What do you consider bullying? How much bullying is ok with you?

I seem to have little to no tolerance for it. Only in a very contained atmosphere, when it's done in a playful manner... that's about all I can deal with.

Recently we had that thread about catcalls, which is something I consider a form of bullying. Some people think it is no big deal. I wonder if it's not widely considered to be bullying behavior... or if it's at a level of bullying that people are comfortable with.

Another thread shared a certain author's ugly remarks (parents who think a particular movie is too scary should "go to hell" and their children should "wet the bed"). The author was cheered... however the words he chose IMO amounted to bullying behavior. It's one thing for him to disagree with those parents... but... "wet the bed"? Really?


So please tell me... am I the only one who thinks these things amount to bullying? Am I the only one who thinks we should maybe stop condoning bullying in which the participants haven't 'signed up' for it? (e.g. someone joining a raucous forum where bullying is encouraged and reveled in)

Bullying is anything that makes another person feel bad about themselves, or uncomfortable in a situation with other people.

My dh is a teacher and he flunks kids who bully. And they know it. Bullying has plummeted in his school. But there are types of bullying that are so subtle it's almost impossible to police them - a bump in the hallway, a glare or whispered comment.

Does he let his kids know that bullying leads to failure? Do the kids' parents know, too?

Too many people actively support school bullying these days. I'm wholly in favor of lowering the boom on the punks who do it.

DU can certainly be better than that IMO.

This is about the 3rd thread that mentions it.

That is a good thing ~ don't seem to see any Bu.lies on this thread/
What a relieve.

Using academics as punishment is unethical- a slippery slope that in the end, is counterproductive.

Most states won't let you fail a student for behavioral issues. If that's why you are doing it, you better have a grade book to back you up or your ass will get sued.

Funnily enough, "bullying is only okay if it is to stop someone from bullying someone else" is an almost perfect description of the way America sells its foreign policy...

using his weight and power to address issue.

it is not like the kids grades should be refletive in behavior, but academic success

The grade that a student gets in a class should reflect how well he learned the material, not how much his teacher likes him.

If the student is a bully, he should be reprimanded through the disciplinary system.

Law into your own hands, and all, but better this than a student taking a loaded gun and dealing with his problems that way.

I don't know, do we WANT schools loaded with beaten, harrassed and eventually dead kids? What does bullying teach, exactly (other than life under a Republican president)?

n/t

It is in many ways exactly the same thing. Those who cross Republicans, even if Republicans are wrong and their adversaries are correct, often end up the target of warfare and violence.

Textbook bullying.

if the schools can't come up with an effective disciplinary system, what are the teachers to do? the system used may get this teacher into trouble but I do give him credit for attempting to come up with something. Too many schools ignore the bullying.

Most of the kids are pretty good. Not perfect - substance abuse is rampant - but pretty good. There is the occasional bully, and the rare violent kid. I think the public image is that the high schools are just loaded with these particular problems.

There is a tendency in many schools to think of good grades as a reward for hard work and good behavior. Hard work and good behavior should be rewarded in school, but that isn't what grades are for.

:applause:

that the teacher finds offensive?

Where does it stop?

Not, for example, throwing farts at other students or throwing paper airplanes. If that's what you mean.

where all sorts of behavior is considered objectionable and zero tolerance rules the day in many districts.

??

find some things to be a form of bullying, while others take it totally differently. If we could define bullying for everyone it would be a whole lot easier.

Because there seems to be at least one bully in every thread. Bullying seems to be an action which is, in effect, being harmful to someone else and reaping enjoyment from their reaction. It's actually a very, very mild form of sociopathy - something that we're all capable of doing. The truth of the matter is that the bully is someone that feels very insecure about him or herself and acts out in this way because he or she is incapable of the internal process needed to handle their problems. They externalize it, and act aggressively toward others. They may even go so far as to blame their targets for their bullying because they're so inadequate in coping with their insecurities or refuse to do so.

This happens constantly on DU. A person will be unnecessarily ugly to someone else, and if they can elicit a reaction, they'll proceed to blame their target (typically the OP) for their behavior.

Fuck bullies.

Like Zoesiright said, it can be so mild as to be barely noticeable.

that suggested people are more likely to be aggressive on the internet than in real one on one personal communications. The study suggests people really are more likely to bully at the DU than they would if you met them in person. I'm not sure about the rest of the thread. Peoples tolerances and enjoyment of human behavior seems to be very variable. Some women I know are very vain and want attention for their physical appearance, some women I know deeply dislike catcalls. It's very hard to form a one size fits all rule to human behavior.

