They only had 46 firearm homicides in Britain last year. The lowest since the late 80's

"Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms last year was the lowest since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded 590 homicides last year."

<http://www.star-telegram.com/190/story/71387.html>

Wonder what they're doing right? They only have a third of the murders we do.

<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>

Gee, that's some mystery isn't it?

I hear machete homicides are up though. Not exactly common either, but they do happen.

Those damn revolutionaries...if they'd been disarmed you'd be pledging allegiance to the Queen.

couldn't those have been prevented if everybody was packing heat?

:sarcasm:

http://www.lacountymurders.com/

Estimated population of L.A. County in 2006: 10,245,672

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_County%2C_California

Britain provides its citizens with a social net that helps those who are isolated and left out. I lived there many years ago. People were poor compared to Americans. With two salaries we had to live in a tiny bed-sitter in a not too desirable part of London. But it was safe to take a walk in the wee hours of the morning if you felt like it.

We have a society that seems to thrive on finding ways to leave people out. Then we get upset those people don't have any stake in the society and act accordingly.

Even with greater overall wealth, LA county has about 5-6 times as many homeless as all of Great Britain, though it only has a fraction of the population. In so many ways, we have a really screwed up society.

That would make a nice dent in the numbers of homicides in the US.

They also have very strict licensing laws and follow-up with gun owners every few years - you don't just hand over a little bit of ID, have a cursory background check run on you and off you go, toting your gun!

we can try to override the 2nd amendment and ban firearms or we can allow people to own them as we presently do. Surrendering personal freedom, for me, is not the answer. Even though I realize that a society with easy access to guns will have some deaths as a result, I still chose individual freedom over a ban.

Arming everyone means a lockdown society. That's why the reason the present situation is so great for the present fascist in power. Think Bush is scared of the second amendment? Hell, he was cheerleading it on the same day as the tragedy.

Fuck yeah, I'm pissed about people like you.

32 dead kids and you got NOTHING to offer besides your own selfish piggish priorities.

write out a list of other dangerous items or products you dont like, and we can have the government ban those also. I hear cars are very deadly, as is alcohol, cigarettes, etc. It's so nice to have other people decide for me what I can and can't do. Thank you Big Brother.

Sick NRA propoganda.

Fuck you and the organization you support which made this fresh American tragedy possible.

You have blood on your hands. And I suspect it's not the first time.

Gun lovers = blood lovers.

I'm gonna fight you and your ilk. Until I draw my last breath.

Gun lovers are truly sick people.

Tough shit.. deal with it. :nuke:

This kid went to a "gun-free zone" and murdered 32 people. BTW, murder is highly illegal.

But people like you who have the knee-jerk "let's ban things" reaction, can't use a little common sense.

You'd have us believe that this kid would read the "gun-free zone" sign, think "Oh well, I guess I can't kill anyone today" and go home, which is complete nonsense.

Don't shove your knee-jerk nanny-state reactions down other people's throats, particularly when the available evidence indicates that banning guns would NOT have stopped this from happening.

Some DUers care a great deal about the 1st, 4th and 8th amendments, but they could give a shit less about the 2nd. We can't pick and choose our freedoms. They are there, and we have to protect all of them.

Don't you DARE spew your sick NRA propaganda to me.

People who support this kind of sick massacre just so they can extend their penis length by walking around with a gun in a holster make me literally sick to my stomach.

Hear this message from me and hear it well. I will fight you and your ilk until I draw my last breath.

Your time of orgiastic gun play is nearing an end.

And then...what will you do? What will you do without your precious gun?

"We need to ignore the 4th Amendment to protect you!"

"We need to take away habeas corpus to protect you!"

"We need to take bypass the 5th Amendment to protect you!"

and so on, and so on...

why don't you tell the class how many rapes and robberies and murders were caused last year because of the 4th Amendment? You know, that pesky "individual freedom" that the Bushies hate so much?

do you mean you'd prefer to be killed by a gun rather than surrender your right to own a gun? I kinda like the idea of living free from worrying about my family or I being killed by a gun. I guess, since I don't own a gun, I don't see it as surrendering anything to begin with.

But it makes getting bullets and weapons that much harder through education and training.

I hate this simplistic faux analytical discussion you through out there.
Thank you, the ghost of Charlatan Heston.

Since you people have killed the middle class we are losing that
American independence that made us free be it economic or social.
Either you are rich or you don't get it.


Your individual "freedom" is not the limit of your social responsibility.
that is not what freedom means and is selfish.

