Do you think Obama has any clue how much this bill really cost him?

Do you think he has any idea that not only is the honeymoon over, the base is asking for a divorce?

Or do you think we have another President living in a bubble?

who is probably telling him not to worry about the base because they think we'll have no where else to go in 2010 and 2012 and will still show up. If he had a clue, he wouldn't have let Howard Dean be attacked.

You'd think they would have learned something from '94.

I ain't buying it. Obama, his administration, and conservadems beholden to the insurance industry are the problem.

to fat cats and corporations.

President gave up all power to do what is right, and now only has left the power to obey Rahm.

It is right there in the Constitution...

like Bush? Not

by failing to get health care passed. That was true but it does not follow that passing a bad bill would have had a different effect. And, of course, Rahm believes the base is a myth. He thinks all that counts is securing the big corporate donors for the Democrats and keeping the money from the Republicans. I guess in the days of ESS it's possible to win without people turning out to vote but I wouldn't count on it if I were him.

corporatists in the cabinet and replace them with people the rest of us trust.

aggravating "they have nowhere else to go" abused spouse type crap or maybe he just really, really thinks he can pull things off and turn the country around enough to get more votes, I dunno. But he has said several times that he doesn't care if he's a one term president, hasn't he? Maybe he's already decided it will end that way no matter what and is governing from that frame of mind? Again, I dunno.

minus a few true progressives, is in for a nasty wake up call in the near future.

He didn't become the first black president by accident. He is one of the most calculating politicians out there.

I think those of us on the left are the ones who had the rude awakening.
And will continue to.

ever. :hi:

Once we got down to the last two, it was a dog and pony show. And frankly with the knowledge we have now, Edwards was a dog and pony show too. Kucinich was the only real candidate--and one with no chance. Let's face it: any politician who truly wanted to do something wouldn't be permitted to win. They'd either tamper with the machines or wage a smear campaign. And even if the smear campaign didn't work; they'd say it did and tamper with the machines.

It's a plutocracy; an oligarchy.

the price he and the Party are going to pay for it, though.

he doing the job he was hired to do.

did you think the coup would go away when bush left office?

corporatist dems are part of the coup too.

he is business as usual, all dressed up in a new costume. methinks there will be much wailing an gnashing of teeth in 2010. and depending on circumstances, 2012 could be a bloodbath.

:shrug:

he is business as usual, all dressed up in a new costume. methinks there will be much wailing an gnashing of teeth in 2010. and depending on circumstances, 2012 could be a bloodbath.

:shrug:

First let's see what the final bill that will be signed is. Then minus the left support. Then minus the loss of House and Senate seats.

With the capital left over now we can look at what the last two years of the Obama administration will look like. Economy/Jobs. Ending the wars. Bush Cheney prosecutions? Can I have my pony now? :smoke:

I've been raking my brain about this and that's all I can come up with. They don't care.

I mean, did they think we'd just lay down and take it? Do they really think we'd eat this shit sandwich and come back in a year or two or three. They had to know.

I don't think they care.

they think that playing to the middle will keep them safe because the 'right' is screaming about socialized medicine, ha...try taking away their 'socialized medicare' or 'social security'...even the right wing dinosaur hunters would run screaming from it....

IMHO, what they bought themselves is the delusion that people don't want a universal system in order to keep the cash flowing in from the insurance industry to their campaigns.

Just wait until this thing kicks in, and see the reaction it gets from people who are told they have to (mandated) buy private insurance with no options (hello Alabama)

I say, why not go all the way and privatize social security, then we can be truly free of that socialism thing that we hate so.

C'mon Obama, free us from social security while your at it.

mentioned it. Bush was supposed to get that done, but he failed. Now we know why they needed that money so badly. Had he succeeded, it would gone, with the rest of the people's money they gambled away. Bush got most his assignments done, two wars, not bad. And the torture business was booming and may still be for all we know. Bailouts too, lots of money for the MIC. All in all, what we saw as a failed presidency, was extremely successful considering who he was really working for. He will be rewarded and protected for his service. No wonder Obama wants us 'to move on'.

But Bush did fail to sell the privatization of SS. Now we have a new Executive, a new face that up to now, might have been able to succeed where Bush failed. If it hadn't been for this Health Care catastrophe (from our pov, not theirs) he might have been able to pull it off. I think they were counting on a new face, a smooth talker, a great salesman like Obama being able to do it. Hopefully the people are now fully awake and he too will fail. Still, so far, he's doing great. One war escalating and the other still going with lots of private contracts still being paid out. Business is still booming.

And his magnum opus is probably this Health Care bill so far. Look at the stock market this week, the Health Care stocks!

We better be ready as I am sure he intends to start talking soon about 'fixing' SS.

Becoming a personality cult-hater must suck big time!

Why? And what's wrong with hating them?

I think personality cults are extremely dangerous, personally. When in history have they ever resulted in a positive outcome? Worshiping a person above reason, logic, ideals and ideas is a fool's errand.

and yes, they are dangerous....extremely so.
Hating a person above reason, logic, ideals and ideas is a fool's errand.
You are right there.

back in grade school.

while others thought themselves as really smart and unique,
Me, I was always judged by others as being "different".

Might have been my skin color, my accent, my hair....
But it is the Story of my life.

So I feel right at home.
Thanks!

Pointing out the obvious.

on the internet :rofl: but some people always delight in playing the victim. x(

:shrug:

Geeeze .... do you have no limits?

No one would know your race unless you told them

Which you just did.

That matters ...... how?

And why the need to raise that issue at all in this particular discussion?

Talk about pink tutus instead.

Why?

It's a win, not a loss. A loss would have spelled much more trouble for Obama.

Democrats will be emboldened to move on to other legislative victories, and the GOP's position will be dampened.

Obama will naturally promise building on this legislation to win re-election.

If we look at politics as a game and ongoing process for gradual change, Obama is clearly going to come out on top. And what is politics really, but a game and ongoing process for gradual change?

(I meant this as a response to the OP)

If anyone knows gibberish about nothing, it would be you.

How's the creative writing classes going?

With her usual load of . . . nothing.

:spray:

You're a member of the pink tutu picture stealers cult.

Like Bubble Boy Bush was.

His base is still happy. The unhappy groups making noise right now aren't the base, they're just the screamers.

Most are still quite happy.

Noise is not the same as numbers... volume has a poor correlation to porta-potties.

I mean, what Democrat needs Union support?

Unions are part of the base, but unions are only 12.4% of the US population, and they aren't representative of the whole of the democratic base (some unions are quite right-wing, actually). If you don't count government employees, private sector unions are 7.6% of the population.

ratings under 50%, down about 15 points from his high.

it's not conservatives he's losing--they didn't like him to begin with.

Here's where I go to look at numbers:
http://pollingreport.com/obama_fav.htm
http://pollingreport.com/obama_job.htm
http://pollingreport.com/health.htm

Of course, partisans will use all kinds of numbers to make their points, which is why I like seeing lots of polls in one place, to see what's actually going on in the numbers.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124610/Brief-Uptick-Obama-Approval-Slips.aspx


December 7, 2009

After Brief Uptick, Obama Approval Slips to 47%
New low follows slight increase after announcement of Afghanistan policyby Jeffrey M. Jones

PRINCETON, NJ -- Barack Obama's presidential job approval rating is 47% in the latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking update, a new low for his administration to date. His approval rating has been below 50% for much of the time since mid-November, but briefly rose to 52% last week after he announced his new Afghanistan policy.



& "daily kos"-type polls have no statistical reliability.

Hence, I try to look at many of them.

selection bias, sampling bias.

And it just keeps getting worse the more people learn about the bill. The trend is not your friend.

the ones you use to "prove" your point, too funny. :rofl:

After hitting a low of 47 percent in the poll you cite, the daily tracking poll has shown Obama's approval rating fluctuating between 49 and 51 percent.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Job-Approval.aspx

Indeed.

Anytime there are only one, or two, sources on a topic, I look for forms of source aggregation to get a bigger picture.

some stupid internet poll where the respondents self-select, & in some cases can even vote multiple times = bullshit.

Cell phone polls: high tech sampling.

Mail polls: anti-tech sampling.

I look at "bad sources" because there are no good ones.

like "daily kos" listed on the link.

It's not entirely results from specific website polls.

support Dems because of abortion issue . . .

but obviously they will be betrayed as well shortly!!!

then why, come election time, are we sternly reminded, by candidates & people like you, that if we (the screamers) don't get out & vote, the losses with be our fault?

We cannot be both irrelevant & important.

:banghead:

That's why there's reaching out to the far right, far left, libertarians and authoritarians, religious and labor groups, etc. As long as *all* the margin groups aren't alienated, the two bases only need a few external groups.

This is part of why the US government sucks, and why other governments looked at us, and then created parliaments instead.

Have you been reading this board for the past several weeks? The far left feels betrayed by the democrats. Trust me, no one is reaching out to us!

I see it quite differently. Both sides desperately need their base.

The conservatives are not reaching out to other groups, I suspect because their brand is so badly tarnished, they know they don't appeal to other, more reasonable groups. Because of that, they can't throw their bat shit crazies under the bus, because without that group, they will lose.

The dems, on the other hand, know that when liberals are inspired to go to the polls, they win. When liberals stay home, they lose. As the dems continue to turn their backs on their liberal base, they are going to have to reach out to other groups to make up for the loss of votes. We see that happening now, with the continuation of republican policies. I think there are many in our party who hope to appeal to the more reasonable conservatives in an effort to sway them to join our party. Then, when they have the numbers, they will ditch the far left.

But for now, the dems disregard the left's discontent, at their peril. I believe the dems are in for a nasty surprise come 2010 & 2012. And when that happens, mark my words, the outcry will be that it is the fault of the far left liberals because they didn't go to the polls.

I do agree that the winner-takes-all approach of the US government sucks. I would love to see that change, but I question how we change the status quo, when those in power to do so directly benefit from the status quo.

:hi:

They all know we vote based first on party and then on principal.

Plenty of good local Dems to vote for without washing my hands with D.C. blood anymore.

Particularly those mandates in the bill. I can't believe they'd be so stupid.

from now on forward.

We need to get some new people in the primaries, run against these corporatist dick suckers. I'm sick of this shit. You work like a dog getting these fucks elected and then they screw you.

As much as it would have been great for this to have been passed in a radically different format...

This is how the game is played. This is just round one.

This process clearly shows how the real battle is not Rebulican v. Democrat, it is corporations v. humans.

It is not our political process that is the problem, it is our economic and class issues that infect the political process. Democracy works.

at the END of the process, not at the beginning. And I have news for you, there is only ONE round. May I remind you that the Patriot Act was also supposed to be "fixed." Not only did President Change continue it, he continues to fund it and EXPANDED it. Things that were going to be "fixed."

DOMA - In tact
DODT - In tact
War in Afghanistan - Expanded
War in Iraq - In tact
War on Drugs - In tact
Patriot Act - Expanded
TARP - In tact

I could go on for days but I think I've made my point.

doesn't anticipate working twice as hard for twice as long accomplishing twice as much...

for half the credit?

President Obama has accomplished more than any other president, ever, since fdr. he has done no more amiss than ANY other who *could* have been elected would have done, including kucinich. if he was any closer to doing what the so-called progressives here demand in trade for loyalty he would be dead...

and so on....


the failure is ours. we pretend we want a participatory democracy, then we whine when daddy politician or daddy party doesn't do what we demand. WE are that party, don't you get it? who is willing to do that hard work it takes to make it progressive? not so many couch politicians are.

how many here have taken on their responsibility to participatory democracy?

how many of the supposed - what? - 80% that allegedly want single-payer contacted their reps and sens? do you think this would be happening if even ten million had? and 80% would have been, how many?


g'night.

Seriously, I want to know the strain. Hope Dope? Yes We Cannabis?

take responsibility.

bye.

I worked my ass off. Show me your precinct captain button and I'll show you mine.

Iowa, Nevada and California with heavy phone banking to New Hampshire. In 2006 I worked for Bill Durston, Ca3 and Charlie Brown Ca4, I mean, I worked my ass off you simple headed person.

I can take you back to Gary Hart, or maybe Howard Dean in 04. How about Seattle in November of '99. Couch politician my ass. I've done the work and I'd be happy to bet you it's more than you've done.

Tell me, would you like to compare notes?

I do apologize for calling you simple headed. Your obviously not simple because you can read and write and have at least limited computer skills.

Again, I'm sorry for the name calling. I don't mind at all if you call me any name you'd like. You can even call me a couch politician again if you'd like and I won't complain.

so why take it on yourself, then defend against it?

now, if only the tiniest percentage of Dem's also weren't. if only the tiniest percentage of those now holding their vote hostage to their demands being met....

why defend them?

I'm so excited I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight.

:spray:

:rofl:

Shame on you for expecting your elected officials to actually listen to you. Shame on you for not quitting your job and marching in front of your reps office all day long. Shame on you for not being able to donate enough money to make your rep listen because as most of us have learned, communicating with your reps just gives them the chance to tell you to fuck off to your face.

this place would eat 'im alive.


bye.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct!

Peeps here post about the French Revolution and how that all got started/happened....the 2nd American Revolution hasn't even barely been conceptualized yet.

yes, "the 2nd American Revolution hasn't even barely been conceptualized yet."


and it takes devotion and hard, hard, courageous work, not dictating, and not griping.

... and the Democratic party at large.

Time after time, we've reached a consensus here that later became popular consensus.

However, the general public usually catches up to the information junkies. See--Iraq war.

Meme: Don't pay attention, or read a lot, or think. Then you are an "elitist," even if you are living on disability.

neither will his children or their children.

he's in the club now.

bought and paid for.

Like the Bush family, the Clinton's and others who have served their masters faithfully, Obama is in the big club now. Winning a second mandate is irrelevant, when the time comes he will pass the baton to the next republican president and retire in luxury, I'm sure he will be rewarded for the great job he has done.

The bat shit crazy left on this site are a very small part of the real world

and you are a fool if you think the anger is limited to the left.

but the.. let's see if I can find a similarly worthy insult... okay, if the corporate asshole wingers of the democratic party are willing to give away America's health care to the insurance cos, they'll see how much people support this.

People will find out that they are required to buy health insurance or pay a fine and if they can't pay a fine they'll go to jail.


I can already see the poll numbers skyrocketing to the roof as people come out to support that proposal. Because Americans have always liked the government telling them how they are to spend their own paychecks....


They are playing right into Repug hands.

First, there were heavy political risks to just dropping the effort in the middle, too.

Second, this bill is worth losing elections over.

to back them to get re-elected. I have to wonder if that's all they think about - that next election.
How refreshing it would be to have a pol that is willing to do what needs to be done INSPITE of that next election.

Do you think we have any clear idea how this will play out in actual, day to day, terms?

Or do you think we have another complex issue framed in sound bites by TV talking heads?

CBO.

Believe me when I say there is nothing I want more than to be wrong on everything I have been feeling over the last couple of days.

There's still amendment votes and the joint conference (House / Senate) to get through, and a final vote on a consolidated bill.

I've thought of searching for reports of the original Social Security legislation process, thinking it was at least as convoluted and controversial as this, yet haven't taken the time.

in 2013, when the mandates hit. Before that, they may hear what's in the bill, or the final product, but they won't really grasp it until they have to start paying for it. Of course by that time, Obama will be in his second term and cannot suffer the wrath, to the extent there is any. And that's how it is being planned. As someone noted above, Obama is a calculator.

As my Irish gramma would say "Saints preserve us". Jeezus.

Isn't that what boards like DU are all about? Discussions, sharing news, ideas, and lively debate.

He thinks the left won't choose someone over him in 2012, but he doesn't realize that he will likely lose his super majorities in 2010, and the reason will be the voters who backed him in 2008, but who stay home on election day 2010. Every election is about getting out our voters, and they don't come out when they're mad about being lied to by the party leaders.

-I think he had no idea HCR would be this hard and if he did, he wouldn't have even addressed it this soon (if at all). He initially thought both houses of Congress would finish a bill, finish reconciling it, and put it on his desk by last August!

-I don't think Obama worries much about popularity this far from elections. He knows that the Republicans will be so far to the right that opposing them will energize our base enough to get him re-elected at least. He also knows that he can get a 6 to 9 point bounce overnight just by giving one of his brilliant speeches.

If the dems think I'm going to continue to buy their lesser-of-two-evils bullshit like I have in the past, they are wrong. You can only take advantage of people for so long before they come to their senses & say "fuck you." I'm having my "fuck you" moment right now, as I ponder, what's the difference between going off a cliff at 100 mph or walking up to it & stepping off? The descent is still the same.

Further entrenching the for profit insurance companies in our already failed health care system was a mistake of epic proportions. This is going to come back & bite the People on the ass. I don't give a fuck what it does to the dems.

I was never a big fan of Obama's, but I have to admit, that he has pandered to the status quo even more than I thought he would. Disappointed? A little. Surprised? Not really. Our political system is seriously corrupted & compromised. Although there are several things we could do to fix it, those things require the action of the very people who benefit from the current system. I am completely demoralized right now.

Ignorance is bliss. I could use a little bliss right now.

You always seem to put my thoughts into words. I don't seem to be able to express my frustration as well as you have done here.

Your analogy of the cliff is right on target.

;)

:hi:

taking up healthcare - that once people are back at work they will be more agreeable on healthcare reform?

He really should've listened to Joe - now people are pissed because they can;t find a job and HRC
was a handout to the insurance companies.

I think Joe was selected more to appeal to the white male voter than for his experience & advice. Remember that article a while back, that stated that Joe had been somewhat marginalized by Obama's staff? I wonder if Joe's still glad he accepted the position?

People who are not worrying about putting food on the table are more likely to be willing to spend a little on other things.

Obama doesn't seem to grasp that the economy has been and continues to be a huge problem for a large section of voters. Nearly everyone knows at least one person who has been laid off, can't find another job and is really struggling. Obama's stimulus bill put too much stimulus too far off in the future when people needed help yesterday.

But really, he's never been anything more (or less) than a symptom of something larger.

I'm at the point I really don't care who is in office, it's all the same. Obama is making a mistake to think that a large amount of us are coming to this conclusion.

This is the archetypal one-trick pony: be on both sides of every issue that you can't avoid. Divine the least objectionable course in any situation. Water down reform and call it progress while cheerily reminding reactionaries that it's all quite civilized and not a big change. Escalate a war less than those who are trying to prosecute it want, and sell it as some kind of elaborate pre-emptive peace move, while not providing the necessary resources to even do that. Rein in flagrant monopolistic fraud in our financial system by giving the perpetrators literal control of the system and calling it regulation. Chart an acceptable course on the climate, even when any "acceptable" course is an acceptance of biological peril.

Always the middle; always play to the middle.

There's a problem: this is a tactic for attaining power, not for using it. If you watch and listen to him, he's still running a campaign, not leading. Now he has to be called to account, and if the position he wants to take is satisfying diametrically opposed power-blocs, it's not going to work.

Those who were agog with hero-worshiping glee will froth with betrayal and self-pity. Those who've been dismissive of this are not surprised. You hear the latter group speaking out here, and there have been many for a goodly long time, stifled as they were.

Ego. The thrashing self-righteousness of the extreme acolytes is embarrassing and infuriating.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

second term or cushy job - it's all good

...and we'll all come bleating back into the fold.

We'll see if they're right. I only know that I'LL never vote for a DINO again. Ever. No matter what.

Obama feels about the base the same way Rahm does.

can pull that off all this health stuff will be forgotten as it doesn't kick in until 2014 anyway.

... but he will at the midterms.

about the price he's going to pay by taking the liberal base for granted.

I think he understands that despite the screaming ninnies, there are millions who will be helped by these bills. IO think he understands that despite these bills not being the nirvana everyone wishes for that they are a very solid step forward to improving the over all health care situation of a majority of americans.

I think he understands well that short term pain at the polls in the end will pay off in long term gain for the american people and I think he is smart enough to be more than willing to take that short term hit.

It remains to be seen if his financial backers for Term I will stick with him for Term II.

Feingold and Boxer and other liberals are voting for the bill. Even the liberals are still supportive. The Democrats still approve at 82%.

DU is not the country.

I know that must shock you.

Surrounded by yes-men and operatives like Rahm, who lie to him.

of the population of the US?

People who post here are political geeks (that's not an insult, btw).

I would say the majority of people in the US are NOT political geeks.

If anyone is living in a bubble, I think it might be the DU community.

they find out that they will be required to by "coverage" from the for-profit crook. They'll be even unhappier when all they can afford is a high out of pocket policty that still keeps them from seeing a doctor.

see what the final bill looks like before deciding how the rest of the country will react to it.

I do love all of you freaking out though....the so called "base" who think they know how to run the country better than Obama, and threaten him every time he doesn't do whatever makes YOU happy.

The more Obama makes the Repubes mad and makes all of you crazy "base" freakouts mad, the more I know he's the right person for the job and is doing the right thing.

His family, the people around him, will all come out on top. I don't think he gives a flying fuck about the unwashed masses. Until he needs our votes, then its time to turn on the charm and spread the yes we can bullshit.

And, once again, the base of the Democratic party is self-defining. You think you are the base. But there are lots of other groups within the tent of the Democratic party that consider themselves the base too. Not all of them are as disillusioned as you are and most of what the party leaders view as the base are people who, even if it means holding their nose, are going to vote for the Democratic nominee in an election over a repub. They don't regard the "base" as the folks that threaten to bolt or stay home whenever compromises are made, even shitty compromises.

After all, even if he's a one term wonder, he still gets paid $400,000 for the rest of his life, along with the other perks we give ex presidents. Not to mention that he can make more millions by hitting the lecture circuit and such.

:shrug:

most of the US public wasnt.
now, they are.
DU is often ahead of the game because they research the facts.
Give people time, they will wake up, a lot of them.
Im in a small town of 5000, most of the dems here are not happy.

GD:Presidential forum. I don't know why more people don't put Obama threads there. Good place for them! ha

Otoh, Obama obviously signed on for a corporate agenda . . . tho hidden.

And that's exactly what the DLC is and what it does . . .

co-opts the party like a poisonous cancer --