There's more than a touch of gang-bullying going on, too, although I've happily noted that much of it has ended post-election.

Your observation about sociopathy is interesting to me. I always felt that there was more than a slight element of dominance display involved and targets selected based upon availability and convenience. A bully is a coward seeking constant reassurances of their bravery and strength. They are excessively fond of guerrilla attacks, dog piling, and generally preying upon the wounded, timid or powerless.

If you are too dependent upon taking people down a notch without provocation in order to make yourself feel worthwhile, you've got the disease. I'm not sure that it's even necessary to observe the reaction, as long as the bully's presumption of entitlement is there.

It takes the incentive away from those who enjoy upsetting others here.

+1

Cyber bullies are cowards who go after degradation rather than lunch money.

I was about 12, walking to a babysitting job, and I can remember being surrounded and followed down a sidewalk by a bunch of construction guys hooting and making comments. And this was a long time ago -- girls dressed a lot more conservatively than they do now.

I just kept walking, but I was scared.

After that, the honking and other noisemaking when I walked around my town always unnerved me -- it always felt aggressive, not fun or friendly. What makes men think girls and women welcome that kind of intrusive behavior?

wives, daughters, sisters, being harassed? Would they excuse it as just 'boys being boys,' like when they do it?

At my age, it's no longer a problem, but when I was younger, like you, I felt cat calls were intimidating & frightening.

"score," but when some other man scores their sisters, daughters, etc....let's just say that's a horse of a different color.

Just like I don't think most bullies expect the person they're bullying to welcome that kind of treatment.

says a lot about them and their action,.

And it's bad enough when they do that to an adult woman, but to do that to a 12-year-old girl is just twisted.

developed. Their excuse might be they thought I was older. But I hated it just as much when I was 16, 18, whatever . . .

Plus, in those days I usually wore my hair in two pig-tails -- with ribbons!

You're right. They knew I was a kid. Eww. . . that's so disgusting.

I also remember the first time I got honked at by a truck driver. My first thought was that it was someone I knew -- who ELSE would be honking at me? (I was about the same age when this happened.) So I looked -- and this icky looking old guy (old to me, anyway!) was leaning out of his cab, grinning at me. I was so repulsed. After that, I never looked when someone honked. Just pretended it wasn't happening.

I don't get it either. I've never done it. It just seems the antithesis of class, so i have never done it, and never will.

Well, except to my wife, when we're at home!! :evilgrin:
GAC

children who have no boundaries as to how far they will take it. I have to admit that when I went to parochial school, I was fortunate that the nuns had zero tolerance for bullies. If they learned of any incidents no matter how seemingly innocuous, the bullies found out what the full wrath of Sister was. They also humiliated the bully by making them become servants of a sort of the kid they bullied, like carrying their books, doing their clean up chores and other demeaning duties. This was especially humiliating because the kid they had to serve was usually a class or two under them. Parent were also called to task and told their child would be expelled if they didn't learn to behave and if there was any retaliation toward the bully's victim. I gotta admit those nuns were pretty creative in punishing offenders. I don't think they did it out of compassion for the victim, though, but because they didn't want any injuries or law suits on their watch.

brb w a link

here it is

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/npd.htm

They are the worst of the worst...Bully Leaders have cost Humanity Millions of lives and life miserable for countless others...

to go to schools like that. In my school, it was strictly, sink or swim, i.e., if you were bullied, you had to beef up, fight back. :eyes: How constructive, huh? :eyes:

I believe bullies put down & intimidate others in an effort to feel better about themselves. I think it has become more common & often excused in our culture. When I was a kid, there were very few bullies & if bullying behavior did occur, it was quickly nipped in the bud. The old phrase, "boys will be boys" was reserved for what I would call mischievous behavior, not bullying behavior.

Here's a recent story about an alleged sexual assault case where the attorney basically claims that 'boys will be boys' so what his client did is excusable. Holy shit.

http://media.www.gwhatchet.com/media/storage/paper332/news/2009/10/15/News/Thurston.Intruder.To.Face.Grand.Jury-3803984.shtml

As a kid i was constantly bullied, because everyone knew I never fought back and was, well, I was quite small for my age. One kid had a penchant for punching me in the arm every time he passed me in the hall.

