Here Is The Screen Cap Of The Cho Manifesto Page. Please Read And Decide For Yourself.

Some people have objected to my thread declaring Cho a terrorist due to his intent gleamed from a page of the manifesto I was able to capture. I am not basing this decision on emotion, but rather on blatant statements contained in the page. Now granted, this doesn't mean he isn't an insane fucker, it just means that as soon as he engages in an act intended to intimidate the masses by making a political statement in a threatening manner, he is now officially a terrorist engaging in terrorist action. Read the page best you can, and you'll see why I'm making this assessment.

Let's read the Unabomber's manifesto while we're at it. How about that character from the movie Se7en. Didn't he leave several hundred volumes? I'm sure there's lots of useful insights in those.

Really.

Not the Columbine shooters - the Unabomber. All those rambling, closely-spaced screeds from a pathological loner with a high IQ. I'll bet Cho thought he was fighting back at a decadent society as well.

Sad. Really sad.

adj. Being in a state or condition of decline or decay...

Yes. It's been a decade since I read the Unabomber's manifesto, but from what I recall I see parallels too.

The Columbine diaries reminded me more of an Ann Coulter novel than Cho's writings - they were rabid, masturbatory rantings about hating and killing everyone different from them. Compared to this guy, they were much more immature (for lack of a better term to describe them).

Again, this is just the same old cliched revenge fantasies of a disturbed, socially-frustrated kid. That's it. All the rest is just peripheral justification.

What else did you expect?

You can't take the "grand justification" of a madman as the actual motivation for his insanity. There's no evidence to accept that his acts were political or acts of terrorism. There just isn't. What the OP wants us to think is that this is some sort of political, terrorist activity, and I just don't see it.

He committed mass murder among his -classmates-. Not against a symbol of US financial power, or any other similarly political target. His real beef was with his peers, and all that doesn't speak of his rage against them just seems extraneous to me barring any other real evidence of political motivation.

retribution.

What was his goal in so doing?

Jesus. Anything else I need to spoonfeed?

I was more sympathetic to your view before I actually saw the page you were claiming supported your determination.

Can you give me -any- example of terrorists shooting up their own schoolmates? Nope. Can I give you whole reams of examples of loony social outcasts shooting up their schoolmates and providing bizarre manifestos to justify the behavior? Yes.

He refers to his would-be persecutors as "Terrorists", which is essentially what you're doing.

terrorism against our popular culture.

I read that it was not policy that he was against, but more our way of life-a culture which sometimes creates as a byproduct people such as himself and the kids at Columbine.

I find myself wishing I could have spoken with him beforehand. I think that perhaps I could have listened to him and reflected back that I understood him. I suspect few to none ever did.

The kid was an out of control paranoid schizophrenic.

I strongly doubt he would have appreciated your sympathy.

Why do we label him paranoid schizophrenic? Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. We don't know.

"Madness is everyone's concern: If you have a mind, it can go mad..."
Edward Podvoll, M.D. from The Seduction of Madness

Not terrorist behavior. You're giving his ramblings way too much credit.

This wasn't politically motivated. It's a bit deeper than that. He didn't just kill his classmates. It's not as simplistic as that.

There's not a stated goal for what he's trying to accomplish. There's not a stated mission.

Quit being lazy... you made your assertion, now back it up.

:rofl:

:rofl:

Classic resentiment, in the Nietzschean sense. He's actually quite inventive in his lists of cruelties. It almost reads as a parody of Christian versions of hell, if you didn't know the upshot in real life.

I think you're seeing what you want to see. The whole bit about the "weak" is just a classic revenge fantasy trope, as present in The Karate Kid as in this letter. Plus, you're extending the definition of terrorism beyond any reasonable bounds.

I won't mention any names...

Just chilling.

We have a winner.

It's a politcal manifesto devoid of politics...or thought...or anything.

It's got some words that involve politics in it.

The fact is, these are important details but rather than address them in an intelligent manner you instead are just using childish mockery and taunting tactics to try and demean me personally just for sake of doing so, rather than actually reading the content and making a reasonable assessment.

Now you can choose to engage in such ridiculous behavior, but from here on out I will ignore your ridiculously nonsensical taunting. These are important details and I'm certain that many non-provocative DU'ers will be fascinated and pleased to read it here first.

See, that's what makes DU great. Our ability to learn information before anyone else does and share it with others. Now you may want to undermine that effort right now, but that doesn't stop the fact that this is something no one in public has seen yet that contains a huge glimpse into what he was thinking JUST PRIOR to the acts of murder he committed. So have your fun with your ridiculous taunting. Others here will be fascinated by the page.

If people disagree with you, please provide evidence to justify your position instead of endlessly accusing the whole world of "childish behavior" and personal attacks, when in fact it's evident to anyone reading that no such thing has occurred. Argue your case, or shut up about it. But stop carrying on with this whiny victim schtick, Ralph.

OMC

the screen.

Has this not been published anywhere?

There was a mudslide around here recently. They've got the video on the news. Maybe I'll get a screen capture, claim it's caused by cell phones and chemtrails. They better give me a pulitzer for it.

It's a great screen capture of this guys 'manifesto'.

I can understand using the word 'terrorist' in relation to the VT shooter, especially after reading his rambling diatribe against the US and others.

Was the Unibomber a 'terrorist'?
Was Manson a 'terrorist'?

If your goal is to strike fear into the hearts of those you oppose and/or hate - it seems to me you ARE a terrorist.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

be sure to accuse any doubters of vague crimes, then alert on their posts.

:shrug:


There are definitely some political elements, and personal ones as well.. I'll withold judgement till I see more

:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:

I'm not saying he's part of some terrorist cell or anything, and I'm sure much of his hatred is stemmed from his own personal abuse he feels he's suffered. But the page most definitely also hints at a hatred towards Americans in general. That is a HUGE development in this story in my opinion, as it takes it broader than just some guy who had personal gripes with classmates and brings it into the realm of hatred towards american policy, that came to fruition through his classmates which he also resented.

Bomb the shit out of them and steal their coal.

He is blaming others for his unhappiness...and is making it a grand conspiracy of the world.

If he was in Canada, he would be nuts too - just without the easy access to firearms, I would guess.

nm

this.

For poor structure and cliches.

:rofl:

Not a terrorist as you're trying to define it.

Just a very sick dude.

:hi:

I guess he liked them.

I think the vast majority of evidence points to the disturbed pariah rather than the political terrorist.

Eric Harris was attractive, successful, popular, had a girlfriend (a 19-year-old girlfriend at that), etc. Dylan Klebold was less popular but certainly not an outcast or reject. These were not kids who had been shoved into lockers in gym class or anything.

The myths of Columbine are legion, from Cassie what's-her-name becoming this famous martyr to completely ignoring how many of the students they killed with pipe bombs instead of guns to the meme that the two of them actively seeking out jocks and Christians (when in fact Harris had warned a popular jock to go home moments before the spree started), etc.

:scared:

there came new STD's that couldn't be cured with a shot--everything from warts to HIV--if this event is spun up to its 'logical' (let's make money, i.e.) conclusion, now the lucky college student will have to go through a fucking metal detector to go get a book at the library, head to class, or go to the chow hall.

People look back on the "old days" with fondness, and those are a few of the reasons!

Heckuvajob, there, Cho-ie!!! Everytime a kid has to go through a detector, and is late for a test or a class with an asshole prof as a consequence, perhaps they'll come up with a new invective: "Fucking CHO!!!" instead of "Fucking hey..." perhaps!

that's how they are going to spin it.

It's in both of his plays that have been posted, too. That's interesting. There definitely is the political aspect, too, but it's not really explained. I wonder what he was thinking with that.

That, and it's really odd and journal-like. He flows from one idea to another, from one image to the next, with no real breaks or structure. People tend to write like that in the grips of strong emotion, and this reads like a massive hate text.

How can we keep this from happening again with someone else?

The guy needed much more help than he got, and that is all there is to learn from his ranting.

Christian Nazis
Apostles of Sin
Crucifers of the Innocents
Kim Jong-Ils of the West
Osamas of America
Rapists of Souls
Democratic Terrorist

Well, I liked their early albums more than some of the recent stuff.

:rofl:

And he names Eric and Dylan at the top, so he realized he would be pulling a Columbine.


I can't figure out just which group he blames for all the coverups and conspiracies he seems to think "drove" him to do it. And all that stuff about starting a revolution - - that is just delusional psychosis speaking if ya ask me.

But in the end, I agree with the other poster here who points out that he killed his classmates, the same ones he says tormented him in school etc etc etc so I don't think this is a Terrorist movement or anything....


We aren't supposed to be reading this, are we?

is to incite fear in others, he did that.

One need not belong to a "group" or any other entity to be a terrorist, all it takes is words and actions that instill fear, both criteria are met here.

It is a tragedy on several layers; he did not get the help he needed, he felt tormented, he reacted in a violent manner affecting many people.

This entire episode is so sad, and it is difficult to say if could have been prevented, but he was hell-bent on this, and there appears to have been mistakes made all the way around.

I see it being more social frustration than anything else.

there?

It's like you're just glossing over it as if the majority of it was personal rant towards students. Hey, guess what, that isn't the case. The majority of the page is political in nature towards Americans and our policies.

All the political nonsense is just another way of saying "My dog told me to kill those people." I asked you above to name one terrorist incident perpetrated on the classmates of said terrorists. It doesn't happen. What -does- happen is the creepy bullied kid having sick revenge fantasies about his classmates and acting it out. The other justifications, given this, are mostly peripheral.

ranting against both sides of our political coin... But mostly powerful vs powerless, regardless of any ideological bent. . It seems more classic paranoid schizophrenia than anything else...

He was trying to instill fear in people, and he succeeded.

In fact, he may have succeeded too well, there may well be 'copycat' incidents; he has placed fear in some to the point they will be paranoid; those that survived, and other students in the area of the killings will live w/this for the reszt of their lives. He instilled terror and fear, that is the goal of a terrorist.

What I have a problem w/calling people "terrorists", is when they use it as a catch-all for soem perceived threat, and arrest an individual for saying he's gonna "kick someone's ass". What Cho did, was an act of terror, it empowered him to a degree, perhaps the first time he ever felt he had power. And although he was obviously disturbed, I believe he knew exactly what he was doing at the time.

There's more to it than just instilling fear.

terror as well.

The difference is, both of them are fictious, this act was real, and predetermined to instill fear and retribution upon others, whether those people were known to Cho or not. He did this act, much to the chagrin of all, as a selfish demand to be "known".

