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Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:21 AM
Original message
Salon: Pigs might rank with apes, dolphins in terms of self-awareness and advanced intelligence
Pigs Prove to Be Smart, if Not Vain

By NATALIE ANGIER

Published: November 9, 2009

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/science/10angier.html



We’ve all heard the story of the third Little Pig, who foiled the hyperventilating wolf by building his house out of bricks, rather than with straw or sticks as his brothers had done. Less commonly known is that the pig later improved his home’s safety profile by installing convex security mirrors at key points along the driveway.

Well, why not? In the current issue of Animal Behaviour, researchers present evidence that domestic pigs can quickly learn how mirrors work and will use their understanding of reflected images to scope out their surroundings and find their food. The researchers cannot yet say whether the animals realize that the eyes in the mirror are their own, or whether pigs might rank with apes, dolphins and other species that have passed the famed “mirror self-recognition test” thought to be a marker of self-awareness and advanced intelligence.

To which I say, big squeal. Why should the pigs waste precious mirror time inspecting their teeth or straightening the hairs on their chinny-chin-chins, when they could be using the mirror as a tool to find a far prettier sight, the pig heaven that comes in a bowl?

The finding is just one in a series of recent discoveries from the nascent study of pig cognition. Other researchers have found that pigs are brilliant at remembering where food stores are cached and how big each stash is relative to the rest. They’ve shown that Pig A can almost instantly learn to follow Pig B when the second pig shows signs of knowing where good food is stored, and that Pig B will try to deceive the pursuing pig and throw it off the trail so that Pig B can hog its food in peace.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. Maybe it's time we stop eating them, then.
Flamesuit on.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Agree. Donning flamesuit.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Intelligence doesn't equate to sentience
Just saying. Otherwise, if you're a vegetarian or vegan for ethical reasons, all the more power to you. I'm not that evolved.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. So you support eating Republicans, then?
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
36. Heavens, no. Too fatty.
Heart attack on a plate.

Well, except for Coulter, maybe... :evilgrin:
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. You can do whatever you can justify.
But your statement "intelligence doesn't equate to sentience"
simply does not make sense. It merely expresses your
discomfort with the facts in the article.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. You're right.
Sentience begins as soon as any breathing creature is born. That's a whole 'nother thread though.

Just saying.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. I eat meat, so there
but after seeing my two parrots truly go through quite a bit of grieving when my Cockatiel passed last month, I am sorry I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Oh and by the way the two birds, like me, are omnivores... which means they eat meat too. After all smaller mammals, birds and grubs their two species have been observed eating in the wild ain't tofu.

But if you think sentience is limited to humans, don't bother with all recent research. We are getting close to realizing that yes... other species on this world are self aware and even sentient.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. To the vegi-curious, I used to suggest not eating mammals.
But over the past two decades, research has shown that those birds are just too damn smart! ;)
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I stopped eating all of our four legged and winged friends when I was 12.
Love their company too much to kill them.
Prefer them to people most of the time.
BHN
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. No, they're still much tastier than apes or dolphins.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
67. So you've eaten ape and dolphin, have you?
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. +1. nt
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. When you pry my x-mas crackling from my cold dead hands. nt
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. Maybe it's time they stop tasting so good.
Flame-suit on.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
53. Damn straight.
If god didn't want us to eat pigs, he wouldn't have made them out of ham and ribs. Mmmmmmm, ribs. A pig has like a thousand different parts and almost all of them are delicious. I refuse to believe that's just a coincidence.
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
64. Pork tastes like people
At least that's what the research reports!
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. I read somewhere that in Africa human meat is called "long-pork"
So that research might be on to something. ;-)
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. That was in the islands of the South Pacific. (nt)
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. I agree. Eating a pig is like eating a German Shepherd or something.
Plus, it's disgusting, greasy meat, as I recall from my childhood.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Let me make you a pork loin
that would change your mind. Herbs, garlic, crispy. I am salivating just thinking about it.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
57. But the German Shepherd loin might taste better.
You're arguing on the X axis against an argument on the Y axis. Apples vs. oranges.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. ok
if on one hand you attempt to equate a german shepard to a pig, then attempt to disconnect a dog from a pig, you are a bit confused and scattered.

On a very real perspective, I doubt that a GS is anywhere remotely as tasty as a pig. If is was, than I might be asking for a GS roast instead of a pork one.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Your preference for pig over dog is a cultural one.
Travel a bit: People eat dogs, cats, horses, monkeys, apes, crickets, etc.

Does that mean that American tastes are superior to all others? Or does it mean that you grew up in a culture that considered some of the above "pets" and others "meat?"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #68
74. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. Already did. Not being able to digest pig too well was the start
and the brainpower kept me on the straight and narrow. I figure if I don't eat dogs then eating pigs is out.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. I wont eat them, they deserve their lives
They are so beautiful, and I love non human animals so much, they are innocent.
I dont kill the innocent.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. I don't think innocent or guilty applies to animals
Because if they be innocent, then they can be guilty. You can't humanize animals, remember Moby Dick? They are primal. The same house-cat that snuggles up against you will gleefully rip open birds or mice even if they aren't hungry. Cute mother sows sometimes kill their offspring.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. Quite so. n/t
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
62. When they pry my bottle of BBQ sauce out of my cold, dead hands!
:P
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Regret My New Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
71. No way! Their delicious brains will be even more delicious now.
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. This is why I stopped eating them nearly thirty years ago.
Edited on Thu Nov-12-09 12:41 AM by Big Blue Marble
Even back then researchers were discovering that pigs
could do simple arithmetic. That was enough for
me to realize that an animal that smart must suffer
tremendously when raised in the conditions of factory
farms. Never ate another pig.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. +many
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
55. I was about 15 and saw a truckful of cattle go by.
I made eye contact with a pair of big, soulful brown eyes.

I stopped eating cows and stopped eating pigs. That was almost 30 years ago.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
6. That's no surprise to anyone who has ever raised them
I haven't, but I had several friends who raised pigs, and they all swore they were highly intelligent. Smarter than dogs, at the very least. My wife had a pig that could count eletric pulses in a fence and time his escape through it. The fence sent the pulses in a pattern, and the pig would always bolt through the fence during the longest pause between pulses. He would stand at the fence watching it, then would bolt. The only way he could have known which pulse it followed was to count.

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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
61. I had a sow...
that was smarter than that. She'd send one of her brood, or a subordinate sow, to check to see if the fence was on or not. I witnessed more than one "conversation" between the boss sow and the subordinate... the boss grumbling low and the subordinate getting increasingly agitated and high-pitched in her own vocalizations. Then the sub would go down and carefully test the fence. If it was off.... KYAG... mass breakout. And for no reason I could determine. I think it was the old sow's way of lighting me up.

Pigs are smarter than a lot of people... certainly Republicans.

I cannot/will not eat factory pork. It is wrong in so many ways.

My pigs lived like royalty, and had only one really bad day... moment actually. The last thing they saw was a little pile of grain.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. endowed w/ intelligence, but not cuteness,
I feel sorry for them
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Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Aw, they have their own kind of cuteness.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. I stand corrected
that is a very cute pig!

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
9. It's funny to watch kittens with a mirror
but they eventually do figure it out, even if they don't use it to find prey or avoid having littermates sneak up on them. They do seem to get it's their own reflection but cats, being selfish but not vain, just ignore them after that.

I'm not a bit surprised about porcine intelligence. I've always considered them extremely intelligent animals, far too intelligent to use as food and certainly too intelligent to subject to factory farm conditions. That latter is why I avoid pork and pork products.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Agree! On all counts.
I do have ONE cat though who is VERY mirror conscious.
He love to snuggle with me and look at our images in a mirror
across the room.
He seems to find comfort in it.
Looking at the two of us, that is.
It's strange.
BHN
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
17. Arnold Ziffel would agree.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
21. 'Pigs Prove to Be Smart, if Not Vain'.
Definite link to humans.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. are sure that's not
Vain, if not smart? (for humans, of course)
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
22. Oh, great. I've been eating Land Dolphin. n/t
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. Amusing (to me) and off-topic:
Many people don't know that cetaceans returned to the ocean from a land species.

So the ancestors of dolphins most likely looked like this:

Pakicetid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakicetid

or possibly this:

Indohyus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indohyus

So dolphins are really Water Wolves...or possibly Water Deer. :D
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
23. Well at least when people call me a pig here I can say "Yeah, I am smart and taste good, wanna bite?
:)
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
25. Well, great -- what will we compare Repugs to now ? nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Canned spinach?
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
27. Same reason it is disgusting to eat Octopus n/y
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. It's disgusting to eat octopus?
Calamari and Scungilli are some of my favorite foods.
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NoGOPZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. I don't think I'd consider Scungilli octupus. They're snails, not squid. nt
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. but this is really good
http://greekfood.about.com/od/fishappetizersmezethes/r/htapothipsito.htm

Greek restaurant round the corner does a great version of this recipe...succulent.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
29. k
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
32. James Cromwell gets it.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
59. But will he eat sheep? n/t
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #59
73. Not after working on Babe.
He says that working with all of those intelligent (albeit trained) animals convinced him to go vegetarian.
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nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
33. We'll just have to change our rationale for eating them.
If we eat enough of them, it'll keep us safe from the ensuing porcine takeover.
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Amaya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
34. Bacon
:9 :bounce:
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-12-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. And here they come, right on schedule. (nt)
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. That's because one thing people don't like
is when other people consistently demand they change and then demonize them if they don't share your point of view. Not you in particular, but that is typically the routine here.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. You don't see me posting slaughterhouse pics in the Food forum.
:shrug:

But thanks for avoiding the broad brush. I do appreciate it. :thumbsup:
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #52
58. So because you do not go to the extreme POV
you are unassailable? hmm
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. Well, yes.
Or at very least, it means that I'm neither a hypocrite nor an evangelist, and I can't be blamed for the actions of those who do those activities.

But the real take-away is this: Someone who posted a picture of a steaming, delicious horse-meat steak in the middle of a DU thread discussing the intelligence of horses would be pilloried. But due to the dominant "pigs are food and food alone!" paradigm in the US, we can't have a discussion of the intelligence of pigs without some asshole saying, "Hurr durr, I loves me some bacon!"

So it goes. I'm not surprised anymore, just disappointed.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #69
75. Well I think you can chalk that off to
the vegonazi's who pretty much come in here and evangelize, demonize and marginalize.

Since you seem rather rational. I do subscribe to an almost vegetarian menu for health reasons. I don't eat beef at every meal although I love a good steak every once and a while. I do decry the food factoring approach because I do believe they are cruel and we can do better. I buy organic meats and when hunting use the whole animal.

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kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
39. They may be smarter than other animals
but they are still just animals who are raised for food.
Advanced intelligence? I don't think so, or it would be a whole helluva lot harder to get them in the chutes to be nutted or gutted.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. Animal Planet did a story on --
Edited on Fri Nov-13-09 03:08 PM by Hell Hath No Fury
a person who had a pig as a pet. That person suffered a heart attack and their pig left the house to go look for help. The pig finally stopped a car and led the driver back to the house and the heart attack victim.

That's pretty fucking smart to me. I would far prefer the company of that pig than a good number of people I have met.

Found her:

http://www.erielifemagazine.com/general/did-you-see-lulu-the-pig.php



“I tried to scream for help but no one seemed to hear me,” says Jo Ann. “I managed to reach for my alarm clock and throw it through the window, but no one came. Bear and Lulu were just looking at me and whimpering. I was praying to God to take care of my family, and I kept saying to Lulu ‘go night-night, go lay down’ but she wouldn’t. Then she disappeared.”

Lulu, who had never previously left the confines of the yard at home, squeezed her way through the trailer’s doggy door and ran to the nearest road. In what seemed like a conscious act to attract help, Lulu, who weighed about 125 pounds at the time, lied in the middle of the road. When cars would swerve by the massive animal, Lulu would run back to the trailer to check on Jo Ann and then return to the road.

snip...

In one last attempt to save her owner’s life, Lulu went back to the road, finally grabbing the attention of a man driving a flash convertible. He went over to Lulu, but as soon as he approached her, she got up and started to walk toward the trailer. Lulu kept walking, occasionally checking to make sure the man, who has never been identified, was following her. She led him right to the front door of the trailer.


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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. Neat story, thanks for the link. (nt)
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
44. But they are tops in taste
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. Couldn't find a different bacon picture to link?
Edited on Fri Nov-13-09 03:16 PM by Ignis
Because I do believe that very one was posted upthread.

ETA: Here's a much more delicious one, gratis:
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #54
78. how bout this?
oink, y'all

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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
45. I knew this back when "Babe" first came out
He was teaching dogs a thing or two.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
50. The research indicated doesn't actually say anything along those lines.

Research: "pigs can use mirrors, although they have not demonstrated the ability to recognise themselves in a mirror".

Step 1: "pigs might be able to recognise themselves in a mirror".
Step 2: Recognising oneself in a mirror is something only a few species can do.

Title: "Pigs might rank with apes, dolphins in terms of self-awareness and advanced intelligence"

Science journalism for non-scientists is nigh-unversally shoddy.
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Sultana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
63. Smart and Tasty
:9
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. Just like baby humans!
Though probably a bit smarter.
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
66. It is why...
... I don't be eatin' them.

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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
76. But they definitely taste better than barbequed ape or dolphin!
:rofl:
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TCJ70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
77. Then we should kill them...
...before they REALLY wise up and take over!
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