Until one day, a bully and 3-4 of his friends (they always needed their friends around them, for some reason) surrounded me, taunting, and eventually the bully pushed me against the bleachers. As they were looking down on me, I did something I never did. I hit back. Knocked the kid right off his feet. None of them ever bothered me again. Funny thing was, just before I swung, I yelled "Look out!". Like to warn him or something. I guess I just was not a very good fighter. But I could certainly defend myself.

A lot of kids I knew couldn't defend themselves, though, and it used to make me so mad.

Bullying to me is immature behavior and practiced by those that are egomaniacs, jealous or just plain assholes. Never did understand the concept of bullying.

I agree with everything you said and do definitely feel that catcalling is a form of bullying. The "wet-the-bed" and other comments makes absolutely no sense to me. I usually hear that from conservatives, not progressives, so I'm kind of surprised to see that kind of behavior here.

I had taken it from a kid who was exactly twice my weight for months.

One day I just had enough and went looking for an equalizer, a 2x4. Then I went looking for him.

After he got out of the hospital, his mother came over in high dudgeon swearing she was going to press charges, Junior in tow. My mother called me into the room and said nothing. The woman looked at me and looked at the bully boy, closed her mouth, and left.

It was beautiful, and that little prick never bothered me again.

The only way to get rid of a bully is to stand up to him. Once he realizes you're a tougher target, he'll go looking for somebody who isn't. You don't even have to put him into the hospital, that was overkill.

You're right about the catcalling, personal attacks, and minimization of another person's legitimate feelings. They're all bullying and need to be recognized as just that.

Child bullies generally grow up to be adult bullies. One thing I can say for certain about every single one of them is that they're all cowards.

Because I think of all the kids who did that to me when I was a kid, and I was not really bold enough to fight back. Not until I got to high school, and began lifting weights - I got pretty big, and people stopped messing with me.

Not only was he clobbered by a girl, it was a scrawny, undersized girl.

I guess it's never a good idea to piss off the Irish.

:hi:

someone who doesn't hold the same views as you, concerning child disciplinary issues and the state of our educational system. eom.

I have very strong views about spanking, but I am not intransigent.

As for our educational system... what? My views on that are far from cast in stone... what are you referring to?

But if you wish to cover your own culpable behavior up, I can't stop you.

I wish I could recall the name of the other DUer who seemed to think the same as you... at least about the spanking issue. Oh how I laughed when he realized his mistake. :)

The history's memory is better than yours.

Practice what you preach. That's all I'm saying.

Since I am not a hypocritical man, I would never write a thread like this.

If I cared enough about how wrong you are I'd bother with it. As it is... eh.

As for your inmplication that I'm hypocritical, what exactly do you mean by that?


Also, it's telling that you didn't explain what you meant re: the school issue.

Once again, your history here is open for everyone to see. Having said that, I am not accusing you of making a habit of mean or bullying remarks. You do need to move out of your glass house, though.

about whatever it is you think I said re: education.

Gee, I can't imagine why.

He was receiving a lot of pressure to somehow say he regretted the way the movie was made.

A lot of parent's wanted some sweet, sacharine version of his book -- which the book never was.

So, he told the handwringers in no uncertain terms to "buzz off" and for them not to bring their kids if they are worried rather than complaining afterwards.

Sendak has a long and storied career of standing up to bullies.....

From what I read, there were parents saying the movie was too scary (sharing their opinion for other parents who were looking for information about the movie, I'm sure)... and a journalist asked him what he thought about the parents' opinions and he got rude and nasty to those parents and their children.

But our definitions of what constitutes bullying differ. With rare exceptions, I would not describe even the most uncivil posts here to be bullying.

what kinds of posts do you feel cross the line into bullying?

What about the catcalls? Is that a form of bullying in your opinion?

HRC supporters being called "ignorant white fucks" for another.

I've never been involved in catcalls from either end, but I imagine they could/might be.

what the bully is about... i will always, always speak out to that person about the behavior or means of approaching the subject.

i. cannot. stand. it.

at all

not a little

on many of the threads on du, it is not the subject of the thread i am addressing, it is the behavior of a poster i am addressing.

