Mental Illness and Murder

First I will preface this with a FACT. The mentally ill are more often the victims of violent crimes than the perpetrators.

When I was in my teens and twenties I was homeless. I have always been poor. I now have a home thanks to my girlfriend of 15 years but I am still unemployed, uninsured and unable to get any health care, including medication for my bipolar disorder. Issues of Poverty and mental illness are MY issues.

What is the most amazing thing to me is how everyone has turned what Cho did into a gun issue. This is NOT a gun issue. Period. It is an issue about untreated mental illness. The facts are, regardless of how you feel about guns, if his illness had been treated, we wouldn't be having these discussions. We wouldn't be needing to.

Usually the only way ideological battles touch the lives of the mentally ill, is by pushing their own LIFE AND DEATH struggles to the back of the line...way back...buried and forgotten.

...and all The Leftist Talking Heads...sitting around...brainstorming...about THE High and Mighty Principles and The Constitution and Noble Ideals waaaaaay into the night. Designer beer or a nice Merlot, smoke something...if you care to...put on the music, gaze fondly at posters of Clinton...a mellow Brie and a Nice Baguette...or some wafer crackers with cracked pepper...some sun-dried tomato Hummus....all from Whole Foods Market and Whoohoohoo...a frothing at the mouth High Liberal Time.

Wealthy Highly Educated Liberals walk past the Homeless, the Almost Homeless, The Walking Wounded, The Mentally Ill, without even seeing them...EXACTLY the same way Wealthy Highly Educated Conservatives do. Exactly. The Real Problems of These Real People are just as invisible to the Democrats In Office as they are to the Republicans In Office.

I am so so so so so tired of the issues of The Poor, The Homeless, The Marginal, The Mentally Ill, The Walking Wounded, being shoved to the bottom....The Last on The List. ...buried, tamped down, some decorative gravel thrown on top...COMPLETELY FUCKING FORGOTTEN....AGAIN...so all the Brains can spar and debate and Play the Game. Until the next time some really sick kid takes out a bunch of people. Then we can all debate about guns again and just forget the mental illness part of the equation.

Let me give you a little anecdote from my homeless days. I begged. I stole. It's how homeless people get money and food. I had people spit on me MORE THAN ONCE. I had one pick-up truck of fine upstanding young frat boys get out of their trunk and dump a can of garbage on my head. Do you think I would have cared about Principles if I could have stolen from them? Do you? Did I want to kill them? Yes. I'm not that sick. Lucky fucking thing for them. You cannot treat people that way and expect the world to work right.

I suggest you google "Gheel Belgium". It can also be spelled "Geel". THEY know how to treat the mentally ill and always remember there but by the grace of God go I. (I am an atheist but I really like that.) Mental illness touches most people in some way. Stop pretending we don't exist until we shoot up a school. ...and then please don't turn it into a gun debate. This boy was sick. As I said, if that illness had been treated we wouldn't be having these gun discussions.

We are in the millions and millions and millions and our numbers are growing and eventually...society is either going to have to kill us or help us. Marginalizing us, only TURNS us into dangerous people.
Lee

I couldn't agree more.

I have a family member who is schizophrenic. It's been easier pulling hens teeth from a rabbits ass than to get help for her.

I'm sick of hearing about the damn guns too! If we were all mentally sound, there would be no murders by gun, hand, hatchet, elevator shaft, whatever!

To blame this recent shooting on guns is absurd. It's putting the horse before the cart. Treat the mental illness and the rest will fall in line.

Good luck to you! You sound highly intelligent... much like my family gal... IQ of 170... became part of the problem as she quickly figured out how to work the system;)

Best of all to you!

Thank-you Juniper. Yeah, my IQ is way up there too. Not quite that high but close. That and $2.00 will get a cup of coffee. Just think what we might have accomplished if our illness had been treated. Just think.

Thanks again.
Lee

Is that too much to ask?

I think the point here is they need more help then they are able to get.

Mental illness comes in many forms, and you'd be surprised to know the percentage of the country who fall into that category.

Guns will become the least of our problems if we could only address the root issues.

We are spending far too much time on the gun issue. It's merely a symptom of a much greater problem.

Problem is the system failed. From MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18217741/site/newsweek

But Rand and others—including federal officials—say that enforcement of the provision in the law barring the mentally ill from buying handguns has been erratic at best. More than 20 states don’t report any mental health records—including court records of mental commitments—to the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), the central federal database for background checks on firearm purchases, according to Paul Bresson, a FBI spokesman. Other states, including Virginia, do report some records,

WHY don't these states reports? Have courts said no? Is the medical community resisting? Is is simple laziness? Is it it due to lack of money? Why isn't it mandatory that all states report to NCIS?