To say he overreacted to his "plight" would be the epitomy of an understatement.

Rapists and murderers engender fear, but they aren't terrorists--in my view any useful definition of the word has to include political motivation.

opinion, and often it becomes a learning experience...:)

in case you missed the point of the OP. You want to lock down every campus because some deranged student might turn out to be a "terrorist?" Welcome to George Bush's Paranoia America.

can happen again in the future, they may be better prepared.

I know that gov't, the cops and all the rest can't protect us from every incident, but people who could be in danger, need to know how to protect themselves.

Fear is a powerful tool, and it is used often, overcoming that fear is a primary way to protect one's self and others. It doesn't take a whole room full of"heroes", just a few that can react when necessary.

as a "terrorist", as their goal is to incite fear and intimidation in their partner - doesn't necessarily make them a Kim Jong-Il...

acts to maintain control. And in many cases, I would consider it a form of "domestic terrorism".

Abusers need to put away, the only thing they know is ruling by fear. No one should have to live their lives in constant fear.

such as this, and many others can be defined as "terrorism"; I just think we have to be careful how much political weight we assign to it. This just illustrates that Bush's very idea of a "War on Terror" is utterly preposterous - how can you declare war on a TACTIC????

things politicos haven't figured uot is these "wars" on various things, crime, drugs, poverty, etc., rarely if ever work.

Terrorism was defined as inciting fear through violence to influence political action. It's this latter part that distinguishes the political terrorist from the psychotic binge killer. Cho is not a terrorist, I think that's a ridiculous assertion. He is part of no movement, he is not attempting to influence political action -- he relieved his deep psychic pain in an orgasm of selfish and sick violence, that is all.

Cho did strike fear into people?

If it struck fear into people, it was an act of terrorism. We were talking about this in PolySci class yesterday, and students here in Nebraska were fearful for their lives because of what Cho did. Irrational fear?...I'd have to say yes; but that is what terrorism is.

I just retrieved a copy of the USPATRIOT Act from my harddrive. I was going to use its definition of "terrorism" to refute the claim that Cho did indeed commit a terrorist act. The presense of the word "or" obliterates my position.

Section 802(5) of the USPATRIOT Act (2001) defines "terrorism" as follows:

...the term 'domestic terrorism' means activities that--

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended--

(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; ...

Cho certainly meets the requirement of clause (A). And he also meets the requirements of clause (B) item (i). I had remembered this as if all three items, i to iii, had to be present. Clearly not. The term "or" after the semi-colon of item (ii) means just one of the three items must be met, and clearly Cho meant to intimidate a civilian population.

Does that mean, if he survived, he could've been waterboarded, imprisoned and tortured in Guantanamo, renditioned anywhere Bush chose, denied habeus corpus, and convicted by a military tribunal? Further, does that mean a Greenpeace activist who causes a dangerous traffic jam in San Francisco can be imprisoned, tortured, renditioned, and tried by kangaroo military court if Bush so chooses?

Boy, we do indeed live in interesting times!

just about anything can be a "terroristic" act.

Not sure how it is in your area, but people have been arrested here for "terroistic threats" for the past couple/3 years, in fact, one guy up at the college threatened hisinstructor w/an "ass-kicking", and was arrested and charged w/conveying a terroristic threat.

Personally, I think that this whole thing is way OTT, but until we can control the Gov't, (which should be the next General Election), we can't do much about it.

All this administrtion has done is scare the crap out of people, a constant barrage of fear induced reactions...how pathetic.

:hi:

he's using everything else as a justification to cover that up, he had a persecution complex and he didn't fit in and he was full over rage over that imo. Everything else is window dressing.

Reading the "Kill Yourself" diatribe that much is clear. Anything
political or religious is just thrown in there to pump up his ego
of his own importance in his deluded (mentally ill) view of the world
and his place in it.

nt

All the grandiose stuff is simple to puff himself up. The word "outcast" referring to himself is all I needed to hear.

Persecution complex ramblings from a mentally ill person. There's a hurricane of justifications he gives but really that's all it is: an ego-driven mess. Unbearably sad he never got the help he needed before this happened. :(

was in the kid's own head.

That's your basic paranoid schizophrenic. Really freaky.

Nothing more or less.

"You lie to the world, shed those tears of treachery, and leave out all your heinous crimes against humanity so that you can suck in all the millions of donation money ... You want to use the power that you have and the power of your friends to manipulate the truth so that (you'll?) come out with a fucking profit in any situation..."

One very angry rant. One very angry person. Such a terrible thing.

...to feel the pain he felt as an outcast. That's all I can garner from that. The references to anything Biblical or otherwise grandiose are part of his need to be dominant over those who would oppress him. Seems that simple to me.

hardly a 'manifesto'.

because it lends it some weight.

It's just the printed disjointed rantings of a very sick person.

...with (...) where I can't make it out. This guy sounds waaay off the deep end (surprise, surprise). He also sounds like someone with religious/political weirdness in his mental makeup (Democratic Terrorists???). And, he seems to have issues with money (won't come out with a fucking profit in any situation). I remember that the family runs a dry cleaning business, but they live in a cheap basement apartment.

"you, you want to get on your knees and genuinely (...) your acts of sadistic hedonism? You want to see what (...) pushed to the edge? And now that I have sought vengeance, you want (...) to Eric and Dylan to keep all your crimes buried? You want to call (...) to keep all your sins hidden? And you wonder why massacres happen. You (...) and money to omit all your wrongdoings and characterize us as evil to the world? (...) and drove us to the edge and pretend you didn't. You made us seek vengeance and pretend (...). You want to lie to the world, shed those tears of treachery, and leave out all your heinous crimes (...) so that you can suck in all the millions of donation money like slimy leeches, you (...)? You want to use the power that you have and the power of your friends to manipulate the truth so (...) won't come out with a fucking profit in any situation, suck some money out from strangers using our (...). Only if you could be the victims of your depraved crimes, you would have never committed them in the first place. All the blood that has been spilt today is on your hands. Every single ounce of blame lies in (...) you lovers of Terrorism. You have no clue of what revolution I have started. The number of you (...) of Satan that I have killed is nothing compared to what my People -- my Brothers, Sisters, and (...) that you fucked -- will do. They will be influenced by my framework and see that they no longer (...) terrorized by you Democratic Terrorists. They will be inspired to carry out vendetta like me except (...) bigger and more lethal with each generation, because of your actions that destroyed millions of (...) all these years and millions more you will destroy, massive volcanoes of blood will be spilt. Because of your actions, the ground you stand on and you that harbor its principles will forever be known around the world as Holy Ground of Terrorism, Lovers of Terrorism and Sadism, Rapists of Souls, (...) Christian Nazis, Apostles of Sin, Crucifiers of the Innocents, Kim Jong Ils of the West, American (...) Osamas of America. Because of your hedonistically heinous actions, the Weak and the (...) that you have fucked will rise and carry out our bloody vengeance. Generation after generation, (...) squash your heads beneath our foot until your brains squirt out, we will shatter every bones in your (...)( with hammers, we will claw your jaws off and ram them up your rectal cavities, we will leave a (...) on every inch of your bodies, we will slice your throats ear to ear with the sharpest blade and (...) veins and arteries to squirt out blood like fire hoses, we will disintegrate your bodies into a (...) with razor-whips, we will maim you with our bare knuckles, or coldly shoot every single one (...) like targets and turn the Pacific and the Atlantic ocean into the darkest hue of red to avenge the (...) demolitions that you executed in us Weak, Defenseless, and Innocent Children. There is no way out -- Kill yourselves, Kill yourselves or you will never know how the dorky kid that you humiliated and spat on will come behind you and slash your throats and rip your spines out. Kill (...) you will never know the day the outcast that you crucified in school will hammer you on your (...) you up with a razor, forcing you to feel every cut of your skin, every motion of the blade, (...) of your blood, and every single millimeter of your precious life slowly fading away. Kill (...) you will never know the hour the little kid will come with hundreds of rounds of ammunitions (...) to shoot you down for shoving his face in shit and beating him every week with your drunk and (....). Kill yourselves you sadistic teachers who filter out the Weak and the Defenseless to launch (...) you will never know which calm night the kid that you fucked will come and cut you, and (...) all your children open. Kill yourselves or you will never know the year, the month, ..."

by people who are schizophrenic.

:-)

Isnt this obvious this guy was an outcast who was picked on in his eyes????

Theres no deep political meaning to this.

He felt picked on and wanted revenge.

His "manifesto" was just an attempt to feel important and like he was leading a cause.

Thanks for transcribing this.

The so-called persecution might be in the kid's own head.

But I do think there is some political delusional motivational component to it as well. Perhaps in his delusion he felt that he would be starting a revolution and stop the "Democratic Terrorist" as he puts it by killing his classmates.


I wouldn't put much effort in making sense of his motives or his actions. I believe he was a paranoid Schizophrenic having a delusional episode and he acted on it.

Most descents into madness are preceded by an obsession.
The rantings of a deranged and very ill individual.
Lee

Is his crime so organized?

Something is seriously wrong with this. I'm pretty well versed in mental health issues, and try to keep up with the newest treatments and theories. If you have somebody decompensating -- HOW THE HELL DID HE STAY SO ORGANIZED??

Every flipping thing is in order, from reciepts to the locks on the doors.

I'll buy sociopath for $500 but not the delusions and schizophrnia.

"Paranoid schizophrenia usually does not involve the disorganized speech and behavior that is seen in other types of schizophrenia."

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000936.htm

Has been happening for the past two/three months. People noticed. And people DO notice.

I'll be curious to hear what 2006 was about.

A schizophrenic is not a sociopath. Not the same pathology.
Lee

A true sociopath wouldn't rant and rave like that. They wouldn't care enough to have a "reason". Sociopaths tend to be serial killers not mass murderers. Most mass murderers fall into some other category.

Of course, none of this really matters to the victims's families, does it? Poor people.
Lee

I've lived with schizophrenics. As with most mental illnesses they are much more often the victim of crime than the perpetrator but when a paranoid schizophrenic does break....it's a bloodbath and paranoids are unlike any other schizophrenic. They can be very methodical and organized.
Lee

who's following the case, though not as closely as I am. Anyway, this expert thinks Cho probably was a schizophrenic. Said he was probably coming out of something called a "prodromal phase" and entering something called "an active phase." Claimed that this is supported by the level of organization of which he was capable. Then claimed not to be able to make an accurate diagnosis without clinical interviews and testing. Very frustrating.

Also claimed that this is made even more tragic because, since he was fairly early in the progress of the disease, Cho may have responded well to treatment.

That's a leap.

Terrorists are not mentally ill, believe it or not. Terrorist acts are planned with very specific political purposes and are intended to initiate action by a government or by an armed militia. Osama Bin Laden wanted troops out of Saudi Arabia. Al Qaeda in Iraq wanted (and caused) a civil war between the Shiites and the Sunnis.

This was not a terrorist act.

Skinner??? Wouldn't that be a cool new function?

It's all about her family and how she was misunderstood and belittled. She has refused help and meds for 54 years. There's no changing her. Several attorneys told me she's an adult and there's nothing her children can do about it unless she becomes a danger to herself or others. I guess you have to wait for them to crack and hurt themselves or others before anything can be done.

Though, my Mother didn't write down her crazy thoughts, she expressed her "madness" in verbal diatribes. What's additionally sad is that many of these people are afraid to take their meds, they think people are trying to poison them. And, of course as I was told "the mentally ill have rights" so they can't just be plucked off the street and evaluated as you note. Seems we need a change in the system? But, I don't have any easy answers that's for sure. :(

he surely sees this as some sort of political act. That said, he is also really fuckin' crazy.

I must say that my first thought when I heard them reading this on the news was that they used the profanity excuse so as to avoid pointing out the "political" context.

I'm flat out amazed, even on CNN's front page right now, that there is no mention of the political/international/terroristic references inherent within it. It doesn't mean it was all about that, but how on Earth can they avoid even HINTING toward it whatsoever?????

Ahhhhh, don't answer that... I already know the answer.

acknowledging any coherence whatsoever. right?

I think that is your point, when it comes down to it. Certainly the text does not justify your position, Ralph. I think you're just mad because he's not Amurrican. Were "Eric and Dylan" terrorists?

Just think about the health care savings just by substituting the term "terrorists" for anyone with a mental illness.

Now we can demonize people who need mental health care. Who needs OBL? Grab your guns and shoot the mentally ill on sight why don't you. Murder, even torture is acceptable according to the criminal gang in the white house. So long as we label them terrorists that is.

In all seriousness, IMO, Columbine was a crime and so is VTech. Tragic mass murders by mentally ill people.

Iraq is now midst a civil war. I won't play msm's and this administration's little "name games" calling people insurgents. The different factions in Iraq are murdering one another. Mission accomplished.

911 is a crime against humanity... or at least it was until the chimp and his band of merry murderers manipulated events to terrorize the people of Iraq in a blatent act of grabbing their oil.

People feel terrorized by crimes. But crimes by any other name are still crimes. Murderers are murderers. Mass murderers are just that - mass murderers.

:eyes:

posting.

Fact is, NONE of the media were reporting this angle of the event. As usual, DU'ers have to be their own media. When I read this page I was astounded at its content and the fact it wasn't being addressed at all. Knowing that no one publicly knew this angle yet, I did the responsible thing and posted it here.

Nowhere have I disputed his mental illness (ummm, he killed 32 people. Obviously he's fucked in the head). But as soon as he tries to intimidate through violent threats that are political in nature (as is noted several times in the page) he officially becomes a terrorist and not an every day murderer, as per the very DEFINITION of what terrorism is. He need not belong to a group or have some organized cell blah blah. Though he undoubtedly had some interpersonal hatred toward the students as well, there is much within even just this ONE page of the document that suggests he very well may have been doing this act as a way to call attention to the policies of America. He wrote that page with intent and it is clear it was written to ALL of us and not just those that he knows. It was clearly an attempt to intimidate the public through extreme violence and send a message that more acts like this will occur and that we deserve them. THAT VERY SENTIMENT MAKES THIS TERRORISM WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. Now sure, he very well may be rambling and and grandiose delusions by thinking that his act is some big catalyst for future events, like some grandiose bin laden video. But it doesn't change the fact that he wanted the crime to be big and wanted it throughout the media that it was done as an act of vengeance not only towards those who wronged him, but towards our society in general for the acts our government have perpetrated on others soil.

Deranged? Absolutely. Psychonut fuckface who should rot in hell? Absolutely. But even regardless of his being fucked in the head, does the newly discovered context with political angles and broad intimidation attempts towards society make him a terrorist as well? It certainly does, based on the very definition of what terrorism is.

Labeling someone who is mentally ill a terrorist is a stigma upon people with mental illnesses.

Cho's rantings, political, social or sexual are the ravings of a sick man. Placing a stigma on the mentally ill is a dangerous, unethical path. At one time, using rationalizations like this led to sterilizing a group of citizens in this fugging country. IT IS UNETHICAL FOR SOCIETY TO STIGMATIZE THE MENTALLY ILL. People like Cho need mental health care, not GITMO.

When you apply the term terrorist to someone, the definition must be narrowly applied IMO so as to protect the inncocent thousands, if not millions of people who may be targeted by the stigma of being a terrorist.

I will not apply the term terrorist to a mentally ill mass murderer. He had the ability to rage against politics, sex and his fellow students in a diatribe that probably makes NO sense to ANYONE but himself.

I mean, one of the guys being tried for terrorism right now, I think (is it Padilla? Or someone else?) is mentally off, so says some dr.

Could be he's not a terrorist, per se, but a terrorist sympathizer.

Maybe he's not. I don't know. But some of what he said sounds like some of the terrorists' rantings and ravings. Maybe he sympathizes with them and took on their way of handling his objections to modern American society?

Hey, if he's a terrorist (and I haven't heard anything on TV linking him officially w/any terrorist organization), then that means all the government's spying didn't protect us, after all. They failed (again). Too busy spying on the MSM and Democrats in Congress, no doubt.

incarceration (torture). The case is pending.

There's no similarity to Cho. Cho was mentally ill, not tortured into madness.

Answer my question: were "Eric and Dylan" terrorists? I guess you will answer no, because they were a couple of All American kids. Not terrorists. Just insane mass murderers. But this guy was a furriner, and that's got your panties in a was. Admit it, Ralph.

I don't know if you and "Ralph" have some kinda history or what. Perhaps you would be able to help me expose my latent xenophobia too. Is this your pet issue? You know there is some ultra feminist running around here exposing all of our misogynist tendencies as well.

It just feels like you(and many others) are somewhat defensively screaming Nutjob! In an effort to have NOTHING in common with the Nutjob! I would in no way condone what he did but...over the last six years I've come to notice that many people have become quite distressed by the actions of our government, no our society even. Could things in fact be relative and for example "normal" well adjusted people could oh say... start smoking again, have trouble sleeping, overeat, read political blogs etc. and people who are mentally ill to begin with become more prone to going on a rampage?

You seem to think that your Dylan and Eric question somehow deflates "Ralph's" observation. I seem to remember that they left a manifesto railing against many of the same types of things so yes, in a sense, one could call them terrorists. The common thread in their manifesto's seems to be the same gripes nerdy, outcast kids have all over America. Our culture is ill and these rampages seem to be a symptom.

I'm not suggesting that we should begin referring to Cho as terrorist but he did directly address the issue of using this act as some sort of catalyst for a social change and if that doesn't fit the definition of terrorist I don't know what does. Of course we shouldn't call him one according to the criteria upon which we have been conditioned to define terrorists. He had no support group and no chance of this furthering anyone's interests but the ghoulish media's. I bet ya these disaffected youths start using the internet to plan their maniacal rampages together soon enough. Will they be terrorists then? Personally I hate that fucking word and all of it's baggage.

What worries me is that we live in a culture where people are using hyperbole to stake out their position and hunkering down behind their walls. I will consider any suggestion and encourage dialog at all times. Hell, sometimes I just say shit to hear what people think. Obviously, 99% of the people here think Cho was an incoherent wackjob and don't you dare sully the name of our terrorist brothers! Maybe Mohamed Atta had to count the stairs when he went up them or was obsessed with his bushy eyebrows? Reality is a continuum.....

Believe it or not. Osama Bin Laden is not deranged in any way. He is clear headed and in complete control of his objectives and tactics. This guy, as you have admitted yourself, clearly was mentally deranged. His incoherent ramblings are just that: Incoherent ramblings. You really can't compare some psychopath with terrorists who have clear intent and defined objectives for their acts.

you took the time to capture and copy the letter for us here at DU. Thanks. People implying your biased because he was a "furriner" aren't advancing the debate. There do appear to be some political motivations in the letter and it makes sense the media hasn't figured out how to handle that angle yet. Also he doesn't appear to have been as insane as people suggest. The letter is rambling but it is not incoherent. You can see clearly his creative writing skills in the juxtaposition of words like Christian Nazis and Apostles of Sin. He was angry and rambling but stuck to his theme of violence and hate. The fact that he was able to keep passing classes is proof enough that he wasn't insane. I think he was definently fucked up but he doesn't fit the normal definition of schizophrenic. A product of a violent society is probably closer to the truth.

Why is speaking about mind-control such a taboo? After all, it is written in US History. It's not as though it NEVER HAPPENED here. Seriously. Why is everyone terrified to talk about it? It's like it is an "unspoken" no-no. The Monarch Project EXISTED. MK Ultra EXISTED. It's documented. For goodness sake, there were Congressional Hearings on it all. It's a fact. Why is discussing it always such a BIG DEAL? I just don't get it.

Gerald Ford put an end to the program. Or did he? Doesn't anyone find it odd that NOBODY has even CONSIDERED this as a remote possibility? WTF are they hiding?

This guy didn't SPEAK. He showed NO emotion. The Department Chair had to enroll him in Independent Study. She never got more than a yes or no out of him. This went on for YEARS. His roommates NEVER heard him speak. He didn't show any emotion (positive or negative) with any of them. Ever.

That's not the guy I saw on tape today. He had PLENTY to say. Doesn't anyone find that disconcerting? I certainly do.

struck me like lightening..

he said something on this order...

...you with your gold chains and Mercedes..and your vodka and Cognac..


well yes a mentally ill person could ramble like that..but ..

college kids..don't drink COGNAC...

and not many can afford much Vodka...
college kids drink beer!

and my son went to Virginia Tech..Mercedes on the campus....and in the parking lots at the dorms..were not prevelant..in fact i never remember seeing any ..unless it was parents weekend..and the parents drove them there and drove them home...

my son played baseball at VT, i was there all the time for ball games..I went on road trips as well..and i would say...not many of the parents i met or saw were even driving mercedes..I was at the school all the time for fund raising events for the team...

another mom and i were both with the airlines..and we were there all the time..

i saw alot..the guys treated the other mom and i like the team mothers...

beer drinking..yes..vodka and Cognac..never...

gold chains...nope i never saw that either..on that campus..

this is just my 2 cents..but last night ..watching that tape..that struck me ..and was so glaring to me..

fly

Although it's still okay to sell them guns, I'm sure, in the world-view of the OP.

I believe you are onto something here.

:thumbsup:

If someone did a horrific act such as this
to protest the criminality of Smirk, Snarl and their misadministration
The act itself would still be horrible
but it wouldn't make Smirk and Snarl into Choirboys

These are quotes from the manifesto I see, so far:

``Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats,'' he says, apparently reading from a manifesto. ``Your golden necklaces weren't enough you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything.''

Gotta say I agree, but not gonna kill 32 people over it

"You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today," 23-year-old Cho Seung-Hui says in a harsh monotone, in an excerpt shown on "NBC Nightly News." "But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off."

This is pretty nuts, but you begin to see his tortured logic

However, if Smirk and Snarl decide to try to stay in office past 1/09, all bets are off for me

Actual studies on terrorists have shown that they are sane, as sane as the average soldier, at least. They see themselves as fighters in a war using different methods. Nothing more.

Cho is (was) different. He was insane. As many here have noted, religion and politics are common themes for the delusions of nutjobs (not a clinical term, but you do need something to distinguish the mentally ill, most of whom are harmless, and this sort of fellow, who was able to methodically kill 32 other human beings.)

The terrorist is part of an organized movement, of varying size, but is not usually a loner. He is fairly normal, still needs the social sanction of at least some people in order to justify killing (which is part of the reason why the FBI thought Rudolph, who fit the profile of a terrorist so well in other respects,must have been aided by sympathizers). Cho, like Kaczinski, is something else-a crazy loner.

There is no doubt this guy was messed up, but after reading that I think it is just some babble to express his anger and put blame on everyone he can.

Now, I may be considered to be whacked too, but what he wrote would probably be what I would write if I was going to kill a bunch of people and blame someone. He is mentioning things that are going on now. He is talking about terrorism and rich people. He mentions the Columbine kids and bullies. Most of the ranting seems like things you can find on thousands of MySpace accounts by pissed off kids.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I personally don't find anything about his writing that I find "far out". A lot of it sounds like a bad attempt to sound "nuts", very contrived.

I've read many different opinions about this on DU and this is just mine at this point. I know some will think I am wrong, but that's fine of course. He didn't seem to want the help that was offered to him, he knew what he was about to do was wrong and would shock everyone, and he did everything he could to make sure everyone knew who he was. Yes, he had an illness, but he decided he didn't want to help himself. He made it to a senior in a pretty good college, he obviously had some sort of structure in his thinking.

Do I think that this tragedy should open up questions and discussions about certain laws and possible ways that some things should be handled? Yup. Do I feel sympathy for a person who took the lives of all these innocent people because he didn't want to help himself? Nope.

Answer the question, Ralph. Or does the term only apply to furriners?

especially the ones who have cars and credit cards? :eyesroll:

:eyes:

Dylan had a diary. MAYBE if he was a furriner and MAYBE if he had sent it to NBC before the killing spree he would have upgraded to "terra terraist", no?

Excerpts from Dylan's diary:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/SUSPECTS_TEXT.htm

“I swear – like I’m an outcast, & everyone is conspiring against me…” — Dylan Klebold

“The lonely man strikes with absolute rage.” — Dylan Klebold

“killing enemies, blowing up stuff, killing cops!! My wrath for January’s incident will be godlike. Not to mention our revenge in the commons.” — Dylan Klebold

This is what mental illness looks like.

There are web pages like this.

Whenever you read them you quickly realize that they are living in some imaginary world of their own.
Real tinfoil hat types.

This is obviously one of them. It's horribly tragic that his imagined view of the world was brought into the real world.

But he is mentally disturbed.
Not a terrorist.

http://www.acolumbinesite.com/eric/writing.html

attempted to post an illegal link to Eric Harris' writing, which (though illegible) could have been written by the same person.

:shrug: Reality and Cho were not on the same plane. His rantings depicted above strongly suggest that he was de-compensating, in a big way. A shame that someone was not closer to him during these final days. :(

So did the FBI analyst. They both said he perfectly fit the pattern.

more concerned about people getting guns into every citizen's hands than having an effective mental health system. eom

WTF? Wonder if HATERADIO had something to do with this...

He could also just be ranting.

to use america policies and americans as his cause to end his troubled mind.

Did any group or subgroup get left out of that rant?

Yes he was one crazy fucker, and I think he tacked on the manefesto as an afterthought...

But its still the thought that counts...

american policies but why I feel that he did that is simply because he was an outcast, a loner, with mental problems which he could not control nor wanted to, I do believe after reading this and I for one thank you for this screen capture...

Granted, some if not all is jumbled but the gist is there, he chose to take his anger and rage out on americans period not even realizing in his rage that he chose to end the lives of others who were simply in this country getting or giving education...

Bottom line is he was menataly unbalanced and chose to take his frustrations out in somewhat of a political grandstanding by murdering those he blamed for his ills.

I think sometimes, a batshit crazy kid is just a batshit crazy kid--not a 'terrist.' His shitty remark about Democrats midway down the page, though, suggests that he was a REPUBLICAN batshit crazy kid. I'm glad he's not on our team, at any rate. That was a choice, and useful, bit of info, right there--handy against the rightwinger who tries to lay this batshit crazy kid on us.

Again, great job on the screen capture--the right moment, and clear as a bell.

We aren't afraid, because there's no one else out there is the group willing to do the same thing again.

The way Al Qaeda struck fear into us is that though the perpetrators died in their attack, the group was/is still out there.

Cho is dead and there's no further fear to come from him. And no group to back him up.

Labels like terrorist are meant to distinguish events, not make them more serious inherently. No one thinks these deaths any less horrible because they are not due to "terrorism." So there is no need to dress up as many things as possible as "terrorism." In fact it waters down the term and makes it less useful.

I'd be worried.

Despite wishing this entire topic would disappear into the netherland, gotta say, your post makes the most sense.

Sorry to kick this garbage with my response, but it's a laugh out loud moment, here.

Almost as bad as the ramblings of Sirhan Sirham.

In grad school to save money I rented a room in a house with some acquaintances. The one room left in the house was rented out by "Chris." He appeared a bit eccentric, but in a college town, one gets used to these things. We didn't have a choice of who we wanted to have live with us, as it was a "group home" of sorts.

"Chris" spent a lot of time in the bathroom. He also had a constant appearance of red-raw hands and a red face at night. We eventually found out, quite by mistake, that he spent a half and hour to 45 minutes a night washing his hands and face repeatedly in bent over the bathtub. He kept to himself most of the time, but generally came across as a bit of an oddball but harmless. Quiet, Quirky, and just someone we'd have to put up with.


Then we began to hear the screaming.

One night he began yelling out his window--to whom? No idea. It must have been part of his illness. My housemates would pound on the wall and tell to shut up and for the most part he did. Soon, the screaming became constant at night--and no amount of confrontation on our part would shut him up.

2 days into this, one of my housemates, a less than mature individual directly confronted "Chris". The rest of us were at class or work and she was alone with him in the kitchen.

He began chasing her around the house. She locked herself in her room and called the cops before he tore the phone line out of the wall. At that point, he had not laid a finger on her, but had been screaming at her and stomping through the house.

The police came, filed a report, but as there was no damage, no assault, etc. chalked it up to a domestic screaming match and left it at that. They told both "Chris" and my roommate to leave and cool off. My roommate went to her boyfriends while "Chris" left.

Apparently he returned soon thereafter and methodically went through the house, tearing up the living room, kitchen, our rooms, the bathroom and the like. Everything was torn up, sprayed with furniture polish, emptied, broken, etc.

When my housemates returned they called the cops who returned. Then "Chris" returned and was arrested.

A month later he returned a changed man. He explained that he was diagnosed with a schizophrenic disorder and had been placed on Lithium. He realized he had problems when his own mother placed a restraining order on him.

Over the next year or so I heard nothing of him.

Then there was a rash of vandal attacks on cemeteries and synagogues. I happened to read a report of the court case when they caught the perpetrator. It was "Chris"-- the judge actually ordered his mouth duct-taped during one proceeding to stop him from yelling and screaming.

That's the last I heard or read of him.

Was he a terrorist? Nope. He was a sick man.

From looking at the tapes and reading the ramblings of the VA Tech attacker, all I could think of was "This was just like 'Chris'"

What was he trying to accomplish?

I had a co-worker several years ago who was hired on as holiday help. I interviewed her, my boss interviewed her and we thought she would make an excellent, hardworking addition to the company.

A few days into the job, we are all working around a table, handmaking bows for the holiday wreaths. Everything is going along very well, we are all getting along famously, we are having fun times. One day, "Shelley" proceeded to tell us a terrible story about how she had been assaulted on our local mass transit -- beaten and robbed. Wow, that's horrible, we all said. Over the days, more stories start to come out about terrible things that had been done to her -- interestingly, they had all been done by black people. One of my coworkers is starting to get really pissed off, thinking "Shelley" is a racist, and is close to chewing her out. But I began to suspect something was not quite right with her -- I grew up with a schizophrenic and I was getting that same feeling from "Shelley".

Sure enough, over the course of the next month, more and more stories would come out, each more fantastical and completely batshit than the next. My favorite was how, during a visit to Cape Canaveral "Shelley" had taken, George Bush Sr. had noticed she was trying to enter a restricted area and had used a machine to start a terrible thunderstorm as a way to frighten her. She was certain that something really import had been in that area, something Sr. didn't want her to discover. There was a "them" in her life too, who did things to her apartment or stole items from her, followed her to work and were out to get her.

Other than the incredibly strange things she said, "Shelley" appeared perfectly normal. She held down a job, went to school, had an apartment, even functioned fairly well in society.

One day she brought me in a file she wanted me to read -- it was an employee file from Macy's. In it was a doctor's evaluation of her mental health -- she suffered from paraniod schizophrenia, but was determined to not be a danger to herself or others.

"Shelley's" brain told her that the world was full of black people who were out to assault her and steal from her, that "they" were out to get her, and that the government had a machine to control the weather. THAT WAS HER REALITY. To her it was as real as the blue sky and green trees the rest of us see when we go outside.

Cho's "reality" was exactly what you read in that "manifesto" - how absolutely terrifying it must have been for him to live in that world.

Did his actions "terrify" the people he assaulted? Yes. Is he a terrorist in the traditional sense of the word? No, no more than "Shelley" was a racist.