I was raised in an atmosphere both at home and in school in which bullying was not only tolerated but encouraged... so I know that at times I will engage in it. Not proud of it, but I don't seem to recognize it while I'm doing it.

even in a disagreement, is a willingness to hear what the other is saying. not bullying. but i will. call you out. if i hear, lol. my issue is hypocrisy. ever hear me be a hypocrite, bully me. lol

I am fascinated by how people perceive these things differently. I need to go respond to jeff up there. :)

bullying. to me that is a loud and clear example of bullying. many people on subthread state good for them for stopping the bullying without seeing the bullying. one poster sees as i. so tell me, is that bullying.

if they were flunked for the entire semester or whatever grading period... that does seem to be going overboard IMO. But if it was an 'f for the day' kind of thing, then maybe not.

with the worst workplace bullying being public schools, of all places. Rampant, rampant bullying by not just teachers against other teachers or staff against other staff but by administrators against teachers, the most difficult of all to combat. It is difficult if not impossible because the relationship between principal and teacher is like master-slave. They have total control over teachers, and are confident in the knowledge the district will back up their wrongdoing every time.

and schools are where it seems to have become ingrained as acceptable behavior. We see teachers doing it to students (the bullying coach stereotype springs to mind)... and students getting away with doing it to other students far too often. It seems that most people consider bullying to be acceptable. I've always wondered if we could change things (perhaps even a lot) if we just stopped considering it acceptable behavior.

They pressure teachers to change grades, or cheat in some other way, or they simply don't like the teacher, and then they create a paper trail which is the first step to kicking the teacher out. They are confident the school district and thus taxpayers will foot the bill for the administrators' defense in rigged hearings, and they almost always win them. The court system is similarly rigged in administrators' favor because courts can't seem to understand that workplace abuse DOES happen in public education.

I hope that problem isn't so widespread.

And to add insult to injury, it's usually the target that suffers even after she leaves. People call it a "personality clash."
It's the bullying boss that's the problem, not a "personality clash."

And usually the bullying bosses continue to get good jobs. They rarely, if ever, have to face unfavorable consequences for their bullying. This isn't just in the private sector--it happens all the time in state/county/city governments.

Those that seek power are often more likely to be the type of personality to engage in bullying behavior.

n/t

If you're in an at-will, "right-to-work" state where employee rights is pretty much an oxymoron, good luck proving workplace bullying.

Unless you can get somebody on race or sex discrimination, you're pretty much screwn.

:(

If someone tries to bully me it's no skin off my back but I don't like seeing others get bullied. Sometimes it's hard to see the difference between bullying and just plain rudeness, but either one annoys me.

Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem with a fair and open dialog, that's why I'm here, but someone getting angry and name calling or bullying is never needed.

In MS, I was bullied to the point in which I was stressed simply to go to school. My frosh year in HS was about the same. Kids who are bullied deal with it in different ways-- some withdraw socially, others work out. I developed a sense of humor (memorized Steve Martin, Bob Newhart and Robin Williams albums, etc), and by the time I was a sophomore, I could disarm a bully in front of his peers, verbally humiliate him, make him look weak if he threw the punch, and sooner rather than later, I was safe. Popular, even.

Helped at school, but not at home-- my dad, being an ex-con had a peculiar outlook on the world and since even at that young age I was polite, respectful and well-mannered, he thought it was a symptom that I had Teh Gay. When other fathers were punishing their kids for getting drunk at HS parties, and keeping their dates out after curfew, he was actually relived-- thought it showed virility on my part, and would admonish me with a nudge and wink. He passed soon after I graduated.

But those few years gave me a terrible perspective on it. And that perspective is one of the (many) reasons) I hate talk radio and RW news editorialists-- because they are in fact, little more than bullies (much like a larger than handful of posters on DU who always seem to attack rather than discuss).

The catcalls thread illustrated to me the self-debasement of a few posters who, though I had not held in high regard, I did not hold them to the level of the base and the common as I did after reading that thread. And those individuals who attack, or justify the debasement of other I perceive as little more than abusers themselves-- the only difference being in kind and in degree. But the intent is same, and the hurt feelings are the same.

I don;'t really mind being the target of their bullying when it comes to that-- it means another poster doesn't have to face their ugliness for that specific time period, and as they are, for all intents and purposes, ineffectual, I chuckle to myself-- as they become little more than bugs on a windshield.

But I know other posters do get hurt by it. And it frustrates and saddens me that even amongst a progressive community, there are still those who would not only defend bullying by any other name, but actually engage in it on a daily basis.

You're not the only one, Red. Not by a long shot...

