Frankly, I am quite PROUD of the members of DU today

And, I have a lot more hope I have had in a long time.

The betrayal of the dems has been met with anger, disappointment, fury, sadness, disbelief, shock, and a zillion other emotions.

But, the vast majority of DU members are displaying what defines the true left best attribute. The ability and willingness to bear up to difficult truthes and place their principles over their political loyalties. And, that is the most patriotic thing any person can do.

While the right is FOREVER (and I mean FOREVER) engaged in a game of grand self delusion and destruction, the left is open to facing hard truthes and unpleasant realities.

And, this is brutal truth served straight up. It is watching the capitulation of democratic leaders we trusted to fight for us, betray our deepest core beliefs for the PROFIT of corrupt and non-essential industry. It is watching our lives and financial futures being placed into the hands of the most unethical and terrible of thieves.

I faced these truthes earlier then some, but only because I lack their better nature (a jaded and crusty cynic since age 2). The people who have supported the dems and the President thus far and have allowed the benefit of the doubt are those who can't imagine that this President, who led a campaign of such hope and promise, would ever do this type of thing. As frustrated as I have been with some members of this community at times, I admire their ability to hope and believe and trust. But, today, the people are displaying that they are not fools, and that they will not allow themselves to be manipulated when harsh truth can't be denied.

And, because of this, we have hope. And, our country has hope. Acknowledging the reality of the situation we face empowers us to change it. I wrote this passage in a post on November 22 (full post is in my journal)...

"Maybe the country needed to see the betrayal of the great hope from the democratic party to shatter the illusion. Until we admit the truth and elect leaders who represent the principles we say we believe in, not a thing is going to change. If we take that lesson from what has occurred with Obama, it is the opportunity for our redemption as a people"

There are no easy answers and the acknowledgement of the reality of the current political system is only a first step. We face a monumental task in creating the type of change we believed would begin under this President. Our voices and activism must reach beyond message boards and email campaigns. However, there is time for those discussions in the days and weeks and months and years ahead.

But, today, we took a big step forward as a group. And, I am very proud of everyone!

just to clarify. The rationale for being loyal is that we're even CLOSE to passing health care reform.

I think we have to channel our collective anger in a positive manner. Start calling congress. Perhaps we can start with Reid and tell him to strip Lieberman of his chairmanship if he doesn't cooperate on health care?

But how is this not Reid's fault too?

and not Rahm and the WH.
That's all.

At least three quarters of the problems in the Senate are self inflicted by Reid. He's too noodle spined to stand up for principle.

When I heard that, 'Obamacare,' was now 'Liebermancare,' compliments of Obama, it was over for me.

I am completely disillusioned with Obama AND the Democratic party.

easier to diffuse the anger and not take responsibility for electing him unless one lives in Nevada.

then he's the man! "Give 'Em Hell Harry!", according to his emails.

I figure the odds of discovering cold fusion in my shoe tomorrow morning to be better than this happening... but I'd be happy to be proven wrong (on either count... cold fusion?? I'd be rich!!)

I've posted here and there that that's what Reid should do... but I doubt he reads, let alone listens to, my DU posts (though KO's special comment seemed to have a lot of elements of things I've been saying for weeks now... so a boy can hope... ;) )

At this point, the only one I hold to be as "in the clear of blame" as one can be in politics... is Nancy Pelosi. That's right... I'm hereby giving Pelosi kudos & cheers & due recognition... Cheers Nancy!
:toast:

should be handling Lieberman with a bit more, shall we say ... gusto?

... he's just the excuse. They could rein him in if they wanted to, they could rein in Nelson also.

No. I'm completely convinced that this is the bill Obama wanted all along and I hope it DIES.

IMO.

want health care reform. but this way they can shift the blame. The responsibility is clearly in the president's hands. He has not come out for decent health insurance reform. He seems content with the garbage bill the Senate has put together.

he should tell us. He has not. He is capitulating to the insurance industry. The sooner we realize this the sooner we can start fixing. I have given him the benefit of the doubt to the point that i realize is denial.

He has never said he wants a strong PO. He seems happy with the piece of shit the Senate calls a bill.

:grouphug:

Because that's the main thing that's on display here: the famous circular firing squad. Certainly nothing particularly noble.

we don't goosestep - THAT is the bottom line

who prefers emotionally laden rants I suppose it would seem like "goosestepping".

dissent leads to REAL CHANGE

mind trick. After examining something & finding it good, there can be a passionate & avid support of whatever cause. To mindlessly dissent, just because...... Stupid rebellion is lethal.

please; not even worth my time

huh

Shit on our own?

The only people shitting on anyone is the democratic party to the people.

I don't refer to the entire party, I refer to this administration and most congressional Demopublicans/Republicrats.

always been with trolls who definitely resemble your accusation.....but today, your accusation is just plain wrong for accusing all Dur's of such nonsense, the op is one of the few I have read today who seems to get it..

We can keep playing the game of tag teaming as the repubs are wont to do but in my opinion, the time for such grandstanding is long gone, too many serious issues are so easily being toyed with and or outright ignored that aids the average american citizen

And to any freeper or hanni ty loving fool reading this thread there is no more, you or us...

It is "us" and "them" and I hate to dispel you of your faux outrage but you are not in league with "them", like it or not you are one of us, and the reality of today's political arena is that it is no longer your side or our side running the show...

It is "them", and unless we quit battling each other with idiotic name calling and the like "Them" will win, and if you value anything in your life or care about your loved one's future in this country

turn off faux and quit listening to the likes of rush and company, even they aren't "them" but they sure do get paid well to help "them" keep Us fighting each other instead of taking the time to fight the ones who are truly guilty and it's obvious they like many will easily turn traitor if the paycheck is big enough..

we do not have to agree with each other, we do not even have to like each other but if we are to win this war against "us" instigated by "them" than like each other or not, we have no choice but to work together,

United we stand.....continue to remain Divided and we will surely fall...

and not only the media is guilty of ensuring we continue to despise each other but like it or not many religious leaders do the same and as do the media, there reward is obviously monetary not spiritual well being....

:dem:

-Laelth

:hi: :kick: :kick: :kick:

"Obama-Biden "09" Working Together To Give Us Our Government Back"
Nice!

I can tell by your post that you still believe it. You must not have read any news in the past year. You missed everything.

Then you go on with, "United we stand.....continue to remain Divided and we will surely fall..."
yes, we will fall out of power-- next election cycle, and it will the fault of our 'leadership'. Don't try to say its the democratic base's fault for not backing the leaders, when its the leaders working *directly against* the best traditions of our party. That's just you lashing out at the base because you CAN, and not putting the blame directly onto the leadership, because you cant.

You can't pick up a phone and be heard by the members of congress, or tell the president what you think. You can call their office and speak to an intern sure, they will add you to a spreadsheet that no one ever will ever look at. But you can bounce around here calling people names, so you pick that route. You dont have to feel powerless that way.

I understand.

One thing I think you crossed the rubicon on though, "turn off faux"... Do you really for a second beleive that ANYONE here watches fox news? People often accuse others here of listening to Rush and Beck, and being devotees of Fox news-- but I really doubt a single person here who isnt a 100% troll watches fox news.

Thats just more name silly calling to make yourself feel better.

The "united we stand" bit got us NAFTA and the trade agreements, the Iraq War. The list goes on and on. Obama postured as a man above corruption. We believed his act and placed our names and reputations on the line for him -- convinced that he was an honest man on our side. Increasingly, the truth is revealed. Obama is just another man who hopes to serve 8 years without angering the wealthy and then to proceed to make his fortune giving speeches to corporate leaders. Just another politician on the take. This bill proves it.

A champion of the people would be fighting the insurance companies with all his might. Look at Obama -- sitting at the table with them -- cozying up to them -- saying all the right things to us while making all the right deals with Aetna, etc.

I'm glad to see that the rose-colored glasses are coming off of more of DUers faces.

Integrity demonstrates itself in the ways that we handle the difficult moral decisions. Obama has failed too many times. And yet it would have been so easy for him to appoint someone other than Bernanke to the Fed, someone other than Geithner to Treasury, to support prosecuting those who broke the laws regarding torture, be honest and transparent with regard to wiretapping. But no, he has lacked the courage to do the right thing in any of those areas.

And yet we average citizens are required to live up to the highest standards of integrity -- and rightfully so.

Obama has failed us.

Did we ask to much? Is it too much to ask our president to stand up for our interests? I think not.

I support the firing squad.

Put your tired metaphor back where it belongs.

No, nothing noble about making nice with the people who sell out the American people.

are you referring to the people at Goldman Sachs, or the people from the pharmaceutical industry?

the democratic party is not ours, we are theirs.

not just the insurance industry. YES, they have to be feed something. I guess. But the whole pie? We are starving and yo tell us to ignore the one that won't let us eat. HA. Our own indeed. What exactly are congress and Obama fighting for? US? To have lower prescription costs? for instance. No they aren't. For poor people? HA. For women? HA de fucking ha. They are fighting for themselves. And they no longer represent us.

It is standing up for principle.

Let's remember what is behind the double-cross on this health care reform bill is not conviction, not principle but corruption and greed -- and it is on the part of Obama as well as on the parts of Landrieu, Nelson, Lieberman and the rest of them. From what I know of the Senate's proposed bill, it will lead to the bankruptcy of the nation. That bankruptcy will then be blamed on Medicare and Social Security.

As for passing an unacceptable bill now and then tweaking it later on -- NO!.

Not until we see the reformed NAFTA and other trade agreements. We fell for the promise that a law would be revised several times in the past. Never again.

Never trust an American president who authorizes or refuses to prosecute torture. A president who authorizes or refuses to prosecute torture prefers the expedient to the morally correct.

Morality is a very difficult challenge. Obama has failed to meet his personal challenges several times -- including on health care reform and on the torture and illegal wiretapping issues. Don't get me started on his appointments to Treasury, the Fed, etc.

Pragmatism is one thing. We can live with that. But expediency is immoral.

Obama's preference for easy compromise rather than the hard fight for what is right is a serious character flaw. It is fundamental to Obama's personality. I have no hope for him or for the Democratic Party unless we get new leadership. I will support a primary challenge in 2012.

+1 for extra puerile nastyness and a scatalogical mind.

not us. He is not one of us. There are two sides to this war. The ruling class and us peons. The Pres has not indicated for one minute that he sides with us on health insurance reform. Actually not on the wars either. Or how about kissing the asses of the bankers.

Pride, well you know all about that.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/illusions-and-bitterness/

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-treatment/the-left-playing-fire

"Jumped the shark" so original, so trite, and of course, so wrong.

as being thoughtful intellectuals.

I couldn't believe my ears.

Democratic principles exist separate from party. At one time, the Democratic Party was the party of slavery, and it was the Republicans who had the moral high ground. Party is nothing without a set of principles, and it is useless if they don't follow those principles.

A party that controls the House, Senate, and Whitehouse is betraying the American people with their timidity.

Both parties are capitulating to their corporate masters. How does that rate loyalty?

They need to hear the anger caused by what they are doing. If they pay attention to the anger and return to representing the people, then good. If they do not, then they're not worth supporting.

Because just about every time you post, you mention betrayal and the Democratic Party in the same sentence. In one of your other threads, you mention:

"If that is true, then Obama is just evil; I don't understand his motives, but I know that the majoriy of his policies need to be fought against."

And what provoked that response from you in that thread? Why do you feel Obama is just evil? Apparently for the heinous crime of possibly being "ideologically similar" to his long-time friend, Rahm Emmanuel.

Your pride makes me want to gag.

I'm ashamed of the lily-livered bullshit I've seen going on here today.

I advocate for the people.

The party screws the people, screw them.

I've never seen you give a shred of credit where credit is due. Never. It's just "betrayal, betrayal, betrayal" 24/7.

It's the same names over and over and over and over again contributing to the really poisonous environment here now. And 2) the fact that she thinks the rage, hate and idiocy that's been blanketing this board the last few days is a "good" thing and something to be "proud" of would send a cold shiver down my spine if I took this place seriously.

Even intelligent, legitimate criticism of this bill, of the Democrats' role in it and of the White House is being drowned out by an endless sea of screaming. It's embarrassing.

of any alternative to buying health care insurance from this bill? Where do you stand on Obama's looking forward rather than prosecuting torture? Where do you stand on Obama's request for more wiretapping without proper subpoenas? Where do you stand on charter schools? Where do you stand on Bernanke's appointment at the Fed? on Summers continued influence in the Obama administration? on Geithner's post at the Treasury? Where do you stand on our continued presence in Iraq? (especially in the light of the fact that our nation paid for our War in Iraq but it looks like the oil contracts are going to companies that will pay taxes not here in the U.S. but in nations that did not fight that War? Don't mean to condone stealing resources, but seems to me that there is something very idiotic about a country funding a war to steal resources and then not insisting on getting a share of the resources or at least the taxes earned on their use. That compounds immoral, illegal theft with incomprehensible stupidity.)

So, on precisely what issues do you think Obama has done the right thing? I'll tell you which ones -- the easy ones -- the ones that are completely uncontroversial. When it comes to standing up for what is right in spite of opposition from others, Obama is weak. He lacks the courage to do it.

Evil takes over when good men are weak. Obama still has a chance to find some strength -- about something that matters. He has three more years. But unless he gets himself together and finds some moral courage, he and us Democrats in general will be out for a long time.

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Support CorpAmerica. You are either for us or against us. you decide.

Interesting.

Why are you "puking" from her thread? Why are you making this personal? That's what I found to be of interest. Oh, you changed it to gag...ok.

When someone posts nothing but hyperbolic, vitriolic attacks against the Democratic Party, along with posts often filled with misinformation presented as fact, yes, it does make me gag that she's "proud" that DU is coming along so nicely.

Since the OP is so "proud" of the range of opinion here, well, this is my opinion. What's the problem.

Who gets their gorge in a knot over criticism of a political party? It's not like she attacked your family. It's like getting all bent out of shape because someone said critical things about the DMV. I didn't say there was a problem, I was just noting your reaction with interest. What "misinformation presented as fact" did this OP post?

As for the OP's misinformation, take your pick of any of her posts.

I find her posts, which in general attack the character and never really the specifics of policy, of the Democratic Party and of Barack Obama, offensive.

The OP is always advocating for DU'ers to abandon the Democratic Party and follow... who? Where?....

That's my question to which I still await an answer.

I will add one example of the OP's misinformation:

After Obama's Afghanistan speech, the OP wrote something to the effect that he hadn't/couldn't sum up the mission in a single paragraph, when, if the speech was actually watched, and the text read, the President clearly laid out the mission in a succinct paragraph -- agree with it or not -- but to rant and rave about how there is no clear mission is beyond disingenuous.

Another example:

When the second version of the Senate healhcare reform bill was introduced, the OP wailed about how people would have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars in fines if they couldn't afford to buy coverage and that essentially, we were all going to jail. Total hyperbole -- and the fact of the matter is that the version of the bill at the time called for a $95 penalty starting 4 years from now. I mean, c'mon.

I see her posts criticize the direction of the party, which seems to be going in a direction that is rather tone deaf. She answered your first question, she advocates for the people. Yet you accused her of evading your question and ignored her answer.

What do you mean, what's this to me? I'm posting my opinion. I thought you didn't have a problem with that. If you don't wish to engage, you can stop replying.

I wouldn't follow this poster to a free buffet lunch, let alone to whatever path she's setting herself up as the Pied Piper of.

Why don't you just ask for her password and write her posts for her? :shrug:

"She advocates for the people." That's not an answer. That's more of the same easy-peasy B.S. Again, are we on the set of Dr. Zhivago?

Who are these exalted ones (in her view) who do not "betray" "the people" that she wants us to abandon the Democratic Party for?

No. This poster simply has no credibility in my view, and I'm simply making it known she does not speak for me, and I'm not one of her DU fans willing to follow her in the "days and weeks and months ahead" to nowhere.

And who are the exalted ones? If you have some theory, why don't you just state it? You seem evasive and vitriolic to me. :shrug:

Frankly, I'm surprised that someone can say the p-word on DU and get deleted, but this OP and her followers can openly advocate for abandonment of the Democratic Party and it seems to be fine and dandy. Guess the times really are a'changing.

What the heck is malignant idealism? And what the heck is the "p-word"? I think you are just someone wasting my time. Do you have a theory or or you just pulling stuff out of your armpit? You started this whole thing off with your gorge rising. I was concerned for your health, but if this is some kind of circle jerk intellectual exercise for you, I'm sorry for caring.

And by "pile-on" I'm referencing the other poster who chimed in on this sub-thread.

Question remains to debbierlus:

Just who and what are you advocating for?

Because it's obviously not the Democratic Party.

So what political party are you advocating for?

That's bold.

Since quiet.american is a fan of the edit feature, here is the post I'm replying to:

I'm all good.

debbie: I'm advocating for the people

You: you are lying and advocating for a political party that I refuse to name

me: you are unclear

You: ?? Dr. Zhivago, strawmen, etc.

Anything I missed?

You sound like you are tired. Not really your best efforts today. Maybe you should take a nap.

Show me where I said the OP is lying.

The OP makes it clear with almost every post that in her view, Dems have "betrayed" her and that the Democratic Party should be abandoned.

So what is her alternative? What party is the bees knees for her?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7249404&mesg_id=7250279

That means you don't believe her.


The OP was a supporter of Edwards. Who last I checked was a member of the Democratic Party. Maybe you should use your star and search her posts. You have no credibility with me until you can answer the substance of these posts without some inane references to "Dr. Zhivago". If you are red-baiting you might as well be honest about it, but your aim is off.

A popular saying around here right now is, you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts.

If you post misinformation on actual policy as fact, yes, your credibility is damaged with me. It's not a matter of "believing" someone. They say one thing; I go look up the bill or the article or whatever the reference is to, and it says another thing entirely. That's goes to credibility.

I asked a question -- you chime in with "gorge" and pity and all manner of other things.

My straightforward question remains.

You started this off with complaints about your digestion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7249404&mesg_id=7249707

Where did I post about "pity"? Now you are definitely the one making stuff up. :hi: Your credibility is damaged forever. You are making things up about what I posted.

edit to add the C/P of quiet.american's accusations since she likes to edit stuff after the fact.

"I just can't imagine feeling as you do...."

Uh-huh.

That wasn't a statement of pity...it was me saying that you were expressing a feeling and that it seemed strange to be so emotional over a political party. And you still haven't explained a single thing about Dr. Zhivago. For someone "fact-based" that seems rather fanciful.

right along. What are you, some internet Lothario, employing faux chivalry to "save" the OP?

You certainly aren't very good at holding up the adult end of a conversation, that's for sure.

The OP has almost 200 recommendations. Somehow I don't think this OP needs saving. Some of the people commenting in it certainly do.

You jump straight to projecting bile and personalizing a sub thread that had nothing to do with you.

I read the whole exchange too. I read it exactly the opposite of you. Since the post has hundreds of recs -even with the unrec squad working overtime - it would appear that you need to find another thread to mess up.

If the truth hurts that much, you should just avoid looking at posts like this where honesty and logic are the ruling currency.

Just a direct question.

Mooooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!11







































( :rofl: )

you really should keep up with the whole discussion. Your desire for emotion and drama only make your posts silly.

Advice to those new to posting: It is better if your post actually addresses the issue to which you are replying. It is obvious you haven't read the posts when you fall into the smilie and funny spelling trap. I know reading is a drag for you, but it is worth the effort unless you don't mind looking ridiculous. Just a little help that I hope you can use.

There aren't very many people here who are or should be worried about how much undamaged credibility they have with *you.*

If you don't feel betrayed, fine.

I feel betrayed by both parties. They have worked together to dismantle the American democracy. One party works by being unabashedly fascist. The other party pretends to be inept. They work together to destroy our democracy. Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama. They all work for the same democracy hating oligarchy. I think Eisenhauer was the last president who could warn us about the takeover. They kill presidents who disagree with them, and/or manipulate events to prevent reelection of those who don't play along.

We need another party. One that has not been already purchased.
That party needs to push election reform through. FIRST!!!!!
Reform on every level, from gerrymandering to electoral college to hand counting.
Corporations do not belong at the table. Not at all. If they are there, we are betrayed.

One does not have to have a new party already invented on demand in order for the OPs opinion to stand. There may not ever be another party. The democracy here may be well and truly toast.

That doesn't mean that we haven't been betrayed by both parties.

and those that whore for corporations over all this country stood for.

"The OP is always advocating for DU'ers to abandon the Democratic Party and follow... who? Where?...." to progressives... third party candidates if need be... from what I've seen of debbierlus's posts. And I agree 327fucking%.

Is that answer enough for you (mine, I'll not presume to attribute that answer to debbierlus)?

And what's this about:
Ok taciturn... what's the "succinct paragraph"? ... (and here I'm granting you a width of benefit of the doubt which your tone certainly doesn't deserve, namely that your "something to the effect that..." is a reasonable paraphrasing. If debbierlus chimes in to say that you're paraphrasing is dishonest... then I'll treat you with the disrespect that you deserve in consequence)

And then there's this second assertion:


Ok.. I'm not sure where you're pulling your paraphrasings from... but the assertion that "the fact of the matter is that the version of the bill at the time called for a $95 penalty starting 4 years from now." is patently bullshit. I've been following this, as I'm going to have to pay these fines, because I'm not willing to buy mandated private insurance just because some goddamned corporatist sellout Democrats think they can foist that bullshit on me. The penalty has never been less than $700 a year. And the notion of the penalty starting 4 years from now is a disputed point that has never been clarified to anyone's satisfaction... which, quiet.american, leads me to think that you are full of shit and are trying to manufacture "facts" and "history" to suit your needs.

I think you, quiet.american are full of shit.

I vote in debbierlus' favor, and vote you to Thunderdome.

Now they are all yammering about credibility, which is much like Dean Martin holding forth on temperance.

the WH allowing Joe Lieberman to take charge of ensuring that the people don't even get the final few crumbs of lowering the age for Medicare while bashing Howard Dean who finally, like so many others, have had enough?

Do you remember how much has been compromised throughout this debate to the Private Insurance Industry? Giving Joe the power to make sure that the Private Industry gets EVERYTHING they wanted, was the last straw for even those who up to now, had bent over so far there simply was no way they could bend any further.

Single Payer ~ Compromised
Public Option ~ Compromised
Medicare extension ~ Compromised
Mandates, originally opposed by Obama, handing over windfall to the people who caused the problem to begin with while further punishing the poor, accepted.

Choosing to trash Dean but not Lieberman, made it clear where the WH stands and it is not with the people.

As a Democrat, I find them offensive.

and pulls out ad hominem, I pay attention.

ridiculously weak way of arguing and most see through this

And point out the out-of-context part of the excerpt you refer to.

this man slaughtered - BY HIS OWN, VERY CONSISTENT ACTIONS - AGAINST THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED HIM - and FOR CORPORATE INTERESTS - the banks, to the health care industry to the military industrial complex.

It's been horrible. Some saw it sooner...some later. But it's been consistent. Unless you STILL don't believe your lying eyes and ears.

:rofl:

Also a really good judge of character!

who picked Edwards as his running mate? Or President Obama, who coordinated with Edwards to go after Clinton and later sought his endorsement?

They must be terrible judges of character, if you're being consistent.

As for Obama, I saw that as good strategy that worked, and the obvious character flaws of Mr. Edwards didn't matter a damn for the purpose at hand, which was accomplished in any case. It would only be inconsistent if one posits that Obama didn't know Edwards was an outrageous phony, and there's no reason to posit that.

:-)

Would you be desperate for the endorsement of someone you knew to be an outrageous phony? To the point where you timed it to be your lynchpin endorsement?

Sorry, by your initial logic, either Obama must either be a poor judge of character or a complete sellout.

Not at all.

Political expe4dience is different from deep character judgment. I don't consider Obama "holy," so there's that. At the time, in the moment the endorsement was useful. But remember that it was the Obama team that had sunk Edwards on the haircut story in the first place, and Obama dissed him subsequently, so they knew damn well he was a fraud. But in the moment, it was useful. See? That's why you lost. You don't understand how these things work, and demand consiste4ncy when you should be demanding usefulness in the moment. Situations change.

Other than that, excellent post, as is typical with you.

Thank you!

K&R

Yeah there comes a time where how you want things to be, and the reality of the situation as it is, can no longer be the same thing. I WANTED Obama and the Dems to really do well and fix health care. The did NOT. In fact they did worse than "not", this bill sucks - and I'm proud of the people here at DU who have stood for what is right over party loyalty. THIS is why we will always be better than the Republicans and those who blindly followed Bush right off the cliff for 8 years that helped lead to the mess we are in today.

Those willing to stand up and fight are gaining stregth. If the tea baggers can gain as much stregth as they have I say we can do it too. All we have to do is become more public and vocal with our fight.

Proud of us too. We are better informed and more aware than they think we were. Good job DU.

There is no doubt left in my mind now, that if some type of crappy healthcare reform bill would have been passed, no matter how bad it would have been, that many of the Democrats would be praised for it, while the wars would continue for another year, or 2, or 3, or 4, just as long as the people making the posts here weren't affected by those wars.

If the economy improves in the next 4 months, which I believe it will, they would have cared even less for the people who have been ordered to serve in Afghanistan.
The news said yesterday that all of the 30,000 troops that Obama gave orders to go would be in Afghanistan by August.

There won't be much support for it by then.
The increase of the use of drones in Afghanistan along the border of Pakistan is an escalation in the Middle East that is not warranted.

And since some of the asshats in Clongress have to get reelected next year, they are going to find it very hard to raise the money necessary if they support the expansion of the Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan war.

to avoid such a backlash.

ME TOO!!

:rofl:



I love you, Debbierlus. :) Please, please, please RUN FOR OFFICE. I mean it 100%.

to core principles.

One cannot be a ship without a rudder.

"The betrayal of the dems ..."

"The ability and willingness to bear up to difficult truthes and place their principles over their political loyalties ..."

"The left is open to facing hard truthes and unpleasant realities."

"Watching the capitulation of democratic leaders we trusted ..."

"Maybe the country needed to see the betrayal of the great hope from the democratic party ..."

Uh, not for nuthin', but that's truths, not thruthes.

And bad spelling isn't the worst of your problems when it comes to differentiating between the truth and the thruthe.

But by all means, keep sellin' it, Debbierlus. Even on a site like DU, there's always a mark to be had.

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make baseless insinuations about the motives of others. So of course, you will be showing us all exactly how you 'know' the OP is 'bought and paid for'. By whom is she paid, Nance? I mean, you would never just pull a Tail Gunner Joe, would you?
Show us your 'proof' that your post is not pernicious and empty finger pointing, or 'baiting' as those who fought the blacklists called it.

writes like the uber shill of the century for the Democratic party. There ain't nuthing her precious Democrats could EVER do wrong or be responsible for. And it's been that way for YEARS. Anyway I got so tired of Nance Greggs and put her OP's on ignore and have never seen her reply before. Funny.

I smell the green eyed monster.

I have no proof that she's bought and paid for.

I just naturally assumed that no one would devote so much time and effort spewing this kind of BS without being lavishly recompensed.

looks like plenty of em lately Nance. The fact that this thread remains here makes me want to cry for DU.

As long as you keep posting though, I'll keep coming back. As crazy as this place makes me these days.

and Democrats in general. Whether we SHOULD be demoralized or disillusioned is certainly debatable, and everyone can decide that for themselves--but DUers should realize that some people here are ONLY interested in stirring up as much negativity and discontent as possible, while contributing nothing else to the discourse.

K&R

this person to trust her motives. We'll have to leave it at that.

lame.

:thumbsdown:

try to discuss issues instead of personalities.

:)

bullshit posts.

you say you are 'right' of Howard Dean.

You have the rethug corporate sell out talking point posts down.

Nurse my ass....

You contribute NOTHING to PROGRESSIVE AND LIBERAL discussion.

:puke:

Get over yourself.

:puke:

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... to an OP that is nothing but disdain.

I feel should be challenged and or altered is The Dem's part, not all Dem's are guilty but I hate to have to write this a hugh percentage is, , the bottom line is that the majority have given in to corporate interests, the whys and how's are the only questions left unanswered...

I love your threads and I can understand your fear and others on this board with the obvious trolls pushing others not to vote...

Anyone not voting is just plain ignorant, by not voting they in effect are (for the republicans like it or not) and by not voting they may one day regret it...but by pretending that corporate interests are not being taken into account , back room deals are being had and some on the left are being used as pawns in these negotiations and it is NOT right to ignore there rights as citizens in this country in fact it is downright undemocratic to ignore the rights of any americans to appease other americans.

I loved Clinton, still do, but I think his presidency should have been a learning tool for the next future democratic president and or leadership positions..stop giving in to those that in the long run do nothing for aiding the average american worker/citizen unless of course you too are in on the take,

Nafta must and should be repelled...it benefits far too few to be seen as anything other than helping to destroy middle america...

I for one will vote, I have no choice, and it will NEVER be for a republican, the way they so easily ignore the good of the people is beyond sickening, to them, stating they despise abortions and hate gates is the only thing they offer to their base, what I find truly pathetic is that there is a base who is satisfied with something so idiotic and pathetic, there are still Dem's who I believe care enough and are still in the fight, for them, any dem gets my vote when it comes to the presidency, the alternate is not to my liking nor should be to anyone who remotely cares about the future of this country, I would much rather stand behind people like Dean, who still consider themselves democratic, and because of him and those like him, I will continue to vote democratic..

There is a way to ensure 2012 does NOT go to those idiots republicans, but pretending the truth is not truth is not one of them. People are not as stupid as so many like to believe, something is wrong, something smells and if we are constantly told to ignore this rising stench, it is only bound to get unbearable for the average american citizen..we cannot afford to ignore it nor can we afford not to hold our Representatives feet to the fire...



Like this poster or not, this particular thread is as close to factual as one can get these days...I have no idea if she or he has fudged facts in the past or will again in the future, but this time, the only thing that I see that is not exactly factual is by accusing all of the Dem's of the same thing, such is just not true...

I think that's what it comes down to for many of us: Of course we're going to pull the lever for the (D) candidate. What the hell else can we do when the only alternative is absolutely repugnant?

But to be asked to smile about it and sing Party songs while we do it? :thumbsdown:

used to like to read Nance but the lock step corporate sell out bull shit has worn thin now.

When things start going south you start to see what people's true agenda is. For the past 8 years we were the attack dogs and now many of us have become the guard dog.

Even when it's all gussied up with phony Mollyisms?

:rofl:

I thought we'd all agreed on Pat Paulson.

That was powerful good!

But two days ago I realized I've had enough. I'm disgusted and hurt and still in shock that this is actually happening.

I'm already seeing on THIS MORNING'S MSNBC, they're talking about "what a difficult job" Obama was given! I agree it was a BIG mess, but he could have taken many different turns!

This HCR may have FINALLY awakened many here who have carried water, but I don't know if we will get any ACTION by how disappointed we feel!

Sounds like same ole, same ole to me! WISH IS WASN'T SO! We need to HIT BACK AT THEM, fill their Christmas Stocking with COAL!! We need to form a coalition like the TEA PARTY and MARCH... and yes I DO KNOW, too many don't think it works, but right now it may just do that!

Democrats calling our their own leaders will very probably make MSM think this as a "juicy" story and FINALLY COVER IT!

I don't know how to make it happen BEFORE they pass this piece of shit bill, but I do know Cindy Sheehan has a group together for March! Many won't be able to attend because of finances, I'm teetering, but "might" pull it off.
Link:
http:/pieceofthe action.org We need to keep this front and center... they aren't listening to our calls, petition, letters or any other of our PLEADINGS! We need to SHOW THEM!!

And poop on the serial poster who seems to want to make this a personal vendetta.

just throw us a bone..something...it hurts each and every one of us...50% unemployment in Detroit..a major friggin city in the US and we're escalating Afghanistan...and the bankers get record bonuses this year.....this and a lot of other ridiculous stuff is incomprehensible

And you're quite a fiddler.

after the current president has moved on.

DU is not the Barack Obama Fan Club - it can be that, if you wish, but it can be anything but that, and that is a sign of a healthy institution for Democratic Party members. :)

And, this is brutal truth served straight up. It is watching the capitulation of democratic leaders we trusted to fight for us, betray our deepest core beliefs for the PROFIT of corrupt and non-essential industry. It is watching our lives and financial futures being placed into the hands of the most unethical and terrible of thieves.

:nuke:

I am more and more disgusted with what is happening--"D"LC takeover, corporate takeover, media/consultant takeover, rich class takeover--exactly because I love (and remember) my real Democratic Party. I came from a union family where my parents loved and worshipped Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt and considered them saints, and explained to us kids, with simple language, why the New Deal saved people's lives and saved America, and why Republicans are full of shit. I remember the often-abused Lyndon Johnson, and a huge number of great domestic programs, for jobs, against poverty, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. These are the real Democrats, and great Americans to me--you can TELL, all around you, the improvements of ordinary life for real people, after they left. Then, Republicans come, and try to kill it all...

Up until Bill Clinton, and all those slick corporate fuckasses, with all of their behavior tailored toward their corporate contributors and corporate clients, tax-cutting, deregulating, killing programs, and I no longer know who this corporate class of servants-of-the-wealthy are. I am not leaving the Party I love and live for--they are! I would like to find and be able to implement a way to get these traitors out, get the commercial money and interests out, and return to our populist, by-votes-of-the-people, representative Government, legislating on behalf of solving societal problems of the people--a real society with its Government, again.

The thing that reminded me most of our real Democratic Party yesterday, (besides the great uprising on DU, etc., and in the country), was that incredible, fabulous speech on the floor of the Senate by Bernie Sanders withdrawing the single-payer Amendment--that was spine-tingling, and felt, at long last, like the Democratic message!

our principles outrank our principals !!




K&R

certainly you may use it! I'm flattered that you would. :):)

Another way:

Principles > principals

We're not lockstep cookie-cutter hero worshipers.

We revere concepts, ideas, and principles.

Way to find the peanut in the shit sandwich.
:patriot:

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Once they are re-elected DU will know how successful it has been. :sarcasm: I am sure they are glad they are getting support from somewhere, even if it from the liberals they hate.

for that, will be the current crop of DCLers who have hi-jacked the Democratic Party and told the base to STFU and go to hell.

So, if you're worried about a Republican take-over, you're talking to the wrong people. Start calling the WH and Congress and tell them that when that happens, they WILL be held responsible.

It doesn't have to happen. All they have to do is to start respecting and representing the people who elected them.

the left is open to facing hard truthes and unpleasant realities.

Right-wingers would never admit to errors...never admit to setbacks...never admit to fallibities...

They are blind to the mistakes of their own making and those of their leaders and, as such, will never seek betterment.

Proud of YOU!

Thanks for expressing such so well.

Sterling OP, debbierlus! :)

But for me..it is not "my party right or wrong"...but..what ever is best for ALL the people and what follows the Constitution.

I can't get behind Dems who behave like Repubs.

the denials and attacks from the smug centrists and realists. Its time for a new political party.

I want the opportunity to fight against the "centrists". Obama, The Centrist. Like Bush, The President (remember that idiotic window sticker?)

There is no more dangerous creature than the centrist. They cloak their unprincipled malevolence behind abstractions involving marketplaces and chess. Willing to continue the 10 year slaughter of a million innocents, producing rivers of blood carrying a million more dismembered and crippled. All for mere political expedience in the face of an aggressive military. Democrats want a ride on the victory pony in Afghanistan, a chance to grab for the golden ring - 20 somethings hopped up on video games, blowing apart an impoverished people for a chance at success. And democrats say, "fuck justice. There's big money to be made here."

Republicans are 100% transparent. You know you are getting shit up front. Its hard not to appreciate that sort of honesty. Even on Fox News if you watch closely you can see they don't even believe the shit they're saying.

But the "centrist/realist" democrat. Holy fuck - that is some powerful nasty bullshit.

On the other hand, I could easily be persuaded that no democrats have really been betrayed because most democrats are just like Obama; unprincipled and gifted capitulators willing to stop at nothing while sacrificing everything to keep controversy or other unpleasantness from encroaching within close proximity of their personal space.

LOL!- Obama the centrist is a CEO centerfold. Insurance company executives fantasize about chasing scantily clad Obama around their $23,000 exotic hardwood desk. All that talk - just playing hard to get. In the end the CEOs will have him at their pleasure.

The foundation for the next cluster fuck against common citizens (who are the holders of the worthless common stock our CEO style congress gives us) is being poured right now.

Democrats are complicit and democratic leadership should be punished.

"The only thing in the middle of the road is a double-yellow line or a dead armadillo"


maybe we should change armadillo for a donkey?

love those little guys - beautifully awkward and so busy snuffling and eating grubs and fire ants and general rooting around. If you stand still they will walk right over your foot, oblivious and completely focused on their task.

We need a new party. Lazy good for nothing Democrats have let the right wing do all the heavy lifting with the message that republicanism is the only way for America. Shiftless democratic leadership, too unprincipaled are simply following in the slip stream. Democrats don't need principals, they just coast along with the right wing. Just staying a tiny bit to the left so they can seem "centered".

They've thrown out a few wedge issues giving the illusion that there are two parties in this country.

Fuck them all, its time for serious opposition to the growing military style fascism with single party rule.

I have not seen anything as unprincipled as the democrats during Bush's term and now Obama's. It is unprecedented in history.

Pelosi and Reid have wasted a generation and turned democrats into pussies.

What a cowardly bunch of do-nothings. What a wasted generation.

I'll take a few effective pot smoking "hippies" over this button down brooks brothers fuck fest reinventing government as cash and carry.

Jesus we could use a few great leaders right now to stir things up. I'm tired of getting fucked by these sons of bitches called the "DLC" or "DNC" or "DCCC" or "DICKS"

All that racial imagery Obama used to get his lame ass elected. MLK is spinning in his grave.

bullshit, that they only offer us....always telling us to keep quiet, and don't worry let us take care of it and then fuck us over again & again & again...they sell us down the river in favor of corporate money over & over & over again...

they tell us, just know your place...Bullshit...

LIBERALS SCREAM LOUD AND HARD, MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD AND TELL THEM TO SHOVE UP THEIR MODERATE CORPORATE LOVING ASS...SPINELESS DEMOCRATS WHO FEAR & ALLOW THE REPUBLICANS TO BE THEIR MASTERS AND SET THE RULES AND AGENDA....

KISS MY ASS TO ALL WHO WANT TO PLAY NICE NICE WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION WHILE PEOPLE ARE HURTING & DYING WHILE THESE ASSHOLES ARE ONLY POSTURING FOR IMAGE AND RE-ELECTION WANTING MORE CORPORATE DOLLARS IN THE PROCESS WHILE SELLING THE PEOPLE DOWN THE RIVER...MOTHERFUCKERS!

Both Pelosi and Reid should have worked through the August recess, before the "tea-baggers" got a chance to distort the argument.

The best place to get a cross section of progressive public opinion. Sentiment has shiftly hugely against Obama and the Democratic party in the last week. I hope someone in Congress and the WH reads your post and others like it. A handful of naysayers are crapping on threads like yours but the recs speak for themselves.

We've placed such a hope on electing a leader that would set things right again and stand up to the corporations. What has become apparent is that it doesn't matter who we elect, the corporations are in control. While this is upsetting to finally fully face this fact, it is also liberating as well.

It comes down to this, the government isn't going to fix things for us, we need to do it ourselves.

Miss her.

:nopity:

a post pissed off about him even having one. This board is definitely and anti obama site now. They should just change the name and be done with it.

quite a bit longer than you, if you really want to play that game.

the corporate proxy government that is so embedded with wall street insiders and so controlled by the military, that we are slowly but surely turning the country it a fascist state.

Democrat or Republican, Black or White - I want to fight against the realist "centrist". Your gut should churning over how much influence Fortune 500 has over policy and how this is eroding the standard of living for the huge majority of citizens.

Obama has proven to be impotent at home but ready to open a can of whoop-ass on an impoverished and exploited people on other side of globe. We are responsible for about a million deaths and another hundred thousand or more on the way.

A ten year war. Beyond the war there is the whole issue of Wall Street.

To be honest, its difficult to write about the duplicity without wanting to vomit. I campaigned for the man on his earnest rhetoric promising change and offering hope. I was foolish and wrong.

And I was lied to. There are those who blame me for being stupid for voting for him and not recognizing the lies.

They claim to be know he was lying all along but voted for him anyway. That seems a far greater offense.

Everything in this man's policy agenda is consistent with the early neo-con, early Reagan republican. There is little policu that would identify Obama as a democrat he has run away terrified of anything remotely liberal (dumping trillions of tax money on wall street CEOs is not liberal).

CEO wealthfare is far outspending welfare for everyone else.

Green Tea and Scentopine, you addressed the OP issues...and didn't resort to loathsome personal attacks. I shall remember who did.

I supported and contributed to Obama EARLY. I believed he was different than Clinton and previous players who sold out America's jobs, thus expanding the criminal class. There are so many young and middle aged people who now despair of economic security. There used to be jobs in Detroit, New Orleans, and other cities.

I have wondered whether the diminishing economic climate of the last 15 years was planned in order that young people would be forced to join the armed forces in order to get educations and job training. After all, the draft was abolished and soldiers and sailors are needed.

You pretty much summed it up. Dylan Ratigan calls it "corporate communism", but I think fascism is apt, too.

I still believe that we can restore our democracy through the normal political process, though our chance is waning. I see so many people who have been pushed to the brink of reason. Formerly successful, well-educated, hard working people with big debts and little hope. There is a real sense that this country is coming apart at the seams and all of the people in charge are just trying to loot as much as possible before the big collapse.

Primary the bastard Reid.

You don't deserve the spite you are receiving for writing this fairly innocuous post. Strengthen your spine, because your critics will make it as personal as they can in an effort to wear you down. They have few options at this point, other than to be bullies. There is no way to defend the indefensible and they are too lazy to even try.

it is time to acknowledge we ( not just dems but all Americans) have been betrayed for a loong time. I think Obama is the icing on the cake...or is he possibly just the last straw?