The future always belong to the children.

They paid the price of your freedom.

Because nobody in America ever wants to talk about what other countries do to successfully have low violent crime rates.

but I hear the dental plan over there isn't that great.

:shrug: The richest country on earth can't take care of it's citizens. Might interfere with campaign contributions..Only country in Westernized world that has no dental plan. Yea us...

every man is required to have a gun. I have never heard of any big crime wave over there. It's the damn violent culture in this country not the guns, for Christ sake I don't know how many people I heard say we should nuke Iran for taking the British Marines captive for a couple weeks. We just have f---ed up society. How many countries have we bombed since WWII 40 or 50 something isn't it?

The Swiss are changing their laws to EU style laws and debate is on about removing the milita rifles from homes. From Wikipedia:

Approximately 300 deaths per year involve the use of Swiss army guns, mostly suicides and family murders.<2>

Gun control advocates are trying to halt the practice of private military gun storage at home; gun supporters question the statistics.



These rules will be changed — presumably in 2008 — because Switzerland will be joining the Schengen treaty; and all member countries must adapt some of their laws to a common standard. Following the draft of the Swiss government for the new Waffengesetz (weapons law), these points will change:

* Unlawful possession of guns will be punished;
* Gun trade among individuals will require a valid buying permit (under today's law, persons with a criminal record can trade guns);
* Every gun must be marked with a registered serial number;
* Airsoft guns and imitations of real guns will also be governed by the new law;


<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland>

see anything baning so-called assault weapons or handguns.

300 is lower than the 590 quoted above for NYC and the first number includes suicides. There were about 600 per year in NYC in the 1990s, 120 of them involving guns. So 300 compared to 720.

Recently a star skier was killed by her husband with one of miltia guns and there's a movement to end housing rifles in homes.

Skier's murder prompts Swiss women's campaign for ban on guns in the
Independent on Sunday, The, Oct 22, 2006 by Ruth Elkins
---------------------snip---------------------------------
There are about two million firearms in the homes of this peaceful nation. The reason is that all men in the Swiss army reserve are required to keep their semiautomatic guns at home.

Now, Switzerland's biggest women's magazine is leading a campaign to tighten what they see as the country's archaic gun laws. They want lawmakers to create a national gun register and ban loaded weapons being kept in the home.
---------------------snip--------------------------------
There are more and more homicides in the home and more and more of the victims are women," says Lisa Feldmann, editor-in-chief of Annabelle. As well as having one of the highest gun-suicide rates in Europe, Switzerland has more women shot dead than almost anywhere in the West-locked ern world, many of them after arguments with men.

The wake-up call for Swiss women came with the killing of alpine skier Corinne Rey-Bellet earlier this year. She was shot dead by her army reservist husband 10 days after leaving him. Gerold Stadler, who also killed Rey-Bellet's brother before committing suicide, used his service pistol.
--------------------snip-------------------------------
<http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20061022/ai_n16799500>

All Swiss citizens are required to do service in the national military. After they are trained, they are required to keep their guns and some ammunition (sealed) and remain available for the militia until they are 30 years of age (34 for officers).

After that they may choose to keep their guns or hand them back.

So, Switzerland actually practices the "well-regulated militia" idea, while strictly controlling guns.

they chose?

And if they don't - they're in violation of the law. And the firearms laws are actually enforceable in Switzerland.

But most Swiss don't have a mania for guns. They're just tools to be used for militia, armies and law enforcement.

And, as such, they've spawned a gun club hobby industry. But it's still a hobby - not a way of life.

culture, I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard someone say we should nuke them every time we have the smallest disagreement with another country. I heard at least dozen people say nuke Iran for taking the British marines captive. You can't even reason with these people if you say what are you going to do kill 10 million innocent people because their countrie's leader is a little nuts? The answer, "we should kill all the f---ing rag heads" this is one f---ed country IMO.

It's not so much guns. Some other countries have almost as many guns. It's the idea that guns "solve problems".

The difference is the acceptance of guns in everyday circumstances. Guns permeate the culture and are considered by some to be necessity.

No, more than that - gun ownership is almost a duty.

that a required. I had a roommate from Bern who said it was only the men that had to serve. And of course, only the able-bodied ones.

is that the movie wasn't as much anti-gun, but asking why gun violence was so high in the US as compared to other countries. What is wrong here with our society?