Also was stressed to go to school... and bullying continued even after I stood up to several bullies. I guess I went to big schools, and word didn't get around so fast. :P

I am addressing myself primarily to the group bullying phenomenon, not conflicts between individuals where one may or may not be bullying. Any time there's more than one person against one person, it's bullying, though.

I don't consider the comments of the author to be bullying. That's just a guy telling detractors to fuck off.

are you referring to the catcalling and things like that?


Also re: the author... he also insulted the kids ("wet the bed")... were the kids his detractors?

If three girls jump one girl.

If five guys jump one guy.

If a girl and guy jump a guy.

In my view, attacking in numbers is bullying, particularly where the target is one lone person.


Cat calling is bullying, of course, although mainly verbal with some threat of being physical.

Guys sitting on a porch yelling at gay guys walking past is bullying.

Of course physical violence... that's obvious.

But if it's just a group of people disagreeing with one person... that's something I wouldn't consider bullying... depending on what the person being disagreed with had said. Even if the tone of several of the people was very harsh, I still wouldn't consider it bullying... if what the person said was nasty enough.

If the person just says something innocuous and is jumped all over... then sure.

There's bad mouthing. There's calling someone names. If five guys yell "fag" at some kid walking past, it's bullying.

What do you consider bullying? Just kids picking on each other?

If your manifest intent is to cause fear, intimidation, or to destroy someone's reputation, then sure, it's bullying. If those are not your manifest intent then the waters get muddied. Are people really responsible for unintended effects or other people's perceptions? Especially, if those effects and perceptions were not their intent?

And I agree the waters definitely get muddied there... and that's probably why schoolyard bullying has been tolerated for so long. Bullies sometimes consider what they're doing to be just playing around and having fun... not trying to scare or intimidate... just joking around. But of course the kids they bully don't see it that way.

even stalked sexually assaulted then rolled and left for dead IRL? On a certain level - ? - I'm numb. Maybe between the (not you) mean girls and mean boys and the psychotic minions that look up to them and that sort of anti-social behavior egging them on; going numb is a form of defense mechanism. A downside to that is that the bully too often perceives that as an opportunity to carry on with even more elaborate more hurtful displays of their 'bad blood'. Externally?

I will not tolerate it and have left hubby rolling his 'dude, you're on your own now' eyes walked across rooms and into the faces of bullies telling them to shut the fuck up and leave people alone

Here's a sad story for the list posted today from here in my town



I do hear feel and understand you when you mention the choice of some poster's words meant to fly below the DU radar so they can maintain their pristine opinion of themselves, willfully torturing reason a bit longer they'll claim they're just concerned, passionate lib/pro whatevers :eyes: but are every bit as disruptive and intentionally hurtful = not good, though is a marker for what bullies are either here or IRL imo: they're chicken-shit

When I wrote this OP I was only thinking of harrassment type bullying... the stuff that happened to Hawkins is just unconscionable.

I had an uncle who died after being beaten up by bullies. He had a speech impediment from a cleft palate, and was beaten up often. :(

but I jumped on him and bit his face really hard. He left me alone until we were in high school and he threatened me again, so I punched his face. Problem solved.

I wish I'd thought of the face-biting technique. I just punched.

so I felt I had to send a message. Biting that bully's face was strangely satisfying. He was really freaked out.

for it. If it is a thread where the posters are writing for each other and to each other, you enter at your own risk, which is why I generally don't.

If I perceive someone as being bullying toward me, I generally tell them to knock it off in my own way. I think that people who bully think it makes them look smarter than other people and certainly they feel superior for that particular moment, but they are wrong. If they act with cruelty, they appear cruel and people generally dislike that.

In schools and social settings I have no understanding of why the bully wants to make a fool out of him/herself. If it is me they are trying to mess with I tell them quietly that I don't appreciate what they are doing and ask them to go away. Surprisingly, they almost always do. If they don't walk away I will. Most bullies are not that brave if you stand up to them and don't respond. That is not possible for children most of the time though, so they need some kind of protection.

too many of other things to read.

:hi:

That's not "bullying" is it?

EDIT: I'll either rec or unrec depending on your answer.

Stop it when it happens in front of you, but be aware that it will happen outside of your sight as well.

If he targeted a specific parent, it would be different.

and not worry about hurting other people's feelings.

I was bullied as a child, and I have even intervened in my neighborhood when I was witness to one child bullying another. No amount of bullying is acceptable.

If someone does it teasingly, then it's not really bullying, is it? It's teasing.

