I don't get it: why didn't school contact you-know-who's parents with mental health concerns?

Depression, anxiety disorders and suicide are far more common occurances on college campuses than are killing sprees. If a member of the faculty had reason to believe that a student was mentally ill, and might be a danger to himself or others, WHY wouldn't the school have contacted his parents (or whomever was listed on his records as a person to contact in case of emergency) and advised them of these concerns? Severly mentally ill people are not in a position to recognize their own illness or get help. Their mind, their sick perception of reality, is dictating their actions and behavior. The school had limited authority to force the student to get help; a family member could have had him involuntarily commited to an in-patient mental health facility for (at-least) an evaluation. Having participated in this kind of intervention and treatment for a sick family member, I have had experience with this.

If the school suspected the student had a pontntially lethal medical problem (cancer, hepatitis), wouldn't the family have been notified? Why would mental illness be treated differently?

I'm NOT blaming the school enirely for his actions, but by the time this person obtained weapons of mass destrutcion, guns, the writing for tragedy was on the wall. If only an intervention could have removed him from the school population, and tried to correct his faulty wiring.

Once recognizing the student's unwillingness to get help, the school should have warned the student's family- if they believed he was as sick as they are claiming now.

At some point, I think you have to stop contacting the parents.

and possible danger to oneself, or others.

Mental illness is not like a bad report card.

As I said, I have participated in involuntarily hospitalizing an adult family member for treatment. Of course, laws about patient rights, involuntary commitment, privacy must vary from state to state.

Not wishing for contfronation here. If you know something I don't- please share.

on a downward spiral concering reality, I was met with nothing more than, "If you feel she is a threat, get a court order to have her committed" which I did...

three times mind you...

The first time, she came waltzing back into my house saying the hospital sent her home in a cab they paid for saying she could get care at home is she so chose....I could not even go down and talk to the doctor about what I have seen her do and show the pictures and writings she had amassed because she is an adult and so that leaves me with absolutely no real power.

She was not seen as a threat, take into account she is a beautfiul blond haired blue eyed petite young lady, very intelligent and knowledegable with therapy and doctors reasonings....she could talk herself out of anything if need be...

the second time, after attempting to break into our gun cabinet with a hammer and God knows that else, threatening her brother, sister and her friends, one male with an actual death threat, I acted again...

Same result,...

she came home, when the males were out of my house, she came at me, I won't go into the crazy ranting, but suffice it to say that she believes this is her house, and that my husband and I stold her from her real parents along with thier money and she has more rights that we do...

Again, one more time went to a judge, got a court order, this time, I paid four thousand dollars to at least have her evalutate for longer than a couple of hours...


She got them to get her a lawyer, again, the hospitals doctors though they kept her the standard five days could not tell me anything concerning her..

Met in five days in front of a judge, though the hospital doctors clearly believe she is in some phchosis state, she didn't hurt anyone nor attempt to hurt herself..

Case closed, she was let out, a friend picked her up since I refused to hoping she would be forced to seek help, after less than one day, the family was calling me to come get her..

God so much more occurred, but suffice it to say, I just don't know what to do, she doesn't think she has a problem and the judge told me herself, "it is NOT a crime to be crazy"

It didn't matter than she threatened people, in fact the judge did NOT even look at the evidence that I had brought,

I find myself going crazy these days, her brothers cant handle it, her father is embarressed and doesn';t really want to talk about it and her sister is kind of scared of her..

Law is, unless she hurts someone, nothing can be done.

I agree completely that the laws surrounding involuntary commitment are frustrating, but I honestly don't know what the solution is. I don't want the police coming to people's homes to make them take medicine.

went North looking for the young man in college in Pa that she threatened to kill via phone message, thankfully, she got lost and swore South carolina was pa and that the whole college simply vanished, we got her a hotel room and tried to get her to come home, we drove straight up there, there was nothing we could do...

Her father gave her money after she promised to drive home, of course she did not, she still went up looking for this young man, got lost again, ended up in North Carolina, finaly allowed me to come get her and bring her home, I talked to the police there as well, same laws apply.

So awful, I am so sorry for this horrible circumstance. The judge is clearly an uniformed idiot. Is there any way to contact a legal aid service and appeal the judge's decison, or get it kicked up to a higher court? How terrible for you and your family. And your poor daughter.

It sounds like you amassed evidence and the judge was negligent in not admitting it. That might be enough to get the decision overturned.

So sorry. You are a very strong person to have done as much as you have. I wish you the best and some remedy for your situation.

get me custody persay, even he couldnt do it, bottom line, she has to hurt someone, as it is, I have hid all the knives, the guns she cannot get to, but we do have hammers and the like, god knows they are just as deadly, she just came in and told me she had a dream about her father...

She believes the lead singer of hinder to be her father, he is around twenty six by the way, common sense does not apply in her reasoning, she knows the band, in fact long story but a meeting with them, something happened, god knows what, and thats when she begun this spiral into false reality, she cant recall what occurred when she was alone with some of the band members..

Not that I blame them entirely, she has always had some kind of problems and has seen many a doctor, she doesnt like them anylonger and sees them as all stupid.

to anyone but the patient and the patient's stipulated trustee. If Cho didn't designate his parents as authorized to receive the information, then the medical community can't release it for fear of federal jail time.

Heck. medical professionals don't even have to respond so subpeonas anymore under certain conditions:

http://www.law.siu.edu/research/29SURVEYPDF/HIPAA%20Restrictions%20on%20Health%20Information%20Release%20in.pdf

This is a very slippery slope you are treading on.

Question: what if he was an orphan? Who would they inform?

I don't know what the laws are, and that sucks, in this case, if the school was prevented from consulting the parents. But it might explain why they weren't. I think one of his teachers tried to get the counseling office to intervene but they were not allowed to do so.

...but it's the law. When my daughter was 18, I couldn't even call in to make counseling appointments for her...she had to call, because she was over 18.

If someone is over the age of 18, we can only speak to the parents with written permission from the student. If the student refuses, there is nothing anyone can do.

he was shown to have hurt someone, I know, am going through that right now, don't you just love our medical care health system as well as mental health issues.

I am having trouble keeping track of all the info coming in.

I guess the big issue is colleges are not high schools. He was an adult, not a child.

probably have hung up on them.

He is an adult. His parents CANNOT and should NOT be privvy to his mental health records.

Should the parents be contacted?

Aw, come on.

Untreated severely mentally ill people can be a danger to themselves and others, depeneding upon their disorder. These are not people who will voluntarily seek treatment. There must be some legal avenue to "force" a sick family memebr into treatmentt, to inform 'next-of-kin" (if not a parent or guardian, then a spouse) of need for professional evaluation.

Privacy laws are privacy laws. Either you have control over your life or you don't.

A third party can't just arbitrarily decide that you are mentally ill, find a compliant official and lock you away forever.

I believe tha maximum time you can be involuntarily committed is 72 hours. After that, you either need a court order or consent.

to right to medical privacy.

Mental illness creates a particular difficulty, but it is absolutely untenable to deny people the right to medical privacy, or the right to deny medical care.

going to get hurt, I am not trying to take away her rights, my god I love my daugther,

Let's just say that addressing the decline of a loved one who became a threat to her underage children and husband-- physically, not to mention the unintended emotional abuse... that's what you call a "particular difficulty". No, that's not a "particular difficulty", that is a living hell. It is a family's right and obligation to seek treatment for a mentally ill family member, and voluntarily or involuntarly. Do you think a majority of these people have the wherewithal to do it for themselves? They do not perceive themselves as sick, as requiring any help. They won't seek help for themselves, and in all liklihood, they will resist being helped. Mental illness is quite misunderstood. It is not a "particular difficulty". It is life or death for that person, their family and in extreme cases, for the public whom they endager.

A provider may, to avert a serious threat to health or safety, release health information to the proper authorities if they believe, in good faith, that such release is necessary to prevent or minimize a serious and approaching threat to the health or safety or to the health or safety of the public.

But sharing your medical information with others - including family - is a civil rights violation. A family does not have the right to the medical information about other family members, nor do they have the right to force other family members to seek or agree to treatment.

Your 18-year-old can enroll in college and spend the entire semester partying and fail all 4 or 5 courses -- and the only way you will find out is if the kid actually tells you. The college is not going to let the parents know, "for privacy reasons." Even if the kid is under 21.

You can be working your tail off, scrimping and doing without in order to make those huge tuition payments, and your hard-earned $5,000-$10,000 could literally be getting flushed down the toilet, but the University of Whatzit is NEVER going to inform you that this is happening.

