrome could be a rare side-effect of modern influenza vaccines, with an incidence of about one case per million vaccinations.<4> As a result, Di Justo writes that "the public refused to trust a government-operated health program that killed old people and crippled young people." In total, less than 33 percent of the population had been immunized by the end of 1976. The National Influenza Immunization Program was effectively halted on December 16.

Overall, about 500 cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS), resulting in death from severe pulmonary complications for 25 people, were probably caused by an immunopathological reaction to the 1976 vaccine. Other influenza vaccines have not been linked to Guillain-Barré syndrome, though caution is advised for certain individuals, particularly those with a history of GBS.<5><6>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak

I guess it was only 500 times more harmful than the flu was...my error. It is interesting that in the OP cite, GBS was specifically addressed.

Understand, I don't have strong feelings one way or the other on vaccination for H1N1. It was just a poor decision to effectively try to sell the risk to the public to encourage behavior which may reduce public risk, yet choose to refer to H1N1 by a name with such negative associations.

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blondeatlast

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Thu Oct-22-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #221

229. Wiki. kthxbai. nt

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pipoman

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Thu Oct-22-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #229

235. Oh, I see

your analytical self, having nothing to dispute the fact that there is, in fact, an extremely bad reputation associated with the name "swine flu". The people who ran right out and received their immunization (based on a complete overreaction by the same community which is trying to sell this swine flu vaccine to the public), were later viewed as reactionary (at best). Anyone who knew anyone, who had even a bad reaction to the previous swine flu scare would be an idiot not to feel at least a bit of skepticism about, again, the same people telling them to, 'run right out and get your swine flu vaccination...were really serious this time!'. WTF were they thinking?

I think I'll start an energy company and call it Enron. Wanna invest?

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pipoman

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Fri Oct-23-09 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #229

246. What?

Still no link to anything contrary to that erroneous (sez you) wiki article? Is your own Google machine broken? Since this article is so full of errors it should just take you a second to discredit it with your vast, super hero, paralegal skills, no? orrufulosht?

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bullwinkle428

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Thu Oct-22-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #194

244. Um, they just found some pigs that may be positive for swine flu in Minnesota:

MINNEAPOLIS – Preliminary tests show three pigs in Minnesota may have contracted the swine flu virus making them the first potential U.S. cases in swine, agricultural officials said Friday. They stressed the finding does not threaten food safety.

The samples were taken from pigs shown at the Minnesota State Fair between Aug. 26 and Sept. 1 as part of a university research project. Officials expect results next week to confirm whether the pigs were infected with swine flu virus, also known as H1N1.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091017/ap_on_he_me/us_pigs_swine_flu

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pipoman

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Fri Oct-23-09 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #244

245. Um, nobody is denying that

pigs get the flu or that there are strains of flu referred to as swine flu, only that attaching that moniker to H1N1 was stupid from a PR standpoint because of the same group's complete clusterf--k in 1976. The CDC, WHO, and the medical community in general are acting as marketers or sales people as it were, when it comes to convincing the public that there is a real threat, and trying to motivate the public to act on a recommended course of treatment. We have all seen the public service announcements about breast cancer screening, prostate screening, and a myriad of other health concerns which may be avoided or prevented in one way or another, each is effectively a sales pitch which is selling an idea and a sense of urgency. I am sure that the CDC and WHO have great scientists...they obviously need some help with their PR skills...that's all.

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GCP

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Wed Oct-21-09 08:11 AM
Response to Original message

199. Thanks, Peg

I'm e-mailing it to my son who had reservations.

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Butch350

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:48 AM
Response to Original message

207. Oh boy your post has me seeing the light - I'm gonna rush out and get one now.

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blondeatlast

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Wed Oct-21-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #207

208. Good for you! Glad you appreciate the good work of FactCheck. nt

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alarimer

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Thu Oct-22-09 01:21 PM
Response to Original message

232. Thank you for this.

The misinformation from the anti-vaxxers is drowning out all the SCIENCE-BASED facts.

Too many people (on the left and right) are completely scientifically ignorant.

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