I don't consider catcalling bullying in most cases - I consider that more a reflection of the individual who is doing the catcalling, it's an indicator that this person has troubles with their sexuality or feels a need to assert sexual desire for women (typically, as a means of deflecting speculation about possible homosexual desires).

Maurice Sendak's comments were coarse and rude, but not bullying.

A necessary condition of bullying is that it occurs within an environment which the target of the bullying can effectively not flee from for a certain period of time. Catcalling and Sendak's movie do not meet that condition, IMO.

It's intimidation.

That is, the target of the harassing behavior or speech must state that they felt harassed?

It sounds self-evident, but the point is, whistles and calls of "very hot!" are unwelcome among some women. Are they being harassed? Yes.

However, anecdotally, I actually asked a woman I worked with years ago how it made her feel when she passed by construction sites and she got whistled at, and she giggled as she told me, "oh, I love that! I wave back!" Was that second woman harassed? No.

because we all have the ability to control our own DU experience. If you, or others, feel that they are being bullied by other posters, use the tools to eliminate the bullying. Alert, hide thread and ignore all allow you, or others, to escape any percieved bullying.

Unlike real-life, where many individuals can't escape from bullies, at DU we can.

Sid

:wtf:

button on bottom of your monitor, it's called the on/off function :rofl:

Would you consider catcalling bullying then? Since the women can just walk away, that must not qualify, right?

Same as bullying at the workplace, since an employee can just find another job?

so there is little she can do that is legal in terms of retailiation (other than catcalling back, telling them directly to stop, speaking with the crew supervisor, writing a letter to the contractor HQ, etc.).

The workplace is an entirely different matter. There are laws against hostile working environments. And people can't just go find other jobs. Especially if they have dependents. And in an economy like this with 20% unemployment? Tall order, that.

has no other choice but to walk by whatever group of men are doing it.

Interesting. That seems to me to be blaming the victim, but obviously YMMV.

And not everything considered catcalling can be considered bullying. These are types of speech that vary from class to class.

Some catcalling is pleasant and friendly. Other kinds of catcalling are abusive and unpleasant for the target.

Bullying encompasses some catcalling that is abusive and unpleasant for the target if, IMO, it is inescapable.

Catcalling that is abusive and unpleasant for the target but that only occurs after the target has passed out of earshot is not bullying - how can it be?

I am not blaming the victim; however, the definition of harassment is partially subjective - i.e., the target must feel harassed, or else it is not harassment.

Is that making any sense?

otherwise it's not bullying... that just seems unfair. Maybe 'blaming the victim' is a bit strong... but that's what it reminds me of.

IMO it's bullying full stop... and if a woman enjoys it then that's her problem to work on.

n/t

I said that there is no bullying at DU.

To me, bullying implies ongoing intimidation. A single incident, such as being catcalled, may be threatening, may be offensive, may be traumatizing, but IMO, it's not bullying.

Employees rarely have the freedom to just pick up and find another job, so often there is no escaping workplace bullying.

But those are real-life situations. There's no way that your anonymous on-line personna can be bullied, because you've got control of your online participation.

Sid

Edit: fixed wording

I somehow had the impression that you might have considered catcalling to be bullying.

mean that don't you (general you) dare think you are going to target me for bullying and get away with it. I will bust your ass so fast. So fast - I will be on the phone with authorities, contact whoever I need to, bust your ass and laugh at you the whole time.

They robbed me of what was supposed to be a formative and fun time in my life and turned me into a person that has an extreme distrust and dislike of popularity, authority figures and administrators that generally wash their hands of any conflict they're supposed to be intervening in. I got horrible grades as a result and also a strained relationship with my parents that took 10 years to repair completely. The reason being is because they took the typical approach of putting ME at fault for what happened to me and to this day they tell me to "Get over it".

What always galls me about these threads is the "shoulda woulda coulda suddenly tough guys". You know, the "I was miniscule and wimpy, but I stood up for MYself. And you know what? I never got picked on again. That's what EVERYone should do who's bullied."

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

We all like to dream how things ideally could be, should the right circumstances and the right amount of reliance in people's reactions to heroism come into play. But more often than not, standing up for oneself, however necessary and noble, often leads to consequences that could haunt the victim for months and years down the road.

School officials don't see "finally . . . he stood up for himself, how brave". They see "He FOUGHT . . . just like that other punk who was messing with him. And I'm sorry, but rules are rules. I got parents and a school board to answer to, and the sooner these kids become someone ELSEs problem, the better off I'LL be!" As long as this do-nothing attitude preveals among parents, police and school officials, bullying is NEVER going to get eradicated. Putting the onus on the victim to rely on himself to defend himself and then punishing him for doing so (which is most often the case) is never a positive and often dangerous solution. It could also make him a target.

Bullies don't and never have cowered down to their victims, that's just not what they do. It's also not in their inherent nature to pick on someone that WILL fight back, which the victimized aren't often able to do. They'll listen to one of two things - a severe assbeating with a weapon that puts him in the hospital (and no one wants it to come down to that, because that leads to expulsion and then arrest for AWIDW of the victim in the real world) or, ideally, jail time. Because let's face it: what the bully is doing is committing a CRIME. They need to be TREATED as a criminal and locked up in juvie with real criminals to calm their ass down. Officials and counselors there can then asses what's wrong with the kid and his homelife.

The solutions counselors offer to deal with bullies are laughable ("Use your words") at best and dangerous at worst. I mean, adults, parents: do you HONESTLY think a sociopathic fuckhead who has no care in the world and thinks he's invincible (because after all, the way a school deals with a bully is to punish the asshole AND the victim) is going to all of a sudden stop bullying a kid if said victim tells bully "you're hurting my feelings"? What the hell planet are you living in? In this one, that's pretty much giving the asshole carte blanche to ramp up his assholiness and have his asshole friends join in on the fun.

These solutions are nothing but not-so-concealed victim blaming and puts the problem OFF of the people it SHOULD be on - parents, adults and administrators. Bullying should be treated and considered what it actually is - assault. If you put your hands on someone who did not ask for it, it is ASSAULT, plain and simple. Assault is a crime in this country, last I checked.

It should not be brushed off as "children will be children". That's merely aiding and abetting, because all that does is continue the bullshit unabated.

Don't have me run schools. You beat up a kid that didn't fight back just because you have unresolved anger issues? BUH bye! Go pull your bullshit in some other school. You're in school to learn, not make life miserable for the undeserving. And none of this horseshit of suspending the innocent kid either. "Rules are rules" my ASS. Review the case thouroughly and then make a decision; don't ruin the tormented one's life sight unseen.

Long, drawn out, embarrassing and expensive.

I was bullied and fought back... and got in trouble for it... and on top of that the bullies never let up. My dad beat the extreme distrust of everyone into me early though so I can't blame the bullies for that.

I agree that the most popular solutions are woefully inadequate... most of them seem to me as if they're basically condoning the bullying behavior... considering it just "children will be children" as you put it. These aren't toddlers... they're old enough to know right from wrong.

You wrote:
"School officials don't see "finally . . . he stood up for himself, how brave". They see "He FOUGHT . . . just like that other punk who was messing with him. And I'm sorry, but rules are rules. I got parents and a school board to answer to, and the sooner these kids become someone ELSEs problem, the better off I'LL be!" As long as this do-nothing attitude preveals among parents, police and school officials, bullying is NEVER going to get eradicated. Putting the onus on the victim to rely on himself to defend himself and then punishing him for doing so (which is most often the case) is never a positive and often dangerous solution. It could also make him a target."

You also wrote:
"These solutions are nothing but not-so-concealed victim blaming and puts the problem OFF of the people it SHOULD be on - parents, adults and administrators. Bullying should be treated and considered what it actually is - assault. If you put your hands on someone who did not ask for it, it is ASSAULT, plain and simple. Assault is a crime in this country, last I checked.

So a victim, unable to escape, quietly takes verbal abuse daily for months ... and finally defends himself, then is punished for defending himself, you say that punishment is not good, but you also say it is assault and needs to be punished. You deem such a repetitive instigating bully an "innocent" in your last paragraph.

The victim never asks to be a target. He's often tossed into that position without any say.

Perhaps I should have been clearer in the last paragraph: "innocent kid" means the victim OF bullying. Often times, and this is what galls me about zero tolerance, is that when a d-bag beats a harmless victim up, BOTH participants get in trouble no matter how one-sided the fight is. That's what I meant by "let's not ruin the victim's life because his attacker couldn't control his anger".

In my school days, the victim was punished, and the bully was deemed innocent. That is probably why I noted that potential in your words. The idea of punishing both of them was not practiced.

Words are often so imprecise, and perceptions being what they are, sometimes it's difficult to understand someone else's point-of-view. I'm sure you're glad that you were able to patch a relationship back together with your parents, even though it would have been better had it not taken 10-years to do so. Life is often unkind to us, and for each of us, usually in somewhat different ways.

In a perfect world, there would be no bullies or victims, and therefore no aggression that would escalate from verbal to physical, and this would mean no war. We are a long way from that utopia these days. How do we get there from here, and how many more "mistakes" and consequent lives ruined do we need to arrive?

and I no tolerance for it.

People who complain about Where the Wild Things Are.

They're the reason everything's got to be watered down. Everything's got to be covered in Nerf. Everything's got to be pink and cuddly and speak in a squeaky voice and pronounce all the "r's" as "w's." It's because of them that everything's wrong with Disney. Everything's got to be vanilla flavored. And only luke warm. Everything's got to be non-threatening. And non-challenging. And non-good.

Fuck the lot of them.

Those parents can go to hell.

Parents of children who can tolerate scary stuff would have just ignored it.

Why does it get some people spittle-flecking mad? Overreaction to things often indicates some kind of unresolved personal issue relating somehow to whatever is causing the overreaction...

Looks like you're the one over-reacting.

allllllrighty then.

Clearly, there are differences of opinion within the current DU community.

I was the youngest of five kids. We were poor, as the railroad my father's family worked on for generations had closed shortly before I was born. My early years were spent in the largest "low-income" neighborhood in this part of the state. Then, my father went way in debt, buying a few acres, and materials to build a house.

We had a small farm. My "new" clothes were hand-me-downs from older siblings (hence, at very best, a couple of years "out-of-style.") I was always hungry, and we never had anywhere near enough food. And I had a miserable speech impediment.

Poor kids, wearing old clothes that just don't fit, and who smell of farm, are often the ones who get picked upon. Especially if they can't talk right.

However, farm kids who grow up in a family that boxes (several generations!), and who have a large chip on their shoulders do not necessarily make safe targets. And, oh, I could fight. Yes, I could. Be it one fool, or two or three, I would let my fists and feet do my "communicating": "Do not touch me. In fact, do not look at or talk to or about me."

The other kids who got picked on sure liked me, because that chip on my shoulder did not allow me to remain idle when I saw others become victims. But, of course, I was never accepted by the majority of kids, and sure as hell not by the school system. I was viewed as a "problem." And I suppose that I was.

Just a kid with troubles... there are many.

I had the clothes that didn't fit but didn't smell of the farm at least. But alas, I couldn't fight very well. I did my best, though.

In high school I was involved in what you might call a gang of nerdy boys. When any of us got hassled, even slightly, we all took immediate, massive revenge on the perpetrator.

We did things to their parents' homes, then called the parents on the phone and said something like "Ask Billy why we did it."

As an adult, the moment I perceive bullying behavior from a person I immediately cut off contact. In July I broke up with a woman over her abusive behavior. I simply kicked her out of my life.

Pre-emptive if you will. Saying cruel things about children to criticize parents falls under that definition.

Catcalls are bullshit. I was doing yardwork this summer and here I'm almost fifty gottdam years old and I get--attention-- from a few fucking idiots. When I was younger, I'd say fuck off, or give 'em the finger, but Jesus Christ on a stick I'm so done with that shit, and NO it's NOT a FUCKING COMPLIMENT goddamit. I went in to the backyard. I--Me-- who never backs down, backed down. Maybe next year I'll be to old (One time a couple years back during a walk, I had a vehicle of tipsy landscapers turn around and give me a small bouquet of flowers. It was sweet, no catcalls, no stupid lines, just a small gift of flowers)

I can't stand bullies or bullying behavior. In fact, I have my eye on my grandson right now. He's ten, he's good in school, good at most sports-- athletic, the little girls all like him-- yada yada, but he's been developing some physical aggressiveness. He likes mixed martial arts, (somewhat better organized fight clubs if you ask me) and is in Judo right now.

He's not a bully, but I'm seeing the ingredients for one. He FEARS being bullied as he enters middle and high school. We've talked about it. I don't want him to join the side of the assholes out of self protection.

teaching people what I was taught about bullies. As soon as you stand up to them it stops. Standing up to them may mean a punch in the nose :shrug: but it stops the bullying.
on edit- Of course with adults this won't work (punching in the nose I mean :) ) But the victim has to take some kind of action. The perpetrator isn't going to stop just because........

they were dismissive, but not threatening.