We just saw Bowling for Columbine. Michael Moore actually points out how relatively easy it is to get a firearm in Canada. They have a lot of hunters. Yet they have no where near our firearm violence. What is WRONG with us isn't JUST gun ownership or not, it's something much deeper...part of the very weave of our culture. There is a sickness here that doesn't exist a lot of places. NO ONE wants to talk about it. Something is wrong with the American mentality. I truly believe that.
Lee

pick a country, Japan, UK, Germany etc. their crime rate would still be minuscule compared with the US. We have had two Asian mass murders in the last couple years, they come over here and something happens to them. Look at this country we have bombed 40 or 50 different countries since WWII, we are the only country that ever used a nuclear weapon. We invade Iraq a country we starved into 3 world status and was basically unarmed. With our smart bombs we take out a suspected group of insurgents from 30000 feet and kill dozens of Innocent people in the process. How do we really know their was anyone there in the first place. In Iraq if you have bone to pick with someone all you have to do is tell the US they are a terrorist and we are happy to kill them and their whole neighborhood. Now we threaten Iran from trying to build a bomb and we say they can't be trusted with such power. The only county Iran ever bombed that I know of was Iraq after they were attacked. It's sad 32 people died at VT but twice that many Americans have died in Iraq so far this month, where the hell is their memorial service where is Bush when they are buried?

Yep. it's easy access to guns is what happens to them.

We loose around 80 people a day to guns, America is losing more people to guns here than in all the wars we're involved in

wouldn't have the problems we have.

It seems the apologists for weak gun regulations hate America or Americans, cause they blame everything but the actual bullets that do the killing. It seems ireland can have almost no gun crime cause they have almost no guns but the same genes transported to the US turn into gun wielding killers.

9. We will not take away your hunting guns. If you need an automatic weapon or a handgun to kill a bird or a deer, then you really aren't much of a hunter and you should, perhaps, pick up another sport. We will make our streets and schools as free as we can from these weapons and we will protect your children just as we would protect ours.

<http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2006-11-14>

except by special permit, second a criminal would probably prefer handguns were illegal to own he will get his anyway and he will know you are unarmed. It's the states that have the most restrictive gun laws that have the highest murder rates. If you want another Republican elected in 2008 keep quoting Micheal Moore.

Here are how the states ranked by murder rate for 2005 (most recent year with data fully compiled) from the FBI website. I believe you will see the bulk of states with the most restrictive gun laws are in the middle, and more in the lower half than the upper half.

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_05.html
Rank - Rate - State
1 - 9.9 - LOUISIANA
2 - 9.9 - MARYLAND
3 - 8.5 - NEVADA
4 - 8.2 - ALABAMA
5 - 7.5 - ARIZONA
6 - 7.4 - NEW MEXICO
7 - 7.4 - SOUTH CAROLINA
8 - 7.3 - MISSISSIPPI
9 - 7.2 - TENNESSEE
10 - 6.9 - CALIFORNIA
11 - 6.9 - MISSOURI
12 - 6.7 - ARKANSAS
13 - 6.7 - NORTH CAROLINA
14 - 6.2 - GEORGIA
15 - 6.2 - TEXAS
16 - 6.1 - MICHIGAN
17 - 6.1 - PENNSYLVANIA
18 - 6.1 - VIRGINIA
19 - 6.0 - ILLINOIS
20 - 5.7 - INDIANA
21 - 5.3 - OKLAHOMA
22 - 5.1 - OHIO
23 - 5.0 - FLORIDA
24 - 4.8 - ALASKA
25 - 4.8 - NEW JERSEY
26 - 4.6 - KENTUCKY
27 - 4.5 - NEW YORK
28 - 4.4 - DELAWARE
29 - 4.4 - WEST VIRGINIA
30 - 3.7 - COLORADO
31 - 3.7 - KANSAS
32 - 3.5 - WISCONSIN
33 - 3.3 - WASHINGTON
34 - 3.2 - RHODE ISLAND
35 - 2.9 - CONNECTICUT
36 - 2.7 - MASSACHUSETTS
37 - 2.7 - WYOMING
38 - 2.5 - NEBRASKA
39 - 2.4 - IDAHO
40 - 2.3 - SOUTH DAKOTA
41 - 2.3 - UTAH
42 - 2.2 - MINNESOTA
43 - 2.2 - OREGON
44 - 1.9 - HAWAII
45 - 1.9 - MONTANA
46 - 1.4 - MAINE
47 - 1.4 - NEW HAMPSHIRE
48 - 1.3 - IOWA
49 - 1.3 - VERMONT
50 - 1.1 - NORTH DAKOTA

<http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_hom_tot_num_of_vic_percap-total-number-victims-per-capita>
Notice seven of the top ten states for murder have weak gun regulations and 16 of the top twenty.

