I feel sorry for the family of the shooter

My sister is schizophrenic. From the time she first got sick until we finally had a diagnosis it was 5 long years. She started college but couldn't finish. She came home and she would be fine for months, she would go out and get a job or enroll at the community college and do fine. Then all of a sudden, she would be in her bedroom for days, not talking to anyone. She wouldn't eat and she was smoking 4 packs a day. She threatened suicide 4 or 5 times.

My parents nearly died from the stress. They took her from doctor to doctor for 5 long years. Finally, they got a diagnosis and she went to a psychiatric hospital and slowly, they found the right combination of drugs to treat her. That took several years. She was hospitalized for 8 long years.

That was 30 years ago and we still have to remind her to remember her meds, go to her doctor, etc. She is considered a high functioning schizophrenic and does well. But it is still a challenge and was probably the worst trial my parents had to deal with.

So I can't help but think about this kid's family and the agony they must be going through today. They had to know something was wrong. Did they try to talk him into getting help? If he refused, there wasn't much they could do. It is nearly impossible to get anyone declared incompetent. Yes, we tried that with my sister more than once. Once time I even asked the lawyer if she had to hurt someone for a judge to declare her incompetent. The law is very tricky.

So I think I understand a little bit how this kid's family must feel today. Thank God my sister never hurt anyone but I really feel the agony of this family today.

My son is 23, same age as the shooter. As a father I can only imagine their horror and pain.

:hi:

I feel for his parents and wonder how they could handle such a blow.

In our society, there seems to be a natural tendency to want to "hate" someone for doing something as horrendous as this. But behind the salacious details and tantalizing clues the shooter left is a horrified and grieving family who, because their son did this, may not be offered the same sort of grief support and care the families of the victims are. The families of the Victims are asking the eternal "why?", but the family of the Shooter is asking the same question only on a different, more confused and more powerful level perhaps.

hospitalized in N. Virginia where they live (someone posted earlier and I think Huffpo may have it too)

Nonetheless, I hope they will eventually be able to release a statement through a family contact... I think that there is a need to hear from them and similarly, for them to express their own feelings.

:shrug:

just a theory.

:-(

But my sister has come up with some bizarre delusions that are not even close to being based in reality. At one time, she thought my dad was in the mafia. He was a middle school principal who had never even received a traffic ticket. We didn't know anyone connected to the mafia. So who knows where she got that idea.

1) My dad was trying to kill her.
2) Their best friend was trying to kill her.
3) The USAF and military doctors were trying to kill her.
4) UFOs were trying to help her escape those trying to kill her.
5) My grandparents were insane.
6) My brother-in-law was in league with the devil.
7) I wanted/needed her to come live with me.
8) Some poor anonymous family down in Guaymas, Mexico wanted to adopt her (she moved in with them, and when she left, she gave them her car).
9) Some rancher in Alpine, TX thought it was ok for her to move into the bunkhouse and live with the hired hands.
10) My sister and I were trying to steal he money and make her homeless.
I could go on for days.........

She had some rather convincing arguments for many of these delusions.

tell what is grounded in experience that happened on the "outside". :(

(the VT shooter) compared himself to Christ, I also am wondering if he was not undergoing a schizophrenic slide. From what I understand, there are often religious delusions associated with the disease.

Thank you for the OP, P2BL - I have been struggling with this. I suppose is is natural to want to strike out and condemn, but I am uncomfortable feeling that way. This terrible thing made me more judgmental than I wanted to be. The fact that he was obviously ill had so far tempered my reaction, but those videotapes chipped away at that. Your post brings me back some focus, for what it's worth.

Whatever his issue was, it is obvious the system - such as we have for such things - fails in certain, devastating cases. My heart and prayers go out to all of the families involved in this tragedy. I thank you for reminding me that his family suffers too, and in a different way.

Peace.

on edit: clarity

to think you are Jesus Christ.

He's been comparing his "martyrdom" to everyone else.
On a less snarky note, I'd been wondering why we hadn't heard from the shooter's family. They must be devastated.

Then again, he could have just read or heard about something somewhere and became fixated on it - you never know when a person is sick like he was.

She turned out pretty well. Not exactly the product of an abusive household, but who knows?

"Iraq link to campus killer Cho

The sister of the gunman responsible for the deadliest shooting rampage in modern US history works as a contractor for a State Department office that oversees billions of dollars in American aid for Iraq.

Sun-kyung is employed by the Iraq Reconstruction Management Office, according to US officials and a State Department staff directory that says she works from an annex near the department's headquarters in Washington.

Messages left on her office voicemail, in which she identifies herself as "Sun Cho", were not immediately returned today.

Spokesman Sean McCormack would not discuss Sun Cho's status but told reporters, "This person is not a direct-hire employee of the State Department."

He refused further comment, citing privacy concerns. Other US officials confirmed she worked for a contractor.

The office was set up by President George W Bush to coordinate the reconstruction program in Iraq and offers jobs to "highly skilled and motivated United States citizens" to work at the US embassy in Baghdad, Iraq, according to State Department documents..."

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,21584526-5001021,00.html

I didn't mean to diagnose him. I meant to say that I know how his family must feel, as having a family member with a mental illness is horrific.

I teach special ed and also know how difficult Asperger's kids can be.

It's the silence thing that gives it away. Retreating inward is a classic Aspie response to repeated rejection, bullying and social abuse. I know I did. But I am not a paranoid schizophrenic, which Cho almost certainly was, not to mention the type of depressive who internalizes to a certain point and then explodes. I am the type who has an apparently infinite capacity for internalizing misery.

Asperger's or high functioning autism + paranoid schizophrenia + severe clinical depression that manifests outwardly could very easily explain what happened at VT.

My coworkers thought I was crazy when I said that earlier! I suggested a mild autism, like Aperger's, and they looked at me like I was nuts. I guess when they thought "mildly autistic, like Asperger's," they assumed I meant "catatonic." Maybe, if others out there had the same thought, I'm not crazy.

It was the dialogue in the plays that first gave me that impression. It wasn't the violence or the sex references. It was the WORDING.

People go off on rants about fags or faggots or queers or gays. They don't use the word "bisexual" in a hostile situation, for instance.

For the record, I've read thousands, maybe even millions, of incredibly bad lines of dialogue from students. Much of it contained inappropriate, violent, sexual, or otherwise graphic imagery. But even bad writers, even genuinely stupid people, have some understanding of the cadences and nuances of human speech. In poorly written stuff, it usually doesn't sound natural or realistic, but the writer usually has a sense of what simple human interaction SOUNDS like.

Not so in Cho Seung's case.

My suspicions grew even worse after seeing the video and reading NBC's excerpts from his poetic-pictorial thing, and heard his roommates discuss how he had no problems communicating electronically, but was apparently incapable in person.

That poor dumb bastard. He's got a mental problem (Asperger's or otherwise), plus no friends, plus no family nearby, plus he got beat up a few times by some assholes in middle school (pretty much the years a person's self-esteem are developed), plus girls made fun of him a couple of times. It's a wonder he didn't go off sooner.

I'm not trying to excuse what he did, or lessen the pain that the hundreds of grieving family members must be going through, but I don't think that sympathy is mutually exclusive.

knowing first hand what schizophrenia does to a person, having had a family member with it. Mental illness is not easy to deal with or treat. I hope people don't blame his family. The horror of what their son did will haunt them forever.

