You know what? I think Obama really IS playing chess here and he MIGHT just have done what is right

I was watching a video earlier today from Germany in which a German economist mentioned that Obama - in relation to health care reform - mentioned that the US could go bankrupt with the current system. Then it hit me. What if that was a freudian slip?

Folks - what IF - Just IF - this is EXACTLY what Obama wanted from the beginning? NOT BECAUSE HE IS TRYING TO SCREW US THOUGH!!! But because this supposed "economic recovery" is just a theme to placate the masses before the shit really hits the fan economically. What if he knows the banking system is fu**ed beyond any true hope of recovery and he knows we are looking at a 2nd great depression within the next 1-2 years?

Wouldn't this make perfect logic in that situation? Think about it.... this health care reform legislation - as it stands - SCREWS the masses over. There is no denying that. It also sends MASSIVE amounts of CASH in to the pockets of health insurance companies.

What if that was actually the goal? Of course he couldn't come right out and say that. Let's be real - the masses do NOT want to hear or accept the reality of that situation. Obama knows that. So he frames this as "oh man we tried to get it done this way, but we just couldn't."

This man MAY actually be a great leader. He MAY have done this so that we have at least SOME of the current health care system intact in a 2nd great depression. Think about it - if we are looking at another massive downturn what exactly is one of the MAIN things we want to still have at least somewhat working? Health care.

Granted this is all speculation, but IF WE ARE LOOKING AT ANOTHER MASSIVE DOWNTURN he may have just SAVED THE ENTIRE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

If that is indeed what he has done he did what was best for us. We will have to see.

Take a look at some of the news today that the MSM didn't even cover. Unemployment "unexpectedly" goes up. Credit card defaults continue to increase. Mortgage defaults have hit another record high. Citi all of a sudden couldn't "pay back" TARP and actually needs MORE money. There is NO RECOVERY HERE FOLKS. I think Obama recognizes that most people don't want to hear that, but he is making moves necessary behind the scenes so we can at least survive it when it hits.

I would prefer for it to fail in Congress. Then, I think, Obama has great ammunition to hammer the Republicans with in the 2010 elections. He can show them up for being the obstructionists they are.

If he vetoes the bill that this Congress will probably send to his desk, I will concede that your theory has merit.

:dem:

-Laelth

what he is expecting in this bill. I don't think he has done this in such a manner that it really could be considered a line in the sand. He needs to be explicit - I will veto this bill if it doesn't have this element or it has this bad element in it. He hasn't done that.

I almost think that it is too late for him now to actually draw a line in the sand. He let it go too far and let the Congress have their way with it. He needed to draw his line in the sand closer to the beginning of this process - no later than the middle. Now it is my opinion - it is too late for him to do that.

For him to veto the bill now - without ever being explicit as to what he expected in it - would just make him look silly and weak.

If this bill contains no public option, he has grounds to veto it. But will he? That is the question.

:dem:

-Laelth

Please, think of the electrons.

hear this because they think that they know what is being said in every meeting and they don't even think about what Obama really saw when he first started uncovering the Bullshit that Bush/Cheney left...

None of this could be the truth in their eyes because a lot of them would rather believe the rightwing bullshit they have been eating for years.

Now, I buy the "another massive downturn" thing. I've been assuming that would happen. I think the one thing NOBODY is talking about is the bankruptcy of those who hold the mtgs on all those empty, or almost empty office buildings, shopping malls, and appartment buildings. THAT'S really BIG MONEY! none of them that I know of are actually owned outright and they all depend on the renters to pay the mtg.

If that's right, I don't see that helping Obama in any way!

Personally, my money is on delusional.

and is trying to do the best job he can for the American people.

He is certainly constrained in what he can accomplish on health care by economic factors.

however my feet are as usual, planted in reality and I hope like hell I am wrong and you're right.

The same reason they talked about financial collapse before they handed the Treasury to Wall Street.

It was to scare you into acquiescing.

seek help

Sorry, I don't share your optimism. Reminds me of "John Kerry's got your back" shit of 2004... and look how that turned out.

what's wrong with them, but he won't do it because he too is too much into the pocket of the banksters as a look at his administration staff shows. I would love to believe what you say, but the evidence shows a different scenario. I do agree with Thom Hartmann though that he might be being blackmailed by the same crowd and has to be careful how he maneuvers himself free from their tentacles.

and that at this point many people are in denial and grasping at straws in order to keep their faith.

I home I'm I wrong.

Everything will come down.

As far as I can tell the President and most Congressional Democrats simply caved, whether to industry interests or to the bipartisan/surrender thing. Either way, leaves us out in the cold...again.

BIG difference there. Ask doctors if more profits for health insurance companies mean that their care for patients will improve. Ask nurses if it will mean more nurses on duty to provide better care for patients.

The only way I can have any hope that Obama is playing chess to try to get us to a better health care system is that with how much money this bill will allow the health insurance industry to pull out of actual health care, how pissed Americans will be at the mandate to force them to purchase insurance, and how much insurance rates will increase since there are no controls over costs, this will break the health care system completely and we will have to build a new system. Since Obama said that if we were starting from scratch, single payer would be the way to go, maybe he thinks breaking the system is the only way to actually get single payer.

Obama is really trying to get all Americans killed because he knows we will go to heaven and have such a wonderful time in the afterlife! He knows we will thank him when we are all in heaven!

Actually, this sounds more like a Republican plan. Bring about the rapture and we all go to heaven. Hellelujah and stuff.

They're simply trying to take our temperature. Doesn't feel like a thermometer, but hey.

while I don't know the timeframe, I do know that all we are doing right now is trying to make this a controlled crash landing instead of a catastophic nose down drilling a hole in the ground kind of crash of our economic airplane. I think that only with the passage of a few decades will we be able to put this into enough perspective that we'll understand what did help/what didn't help. I believe that with that perspective, I will have a greater appreciation of things that Obama has done that I currently find distasteful, but that without which we would be living more basic lives now or even lives of complete desperation for the majority of people in this country. Kind of an oxen cart existence even.

Besides, it will be at least a decade + before we near anything that approaches a real recovery, and it probably won't resemble the economic comfort and excess that we've grown used to in the last decade. I am 51 and I don't believe in the end that I will see any prosperity that even comes close to what I saw, esp. in the last 5-10 years.

While I understand the massive downturn of which you speak is now pretty much inevitable, I hadn't made any connection between that and this health care reform deal. I'm gonna churn that possibility over in my mind, because I can't quite make an argument for it, but the idea is new territory for me and the one thing I do know is that the guy I hired for the prez job during what I knew what going to be a massively bad time is practical and does plan out his moves very far in advance. So who knows on this, but it will make me ponder things further.

Wouldn't that just be super neato!


Sheesh.

Personally, I don't want a president who always puts the interests of corporations and banks ahead of the people who voted for him, no matter WHAT his reasons are.

No reasons could possibly be good enough.

1.- You are invested in a second great depression.

2.- The system as it exists RIGHT NOW is collapsing.

This portion of your post was interesting;

But because this supposed "economic recovery" is just a theme to placate the masses before the shit really hits the fan economically. What if he knows the banking system is fu**ed beyond any true hope of recovery and he knows we are looking at a 2nd great depression within the next 1-2 years?


Recently, the more I read, watch, talk to people - in general just observe the state of the USA (from a distance), the world and my own country, I see many folk patting themselves on the back and wiping sweat from their brow as though a complete economic and social disaster has just been averted. I don't think this is correct: it's a false sense of escape from the brink and the worst is yet to come. And yep, I agree with your timeline of 1 - 2 years. I hope I'm wrong.