You'd rather blame this tragedy on one thing only, which is completely dishonest.

Indai has more poverty and class issues than the USA but we crush them anyhow.

I was simply stating what IS in Bowling For Columbine. Period. There is something much much deeper wrong with this country than JUST it's gun ownership or we wouldn't be owning so many guns. We are sick fuckers with little regard for life and much regard for material objects. We're bullies; we're conquerers; we lack compassion, humility, in-depth analysis of complex issues/simple-minded and we're mean-spirited. Even YOU, Mr "I am better than everyone else because I am pious and holy", because you don't explain things with patience or kindness. You simply accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you of being right-wingers or brainwashed by right-wingers, which is condescending, arrogant and obnoxious. You're no pacifist. You're a pedant. I hate guns JUST AS MUCH AS YOU DO, OH SANCTIMONIOUS ONE. I just think that there are cultures where you could drop every gun in America on and they still wouldn't have the violence we have. There is something deeply ill about American culture.
Lee

Guns are sold to solve problems and make a lot of money for corporations.

My point is, you could give all these guns to another culture and they still wouldn't kill as much as we do. Something much deeper and sicker is wrong with America.
Lee

I'm so sick of apologists for weak gun regulations blaming Americans for our absurdly high murder rates. In fact the USA, Canada, the UK, New Zealand and Australia have almost the exact same percentages for assaults, it's gun related things and murder that the US stands apart.
<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita>
<http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita>

In Canada, as Michael Moore pointed out, they do have guns and they still don't kill the way we do. NO ONE is talking about assault. We are ALL talking about murder. Psychology is my field. WHY could we dump all these guns on others and they still would NOT have the same murder rate we have? Go watch Bowling For Columbine. We JUST saw it again. This is exactly what Michael Moore is questioning. Something is deeply wrong with our culture.

You are like speaking to a brick.
Lee

HERE'S ONE OF MANY QUOTES

9. We will not take away your hunting guns. If you need an automatic weapon or a handgun to kill a bird or a deer, then you really aren't much of a hunter and you should, perhaps, pick up another sport. We will make our streets and schools as free as we can from these weapons and we will protect your children just as we would protect ours.

<http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2006-11-14>


THEN HERE'S A SYNOPSIS OF A BROOKINGS INSTITUTE STUDY

Compared with other developed nations, the United States is unique in its high rates of both gun ownership and murder. Although widespread gun ownership does not have much effect on the overall crime rate, gun use does make criminal violence more lethal and has a unique capacity to terrorize the public. Gun crime accounts for most of the costs of gun violence in the United States, which are on the order of $100 billion per year.

<https://www.brookings.edu/press/books/evaluatinggunpolicy.htm>

I am very aware of his positions. Evidently you are too much of a brickhead to understand what I am saying. Jeez. I just will ignore you from now on. You're a pedant to the point you can't even grasp what someone else is saying.
Lee

Go watch Bowling For Columbine. He makes BOTH points. Evidently your little pointed head cannot grasp TWO points...thus my giving up on you completely. You win The Obtuse One award. He makes TWO Points. Guns are bad BUT some people can have them and still not kill with them. America has a deeper problem. Get it? Read my lips. TWO points. That would be TWO points. Understand yet?
Lee

Here's a Harvard study to support my position

"Statistically, the United States is not a particularly violent society. Although gun proponents like to compare this country with hot spots like Colombia, Mexico, and Estonia (making America appear a truly peaceable kingdom), a more relevant comparison is against other high-income, industrialized nations. The percentage of the U.S. population victimized in 2000 by crimes like assault, car theft, burglary, robbery, and sexual incidents is about average for 17 industrialized countries, and lower on many indices than Canada, Australia, or New Zealand.

"The only thing that jumps out is lethal violence," Hemenway says. Violence, pace H. Rap Brown, is not "as American as cherry pie," but American violence does tend to end in death. The reason, plain and simple, is guns. We own more guns per capita than any other high-income country—maybe even more than one gun for every man, woman, and child in the country. A 1994 survey numbered the U.S. gun supply at more than 200 million in a population then numbered at 262 million, and currently about 35 percent of American households have guns. (These figures count only civilian guns; Switzerland, for example, has plenty of military weapons per capita.)

"It's not as if a 19-year-old in the United States is more evil than a 19-year-old in Australia—there's no evidence for that," Hemenway explains. "But a 19-year-old in America can very easily get a pistol. That's very hard to do in Australia. So when there's a bar fight in Australia, somebody gets punched out or hit with a beer bottle. Here, they get shot."

In general, guns don't induce people to commit crimes. "What guns do is make crimes lethal," says Hemenway. They also make suicide attempts lethal: about 60 percent of suicides in America involve guns. "If you try to kill yourself with drugs, there's a 2 to 3 percent chance of dying," he explains. "With guns, the chance is 90 percent."
------------snip-------------------
<http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090433.html>

not that many people think of owning one (no obsession with bearing arms). I'm not sure of the stats on how many people have a gun legally or illegally but I think it would be low compared to the US.

and libertarian sites, you think Great Britain was bucking to be the Iraq of the EU and London was Baghdad on the Thames.

They have to fake people into believing that they're the majority when in fact they are a decisive minority, even in the republican party. they have a paid for megaphone from corporama enhanced by big media. Check out this quote from an assault rifle website:

“Remington has spent tens of millions of dollars defending our Second Amendment rights to privately own and possess firearms and we will continue to vigorously fight to protect these rights,” commented Tommy Millner, Remington’s CEO and President. “As hunters and shooters of all interest levels, we should strive to utilize this unfortunate occurrence to unite as a whole in support of our Second Amendment rights.”

<http://www.ar15.com/>

Oh, I forgot the context, the unfortunate incident he's talking about isn't Virgina Tech but the faux paus well respected hunting journalist Jim Zumbo made when he said the obvious, that assault rifles had no place in hunting. For that he was crucified by the gun lobby and has since "recanted".

annual kill rate of England/Wales. :-( An amazing statistic. If you normalize to the US population, their gun deaths would still be significantly less than the number murdered in NYC.

Fat lot of good they've done, LOL

Gun loving New Orleans is the worst and yes Richmond Va is worse than DC and Gary IN is worse than Chicago
Many of the guns used in NYC come from Virginia , in fact New York has been sending law enforce to Virginia to what is going on there.

This is why I have no worries about whatever we end up doing, since whatever it is that we do will only cause more problems. Ban guns, don't ban them, regulate them, don't regulate them, put a camera in every house and on every corner, or don't do that. Can you see any "solution" not resulting in bigger and more complex problems? I can't.

or see guns as some sort of totem of masculinity.

They have no rights! They are squashed and unable to defend themselves against foreign invaders, criminals kicking down their doors and raping their daughters, they are held up daily by well-armed criminals that they can't shoot it out with!

Pity the poor Brits living in a state of unbridled crime and anarchy.

Watching them everywhere they go. I'd think an anarchist would have problems with that.

But, even with the surveillance cameras and those dreadful gun-bans that don't allow the citizenry to shoot each other, I would hardly consider the Brits living under the heel of tyranny.

Just sayin'... :shrug:

Of course, crime rates are much worse now then they were before the gun bans were passed in '97.

http://www.gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
England: According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its gun ban in 1997.

* The United Nations confirmed these results in 2000 when it reported that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States.


Violent crime rates in England.Wales have risen DRASTICALLY since '98 - just about doubled!!!
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page66.asp

* Of these, 17 per cent were common assault (including assault on a constable) and 20 cent harassment, both of which involve no physical injury to the victim. In addition, many of the 'less serious woundings' (43 per cent of violent crime) will have resulted in minor injuries, such as bruises, grazes and black eyes.

So 37% of the assaults result in no physical injury, and 43% resulted in minor injuries such as bruises and black eyes, which means that 80% of their so-called "violent crimes" wouldn't even need medical attention.

We're not talking about Jack the Ripper-type crimes here.

Per capita murders are higher than here in the US. By an order of magnitude no less. <http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita>

Hmmm, can't blame it on the guns, so what do you blame it on? Could it be that Russia, much like the US has its population living in a pressure cooker of stress and strain, thus driving their population over the edge into madness?

Naw, can't be, it's gotta be the guns:eyes:

Their homicide rate in 2003 was 100% what it was in 1967.

Our homicide rate in 2003 was 11% lower than what it was in 1967.

In 1967, our homicide rate was 8.5 times that of the UK. In 2005 it was 3.5 times that of the UK.

They are getting worse, not better.

Oh, but I forgot... you don't care if more people die, just as long as they aren't killed with guns.