There have been reports that Cho was on or once was on medication and was also referred to the schools counseling department. We don't know enough of his history yet to determine much about what could have been wrong with him mentally.

In my opinion, anyone who would kill as he did obviously has something mentally wrong. I know that many people are saying not to blame this guy if he was mentally ill because that would be wrong. But if he knew he had problems, was taking medication for it and refused help, is it right to place the blame of what he did elsewhere?

From what I can tell, he had a girlfriend, she broke up with him, he went and killed her then went back to his dorm, wrote out a note and went on a killing spree. It is hard for me not to put the blame on him.

I heard that they were just friends.

It was on some blog. I guess you can take it with a grain of salt right now though.

http://southernsassoncrime.com/?p=704

I feel very sorry for their neighbors, and the school that he attended, which also lost two former students in the shooting.

The Amish community opened their arms to the family of the shooter after their school tragedy. They even went to his funeral. They made it clear they forgave the family and had no ill will towards them. They shamed the media into leaving them alone and not blaming anyone but the shooter. But I fear for this Korean family, the media will hound them.

it's really a shame.

That family must feel like the whole world is against them.

I was so deeply moved by their strength and courage. I remember thinking that was what "faith" was; not some pretty word tossed around on mega-preacher shows. That was the REAL thing, and in action no less. What a timely reminder, riverwalker. Thanks for bringing that up.

the ones who begged that the shooter kill them and spare the younger girls; so sad.

So many views, so many opinions, so many ways of asking why. May all of the victims of this untimely death rest in peace, their loved ones find peace and yes the parents of Cho, who will bear a great burden may they also find peace. Thank you for your thought proud2Blib.

:hi:

It's possible. My dh is a therapist, so I can tell you what I know from his experience. It is not uncommon for general practitioners to treat things like depression and make no referral for talk therapy. Sometimes, it's because the GP doesn't make the referral, but sometimes it's because the GP can't make a referral. For example, my sister is a pediatrician, and she's had situations dealing with depressed teenagers where she couldn't find a psychiatrist with an opening in any less than 3 months.

Another issue is insurance coverage. Mental health treatment is the "red-headed step child" of medical care, and many plans have cut behavioral health coverage in an attempt to control health care costs. So, a GP may want to make a referral but the cost of care will be a barrier to treatment.

Most GPs are just not well trained in how to screen for mental health issues, and I believe they should not make prescriptions of psychotropic meds without referral to a psychiatrist for a full medication evaluation. My dh has encountered many situations where a GP prescribed the wrong medication (an anti-d for someone with anxiety issues, for example) or prescribed a med that was either too low a dose or not a good match for that patient.

In this young man's case, however, his issue sounds like it involved psychosis. Depending on how/if he presented to a GP, if disordered thought patterns were identified, then most GPs would have referred him to a psychiatrist. If the young man was able to hide that, he may have presented as simply depressed. If that's the case, a scenario such as you describe is possible.

This sad situation has brought up issues regarding gun control in this country. I wish it would also stimulate a national discussion about how we deal with mental health in this country.

That may be very common.

"The Chicago Tribune reports that Cho Seung Hui, the Virginia Tech shooter who killed 32 fellow students in a shooting rampage, was taking antidepressant drugs. This is not the first time a school shooting rampage has been linked to antidepressants. The infamous Columbine High shootings took place almost exactly eight years ago, and the shooters in that rampage were also -- you guessed it -- taking antidepressant drugs."

http://www.newstarget.com/021798.html

:hi:

six months ago out of nowhere, I have gone crazy trying to get her help, she doesnt see she has a problem and I am told cant do atnything.

Just curious.

I have no legal rights only she does.

PM me if I can do or say anything to help. I know how you feel.

is that I honestly feel that more people need to be aware, I am so sick of people constantly blaming the family without probable cause simply based on their own narrow views...life is just not that simple...

I have had a few friends tell me that they would pray for me, for me, a life long catholic and once firm believer it only riled me, I thought to myself many times here lately, if prayer was so wonderful, there would not be so much hatred and violence world wide, it leaves one with the feeling of being let down far too many times, I've kind of lost that faith and I don't honestly see getting it back...

Simply because how in the world could I live with myself believing prayer helped me to have the things i want in life while another remains wanting...its too strange and if you think about it clearly no one is more deserving than another...

I just have no wish to play that game any longer, I realized one thing, people always talk about religion when they fear the unknown, they use it as a safe blanket of security, and good for them if that is what they need but don't force me to follow rules that I no longer believe is fair to everyone which I am more concerned about..

I am taking my situation minute by minute, doing what I can, ignoring what I can, right now she is out and about ranting about knowing things others don't after going to an animal shelter to get a kitten and instead of the eighty dollars it would cost they wanted three hundred, little things like that send her over the edge, doesn't take much these days...

My mom was able to sign a waiver form to be involved in my care. I am 23. Luckily I wanted her involved b/c I was freaking out. However, don't get me started on doctors and their diagnoses -- it appears my mental changes were due to a thyroid issue which I found out runs in my family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_thyroiditis

Even knowing about the above, the psych-docs clung to their diagnosis/pills, and I had to fight to get off drugs I didn't really need. Try being taken seriously when you think it's possible you've been misdiagnosed with a major mental illness and not sounding like one is in denial. It is not fun fighting to prove you are physically and not mentally ill.

Anyway, the moral of my story is that getting her a physical exam with blood work is really important and not something a lot of pros will outright mention. Get with the OB-GYN too. "Girly" hormones / thyroid hormone / mental health issues have a lot of overlap for women. Don't let them just pat you on the head and send you off with drugs. Be aggressive about ruling out physical causes one at a time. List other symptoms besides mental ones. A psychiatrist will not necessarily advise you to do this.

//disclaimer: not med. advice, YMMV. Meds do help, not anti-meds, I just got the wrong ones for the wrong condition.

Best of luck with your daughter becoming well!

Have him/her order a complete metabolic panel and thyroid studies to start.

Sometimes what we believe is manifesting itself as schizophrenia or BPD or bipolar disorder is in fact a hormonal disorder or an endocrine one.

Best to you. PM me if I can help you. :hug:

Now everyone will be wondering if his step dad really did molest him,due to the plays he wrote.

Mental illness is as tragic, random and blameless as cancer. It can strike anyone, any family any time. I feel for these people, and even the shooter who, if truly mentally ill was a victim as well.

I can't imagine what a nightmare they are going through.

He didn't work. He didn't have a job. He was extremely anti-social yet they gave him a credit card that he could then go and use at a gun shop. Too bad they didn't bother to see what he was using the charge card for.

I have a lots of sympathy for lots of people. Just not them.

in that. Lots and Lots of college kids have credit cards (much to their dismay later. :P ) I blame the greedy credit card companies for that stuff.

This was a horrible tragedy even for his family.

or co-sign for it. If he didn't have a credit card, he wouldn't have been able to buy a $500 handgun. Oh yeah, he bought bullets too.

I don't feel a bit sorry for these people. They were the ones that had him and raised him. They knew he was whacked and didn't do anything about it. If they didn't know he was whacked, that's even worse.

make jillions of dollars off of dumb kids who start charging pizza delivery and new clothes without means of paying the bills. I knew lots of kids who got credit cards in college without jobs, and that was 18 years ago. I had a job that paid next to nothing and still got a card with an ungodly credit limit. The companies *want* you to get into trouble.

And even if his parents did get him a credit card, that's not at all uncommon. You may not agree with the practice, but LOTS of parents get cards for their kids while they are in school. The idea is for them to buy books, food, bus tickets home, and for emergencies. His parents may not have even received the bill for those gun purchases yet, so you're making a huge leap to be blaming them for this.

What can they do under the law? Everything legally possible seems to have been done, but when one is an adult, others around them can only do so much.

He was a college student. No all college students have jobs. He needed to buy things like groceries, person items, books, etc. Obviously, yes, he bought a gun with that credit card, too. So, were the parents suppose to have ESP? Hindsight is 20/20.

I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for all people involved in this- including the gunman's parents. They will have to live with the fact that their child, the child they loved, cared for and held as a baby took a gun and killed 32 other people in a massacre. Don't think for a second they aren't questioning every decision they ever made and every word they ever said.

Edited to add:

He just recently bought the gun. perhaps the itemized bill hasn't arrived yet? Or, maybe they pay like we do, paperless and online. I don't always get a run-down of my purchases.

We were very close and I did not know just how bad off he really was. Over the years his condition got worse and his family got him on medication but he was almost 30 at that point. Shortly after that he committed suicide. It's not always that easy to tell when loved ones have a problem like this. You shouldn't be so quick to judge others.

shame on you. His parents and his sister did not do this thing, or cause this thing. They are suffering more than you can imagine, and they don't deserve your scorn.

When I took my son to college I walked thru the booths that were set up for orientation day - lots of credit card companies pushing account on the kids.

He was not underage so his parents wouldn't have to co-sign

There were vendors signing people up for everything from credit cards (usually you also get a free t-shirt or water bottle) to newspaper subscriptions that lined the street outside both the early enrollment areas and then again a few months later when you were trying to make it to a building to pay fees and get books. Hell even the almuni associations of most universities try to get kids hooked as undergrads.

They hand out credit card applications like candy to students. In addition to handing out applications at enrollment/orientation/fee payment events, they also mail offers to you, they stick inserts in the college and local papers, they show up at events like sporting and movies to sign people up. They also have people who go through campuses stapling offers for credit cards on bulletin boards everywhere. When I lived in an apartment building that catered to students they came through the parking lot and put offers on all the windshields: cars, motorcycles with fairings and mopeds with fairings.

Quite possibly the most idiotic post of the day. Yeah, they should be reviled. :eyes:

I'll just bet you have all kinds of empathy.

Parents owe it to society to raise children that wont go out and create terror and horror.

Just judging your stupid post.

Welcome to DU btw. :hi:

:rofl:

Good grief. Think about what you are saying for just a minute.

people did she kill?

So yes, I suppose she could have bought a gun with it. But I think we have more restricted gun laws here in KS. So I doubt very much she would pass the background check.

As a parent it's my most important goal to raise kids who won't hurt other people -- but if my 20-yr-old had a psychotic break, I might not have as much control over the situation as I would want.

It's every parent's worst nightmare. Personally, I'd probably not be able to live if my kid did this.

Your entitled to your opinion but do you have to be so rude about it.

feel at all sorry for his family.

I don't say something like this very often, because I truly mean this when I say it. But after reading your posts to Proud2Blib and others on this board, I think that you are being very mean and spiteful. I don't know why you have chosen to be this way, but your posts are mean. You like attacking other posters on this board. And I hope if your family ever finds themselves in a bad situation, people will extend more kindness to you than you apparently extend to others.

Are you villifying his family or the credit card company?

for him to get the credit card. If he didn't have the credit card, he wouldn't have been able to buy the gun.

1) You're assuming college kids have to have jobs to get credit cards. Credit card companies haven't haven't required this since at least I was in college *cough* 25 years ago *cough *

2) You have to have a credit card to get a gun. If he was that ill (and all indications are he was) he would have gotten a gun by fair means or foul. If he didn't have a cc, he would have gone to the black market (that the serial #s on the legitimate guns he did buy legitimately were filed down so as to be unreadable is evidence of that.)

If only he had done poorly in school, he couldn't have gotten accepted to VT, maybe that's next - how dare those parents think he was OK when he was able to graduate from high school and get accepted into a college?

I also never stated he would need a credit card to buy a handgun. The thing is, that's how he was able to get one. Normally the cost of a gun stops someone from getting one. In this case, he somehow had a credit card that allowed him to easily buy one.

This is a person that everyone who came into contact with thought he was a weird and a nut case. As soon as the story broke, people who knew him immediately thought it was him. Imagine that.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for the parents when they above anyone else should have known that their boy had some major problems.

that in the credit card situation he was no different than any other college student. There was nothing that made him stand out in that way. You're chasing your tail around the wrong parked car here.

Your blaming if his parents is misplaced and at the moment, cruel. IMO. We don't know what they were thinking about all this.

Somehow I doubt they thought about him buying a gun.

In fact, when credit card companies go to college campuses, they don't always require a co-signer. That's how my roommate got into credit card trouble. If only her parents had been co-signers, they would have out a stop to her ridiculous spending.

EVERY college kid as long as they are living and breathing is eligible for a credit card.

It's part of the credit card's desire to trap them young into the pay with plastic mode.

They don't give credit cards to people without an income unless someone else co-signs.

:eyes:

They sent a pre-approved application to my 10yo daughter. So, what are you saying again?

that it is actually pre-approved, right? You actually have to fill it out with information including income level. Try filling out that pre-approved application and with zero income and see how quickly it gets denied.

I called the CC company in question and answered the questions about address and that was it.

Then, I told them that they had sent it to a 10yo.

I had a credit card in college freaking 8 years
ago with no income and no cosign. You are digging
yourself deeper.

Been very interesting reading this. Everyone else is wrong and you're the only one who is right.

Interesting.

I know it is hard to believe, but up until a couple months ago, you could get a $350,000.00 mortgage in New York State without credit, income, or a co-signer.

Peace and low stress to you. I pray for those in need of God.

They probably thought that he'd use it for going out to dinner or taking ski trips.

Who wants to think that their son is a potential mass murderer?

The shock and shame that the family is feeling now must be almost more than they can bear. They don't need strangers going all hard-hearted on them.

All college students are supposed to be permanently broke and starving???

:shrug:

Everyone and anyone will give you one. You can't walk through a university building today without seeing all sorts of signs posted on the bulletin boards for instant credit cards. It's sad - and what causes so many students to fall into the debt trap (along with student loans).

Welcome to DU!! :hi:

I just don't think the shooter's family will get much sympathy.

and the people who witnessed this or are otherwise adversely affected. Imagine having a class one of those rooms where people were killed. Although your class may be held at different hour and a different day, you still have to go back into a room where people were murdered. It does affect some people that way.

I had a prof about ten years ago who was a student at UT when the water tower shooting occurred. I wish I could remember her name. She was a law prof who taught at Norte Dame for a summer session (torts) before going back to teaching at South Dakota University that fall. It had been close to 30 years since that shooting when I met her and it still affected her.

This must be a terrible time for them and will probably haunt them for the rest of their lives. That being said, I hope the Rita Cosby's of the world leave them alone.

And even more knowing what their son has done. It's a tragedy. :(

And in the midst of all the prayers for the shooting victims, I've said a prayer for them, too. In a way, they're victims too.

I was married to a very high functioning schizophrenic.
The insanity didn't emerge until after our marriage.

I too, feel for the parents of the shooter.
This is in addition to the grief for the families of the victims.

My God, they can't turn on the TV without hearing/seeing
AD NAUSEUM what their son did.

Thank you so much for caring and showing another
person(s) perspective.

:pals:

First, I don't think he was schizophrenic, as he pulled off a strategy developed over time that he clearly planned and executed long in advance. Premeditation, all the way. Schizophrenics can't control the timing of their episodes, so this doesn't fit at all.

Second, something is missing in his upbringing that created such an angry person, that made him such a reclusive, and insular. This must come from his home, and the way his home related to the larger world. He didn't grow up in a void, he grew up in a family system, with a role to play in that system. He was sick long before he got to college, and his parents didn't seek the help he needed to get better, for whatever reason.

There is a lot more to this story, and it hasn't been told.

The OP is making an assumption that is unsupported, that the situation in this family is just like theirs. Where is there any evidence of that?

And what is your knowledge of family systems theory? Dysfunctional kids are often the product of a dysfunctional family. They don't drop out of a clear blue sky.

out of the clear blue sky.

Your assumption that mentally ill kid = fucked up family is overly simplistic. If you knew anything about the dynamics of risk and resilience, you'd know that.

The family could well be part of the problem.

Before we have all the facts? Some people have mental problems that spring up out of a vacuum, but more often than not I think there are some contributing factors in cases like this. The parents had to know something wasn't right with their son.

I have a sister who is bipolar. Once, about 15 years ago, she went through a dramatic decompensation episode. I was living 1300 miles away at the time. Surprisingly, family members living near her didn't realize what was going on. It wasn't until she called me and her disordered thought patterns became evident during our conversation that it was clear she was having problems.

I have a stepdaughter that is bipolar with psychotic episodes. Sometimes an episode creeps in so slowly that those around her don't notice the gradual change in her personality. Then there are episodes that seem to spring up over night. You can't always tell when an episode is coming and you can't always predict how severe it will be.

so easy to detect in one's family members are usually people with no experience in the matter. It's a lot more complex than they would like to believe.

I'll never forget that conversation with my sister. It started out so completely normal, and then became so abnormal. She didn't have any idea that I was sobbing at the other end of the line. :-( It was frightening.

The good news for my sister is that she has been well-maintained on meds since. She's now in her mid-40s and is a successful researcher. I hope your stepdaughter also does well in the future.

:hug:

and was very delusional. She ended up in another state. Fortunately I have relatives that live nearby and once we found out she was on a bus they went out armed with leaflets with her picture and contact information. They found her wandering near the bus station in the company of a couple of unsavory guys. Someone had already called the police presumably because her companions were drunk and obnoxious. My darling stepdaughter did the absolutely wrong thing at the right time. She started arguing with the police and eventually shoved one of them. My relatives stepped in and showed them the "missing" posters they had worked up and convinced the cops to talk to my husband. He explained what was going on and the cops called in the crisis team. She was taken in for observation and was kept until she was stabilized. We heard it all over the cell phone as it was happening. I never felt so helpless in my life.

Unfortunately for us, she's over 21. We've tried the court route to get guardianship over her but haven't gotten far, despite the fact that we have documentation that she's been institutionalized several times and, most recently, was held by another state's court for mental health treatment.

on edit: the day before she became delusional she was fine. There was no indication of what was to come. None whatsoever. And having my background I'm usually one of the first to spot one of the episodes starting because I notice small changes in her personality. I've got a sister who had a severe head trauma (hit and run by two cars, one car knocked her off the sidewalk and into on-coming traffic where she was hit by yet another car). Since her accident she has episodic personality disorders caused by the injury to her brain. It's like all of a sudden she thinks differently. I helped take care of her after the accident for a while and I got accustomed to noticing small changes.

:-( How absolutely terrifying for you and your husband. :-(

A situation like that can go wrong so quickly if the police aren't trained to deal with the mentally ill. I have a cousin who is also bipolar, and about 2 years ago, he was off his meds and barricaded in an office alone. He was threatening the officers with a stapler, but other than that he was unarmed. Despite the fact his sister was outside and told them he was bipolar, the police shot him with deadly force. By the grace of God, he survived. :-(

My sister who is bipolar has a 17yo who is also showing signs, and in desperation, they had to send her to a long term (~18 month) residential program in another state. One concern they have is getting extended custody once she turns 18, because they know that once she's an adult, many of their options will evaporate.

Many hugs to you and your family. Only those who have dealt with these issues can truly understand.

:hug:

(edited because I made the stupid assumption Mabus was a man. :blush:)

if I hadn't been a part of it. She's very bright and talented. And then there are the dark times. She's blamed me for her parent's divorce (not realizing that a divorce was already in the works when I met her father) and treats me like shit. What's weird, is that when she's having an episode I'm the one that can calm her down. My husband thinks I intimidate her. I feel like I put on my Nurse Rachet persona. I stay calm, I talk in a monotone and basically just take control. Sometimes, depending on how she is acting I question what she is saying, sometimes I validate it. I have to read her and figure out what to do while I interact with her.

To tell you the truth, I think I developed some of my instincts on handling her by acting as appellate counsel for inmates at USP Leavenworth for a few years. At least twice a week (sometimes three or four) I'd have to visit with clients in the federal pen. Most of the time I met with them in the general waiting room. But, on numerous ocassions, I was involved with groups that necessitated that I go into the bowels of the prison. I visited the dental lab, the building where they made Kennedy's desk, classrooms downstairs, the gym (that was for an inmate pow-wow) and the auditorium. I've been the only person/woman, in the company of one guard, sitting in the middle of about 40 male prisoners (most of them lifers) in the auditorium for up to three hours at a time. I learned quickly how to take charge, gain trust and not pee in my pants. I've also visited patient/clients at the prison mental health facility and other prisoner/clients in state prisons (Lansing and El Dorado). Not to mention the county lock-up. Oh man. County lock-up can be a zoo. Not to mention "roll-call" on Monday mornings.

it's usually the family who has enough contact to notice them at all. No doc or therapist with even a once a week appt can catch them as well or as early. :(

My husband makes it a point to go for walks with her several times a week and they go out to dinner at least once a week too. She's living in a student co-op. Her roommates are aware of what's going on and they've been a great help. Several of them have bipolar relatives and so they know what to look for. They were the ones that alerted us that something was going on the last time. All of them said, that up until that morning, she was fine. All of a sudden she looked up, her eyes were twinkling and she started talking a million miles an hour. Boom! It was that quick. Before any of them could figure out what happened she was up and out the door. They formed into several search parties after they failed to find her on foot in the neighborhood. One of them stayed at the house in case she showed back up and then called us, her mom and the police.

Then it was off to the races for the following 36 - 48 hours while we tried to figure out where she went. We had police in three states involved. Several of her housemates thought she was heading to the airport in KC because she had recently talked about a plane trip she had taken a few years before. She had also been talking about going to Mexico someday. It wasn't until late in the day before we found out she hopped on a bus with a ticket to Dallas. It wasn't until the next day until we found out she had gotten off in OKC. Of all places, it is where my parents moved to and most of my siblings live. I called down told them what was happening. I then e-mailed the most recent photos we had and within an hour one of siblings and his girlfriend were at the bus station with the "missing" posters. They spotted her and her now found companions on their way back to the bus station, by the time they got parked and to the station the cops were trying to take one of her friends away. They had gotten kicked out (and the police were originally called) of the bus staion, went to a liquor store (thankfully my stepdaughter was drinking otherwise she might have ended up in a drunk tank instead of the hospital) and came back in time for everything else to converge at the right time. Half an hour later and my stepdaughter could have been on a bus to Little Rock. For some reason all of them had tickets to Little Rock.

Once Doug was SO convinced that I wanted to harm him in some way, so he hit himself over the head with a pot, called the police, and laid down and bled on the kitchen floor while I was out at the store. I was arrested for assault when I got home. :wow:

And stayed arrested until the responding EMTs told the cops that this guy wasn't unconscious, that he was faking. And, there's a bunch of those stories.

:hug: to you and to your family. We get through this because the other options aren't as attractive. PM me if you ever need to brainstorm. I think I still have a brain that can do that. :silly:

I've been worried about something like that happening. It's one of the reasons that I make sure I'm never alone with her especially when she's delusional. She has one constant theme: paranoia. Her two most prevalent variations of her paranoia are fairy tales and religion. There are times when she starts talking in fairy tales. She's always someone being held in the tower by some evil woman (usually her mom). She gets afraid that her food is poisoned and she won't eat. When she does eat she will force herself to vomit to get rid of the poison. Then there are times when she becomes overly religious. She'll anoint herself (usually baby or massage oil) and then commences with her exorcisms. She hangs religious symbols from Hindi to Catholic and begins praying. One time she got into my stuff and sprinkled my ceremonial tobacco and then set fire to most of my pine, sage and sweetgrass. I'm Arapaho and I practice, as much as possible, the religion my mother handed down to me. My stepdaughter goes back and forth between me being an evil pagan and being too cool for words.

She went through a period where she was stealing my bras and panties, taking hair from my brush and, although I can't prove it, I think she was digging in the trash for my old sanitary products to get menstrual blood. I found the bathroom trash bag upstairs in her room. She was going through it when I found her (I was calling her for dinner) and she claimed to have lost an earring (but she doesn't wear them). There was also the fact that she had pulled several of my used products out and had them lined up on her pillow. I think she was trying to cast spells on me. And I'm not sure if all the holes she made in the backyard were a part of this ritual. She started it about the same time she was going through her witch phase. She used a melon baller to make them. They were beautifully spaced. No real pattern that I could discern but I told her she had done a good job. She was damned proud of those holes, so thought I should tell her she did a good job.

I have had to hid kitchen utensils (especially the knives) more than once. She had a whole cache of knives, screwdrivers and hammers under her bed one time. That freaked me out. She said she was planning on remodeling her room. I suggested she start with paint. We went and picked up paint samples but she was already on to something else by the time we got back home. When she stays here we use plastic knives, forks and spoons. We also eat a lot of sandwiches and salads to we can discourage her from using the stove. I've gone so far as to unplug it so she can't use it. Otherwise she does her cooking experiments. She likes making brownies. I think my favorite are still the brownies she made with brownie mix, a large can of peaches, almost two pounds of gourmet coffee beans, a dozen eggs, carrots, corn flakes, spaghetti sauce and chocolate sprinkles. She had it set to bake for 6 hours at 550 degrees.

Sometimes she suicidal. Sometimes she full of love and gives away everything she has: her money, her clothes and once even her hair. She cut it all off and was offering it to the birds & squirrels to build their nests. Sometimes she's selfish. She stole her sister's car once. She was going to drive to Ireland, find her soul mate and get married. She got a flat tire and left the car (running) in the middle of an intersection a few blocks from home. That was okay though because she had already changed her mind. She wandered into the first building she found, a fundamentalist church :eyes:, and decided she was going to become a full time evangelist/exorcist.

And when she's like this she never remembers much of anything later. She has time lapses. We don't. I wish we did. I really do.

After this last episode they put her on lithium and she appears to be doing really well on it. At least, it's been almost two months and she's still taking it and making her regular appointments to therapy. I got her to keep a journal. I check it from time to time. It's been a good barometer of her mental state. I got her to start one during one of her episodes. She was talking about all the bad things in the world. I got a notebook out and got her to start making a list of what she saw was bad. Believe it or not, it helped calm her down and get her focused. Later we discussed the list. I can tell almost as much by how she writes as what she's writing about. That is, when she uses it. I encourage her to write. I think she could write some pretty good children's stories. She loves kids and wants to be an elementary teacher. I tell her to jot down story ideas, interesting conversations she has and to draw. In other words, we keep as close an eye on her as we can but even then, stuff happens. You know how it is.

Nope, there's never a dull moment. Everytime the phone rings it could mean the circus is back in town and we're plunged into another exciting adventure. :P I guess if I wanted to, I could walk away. I love my husband and this is his daughter. I didn't know this was part of the "package" when I fell in love him but it is and we're in this together. I refuse to live in fear and dance on egg shells. I can't worry about a knock on the door or the phone ringing.

Besides, having a bipolar stepdaughter has been good training for living through this administration. I'm never sure what's going to happen next, but I know I do what I can to stop bad things before they happen, and I try to live a good and happy life in the meantime.

No, we don't have all the facts.

But, even though my family wasn't perfect, I don't blame them for my imperfections. I guess it's different for people coming from dreadful & abusive backgrounds. Sincere sympathy!

I noticed that some people, when it came for exams, especially if they were hoping to graduate that semester, got stressed out a lot. Some otherwise normal people became neurotic. And some of the normally neurotic people started developing full-time psychoses. Some people became anti-social, closing themselves off to study or get drunk/high/escape. Some people became very social, hoping to either find a new friend and a way to pass a tough class or to have an excuse as to way they failed ("I just met so-and-so and didn't have time to study).

I went out of state to go to college. I knew I was the only one from my high school going to KU. I did know some people in town, having spent summers here, but when I got here I knew I was on my own. I knew that my being a somewhat popular, yet quirky kid from my high school meant nothing. Essentially, I got to start a whole new life in a whole new enivironment. I thought it was great. In many ways I found out who I really was during that period.

At the same time I was learning how to get along in the bigger world I met some fellow students that were having trouble transitioning from being a big fish in a small pond to plankton in an ocean. Their previous skill sets weren't getting them anywhere in college. All of a sudden they weren't the smartest kid in the class, the funniest or the teacher's favorite. Most of them got over it and found their niche. Some of them I don't think will ever get over it. I met some kids who claimed they were dullards in high school but who readily made friends in college.

As for the parents knowing, that isn't always the case. Different people have different breaking points. And people are smart. We learn to hide things. I had a bipolar friend who told me that in high school she would tell her mom and dad she was going out with friends. She wasn't. She didn't have any. She would tell her parents she was going out with friends so her parents wouldn't worry about her. She spent her time walking, going to movies by herself or hanging out in the library. As long as she told them she was doing things they thought were normal and expected her to do at that age, she knew they wouldn't worry and watch her so much. She said it came in handy when she was depressed too. She was able to go off and hide for long periods and cry, write her suicide notes, cut herself, etc. She'd just tell her parents she was going to go hang out with friends. The parents weren't concerned because she was doing "normal" things. They didn't know. Her sister didn't know.

... It's of course perfectly possible that someone else's experience was different than mine.

who has no idea what the hell they're talking about.

For if the family was truly an innocent victim, then it has to be affecting them as badly as anyone else or worse.

On the other hand, if it can be found later that some family abuse or neglect of his condition contributed to the situation yesterday, I think that calls for global introspection that we all have with our own families and realize the consequences of any such actions, if in fact that is what lead him to become the mess he was that committed this horrible act.

Even if they were guilty of neglect, or worse yet things like sexual abuse, etc. we should step back from that and not say that they were wanting such a tragedy to happen, and my bet is, that even if they were nasty parents in many ways, that if they were able to "do it all over again", they might have second thoughts now in doing what they did (if they did it), given the magnitude of the tragedy that resulted.

I truly believe that most human beings that are rational would never want such events to happen.

But if there was family abuse involved, and we have to wait to see if that was the case or not, that should be publicized as a warning to everyone everywhere not to take their child's mental health conditions and contributing family abusive relatinoships lightly. Especially now with so many of these kids coming back from this shameful war with perhaps similar time bombs ready to explode in their brains too.

My sister gets an idea and there is no way you can talk her out of it. For years she thought one of our siblings was taking money out of her bank account. She just couldn't see that it was not a possibility. I told her to open a new account at a different bank and not tell any of us which bank. So she did and STILL thought our sister was taking her money. She said well maybe she tapped my phone to spy on me. There was no talking her out of it and it went on for literally years and years. Finally she just stopped talking about it. And she doesn't have 'episodes' as her meds keep her under control.

Have you worked in the field of mental health?

Have you lived with and/or loved a schizophrenic?

Damn straight they are capable of premeditation!
My ex-husband premeditated a lot of his actions.

There are degrees of the illness.
You would know this if you were familiar with it.

Not all messed up kids are the fault of the parents. My former sister-in-law (20 years between my ex and her) has been mentally ill since birth. There is no diagnosis. She was born with a screwed up brain. At 18 months old she literally bit my thigh hard enough to draw blood because I was blocking the door to her bedroom becuase she was throwing anything she could get her hand on. At 6 years old she was throwing things off shelves in a store and I had to drag her (literally) out of the store. WHile trying to get her in the backseat she was trying to kick me in the stomach. Now she was huge for 6 and very strong and I was 9 months pregnant and she was screaming " I'll kill your baby". She has spent her life in and out of residental treatment. She has always had family support, though I will say most have backed away from her in recent years because she is dangerous. I could tell you stories that would make your skin crawl. She is 19 now and the courts can't lock her up until she hurts someone. She lives in a bad section of town with drug addicts that use her. She gets social security and no one can tell her how to spend it. I expect she will be incarcerated for some sort of violence before long.

Our mental health system does not work. 18 years and she isn't any better. 18 years and she is still out there. I won't let my kids near their "aunt" unless she shows up at a family holiday, etc and then their father keeps a damn good eye on them. My stomach litterally turns when I see her and if I saw that she did something like mass murder.... I wouldn't blink. I would yell as loud as I could "I FUCKING TOLD YOU"

Even when families do know something is wrong, if the person is over 18, good luck getting any help. Even when families do try to get their kids every possible kind of help, sometimes it just doesn't work.

Until this child came into my life I never would have used the words "born evil" but now I do. Because something in her brain has turned her into an evil little psychopath who not only doesn't care if she hurts people, but actually has a smile on her face when she does it. She will be out there until she seriously hurts someone. Do I feel bad for her? sure. But I won't put my family's welfare in jeopardy anymore. The laws need to be changed.

Thank god my mother-in-law has moved down south with another sons family, maybe now she can sleep at night without fear.

I read one of his short plays. It's pretty bizarre. It made me think that he had possibly been abused as a child. Maybe by his parents, but maybe by someone else.

I also noted that when his roomies discussed him on TV, they never mentioned his family calling him, coming to see him, and he never left like the others to go home during a break.

A family neighbor stated that the guy was really quiet, basically didn't speak, when he was younger and lived at home.

So his parents had to have known he had some problems, at the least.

I suspect that the full story of his family is not known. Not saying that they are directly to blame or anything. But I'm not sure they should be pitied at this point. One thing I did hear is that they built a dry cleaning business after coming to the U.S., and worked hard and put their kids in good colleges. Funny how the gunman had it in for "rich kids," when actually he came from a family with more money than some of the ones he killed. But his mind didn't work right, so logic escaped him.

I feel very sorry for Cho's family. It sounds like they did try to get him help, even having him hospitalized at one point. Plus, he's an adult and wasn't living at home. They may not have even realized how ill he was - it sounds as if he'd rapdily declined in the last few weeks and months. And, they've lost a son too, like other families have.

(the reason for mentioning Columbine is that I am still unsure how I feel about the two killers' parents there - I don't blame them, but they were minors living at home - I can't help but wonder if something could have been done - if they'd paid a little more attention to even what was just in their rooms)

Someone sure did and that's the first thing I thought when I read some of his script. Maybe his preacher or someone who was in his church is my guess.

this was molested.

Of course you don't know. Just a general question.

And, FWIW, I think people WANT him to be mentally ill, or have a brain tumor that caused all this because it lessens their fears about their own family members.

Instead of trying to find blame or make this into a gun control issue why aren't we taking a closer look at the lack of health care in this country? More specifically, there we aren't dealing adequately with the many with mental health problems who aren't getting the help they need. Neither are the families of people dealing with those who have mental health problems getting the help and/or resources they need.

Apparently they tried to get him help. They will live with the agony and guilt for the rest of their lives wondering if there was something else they could have done.

Sadly, I don't think that this tragedy will advance the need for better mental health care in this country. It will probably just increase the stigma associated with mental illness.

Even when the treatment seems to be working, one can never entirely relax. I'm so sorry, proud2Blib. One of my relatives is constantly worrying about her son, who has been in and out of treatment for a couple of decades now. She is in her 70s now, and for the rest of her life she will be wondering who will look after him when she is gone. He stabbed her once, when she was trying to get him back into treatment -- luckily she survived. It has been utterly wrenching for her other children -- they have small kids of their own to look after, and having to choose between putting their brother out on the street, or taking him into their homes and never being entirely sure what might happen next -- it's no wonder that so many families are shattered by mental illness.

Stephanie Miller reported that both of the parents are in the hospital. They are both in deep shock.

all of his victims
all of their families and communities
all who have been affected by mental illness
all who have been affected by wanton violence
and ALL who STILL DON'T GET IT.




















:cry:

who DID get it and who pointed out that mental health care, not sekurity, is the more important issue here.

:hug:

Because I know that those who do get it live in constant frustration of those who don't get it. In fact, those who don't get it just pile on to the frustration even more and make it worse without even meaning to. When I was depressed one of the things I'll never forget is how often I wished that the clueless but well-meaning people around me could just be me for 5 minutes so that they could just understand how much worse their cluelessness made it for me. Mental illness is a whole different world. A haunted world. Ignorance is bliss.

:hug:

:(

I can't imagine what not only his parents but also the family of the students and teachers that died.

:cry:

beyond doubt that a person is in danger or, is a danger. :(

This is a great site for more information on exactly this problem: www.psychlaws.org.

As someone who was attacked physically more than once by someone out of their own control, this has been a difficult week. And as someone who had to shake care out of a dysfunctional system, I want more than ever for this country to wake up and smell the prevention. :(

:hug:
:grouphug:

The victims have not even received a proper burial and you have people on here feeling sorry for the parents of the boy that killed all those people. Have they even apologized for what their son did? They had to know that he was capable of something bad. If not, they should have. His teachers and classmates did.

Unreal. Sorry, my sympathy goes out to the families of the people slain. NOT to the killer's family.

It's never been done before -- they were supposed to be psychic?

And you don't know the steps they did or didn't take when they found out their son was depressed. I can tell you it takes an *average* of 8 YEARS for mentally ill people to get appropriate medications. And, that's the average. These parents didn't have 8 years, did they?

You walk that mile in those shoes, then judge these parents.

I have been thinking of my own parents all day. I still remember the evening my dad knocked on my door and was crying because my sister had told him she wanted to die. So he put her in the car and drove over to my house to get me to help him take her to the ER. I said Dad, why didn't you call 911 and he just looked at me with tears in his eyes and I knew he didn't want the humiliation of the police and the ambulance in his driveway.

My sister had been sick for about 5 years then and my son was only 2 and that evening was when I finally understood the horror my parents were going through. I had been busy starting my own family, I was a first year teacher, and just hadn't paid enough attention to what my parents were dealing with and how sick my sister really was. That night I finally knew.

Later my mom told me that my sister had been leaving notes all over the house for them to find, telling my parents that their house was bugged, and the mafia wanted to kill my dad. When my dad finally tried to talk some sense into her, she cracked and told him she wanted to kill herself.

I can't even imagine having my child tell me that. And I can't possibly wrap my brain around what it would be like to have a child commit the horrific acts this kid did at VT.

that suddenly go completely out of touch with reality. How it's not their fault or their wish. How searing it is for our families. How it's not really in our paygrade to know how dangerous they may become before their damn chemistry is done with them.

I have to send out yet one more email tonight to all the guys that are ignoring me re Doug. I'm going to hand it to them. That's all I can do. I feel pretty helpless.

No one who hasn't gone through this will ever know how what's it's like to see someone you love deteriorate. Let alone, what it's like to force yourself to do risk assessment. :hug:

No one is asking you to feel sorry for his parents. That others can be empathetic to their situation does not dishonor the dead.

Your correlation makes no sense.

Because that is precisely the type of crap I have heard said about liberals over the years. They we feel compassion for those that do not deserve it. That we want to feel compassion for those that deserve none.

This killer's parents do not deserve any of our sorrow. They had a responsibility to see to it that their son was a positive addition to society. They should have known that there was something horrifically wrong with their son. The signs were there. Classmates that barely knew him knew that there was something wrong with him. How could strangers know this, but not his own parents? They owed it to society to see that there son received the help that he needed. It was their responsibility.

There are more then enough people to feel compassion for right now. The two people that raised this killer and failed to do anything about his mental condition do not deserve it.

Since when parents are responsible for what their adult child does? Ridiculous.

Did this kid's family get him help when he was a kid? By what his grandfather said, he was troubled even as a child.

Even if he was troubled as a kid, even if they knew it, even if they did try to get him help, some conditions defy even the most zealous efforts.

For goodness sake. Are we really going down that path?

It is not clear, at this point, what steps his family had taken, how aware they were of the current situation and, as immigrants into this country, if they were even aware of the places they could seek help. Since nothing is known about his family, I won't assume they turned a killer loose in the world on purpose.

Any correspondence from the English department would have gone directly to Cho himself, since he was an adult. Colleges do not correspond with student's families because the students are adults. My university never corresponded with my parents about anything, not even my grades. His parents may not have known what was going on at school. That is very possible.

And you obviously know nothing about mental illness and how it affects families. And I guess that is a good thing, since a family member of yours with mental illness is not going to get any help from you.

This kid's family is in mourning also today. Sorry that is lost on your empty heart.

Oh, I got your point. You have a person in your family with mental problems. I get that. It's not about you. This tragedy is not about you or your family. It's about the victims of this killer and their families. It's not about the killer, his family, or your family.

How do you know that his family is in mourning? You have no way to know this. His family hasn't issued any statements about what their son did or how they currently feel. So far the only family member to make any statements about him is his maternal grandfather back in South Korea. He commented on how strange he was, even back then. Did his family get him help back then? Who knows. You have no idea how his family is feeling.

So I think we can assume how they must be feeling. They are also in mourning as well as every other family of every victim. They also lost a loved one.

I think you are projecting your personal experience onto this one. You might be correct, you might be incorrect, because there is no evidence one way or another. You also don't know how much they loved their child; that is also an assumption.

"hospitalized for shock" could mean many different things.

Bottom line: we don't know much at all about his family or their reaction.

I don't believe it's a stretch to assume these parents are having a tough time.

but the nature of that tough time is completely unknown.

I would point out that the previous report from Korea was that the parents had committed suicide, so "hospitalized for shock" might be completely untrue as well.

We don't know where they are or how they are feeling.

I have no idea how long of a hospitalization this will be.

Cho was *23* - - a legal adult - - What would his parents have to apologize for? They are no longer in control of his actions (and sadly, neither was he) so how should they be made to feel responsible for HIS paranoid schizophrenia (sp)?

You really don't have a clue about this type of mental illness, do you?


(It's often a late onset illness, and organic in nature. To suggest his parents either brought it on or failed to control it is just mindboggling.)

You think that parents don't overlook things in their children? You think children don't behave differently at home? You think you should be responsible for the sins of your father, your brother, and your son? You think they haven't suffered? You aren't actually saying they are in some way responsible for this on the basis of some intuited evidence not discovered in reality yet?

The only thing the *unreal* label applies to is you. Your complete lack of empathy is perhaps a personal failing you should look into.

I realize that personal responsibility is unpopular these days, but when you have a child that obviously has severe psychological problems, you have a responsibly to see to it that your child gets help.

I don't know if his family has suffered. Neither do you. Nobody knows what the family is currently feeling. They so far haven't made any statements of comments.

to see to it that their child received the care he obviously needed? They had the money to send a daughter to Princeton and a son to VT. They certainly had enough money to see to it that their son got psychological care. Did they? So far, they aren't saying.

How do you know they don't deserve sympathy? And remember, not all parents are trained psychologists and doctors. Some are just average folk that may know a lot about carpentry or computers, but know nothing about how to deal with medical and psychological conditions.

How do you know their kids aren't on scholarship? Two of my siblings went to Ivy League schools but our family was far from rich.

To be honest, I thought I was discussing this with people that have at least attempted to educate themselves about the specifics of the case. If that were true, you would know that the parents sent both children to college.

I think too many of you are trying to go off gut instincts instead of the actual facts of the case. You try to inject your own family's situation into that of Cho Seung-hui. Perhaps before deciding that you feel sorry for Cho Seung-hui's parents, you ought to first learn if they are worthy of your pity. Who knows, maybe they aren't.

It's not like there is any shortage of people to feel sorry for right now.

They live in a basement apartment. They emigrated here from Korea 15 years ago. They have been trying to get help for their son for at least 3 years now.

My parents sent 4 kids to college, but they were far from wealthy.

Yes I do inject my own family's situation into this. It's called EMPATHY. You should try it sometime.

I am talking about EMPATHY. Maybe you should look it up in the dictionary?

Which might be somewhat applicable if your sister had murdered 32 people. From what I can tell, it's not.

You know nothing about these people. You know nothing about what they did or didn't do concerning their son. It's as though you immediately injected your own person story into this and then made judgments about them based on that. You are also forgetting that they come from a culture that is vastly different then that of most people living in Virgina. Don't automatically assume that you know how they are feeling.

It seems to me that you didn't even bother to try to learn anything about him or his family. For instance, you hypothesized that both he and his sister went to college on scholarships. Have you read his writings? Do they strike you to be the writings of someone that earned an academic scholarship?

His writings are an indication of how truly sick he was.

And BTW, there are other scholarships besides academic.

He was a mass murderer.

This isn't about you.
This isn't about your sister.
This isn't about your parents.

As far as this not being about me, once again, I will remind you that my purpose in this thread involves

EMPATHY

for someone, feel sorry for the people on the cover of Time magazine and their families. Don't feel sorry for the people that failed to get their son's autism properly treated.

And once again, you show how little you know. This kid wasn't autistic. He was mentally ill.

arriving in the United States. Then again, for you to know this, you would have to actually read a newspaper or try to seek information from some other news outlet. So far you have been relying on your "gut" feeling about them and comparing them to your own family. Since your sister isn't autistic, Cho Seung-Hui can't be autistic either. That's not the way it works.

Relatives in Korea paint quite a different picture of these people then you do. These people you claim to feel sorry for. Then again, they are related to them and they actually know them. These people you feel sorry for? Their own relatives say that they refused to get Cho Seung-Hui any treatment.

diagnosed.

This thread (as I have repeatedly told you) is about EMPATHY and trying to understand what his parents must be going through. You have repeatedly demonstrated you have no empathy for them.

So other than coming after me, I have no idea why you even bother to post here.

the person you refer to as "The Shooter" murdered. You try to compare him and his family to your sister and the rest of your family. Something that might be applicable if she murdered 32 people.

If you want to boast about EMPATHY, try doing it about the people "The Shooter" murdered. It's sounds ridiculous to hear you boast about having EMPATHY for the parents of an autistic child that refused to get him help.

And I can see I am not the only one having trouble with you in this thread.

Have a pleasant day. :eyes:

Compassion and pity and empathy are not in finite supply for me, so I don't need to run them through that meter before doling them out.


"Worthy of pity" - - my, my.

Nothing I've seen so far shows me that his parents deserve any sympathy.

I go on the presumption of innocence, don't you?

In this case, there is nothing to indicate the parents are NOT worthy of sympathy over the death of their child, self inflicted mass killer or not. He is still dead and they lost a child, and for that they get my sympathy.


FTR, I am not concerned about losing credibility from people who think sorrow and pity are things "deserved" and apparently in short supply. I am quite happy if they think I am helplessly deluded for my decision to try to find compassion for everyone. Sometimes it takes more time than others, but I sleep better knowing I "erred" on the side of compassion :)

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Guess that marks the difference between you and I then.


(I also have compassion for Cho, himself. Does that make your head spin?)

help and became well would be a better wish. But that's just me.

My default is that at a minimum they deserve some sympathy for the loss of their son, regardless of the possibility that they made flawed choices.

'Personal responsibility' has become a right wing talking point. But then surely you must know that. :eyes:

which is not a limited resources - for his parents as well as the families of the killed.

There's little personal responsibility one can assume for another adult.

disconnected from them.

just how easy it is to hide a lot from his or her parents. Especially from his or her parents.

In addition, even if they had a sense that he was troubled, like most parents in such circumstance they may have well hoped to ride it out. There's not a lot even parents can do over another adult.

They might have stopped paying for his education, but I can't see how they would have considered that a way to help him or improve him.

But moreover, and this is something you seem to completely fail to grasp, sparing some sympathy for his parents in no way mitigates or diminishes the sympathy for his victims. Sympathy is not a zero sum game.

I listen to him too.

Most states won't commit someone unwillingly unless they commit a crime or are not lucid enough to carry on a conversation. It's the laws that are messed up. With freedom comes the freedom to be crazy. I wouldn't be to quick to blame the parents. Maybe they were at fault, maybe they weren't. We just don't know yet.

you don't want to face this perhaps, but any ONE of US is every bit as 'capable' of doing "something bad".., and every one of us would face the same possibility of being unable to 'stop' someone they loved from doing that. Their grief has the added burden of their own 'guilt'- never mind all those who seek to pile on even more shame, judgement and scorn.

Better for everyone to offer comfort and forgiveness.

It's so easy to "would'a, could'a, should'a"- Just as it is easy to deny sympathy for those you have chosen to blame.

In the end, you only poison yourself.

I hope you'll come to understand this some day.

peace,
blu

The shooter was an adult, and out of their control.

How can they apologize for what someone ELSE did?

And sympathy isn't a zero-sum game. The victims and their families, as well as his, can all get sympathy without anyone's being lessened by it.

Why is it wrong to see the tragedy on all sides here?

Real Liberals are capable of seeing the WHOLE picture and sympathize with those that may need it.

I'm sure if it comes out the parents were abusive shitholes the feelings will change. Until then innocent until proven guilty - there's another Liberal thing you may not be aware of.

There is not one person here who does not feel sick over the death of the victims - perhaps in your black and white world it's impossible to feel for both sides, but many of us have that ability.

case, I have no idea of Cho Seung-hui's parents are worthy of any pity. I'm not going to just make some snap judgment without first learning the facts.

I don't think it's a bad thing to show compassion for people - like I said if the parents turn out to be evil the opinion will change.

You made that abundantly clear.

about what this will all do to his parents. So damned sad.

:hug:

And yes, we need to be shame busters because as long as there's shame, we won't get anywhere.

... are ones we need far more of.

Being able to empathize with others makes actions like monday's much less likely. Desiring to to help insure that no one goes without the basic necessities of living, improves EVERYONES life.

Most of the cruel, angry, desperate actions that occur in this world are due to "lack"-


Your son is a bright star in this cloudy world-

peace,
blu

This is a kid who could have been the laughing stock in his earlier years in school because he was born with borderline cerebral palsy. He was physically behind the rest of his classmates by about a year. Yet he was always so sunny and nice that everyone loved him. Now that he's 16, he does have moments (laughing here) but he's a good guy with a beautiful heart . Animals even know how special he is and love him.

:)

... It must of been tough to live with the kid that was so tormented and then now have the wrath of the fox zoo after you to follow up. It appears to me from what he says in the video he was very much pushe to the edge, for me this story is sad on all sides really.

they are going to go through so many hells