Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Cho (VT gunmans) gun purchase was ILLEGAL. the background check FAILED.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:28 PM
Original message
Cho (VT gunmans) gun purchase was ILLEGAL. the background check FAILED.
Edited on Wed Apr-18-07 03:45 PM by davepc
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3052278&page=1

A Virginia court found that Virginia Tech killer Seung-Hui Cho was "mentally ill" and dangerous. Then, the state let him go.

Back in 2005, the District Court in Christiansburg said that Cho was a danger to himself but not others. He was ordered to undergo outpatient care.

...

Police obtained the order from a local magistrate after it was determined by a state certified employee that Cho met legal criteria for temporary detention that includes being a threat to others and being unable to care for himself.

Under Virginia law, "A magistrate has the authority to issue a detention order upon a finding that a person is mentally ill and in need of hospitalization or treatment.

"The magistrate also must find that the person is an imminent danger to himself or others," says the guideline from Virginia's state court system.



The original GCA prohibits firearms purchase and ownership by certain broad categories of individuals thought to pose a threat to public safety. However, this list was in contradiction between the House and the Senate versions of the bill, and led to great confusion. This list was later augmented, modified, and clarified in the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986. The 1986 list is:

1. Anyone who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
2. Anyone who is a fugitive from justice.
3. Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
4. Anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
5. Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa.
6. Anyone who has been discharged from the US Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
7. Anyone who, having been a citizen of the United states, has renounced his or her citizenship.
8. Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
9. Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. (See the Lautenberg Amendment.)
10. Anyone who is under the age of 18 for a shotgun or rifle, or under age 21 for a handgun. (See 18 U.S.C. § 922 (b)(1).)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act







(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
(6) who <1> has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
(B)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ouch...
Edited on Wed Apr-18-07 03:33 PM by beevul
So in essence, the gun control we have now, would have prevented the purchase had so meone done thier job?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. If he was flagged by the NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System)
Then either the Gun shop broke the law in selling him the gun.

OR

He was *not* flagged by the NICS and the gun store had no way to know that he was PRHOBITED BY FEDERAL LAW to buy the gun.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
33. Cho was probably never checked at all.
Virginia doesn't execute background checks on private sales.
Maybe that's why the serial numbers were filed off? Private sale?

GUN SHOW CHECKS

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=va#gunshows

Are background checks required at gun shows? No

No state requirement that a Brady criminal background check be done on people buying guns
at gun shows if they are sold by "private" individuals or gun "collectors."
Gun shows can operate on a "no questions asked, cash-and-carry" basis, making it easy for
criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want at gun shows, including assault
weapons. No records are required to be kept on gun show sales by private individuals or gun
collectors, making it almost impossible for police to trace such weapons if they are used in a crime.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. If he wasn't in the NICS database,
there will be questions as to why not. it's perhaps another screw-up by Bush gang.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'd definitely call that an abject failure of the background check system.
A stalker and arsonist is NOT the sort of person you want buying guns, unless they have been found to be cured of their issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Reagan started this crap
You can't get help for family members you fear for either.

It really goes to show that the gun control laws we do have don't work, and it doesn't bode well for any new laws that might be proposed.

Laws are no guarantee that people will obey... or there would be no more murders or robberies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. The NICS was part of the 1993 Brady Bill
Edited on Wed Apr-18-07 03:39 PM by davepc
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Mental health disqualification predates Brady. It has been in force since the 60s
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. I'm talking about mental health... not guns... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. another Republican failure. They've underfunded and destroyed the mental health system for years
Edited on Wed Apr-18-07 04:26 PM by davepc
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Yep
So, who failed first in this fiasco? Gun control or the mental health system?

I say the mental health system failed first!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. I don't want family members having that kind of power over each other
For example, me. I wouldn't have been simply thrown out into a rainy night when my omm found out I was gay- she probably would have had me committed, had she had the power. I can think of an even dozen sets of circumstances off the top of my head in which being able to do this to someone would be misused- and that's without including divorce.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. There's a huge gap in that reasoning...
No one should have the means to commit another, but when your family member is so out of touch that she's found driving the wrong direction on an interstate highway, 500 miles from home, and when the CHP catches up with her, she locks herself in the car, blows the horn and screams about being on a secret FBI mission... and the state cuts her loose... something is seriously amiss!!! This, after personal testimony about her being violent and hitting her grown children (admitted to it in court too) and hitting grandkids with a broom... please... she needed put away. So did Cho!

No one is suggesting that people be put away simply because someone else says they should be!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. So, the "gun control" advocates were wrong. No surprise.
When will we learn that guns aren't the issue? The issue is mental health.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. There you go, using logic...
I agree completely. But you will no doubt be flamed anyway:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheFriendlyAnarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Seconded.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. The gun control advocates put that law on the books
If I remember, the Brady bill was staunchy opposed by the NRA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:52 PM
Original message
The problem here was enforcement, and the Brady bill had nothing to do with it.
The Brady bill is the infamous "Assault Weapons Ban" that, of course, does not ban assault weapons at all. It bans scopes, bayonets and pistol grips. None of those things would have helped the current situation.

The Brady bill should never have passed, it didn't do anything meaningful to gun regulations, and it cost us the 1994 elections.

Assault weapons are already banned under a 1934 law.

The guy who sold Cho these guns needs to go to jail for a long, long time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. The NICS was part of the brady campaign, no? Don't spew propaganda--think.
Edited on Wed Apr-18-07 03:55 PM by jpgray
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. He's right.
The mental health provision was part of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

However no gun dealer had any good way of checking if a buyer met the legal criteria to own a gun until the NICS system was put in place in the 1990's.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. So clearly, the brady campaign had something to do with it.
How is he right again?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I thought it was a reply to another post. I support the '93 Brady Bill
The 1994 Assault Weapons Ban provision of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act was failed legislation.

anyways, this guy used a 9mm pistol, so talking about AR-15 rifles doesn't really matter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. The AWB was essentially a graceless attempt to ban weapons of military design
But the Brady campaign produced some effective legislation, including NICS. Rather than saying gun control is worthless, in this case a sensible gun control provision had a good chance to keep a handgun away from someone who should not possess one. That it failed is tragic, but the information was there and the system was there--had people been more responsible either in entering or receiving the information, the tragedy may have been remitted or prevented.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. K & R
looks like somebody screwed up the paperwork.
:grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Or could it be?
Some "gun control" opponent lost it?

Is there anyone who sees grey here?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. OK - other then the question on the 4473, how does "mental history"
Edited on Wed Apr-18-07 03:41 PM by jmg257
get to be part of the fed background check, if at all?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Don't forget HIPPA....
It should have been on the NICS check...it wasent...

HE LIED on the for 4473..The gun dealer has NO WAY of checking that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. It was legal
Edited on Wed Apr-18-07 03:47 PM by shadowrider
from dictionary.com

ad·ju·di·cate /əˈdʒudɪˌkeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -cat·ed, -cat·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to pronounce or decree by judicial sentence.
2. to settle or determine (an issue or dispute) judicially.

–verb (used without object)
3. to sit in judgment (usually fol. by upon).


In other words, the court referred him for "counseling/observation" and he was released. He was NOT charged with a crime, was not found guilty by jury (or judge) and found to be "mentally defective" (adjudicated)

From the article, "A doctor found that Cho's "insight and judgment are normal" and that he was not taking any medications, according to documents obtained by ABC News."