And how likely is your son or daughter going to tell you he or she has flunked out?

The school is equally unlikely to inform you that they think your kid is having serious emotional difficulties and needs counseling, unless the kid is actively violent and meets the criteria for hospitalization.

Colleges and universities want obscene amounts of tuition money, but they don't want to be bothered with the parents who pay that tuition. Just keep those checks rolling in.

As you may guess, I've had some personal experience with this issue.

I work for a college, and there have been countless incidents where caring teachers, administration, and staff would have LOVED to try to seek help for troubled students, but our hands are tied by the privacy laws.

It's not just about "keep those checks rolling in." The vast majority of those who work for colleges and universities are there because they love the students. Most could do much better for themselves in the private sector.

If you are angry about footing the bill for an irresponsible student, there is a simple solution...stop paying their bills!

I think this particular "privacy" law is extremely stupid and shortsighted.

It didn't exist when I went to Rutgers back in 1969, and I'm darned glad it didn't.

When I was a freshman, a close friend of mine was becoming increasingly depressed and irrational. I was taking a psych course at the time and recognized some of his symptoms, but anyone could tell he was in bad shape. We raised our concerns with the school administration. They called the young man's parents, who quickly came, took him to be evaluated, and got him help. That would not be possible today.

I vaguely recall other instances where extremely depressed kids were helped in this manner. Better to do this, than to let the kid jump from a dormitory roof, or worse, to kill others.

I strongly believe that if someone under 21 is failing courses and not going to classes, he or she should be called in for a conference with an academic adviser, and referred to counseling. And the kid's parent or legal guardian should be contacted and notified that there is a concern.

At a time when young adults are given more and more freedom and control over their lives, they seem to be getting less and less mature and responsible.

I guess the bottom line is, are people emancipated adults at the age of 18 or not?

At this point, the law says yes, and the schools have to abide by that law.

the privacy. Unfortunately, this can mean standing in another line, so some students who wouldn't mind never get around to it. Some colleges also do make exceptions for serious health issues even when the student hasn't signed the form. When one of my children landed in the hospital, I did get a call from the school, but I had to call the hospital for details.

...the privacy law...it's that during VietNam, when 18 year olds were being drafted, sent to war, and dying...they couldn't even vote. The law was changed then to have 18 year olds be adults. The upside is now they can vote about issues that might get them sent to war (which is good), but they are adults in other ways, that prevent parents from helping them, in medical situations.

There are privacy laws that are taken very seriously.

"you know who" ?

Anyway, the family isn't notified of any health concerns at all for an adult within their family.

That sick little fuck...........

wet the bed and start fires?

The student's friends came to me; I was young back then and approachable. I went to see what I could do to help and was told by my department chair that I should do nothing because I could get the school, the program or myself sued. The reason was that the student was over 18. I wanted to call the parents and was told absolutely not, even though the suicide attempt would have succeeded if the friends hadn't shown up. I was forbidden to do so and told I could lose my job. I was also cautioned about offering to help get the student counseling.

What I eventually did was convince the friends to call the parents. I explained that my hands were tied but that theirs weren't. They called right away and the parents came and got their kid.

The problem with Cho is that he had no friends who could call his parents and say, "Your kid's really losing it. Come get him before he hurts himself or other people." The university cannot report private info to parents, medical, academic or otherwise. This started in the 1960s and 70s when students got more rights at the college level and the voting age went down to 18. It's mostly a good thing--who wants their parents to be informed everytime you get birth control pills?--but in cases like Cho's, it's deadly.

to family is a very clever way around codified obstacles to parental notification- for which I believe exceptions should be made in cases of mental illness. I wish someone had thought of that- even asking one of his dorm roomates to place the call. 20-20 hindsight. I hope that colleges address the notificatin issue now, especially with the liklihood of copy-cat incidents on college campuses. Rememembr, there was a spate of school shootings after Columbine.

I'm glad you are one of the few respondants who seem to feel that notifying family might have helped.

I don't think anyone denies that.

The question is, what path are you going down if you notify the parents? Where does it stop?

But there is a greater good in all this and that is the welfare of the student. If one of Cho's suitemates had called his parents and said "Hey, your son is acting very strangely and you need to come and get him," it might have done some good. Of course, that would depend on the parents. Some people are in such denial about their children. Fortunately, in the case of my student, the parents responded right away.

:argh:

that should have been the cue to kick him out. Arson, last I checked, was illegal. Remember the tragic fire at Seton Hall University a few years ago that killed other students.

How do you know who needs help, and who doesn't?

I'm sure Stephen King seemed like an odd person at college, but thank goodness no one turned him into the authorities.

that way - I don't recall anyone at college being responsible for me when I was there - if anyone was, it was my parents, even at a distance.

This is all fruitless, because no one can predict these things - the Columbine shooters were teens and more likely to be observed as minors, and no one noticed.

We have to face the fact we can't prevent these things totally - we need to work on our society, somehow, and try to work against suicide as an out - the main reason these things happen is the willingness of the perpetrator to die. Then we get frustrated because we have no one to punish and start taking it out on the nearest targets, because the perpetrator has deprived us of that.

back in the early 80's. Our weekly staff meetings included the 2 staff people in charge of the dorms, and someone from the Psych/counseling office, and the university health office. Students were generally brilliant, stressed out and not too socially adept. The overall attitude, way back then before all the HIPPA/medical privacy regs, was that these students were legally adults and the university had NO duty or intent to act "in loco parentis" (a phrase referring to a teacher or other adult acting for the welfare of a child when the parent was not present). I also observed this attitude at a public university and an elite private college in the state. In the 90's, when binge drinking was the norm, and some kids died of acute alcohol poisoning, and parents started to sue, the schools finally began to enforce the state law against underage(21) drinking.

Some examples of what I saw: 2 freshman women - one from some hamlet in the sticks and one from a big city. Big City girl's boy friend spending most nights sleeping and screwing Big City girl in small dorm room. Shy and nerdy small town girl is horrified. Asks roommate to stop. Is threatened with "being cut". Small town girl goes to Dorm Administrator. Is told she is an adult now and that she needs to work this out with her roommate on her own. It will be a growth experience. Small town girl spends whole semester sleeping in the lounge, fails most of her exams, and drops out of school. Parents are furious - parents are ridiculed behind their backs at staff meeting.

Married male student assigned to work study time in the Counseling office reports to Dean of Students that head of Counseling (Ph.D.), who has recently left his wife and teenage children to move into a "men's commune", was repeatedly sexually propositioning him. The work study student looked over the files on patients/students (illegal, but hey, he did it) and found that EVERY male student who came in for counseling with this head guy was diagnosed as being stressed - not because of homesickness, roommate conflicts (very common among freshman who are away from home for the first time and having to share a room for the first time, and having nothing in common with new roommate), breakups with hometown girl or boy friends, being overwhelmed by demanding class loads, etc., but because they were repressing their homosexual needs. At which point, the head counselor was inviting these kids to parties at his all male house on the weekends to explore their sexuality.
Lots of tut-tutting, but Dean did nothing. The following year the head guy was pressured to "retire" - after he mooned the entire incoming freshman class, plus the university president at an orientation talk.

A few years before that I was teaching criminology at a large public university - one of my students turned in an extra credit, research paper. The university area had had a number of rape/murders in the preceeding months. The paper was a detailed description of how a rapist could successfully attack a woman - spelling out a description of certain parking garages, with locations of stairwells, elevators, etc.; checking out the hours when nurses at the various teaching hospitals came off shift and which garages they used; and ending with a description of the expressions on a woman's face when she was being raped with a knife held to her throat. Chilling! I made an appointment with the head of that university's counseling dept. (PH.D. in psych). I showed him the paper. He showed no concern and asked my why I was showing this to him. He took no actions at all.
I wanted him to call the student in for some kind of screening/treatment. This turkey made several comments to the effect that most reports of rape were simply women who felt guilty about having sex, and that women should avoid dangerous situations like parking garages late at night.

So by the time my kids went off to school, I made no assumptions that their schools were going to be assuming any parental interest or responsibility.

The college did call my parents, because she had been hospitalized with a psychotic episode. I was wondering the same thing, why the college or at least the professor who had the suspicions about him didn't contact the parents. Or maybe the parents WERE contacted, and they chose to deny his problem. A lot of parents do that when their child is mentally ill.

i'm waiting for everything to come out.

They are legally obliged by FERPA ("the Buckley Amendment")
to maintain the adult student's privacy. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Educational_Rights_and_Privacy_Act

Tesha