Jsut more reasons why we need National Health Care as soon as possible, and more money for Mental Health Care NOW!

it IS a mentally-ill-person-with-a-gun issue.

So why don't we turn this post into another frigging gun debate!

Some people will turn this into a gun debate no matter what. If his illness had been treated, there would have been no guns to debate about.
Lee

There would be far less worrying to do about murders, with or without guns.

Harping on guns only serves to divide, and it doesn't do a thing to stop killings.

Strike at the root and you will solve far more problems than your issue with guns.

What a loaded phrase 'mental illness'. I often wonder why there has not been more evolution in the study of the human mind. You know, like cause and effect...action and reaction. Could it be it is not cost effective, for the 'civilized western world' to examine the effects it has on it's own society?

How bad does someone need to get before they are forced to seek help? As it stands now a mentally ill person pretty much has to hurt someone before they can be forced to accept help.

Some people "seek help" using poorly developed coping (mind altering) methods. Some of this to divorced, narrowing the source of support if they have a family environment to begin with.

Do you assume humans acting like this don't attempt any coping mechanisms? Lots of them fail with these methods.:shrug:

The real question might be, "How bad to we have to become as a society before the growing problems associated with poverty and poor environment are recognized and treatment becomes an option from a professional?"

I suffer from clinical depression myself. I've tried all the self fixes. What I was refering to are those who are severely mentally ill yet refuse any help. My former sister-in-law is one of those. She was violent from the time she could walk. She spent most of her life in and out of residential programs, her mother fought hard to get her all the help that could be found. Now she is 19, on SSDI and living with drug addicts. Her mother can no longer make her do anything. No one can, and unless she hurts someone there won't be any help to be had. She doesn't see herself as ill, she never has.

The laws in this country make it very difficult for families to help their loved ones after they become "adults".

There are some who are mentally ill (thankfully a small percentage), who act out or become downright violent, sometimes frequently, yet we don't seem to have a way to deal with them. Not without "violating their privacy or civil rights," anyway.

And I suspect that's the crux of that subset of problem cases. It's especially difficult when a young person, perhaps a pre-teen or teen, is sent by parents or courts for treatment, inpatient or outpatient, but doesn't seem to do well. They may even be made worse by illtreatment from caregivers, and do everything they can thereafter to AVOID treatment and especially confinement for treatment.

Unfortunately, our system for "helping" the mentally ill has become, just like our regular medical healthcare system in this country, strictly a for-profit system. The field no longer draws predominantly from the pool of individuals who are drawn by their natures and inclinations to the "helping" vocations. Now it's business, pure and simple; and this change over time has resulted in far less compassionate and dutifully skilled persons in positions of providing the "care" for mental patients. Abuse and poor treatment, including misdiagnoses and giving of the wrong medications, for mental patients is common.

I'm just saying what everybody really knows, or should know. It stands to reason that we would end up with many more dangerous patients "falling through the cracks" -- a phrase, btw, which we've heard in Cho's case as we continue to hear it in many others. What about Harris and Kliebold? And the many other now-notorious names we've come to associate with the rash, the trend, the volume of school shootings?

Many if not most of those kids had been repeatedly involved in trouble -- sometimes serious trouble. Threats had been made. Weapons in many cases were available or already obtained and being used for practice. Friends and family members, and often even others who knew them less well, like classmates, were very well aware that these individuals were powder kegs and quite likely to eventually do harm to others as well as themselves.

Suicidal persons have a completely different outlook on the world, also -- we shouldn't forget that. Once a person gets past the point where s/he no longer sees a positive future as possible, s/he simply doesn't see anything quite the same way as the rest of us. "What have I got to lose?" is what most of them base their choices on, believing as they probably do that once they're dead, nothing else can hurt THEM, at least.

Cho clearly wanted to be (in)famous and to make his grievances known to the world. He took a LOT of time preparing his "manifesto," and it is just amazing that apparently no one was aware of what he was doing for all those hours, weeks, months, and in fact YEARS, as his rage simmered and then boiled and then "blew."

But those who know and care about a troubled person with mental and emotional problems often have tried repeatedly, as with your SIL's case, to get help for them -- only to be frustrated by the limitations and barriers they face.

I remember my 18-year-old best friend in college who killed herself in 1969 was sent to court after a first suicide "attempt" when she took her father's gun and drove to Tulsa from Muskogee. She called a friend there who'd been a gym teacher when she was in a convent her junior year of high school, and this lady was a police officer too. Mary Pat just wanted to say "goodbye," but this woman talked her into coming in to the police station, which was amazing.