Unless he was convicted, this referral for observation would not appear in any background check.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. I've heard there's a distinction between voluntary and involuntary committal to a mental hospital
Voluntary doesn't go into the NIBCS database, I've heard. I think both should be in the system, but only if a person could get re-evaluated once they're stasbile and not a threat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
16. How do you know the background check failed?
Just because ideally the information that he was in a mental hospital would have made it's way into a database checked when he applied for a gun doesn't mean it was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I think he meant the intended purpose of it failed.
...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. He was only sent for observation
And the doctor cleared him. He was not committed by judicial decree, therefore, it would not show up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
18. Who needs a background check in Virginia?
They hold a gun show once a year in the Salem Civic Center and you can buy a gun right there and walk out with it. Most gun crimes committed on the east coast are done with guns purchased in Virginia. Cho was in a gun owners paradise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Not just gun shows. Classified ads and other private party sales.
I think private party sales should be brought into the system, but the specifics might be tricky to work out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. or you can lie on the form you fill out when you buy a gun from a dealer and the computer does not
flag it because the system is broken and underfunded.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. Except he didn't buy it at a gun show N/T
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
19. my take on this..where was homeland security?? there should have
been red flags every where with this guy, stalking, setting fire to a dorm, his writings, his class mates angst,his prof. trying to get him to get help, then trying to force help upon him, being declared unstable and being committed then buying two guns in a month,and not a drop of interest from homeland security, maybe if he would have said "fuck bush" just once.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. They're too busy feeling up grandmas at the airport.
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
44. BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. He voluntarily checked himself in - and thanks to our super gun laws, that's ok.
He was able to legally get a gun because it was voluntary - the gun store wouldn't have even known he had been in the hospital!

Yeah, that's a good system at work there!
:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
30. You're Dead Wrong On Both Counts. It Was Legal And It Did Not Fail.
This whole OP premise is laughable.

Please educate yourself further on the topic before issuing such dramatic declarations. Consider the following:

"Under the GCA, it is unlawful for any person who has been
adjudicated a mental defective or committed to a mental institution to
ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms. The legislative history
of the GCA makes it clear that a formal adjudication or commitment by a
court, board, commission or similar legal authority is necessary before
firearms disabilities are incurred. H.R. Rep. 1956, 90th Cong., 2d
Sess. 30 (1968). The plain language of the statute makes it clear that
a formal commitment, for any reason, e.g., drug use, gives rise to
firearms disabilities. However, the mere presence of a person in a
mental institution for observation or a voluntary commitment to a
mental hospital does not result in firearms disabilities.
"

Maybe you should read the whole thing actually:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/disability.regs.txt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. You're correct
See my post 12 which says the same thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
39. If the dealer did a NICS check of Cho
Edited on Wed Apr-18-07 04:30 PM by formercia
there will be a record of it and the control number of the check has to be written on the ATF form so it can be traced.
If the dealer faked the check or sold it after a fail, he will be in big trouble.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
42. VT shootings = another success for the NRA
The most powerful lobby for weak gun control laws - wins again!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
43. Mental defective
A detention order is not the same thing as a legal committment to a mental institution. Adjuticate as a mental defective is a finding of that fact by compitent medical authority (i.e. licensed shrink or MD.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
45. Keep trying...you'll eventually find a way to justify your gun lust
Edited on Wed Apr-18-07 07:15 PM by jgraz
This just doesn't happen to be it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
46. (AP) Rules Should Have Barred Cho's Weapons Purchase
A judge's ruling on Cho Seung-Hui's mental health should have barred him from purchasing the handguns he used in the Virginia Tech massacre, according to federal regulations. But it was unclear Thursday whether anybody had an obligation to inform federal authorities about Cho's mental status because of loopholes in the law that governs background checks.

Cho purchased two handguns in February and March, and was subject to federal and state background checks both times. The checks turned up no problems, despite a judge's ruling in December 2005 that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness."

"On the face of it, he should have been blocked under federal law," said Denis Henigan, legal director of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

The 23-year-old South Korean immigrant was evaluated by a psychiatric hospital after he was accused of stalking two women and photographing female students in class with his cell phone. His violence-filled writings were so disturbing that professors begged him to get counseling.


http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2007/04/19/641631.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC