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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:28 PM
Original message
Poll question: Faith and the bible
As a wide assortment of people at DU who, more or less, are the most progressive believers in the world, the interpretation of the bible is fairly constant: believers tend to look at the "book" as 1) a book of fiction, 2) a tool introducing people to part of their religious history or 3) an outdated tome whose allegories could be viewed as cliches and repetitive.

I myself can't judge it completely, never having read it, nor being religious enough to want to read it.

But I am curious, hence this poll. You may vote anonymously of course, or you might enlighten others by your thoughtful answer.


How much of a role has the bible been in your life and faith?
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. well, you don't really have my answer in your list
the bible is a mixture -- there are obviously provable historic facts from independent sources, like lineage and events, so those parts are literally as well as provably true.
it has allegorical content, like parables, prophesies and proverbs, which instruct by example analogy or thinking outside the box.
it has codifications of behavior, which should be taken in historical context.
it has inspiring philosophy and ethical standards.

so... hard to say its only one thing.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. I am mostly atheist and I have read the Bible
I think it's an interesting book, and there's a lot of wisdom in there, but taking it as anything more than allegorical can be very destructive.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's a great piece of literature. n/t
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. ...except for all the fucking 'begats'.
THAT was a waste of time.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. eh, Faulkner did it, too.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Well, you can't beget without fucking

or at least you couldn't before 1978 (birth of first "test-tube baby.")
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. Ya know I've heard that time and again
But it really does suck as literature.

Just my PO.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. people can read/beleive/have faith in whatever they want, so long as
they don't insist that I believe it, too.
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Alan Watt's called it "The World's Most Dangerous Book". . .
and unfortunately, since reading his essay in 1973, I've seen no reason to dispute him . . .

The World's Most Dangerous Book



by Alan W. Watts

For many centuries the Roman Catholic Church was opposed to translating the Holy Scriptures into the "vulgar tongue." To this day, you can still get rid of a Bible salesman by saying, "But we are Catholics and, of course, don't read the Bible." The Catholic hierarchy included subtle theologians and scholars who knew very well that such a difficult and diverse collection of ancient writings, taken as the literal Word of God, would be wildly and dangerously interpreted if put into the hands of ignorant and uneducated peasants. Likewise, when a missionary boasted to George Bernard Shaw of the numerous converts he had made, Shaw asked, " Can these people use rifles?" "Oh, indeed, yes," said the missionary. "Some of them are very good shots." Whereupon Shaw scolded him for putting us all in peril in the day when those converts waged holy war against us for not following the Bible in the literal sense they gave to it. For the Bible says, "What a good thing it is when the Lord putteth into the hands of the righteous invincible might." But today, especially in the United States, there is a taboo against admitting that there are enormous numbers of stupid and ignorant people, in the bookish and literal sense of these words. They may be highly intelligent in the arts of farming, manufacture, engineering and finance, and even in physics, chemistry or medicine. But this intelligence does not automatically flow over to the fields of history, archaeology, linguistics, theology, philosophy and mythology which are what one needs to know in order to make any sense out such archaic literature as the books of the Bible.

This may sound snobbish, for there is an assumption that, in the Bible, God gave His message in plain words for plain people. Once, when I had given a radio broadcast in Canada, the announcer took me aside and said, "Don't you think that if there is a truly loving God, He would given us a plain and specific guide as to how to live our lives?"

"On the contrary," I replied, "a truly loving God would not stultify our minds. He would encourage us to think for ourselves." I tried, then, to show him that his belief in the divine authority of the Bible rested on nothing more than his own personal opinion, to which, of course, he was entitled. This is basic. The authority of the Bible, the church, the state, or of any spiritual or political leader, is derived from the individual followers and believers, since it is the believers' judgment that such leaders and institutions speak with a greater wisdom than there own. This is, obviously, a paradox, for only the wise can recognize wisdom. Thus, Catholics criticize Protestants for following their own opinions in understanding the Bible, as distinct from the interpretations of the Church, which originally issued and authorized the Bible. But Catholics seldom realize that the authority of the Church rests, likewise, on the opinion of its individual members that the Papacy and the councils of the Church are authoritative. The same is true of the state, for, as a French statesman said, people get the government they deserve.

Why does one come to the opinion that the Bible, literally understood, is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Usually because one's "elders and betters," or an impressively large group of ones peers, have this opinion. But this is to go along with the Bandar-log, or monkey tribe, in Rudyard Kipling's Jungle Books , who periodically get together and shout, "We all say so, so it must be true!" Having been a grandfather for a number of years, I am not particularly impressed with patriarchal authority. I am of an age with my own formerly impressive grandfathers (one of whom was a fervent fundamentalist, or literal believer in the Bible) and I realize that my opinions are as fallible as theirs.

<snip ~ and a lot more>


www.metaphoria.org/ac4t9909.html
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. I am quite closely related to Catholics. I has always amazed me how little they know of the Bible.
One of my brothers' in law was talking about the importance of obeying the commandments, and I asked "All of them?" And he quite adamantly said yes. He thinks there are only ten. In an effort to retain the peace, I refrained from commenting beyond a "hmmm". Hubby then changed the subject. He doesn't know the about all commandments either, but he does know me.

:rofl:
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've read the Bible through a few times
and some parts of it many, many times. There is a lot to ponder there, but it certainly can't be taken literally as the cultists do.
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. Once I violated some prohibition and didn't die
my belief in the bible decreased significantly.
When I discovered other ancient religious texts, my belief in biblical supremecy lessened a great deal more.
When I found that many texts were rejected a place in the bible, I realized any claim to divine scripture was false.
When I read of translations, copying throughout the ages and stories being added centuries later, it reinforced the previous realization.
And when I considered the hate, war, death, deceit, impoverishment etc that is done with the blessing of a biblical passage any rlelvence of the bible was pretty much obliterated for me.

I was raised Catholic and spent twelve years at the hands of the nuns. So it took a lot to crawl from under tall the crap. Sadly for them they taught me to think.
I still don't think I am totally out from under their spell.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. I only read the dirty parts.
"The bible is a book with some beautiful poetry, a bloodstained history, a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of 10,000 lies." Mark Twain
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HillWilliam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. Exekiel 23 is for you then :)
I love whuppin' that one on the fundies. Some of the nastiest porn ever written is right there in the Bible. Don't believe me? Read Ezekiel 23 at 'em and watch their heads explode when you get to the part about "their members being like those of donkeys and their emissions like those of horses". Dare them to get their own Bibles out if they don't believe you.

Runs 'em off every time, smelling salts in hand.

There's a reason they don't read Ezekiel 23 in Sunday School :rofl:
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. The bible is myth that contains a good deal of truth but very little fact.
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 01:51 PM by Ozymanithrax
It can and does mean exactly what any person or group wants it to mean. The Klu Klux Klan's interpretation of the bible is as different and as valid as the interpretation used by the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church where Martin Luther King served as minister.

I've read the bible. The King James version is a beautiful and poetic as a work of English Literature. But, for me, it is not and can never be a source of spiritual illumination.

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BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. No offense, but this is not a very good poll...
The options are nowhere close to being mutually exclusive.
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RockaFowler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. I don't understand
I'm Jewish and the Bible means something to me. We just believe in what the Gentiles call the Old Testament, not that New thing.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. Another Atheist who has read the bible.
I've also read Ayn Rand. Just because I don't agree with something doesn't mean I won't learn about it.

In fact, I consider it my responsibility to be well-informed on viewpoints I don't agree with.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. +1
Poorly written poll.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. Other and here is why
Edited on Tue Oct-20-09 02:02 PM by nadinbrzezinski
AS A JEW, no not me personally, but it could play a central role

One of the tenets of the faith is that the bible is the word of god given at Sinai...

Oh don't get snappy about the time line, trust me Fundamentalist Jews (my brother has been moving in that direction for decades now) don't.

Oh and I have read the Old testament cover to cover in Hebrew and the New Testament cover to cover in a comparative history of religion\ ethics class.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. I am a deist, a cultural Christian. I think that means I like to decorate for Christmas.
I like the Latin Mass, there is one here once a week downtown. But, I really don't go to church, so I haven't attended.

The Bible is an integral part of our culture. For me, I think it is interesting in how so many people find so many contradictory things in it. Thomas Jefferson's Bible "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" cuts out all the extraneous myth and storytelling that wasn't cogent or didn't make sense to Jefferson in the overall understanding of Jesus and what he represented. I have a copy of it in "The Jefferson Bible" with an expository introduction by F. Forrester Church. I recommend it.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. I have a copy of the Jefferson bible, too
that I downloaded once. I haven't taken the time yet to read it, though, something I need to do.

If literalists and fundies could, in some fashion, resolve all the contradictions in the bible, it would give their interpretations some weight. But they don't, and they can't, because it would alter so much of what they keep as their faith.
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GMA Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. You forgot the Mormon faith--
which is Christian--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints--(unless you're a fundamentalist, in which case it's an evil cult, or anyone who doesn't like the Church, in which case it's still a cult), but not Protestant. We do believe in the Bible, but only insofar as it's translated correctly, which gives great leeway in perusing biblical data and evidence. We also believe that revelation is ongoing, and have a body of scripture that gives clarity to biblical teachings (ie The Book of Mormon)

However, the big question, where "faith" is concerned, is the big "Unprovable". Without that, there's no reason for any religion, any faith, any hope, any charity, etc. I have lots and lots and lots of questions about the Bible, the universe, God. I also have faith that those questions will be answered, but maybe not on my timetable.

It seems sad to me that is so much talk about religious delusion, and assumptions that anyone who buys this stuff must be stupid. Well, I feel totally content with those who choose not to believe my religion, or any religion. If it's all a sham, and when this life is over we just disappear, I will have lost nothing, and will have spent my life learning to love and be of service to those around me.

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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Yes you have lost something.
your ability to think for yourself. Also, just because one doesn't believe that magical underwear will protect us and that we will not inherit our own planet to populate when we die; doesn't mean that we don't have the capability to learn to love and be of service to those around us.

What really pisses me off about you people of "faith" is that you think you're superior to those that don't believe in the things some man has told you to believe just in case there might be life after death.
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GMA Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Wow.
What did I say that would give you the idea that I feel superior?

I'm personally glad to have others who have great experience and insight to help me in this lifetime. Do you not admire or pattern yourself after anyone? And if you do, does that mean you've lost your ability to reason and think for yourself?

You have some really strange ideas about what kind of people have "faith", what place it has in their lives, and what they do with that faith. I have absolutely no doubt that there are billions of good people who are part of no religion, or a part of a different one from me. That does not in any way preclude them from doing wonderful things, just because they want to, and not because of some "reward". The number of Mormons is a tiny, tiny fraction of the world's population, and we are no better than anyone else, but we feel it is the responsibility of everyone in this world to be his or her best, and leave the world a better place.

Now, as for "magical underwear", and theology about populating planets, well, it sounds like you already have a point of view about that. I have no wish to either argue with you, nor to try to persuade you of any doctrine. I hold those dear and sacred, and if you choose not to like them, you're welcome to do that.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. I'm an atheist to a big extent *because* I read the Bible..
Compared what the Bible, and in particular Jesus, said with what the "Christians" were doing around me and decided that was not for me.

I guess I was about fourteen when that happened, it was long enough ago that my recollection is not all that clear and I've never been all that good at dates and timelines anyway.

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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
20. I think there are some good stories in the bible that set good examples on how one should try to
live. However, I do not think the bible should be taken literally. They are stories, written by fallible men. Very backward, ignorant, uneducated men compared to now. There is no one that can convince me that they- or anyone else was, is, or ever will have the capability of being communicated with by a god more than any other person.

I mean honestly, if I went into the desert and claimed to be blinded and visited by a supernatural being- and that, that being told me that I was to be the founder of his church and then I went on to tell people how they must live; would I be believed?

I think not.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
25. It was written by Jews and contains a lot of their history
Worth reading IMHO and has some good advice in it.

Much like our own constitution people keep trying to interpret it to fit the view of the day.

Read it as a history first, then take it from there is my advice.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
26. One more atheist whose read the bible.
Several times in fact. Grew up going to an evangelical fundie church so I knew that sucker backwards and forwards, Awana-way and Youth-Brainwashed-For-Christ-way.

After I entered my great phase of skepticism, that's when I read everything else from the Quran to the Kama-Sutra :evilgrin:

I'll tell you, I have never felt such a sense of relief when I finally gave up all relgiosity and just embraced the fact that I'm not a believer. THAT's when I finally found peace.

Now the Bible occupies space on a bookshelf. Right between the Quran and the Bhagavad Gita! That's it's "role" in my life. Heh!
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
27. The Bible is a Library of many books - ancient texts from one tribe, mainly.
The books were written over a period of about 700 years, although some of the books in the Old Testament purport to be older.

The Bible is a hodge podge of stories borrowed or stolen from other religions and cultures in the region which influenced the Hebrew tribe from 2000 BCE until the first century AD. It has elements of astro theology, too, in the old and new testaments.

This library of books called the Bible was assembled and designated in the first half of the 4th century AD, and in that editing process, all the gospels of the New Testament that didn't fit the dogma of the emerging Catholic church were banished, particularly those which did not treat Jesus as a deity, or those which alluded to reincarnation.
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. It's a wonderful tool for spreading Athiesm
Just make everybody read it cover to cover (like I have).
Soon it would be relegated to the classical fiction department.

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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
29. Another atheist who's read the bible several times
I've also memorized numerous passages and entire chapters of various books. And I've graduated seminary, having read the fucking thing in Hebrew and Greek.

I feel I'm in a good position to judge it and I find that is purely the work of men and there is no evidence of the god described therein.

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Lucy Goosey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
31. Other - I'm an atheist, but I've read the bible as part of my university studies.
I minored in religious studies (majored in philosophy).
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Jankyn Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
34. OTHER...The Bible is, as the critic...
...Northrup Frye once said, "the great code of Western literature." It has an important place in literary canon, and as an historical text (that is, as a text that has provoked so much historical action), it's fascinating.

My Bibles (I've got probably 11 or 12, each good for something else) get used frequently to look up things.

That said, I don't believe it any more than I believe the Book of Mormon (I've got a couple of those, as well as The Pearl of Great Price and Word of Wisdom), the Bhagavad Gita, the Qu'ran or the ancient Greek myths.

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-20-09 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm Catholic but had to choose "Other" because

the Bible hasn't *always* been an integral part of my life. I went through my Protestant life and then my atheist life and then I was drawn back to God and to Catholicism. That was twenty years ago.

It's not true that Catholics don't read the Bible but we don't take all of it literally. It's a collection of books, not including a science book, and Lerkfish described the contents of those books rather well:

"the bible is a mixture -- there are obviously provable historic facts from independent sources, like lineage and events, so those parts are literally as well as provably true.

it has allegorical content, like parables, prophesies and proverbs, which instruct by example analogy or thinking outside the box.

it has codifications of behavior, which should be taken in historical context.

it has inspiring philosophy and ethical standards."

All I can think of to add to that list is poetry, including erotic poetry. The New Testament has the teachings of Jesus, which are the most important part to me. Do I always live up to what Jesus taught? No, because His teachings are difficult to follow and I'm not perfect. I try to follow them because I know they're right. Some Christians follow them better than others but all those who are imperfect Christians are not hypocrites. Some are, certainly, but not all. It's not easy to live up to any detailed set of principles, whether they're religious, philosophical, political.

Reading the Bible helps some people live their faith better and it can help people when they have problems in life. But for about fifteen hundred years most Christians couldn't read the Bible, because they couldn't read and/or couldn't afford a hand-copied Bible, so they learned the stories from the Bible, the teachings of Jesus, salvation history, by hearing them from their priests and from other Christians who had heard them previously. Culture was still largely oral in the West in those centuries. Presumably, many Christians in third world countries with low literacy rates learn their faith the same way today.



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