The moment Mary Pat walked in the door, a group of officers "jumped" her, wrested away her pistol, and she was jailed. At court, her father was given legal custody even though she was 18, and Mary Pat was ordered to treatment. But the shrink her father chose was NOT right for her, was male (when most of her problems revolved around sex and dating and possible marriage in the future, all of which terrified and horrified her), and she couldn't talk to the guy AT ALL.

His idea of dealing with her sexual issues was to give her a copy of Masters and Johnson's classic book on human sexuality! Like she could read this and all her sexual difficulties would be solved.

Just a few months later, Mary Pat took her own life on campus with a pistol she had easily purchased at a local pawn shop. She WAS 18, after all, and I guess either her court records were not checked (in 1969 in Oklahoma, that's likely) or else the danger she posed was ignored by whoever sold her the weapon.

I'm not sure what can be done, just how the laws should be changed to get control of dangerous mental patients and prevent them from easily harming either themselves or others -- but I do think it's clear that the laws do need to be changed!

In Cho's case, because he was a legal adult in his early 20's, the officials and local healthcare professionals could not even TELL his parents about his worsening problems! This is just -- well, "insane."

I know we need to protect many such patients from their own parents, as so often they are the source of the abuse that caused the mental illness in the first place. But there has to be a way to find some middle ground here, where dangerous people who need to have treatment forced on them in order to protect both them and everyone around them, can be dealt with humanely and properly.

I wonder if any state or local community has figured out a way to handle this already, and we just haven't heard about it? I hope the VT rampage and all that's come out about the history of the offender in that case prompts every town and city, every state and our federal system as well, to look long and hard at what can be done to FIX THIS PROBLEM!

Not feeling very confident that it will happen ... and then the story will die down and everyone will forget (except those who cannot forget) ... until it happens again....

Thank you !!

I entered this post yesterday and it was buried three pages back in about five minutes.
It's another fresh example of what is happening due to the lack of available treatment for the mentally ill.


"snip"
By Kathleen Kreller and Heath Druzin - Idaho Statesman
Edition Date: 04/18/07


"The parents of John Delling, who is suspected in the killings of two men and the shooting of another, expressed grief over their son's alleged crimes in an open letter to the Idaho Statesman. "snip".




'snip'
"To The Idaho Statesman,

On behalf of our family, I’d like to express to anyone and everyone touched by the recent tragedies our deep sadness at the loss and injury of those three fine young men. 'snip'


'snip'
One thing is clear. There was no preventative safety net in place to correct or rein-in a ‘potentially serious’ situation; no legislation, no mental health entity, nor any church-based aid could get a firm handle on this. John was very sick, and needed more than this system had to offer.

Our prayers go out to everyone,

The Dellings " "snip'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=691362&mesg_id=691362

http://www.idahostatesman.com/102/story/79994.html

I am sorry for your plight in life. It sounds like you are doing better. Thank goodness.

However...

I cannot and will not make this KILLER a victim though. I am sorry, I just cannot do that. I just CAN'T.

At this point it is hard to have a lot of compassion for him but he was once a victim. Now he's a killer...a dead killer. It kind of messed up his life too. If he had been treated maybe there would have been no victims.
Lee

Nothing to add. You said it all.

K&R

I am sorry for what you have gone through.
I agree.
I have taken care of homeless patients who were bashed in the head while they slept for no reason other than they were homeless.
But for the grace of God...MANY of us, myself included, are but a few paychecks away from homelessness.
It behooves those of us who have food, water, shelter to find solutions for the lesser of those among us...so if nothing else, we have a soft landing when we fall.
:hug: my friend.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left.

34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.'

37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' 40 And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.'

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

--Matthew 25:31-46

I'm so glad you are no longer homeless, though I know how you must remain anxious about ever coming to that again. And I know we have at least one DUer who's been here as long as I have who's been homeless the entire time. She's mentioned it, too, more than once, yet she remains homeless. Here among us, in the midst of us, that just doesn't seem right to me, and if I could do a damn thing about it, I assure you I would!

My problem is, I'm barely better off than you, living on $740/mo Disability, and my lot rent just went up today to $375/mo.

I can relate strongly to what you say in your OP -- partly from personal experience but mostly from what I've been through with close friends, including veterans.

I think people who have found themselves sympathetic with the plight of veterans who have resorted to extremes (like holding their families hostage to get PTSD treatment) must also realize that the same ideas apply to "regular folks" who live among us everyday.

They live among us -- but they are not accepted as "one of us." They are "them," "the other," and those names you listed. The marginalized, the unwanted, the unwashed (hard to bathe when you're homeless), the unmentionable.

I've lost four of my closest friends in my life to suicide -- all young adults. And every single one of them could have been helped, their deaths prevented. What I think many don't consider is that there are literally thousands of suicides every year by despairing souls who have given up and decided to just end their pain and sadness by ending their lives.

For every one of those suicides, it COULD HAVE BEEN someone who was angry enough at their fate to strike out at others as they went out. Instead, these were more depressed and less angry, so they only harmed themselves.

I feel like the clock is ticking, in a very real sense, on the condition of our culture in this country. I agree with you that those who are comfortable -- and who most often feel quite safe in their insular, protected worlds -- don't seem to have any qualms as they walk right past the lowly sufferers on the streets, under the bridges, in the abandoned buildings. They curse when they hear of a building burning down because some homeless folks started a fire to keep warm in sub-freezing temperatures. They turn up their noses at the sight and smell of the "bums" they see on their city streets and downtowns.

People want to see "something done" about the unsightly, smelly, "crazy" denizens they sometimes see in spite of their attempts to ignore them completely. But no one seems to want to do what it takes to truly intervene and rescue the lost souls whose numbers increase every day.

I understand Texasgal's remark about not being willing to see Cho as a "victim." She just can't. And I can't blame her for that -- I think many of us have the exact same feelings.

But if we think about it, IF Cho had not gone so far, if he had not harmed anyone else but, say, had made a true suicide attempt, shooting only himself but perhaps in the dorm suite or in a deserted classroom at night -- would we see him differently? Of course we would.

Our rage at him, and our compassion for the innocents he killed and wounded, far surpasses our ability to have pity on Cho. But what I think was called for in his case, as in so many cases, is that people SEE HIM long before he reached the stage of wreaking his twisted, outraged revenge on others.

I personally was appalled when I listened to his two suitemates' telling stories about him, as they both kept SMILING weird little smiles as they described Cho's odd behavior. I had to wonder if they hadn't done some teasing of him themselves because they clearly found him "just too strange" and they smiled when they talked about him. SMILED! In one case derisively, I was certain of it!

If they didn't taunt him, didn't they ignore him right in their midst in spite of such bizarre behavior as they described? And isn't that just what everyone else did, in the end?

I think you have it right -- it's a problem that revolves around the fact that our culture prefers to ignore the crisis of mental illness among us UNTIL it gets in their faces with a slaughter such as that at VTech. THEN everyone has an opinion!

But what if they had been around Cho BEFORE he went on his rampage? Would they too have preferred to just brush off what they witnessed and assume someone else was dealing with him, or that he probably wouldn't do anyone harm?

I don't know, but it seems likely to me that a great many people had opportunities to intervene sooner. I don't blame them for what he did -- not at all. And I am angry at Cho for causing the pain and sorrow that he alone did cause.

I just wish someone -- anyone -- everyone -- who "got it" that he was in trouble had refused to turn away and had instead reached out, persistently, until his rage was defused.

I do think it could have been.

So we have a homeless person right here on DU? That is so sad. I worry continually about ending up back on the streets. I also understand vets. I have friends who are Viet Nam vets. I suffer from PTSD along with bipolar, with all the accompanying crap that comes with it. ...the hyper vigilance, the flashbacks and nightmares. I was badly abused as a child and then on the streets.
A month from now, no one will be discussing this. No one cares or they feel impotent to do anything. I don't know what is going to happen in our country.
I hope you do check out "Gheel Belgium". The way they take care of their mentally ill folks is just incredible and they've been doing it for decades. The WHOLE town. I will try to find a good article about it and post it. It is truly amazing. They all...the whole town...take them in. They are welcome in everyone's homes. They have shelter, food, medical care and LOVE. It is amazing.
Lee

I have wondered how she can read DU and post here but figure she must use a public library or other facility (or perhaps a friend's house?) for this.

I worry about her all the time. I've participated in several threads here with her, related to poverty, mostly -- a subject near and dear to my own life.

I should emphasize that I have no reason whatsoever to believe that Bobbolink suffers from any mental illness. I know from her posts that she is a compassionate, dear soul and quite articulate. I don't think she would mind my mentioning her here. After one particularly moving thread on poverty, I put her and several other DUers on my Buddy List (and told them so), but we have not had private contact yet.

Strange, isn't it?, that even among us who must deal with such difficult issues on a daily basis, it is STILL hard to broach the subject sometimes and talk freely about it even with each other. :(

I have hoped others who could help Bobbolink DID contact her privately to offer substantial help....

About Gheel Belgium. I had planned to investigate that further, and first thing this morning after seeing your last post decided to do so. Amazing story!

There is abundant info on the Web on Gheel and the "legend" of Dymphna, a 13th century princess who fled her father the king who had incestuous plans for her. She ran away with an old priest, her confessor, and some others, according to the story, but the king had her tracked down and her companions killed. When his men couldn't kill Dymphna, the king beheaded her himself, and her remains are in the town of Gheel to this day. Dymphna became the patron saint of the town because "lunatics" and epileptics and others reportedly were cured after praying at her gravesite, and of course she was martyred at the hands of her warped father. (Interesting to me that a mentally ill man caused the massacre of innocents, yet they are the focus of mercy and kindness by the townsfolk!)

This is just the background story on how Gheel became a place where the mentally ill were looked upon differently and treated compassionately. Here is a bit from one site to summarize:

Under (Saint Dymphna's) patronage, the inhabitants of Gheel have been known for the care they have given to those with mental illnesses. By the close of the 13th century, an infirmary was built. Today the town possesses a first-class sanatorium, one of the largest and most efficient colonies for the mentally ill in the world. It was one of the first to initiate a program through which patients live normal and useful lives in the homes of farmers or local residents, whom they assist in their labor and whose family life they share. The strength of Dympna's cultus is evidenced by this compassionate work of the people of Gheel for the mentally ill at a time when they were universally neglected or treated with hostility.

More info here, starts about 1/4 way down the page: http://www.saintpatrickdc.org/ss/0515.htm

Other snippits: "...it is a classic example of a folktale adapted as the life-story of a saint."

Today the town possesses a first-class sanatorium, one of the largest and most efficient colonies for the mentally ill in the world. It was one of the first to initiate a program through which patients live normal and useful lives in the homes of farmers or local residents, whom they assist in their labor and whose family life they share. The strength of Dympna's cultus is evidenced by this compassionate work of the people of Gheel for the mentally ill at a time when they were universally neglected or treated with hostility.

Must go feed the birds and water my flowers now but will return later. I hope others check into this, and thank you again, so much, Lee, for bringing this to our attention!

(I've reread your OP -- just so amazing what you have survived! I didn't bring up PTSD related to YOU, but whenever I know someone has suffered trauma and tremendous suffering, I always assume there is a great likelihood of PTSD. Thanks for sharing your story, and I hope many DUers read it and respond to your excellent points.)

During a time when we're all looking at candidates for 2008, we MUST remember this!

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

So, while mental illness may well be a factor in THIS case, making any generalities in this area would be misleading and not supported by the data so far as I know. My experience here is in working with expert witnesses and getting people OUT of the asylum who were found not guilty by reason of insanity and having to prove mental health and nondangerousness, relatively speaking. not easy.

That being said, it's also true that jails are filled with untreated mental illness. Once they get in the system, it's harder for them to get out. Plus being in jail or prison would drive anyone "nuts"

That was my first sentence. We are more likely to be victims than perpetrators.
Lee

I'm so sorry that you have to battle this disorder without the proper medication{battling it with it is hard enough}You are absolutely right to be angry about it.My wife is medicated for this and still struggles with it.I applaud your courage and hope your triggers are kept to a minumum.MG

and ironic ..Cho also in his"manifesto" was saying how everyone IGNORED his situation and pain.Which would be his sickness and the assholes in his younger years teasing and taunting him for being different or even having symptoms of mental illness.In case you don't get it all you high and mighty Dem's and rethugs mental illness HURTS the person who has it , it hurts in ways the average person untouched by it cannot fathom As for the psychopaths and authoritarian fuckhead bullies who can't feel anything, they still keep on doing their sadistic behind closed doors part by creating more victims who will suffer with trauma induced mental illness and sadly often these popular thugs form cliques and get themselves into positions of power where they can screw over the homeless poor and mentally ill even more..

but tend to forget because it's so painful to deal with. I have spent some time in a halfway house (why is not relevant) and I've known formerly homeless people up close and personal. All except me were substance abusers and most of them were mentally ill. I also spent two years living with a paranoid schizophrenic. I know what you're talking about.

As an aside, judging from your writing skills & your impressive sense of judgement, you're clearly an intelligent person. Unless you are limited physically, I bet you could be a very successful person in anything you'd aspire to do. Shoot for the moon -- I have faith that you could be anything you want to be. :hug: