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Challenge to the health insurance bill supporters. (WARNING: No politics thread)

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:31 PM
Original message
Challenge to the health insurance bill supporters. (WARNING: No politics thread)
Those of you out in force today supporting the health insurance bill (or more properly "bills" that will be reconciled) are making lots of political arguments and are smearing anyone who doesn't agree with you. So here is my challenge to you:


What is good for the AVERAGE American about this bill?

Now, I don't care if the bill is good for the party, or bad for Grover Nordquist, or if it makes Oprah have orgasms in her sleep. I don't give one god damn about who says what about it, and that even includes Paul Krugman. If God himself was interviewed on TMZ saying he likes this bill, I don't give a shit.

Tell me how this bill, which forces all Americans to buy health insurance, will benefit Americans? Don't give me rainbows and high ideals or pot-induced hallucinations. Just the nuts and bolts.

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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. k and r-- listening to the "sounds of silence"
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
277. Look at the time the tread was started, then look at the time you made this reply. nt
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #277
285. wow-- a really informative reply there. I can read--what is your point?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #285
287. You complained about no one responding to the thread 2 minutes
after the thread was posted. You did not give your community enough time to even see the thread, let alone respond to it.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #287
334. since you came late to the party, you are excused. I wasn't complaining, so please do not put words
in my mouth. I was observing that the water-carriers would, being asked to give accurate information, would have nothing of value to say. and this thread has proven me correct.

but thank you for keeping it kicked.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #285
311. Oh well.
:rofl:
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virgogal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've been wondering the same thing and will be looking forward to
the replies.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. *** crickets ***
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
276. Look at the time the tread was started, then look at the time you made this reply. nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #276
304. Two minutes is a long time in internet minutes. :)
Usually 5 or 6 people will have jumped on board to say something by then.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #276
305. Now, watch how fast an empty thread can fill up.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #305
307. Well, actually it didn't work.
Maybe it was too vague. I should attack something.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #305
357. 3 minutes for the first reply is not bad. 38 minutes for the second, non you, reply, ehh.
This one is psycho..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7333732&mesg_id=7333732

The OP is fairly long, but has a reply 1 minute after the OP was posted and a second reply 2 minutes after the OP was posted.

The other OPs I looked had the first reply 4 to 30 minutes after the OP was posted. If someone posts an OP, I think one should wait at least a half hour before being concerned if people are going to reply or not.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. doesn't look as if it will much


•The excise tax, (which is not in the House bill) which the CBO itself says will affect 19% of people with employer-provided insurance in 2016. In 2019, six years after this bill takes effect, the excise tax will affect one in five taxpayers making $50-$75,000 per year, and the average tax impact on this bracket will rise to $1,100 a year in 2019.

In addition, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS, another CBO-like organization) predicts that the excise tax will actually make coverage worse for very little return in savings.

In reaction to the tax, many employers would reduce the scope of their health benefits. The resulting reductions in covered services and/or increases in employee cost-sharing requirements would induce workers to use fewer services.

Because plan benefit values would generally increase faster than the threshold amounts for defining high-cost plans (which are indexed by the CPI plus 1 percent), over time additional plans would become subject to the excise tax, prompting those employers to scale back coverage.

The savings?

This excise tax, which would reduce the quality of millions of Americans’ health insurance coverage, will technically "bend the cost curve" by just barely 0.3% in 2019. All that for a measly 0.3% reduction in national health expenditures.

To give you a comparison, CBO projects that Dorgan’s drug re-importation would reduce spending on prescription drugs roughly $100 billion over the next decade (I think the savings could easily end up 4-5 times that amount). A $10 billion reduction in prescription drug spending compared to the total NHE spending last year, which was roughly $2.4 trillion in 2008, would be a 0.4% reduction in NHE.

•The mandate remains, with a larger fine for those who don't purchase coverage attached. Perhaps that's in response to the calculations done showing that it would be cheaper for people to pay the fine than to maintain coverage under the junk insurance plans that are still going to be allowed in the newly "reformed" system. The exemption for those who can prove they can't afford coverage is maintained.

•There is no public option of any kind in the Senate bill, no opt-out, no Medicare buy-in. Just the two national private plans, one of which would be non-profit, that would be overseen by the Office of Personnel Management.

The CBO says it's questionable whether "insurers would be interested in offering such plans is unclear, and establishing a nationwide plan comprising only nonprofit insurers might be particularly difficult." Note, even should a national non-profit be set up by an insurer, it is not the equivalent of the public option.

effective they will be:

California recently dropped an attempt to enforce its anti-rescission law against a major insurer, saying that it was financially outgunned by the insurer's legal team.

The rescission law, according to the legislation, "shall not apply to a covered individual who has performed an act or practice that constitutes fraud or makes an intentional misrepresentation of material fact as prohibited by the terms of the plan or coverage."

Insurers today routinely claim that patients engaged in "fraud" or "intentional misrepresentation" when dropping them from coverage. Much depends on who defines the terms in the bill.

It won't be the federal government. There will be no federal agency tasked with overseeing the enforcement of the bill's rules. Rather, a Senate leadership aide told reporters in a briefing Saturday, individual states will police the new system.

That's a task the California Department of Managed Health Care was unable to perform when battling Anthem Blue Cross, which has rescinded 1,770 policies since 2004.

"In each and every one of those rescissions, the right to contest each, and that could tie us up in court forever," the department's director, Cindy Ehnes, told The Associated Press. A million-dollar fine was announced in March 2007, but has not been enforced.

If the enforcement for these regulations falls on the individual states, and the individual states will have to litigate them, which could take a very long time in each case. The regulations are unlikely to be uniformly enforced state to state--some of them have extremely proactive insurance commissioners and strong regulatory structures in place, others don't. And in the states that don't, don't expect insurers to end some of these practices out of the goodness of their hearts.

Bottom line, Americans are still going to be forced to buy insurance that for too many people will be unaffordable. As long as that's the case, and until there's a true alternative public option that provides people real choice, the insurance companies shouldn't get that one thing in the legislation they want: the mandate.


from Daily Kos




This odd juxtaposition of "suffer now, benefit later" is the byproduct of the administration's sleight of hand in specifying 10 years' worth of cuts and taxes in the legislation, but deferring its benefits for the first four years. By comparing six years of spending with 10 years of taxing, it managed to appear deficit-neutral under the rules of the Congressional Budget Office. In fact, the annual revenues fall far short of covering any single year's worth of spending, adding to the deficit for each of the last six years over the next 10 ---- but, viewing the decade as a whole, it appears deficit-neutral.

Yet the political price is hardly neutral. Democrats who misguidedly vote for this monstrosity will face immediate political repercussions.

The harshest of these backlashes will come from the elderly, who will face the rationing immediately.

The first "no" will hit the 10 million elderly who now rely on Medicare Advantage to pay for the care Medicare itself does not cover. In a payoff to AARP, Obama gutted this program in his bill, ending over $100 billion in federal premium subsidies.

These 10 million voters will get the grim news that their premiums are going up and their benefits dropping early in 2010. The goal, of course, is to force them to drop Medicare Advantage and sign up, instead, for Medi-gap insurance ---- offered, not coincidentally, by the AARP ---- which provides less coverage at higher cost.

Young people without health insurance can expect to start writing $750 annual checks to Washington to pay the fines written into the bill. (And, after the Conference Committee finishes its work, the fines may be higher.)

All Americans will soon find their insurance premiums rising as a result of the bill. The young uninsured will not buy policies. Why should they? Why not just pay the $750 fine each year? Why pay between 2 percent and 10 percent of their household income before subsidies kick in? It makes no financial sense for anyone making more than $30,000 to pay for coverage. (And most of those under that threshold will be covered by Medicaid, not by private insurance.)

There is no reason for the young to buy private insurance. The legislation requires that health insurers take all comers and not raise rates based on pre-existing conditions. So the young can get coverage when they need it, having only paid $750 per year beforehand.

The difference in cost will, of course, be borne by families throughout America, who will see their health insurance premiums increase. President Obama and his Democratic rubber stamps may appreciate that they are not raising taxes on the middle class, just raising mandatory health insurance premiums, but the distinction is likely to be lost on swing voters.


AfterDowningStreet.org
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
124. Wow, this is even worse than I thought.
Thank you for posting this.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #124
196. And notice not ONE apologist rebuttal when things like that are posted.
We are supposed to enjoy our "win", wave our Pom-Poms, and yell "Go Packers".

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
227. Thanks for this info. nt
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
457. YES, middle class will be hurt
If premiums go up I will have to drop my substandard costly BC/BS policy.

WE GOT SOLD OUT, WE GOT TRICKED. :(
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. You've slimed the potential bill repeatedly,
YOU look it up. You might learn something.

Or not.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. How about you tell us what you know Clifford? Or is sliming me more important?
;)
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
50. I'm just into it for the lower classes.
Like me.


My wife and I were wiped completely out by medical bills. Stripped to the bone. Bankrupted.

Me and my uninsured cancer surviving uninsurable 60 year old wife.

So: You can snark and ask bogus questions and play the activist game here, but there is real benefit for some of us in this bill....

That's the only answer you get, and more than you deserve.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #50
66. From my understanding of the bill, the lower classes will
receive sub-standard health care at best.

The bill is discriminatory in the sense that older people will pay more, and the poor who will be forced to pay for premiums, will obviously choose the least expensive. That means huge co-pays which they will not be able to afford.

I too am worried mostly about the poor. No one who supports this bill has shown me how the poor will be getting equal care to the wealthy. This is about life, not what kind of car we can afford. So, do you know what the co-pays will be on the least expensive premiums which will be the only kind the poor can afford? And considering the fear of bills like that, how many will do anything different than they are doing now, not use the premiums they are forced to buy, for fear of huge bills in the form of co-pays?

My final question is 'why in America does your economic status affect the quality of health care you will receive'? Why the discrimination about something that all other developed nations consider a right?
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #66
143. At our end of the spectrum it will hardly matter...
As soon as she goes to the emergency room...which happened when her hand got infected last week --the bill comes to a little over 700.00.

We have arranged to make payments, but I know from experience that if we are late they will happily send us to the collection agency.

And they don't play.

At this point substandard is better and cheaper than what she has.

I have medicare, so my situation is somewhat better--- I've heard that it's going to be cut in places.

They are cuts I cannot afford, but will gladly suffer if SHE can have some primary care.

If you don't know what this is like, count your blessings.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #143
147. You are the kind of folks who would really benefit from single payer
And you do benefit somewhat from this bill, provided that you have enough money to make up the rest of the health insurance premium plus co-pays. And of course, this is all based on how well Congress polices the insurance companies and is able to control rate increases. Considering that Wellpoint is currently suing the state of Maine for higher premiums (your out of pocket expenses), I am not optimistic about it. And as you have stated, Medicare will be cut.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #147
454. they probably would benefit from free cheese too
if they could jump over the moon.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #143
193. Not only do I know what it is like
I have, through a friend, seen the system in operation and all I can say is I was shocked that we live in a country that treats its own citizens this way.

My friend, who was young, is dead. But from what I am reading about this bill, his situation would not have improved regarding the care he needed. He would not have gone for treatment under this bill either, because he would not have been able to afford the co-pays. He too got huge bills from the emergency room visits, and no, contrary to what rightwingers claim, (and Obama sadly) the Emergency room is not free, you are right about that. But the cost of co-pays will keep the poor from getting the treatment the need, just as the bills from the Emergency room do. Whether it is $1,000 or $10,000, it is all the same to those who cannot afford either.

I am sorry about your wife, and about my friend, and all those who have died for lack of healthcare in this country. And I am sorry that it will continue with the only difference being that now, the poor will be forced to hand over money they cannot afford to an Industry that be should under investigation in any normal society, but instead is being hugely rewarded. And that in return for that money, they will get little or nothing. The money would be better spent on decent food.

I am concerned about other people I know under this bill. But it is not just about me or any one individual. All Americans are entitled to the same treatment Congress gets, as Obama once believed. Either that or we have accepted the fact that American citizens' lives are worth less than the lives of citizens in other civilized countries. And as long as Americans are willing to submit to being abused by their government, they will be.

Americans compared to citizens of other countries I have been to, are sad to say, so beaten down that they are grateful for crumbs. It is embarrassing to see people so broken in spirit, to be honest.



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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #193
194. "Americans compared to citizens of other countries I have been to, are sad to say, so beaten down
that they are grateful for crumbs. It is embarrassing to see people so broken in spirit, to be honest."

You are on to more than you know with that statement.

Not only do they accept crumbs, they actually CHEER IT ON, and think it's good. As long as their "Football Team" is the one screwing them.

it is like some kind of sick, twisted Stockholm syndrome.

Most Americans live in a false left/right paradigm of fake political theater, endlessly mesmerized and hypnotized by a system of two "Parties" that do not represent their interests, could care less about the Country, rule of law, Constitution, or ANY greater good, and simply use them and play them against each other, all in the name of agendas that have NOTHING to do with We The People.

But this concept is too much for most of them to handle, so they willingly keep living in their Truman Show, hoping for a different result.

There are also many who can see what is really going on, and can see past all the bullshit, caught smack in the middle of both sides who insanely cling to the illusion that they would fight and die for instead of live in reality.

And for them, that is becoming an ever increasing dangerous place to be.

How can a country save itself when most of it's people not only refuse to even see what is destroying them, but desperately keep ENABLING their enemy to do whatever it wants to them?

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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #194
199. +100
reading your post reminded me of "What's the Matter With Kansas," which attempted to explain how working class republicans would vote against their economic interests and continue to adulate the perpetrators

now, it's deja vu, but with many of our own adulating and perpetrating

otherwise, Chomsky, too, writes of what you spoke; so did C. Wright Mills
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #194
207. +millions. wish I could rec your post and the one to which you were replying.
I keep thinking about the last lines in "sicko" (rough paraphrase here) "what would it be like if we were free of the fear of illness, of debt for education--what could we do if tje chains were lifted. watch out, world."

this so-called (laughably, sadly) "greatest country in the world" has one of the worst "health-care" systems, unimaginable poverty, and one VERY, VERY rich military-industrial-insurance complex that is sinking us further and further into third-rate status.

I weep for what this country could have been.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #194
216. Simple answer?
It cannot survive.

The next twenty years are going to be very interesting. In a chinese curse sort of way.
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liberal_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #194
247. very sad but very true
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #194
248. This should be its own OP, The Watcher.
Thank you for posting it.
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liberal_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #248
270. I agree. It is such a good post it should be it's own OP
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #270
331. I'll third that. nt.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #331
347. +10
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #194
332. is this an OP yet?
if not, it should be. Let me know when you've sent it out there.

i wonder who would defend "playing the game", or claim there's substance to the illusion...

K&R for you TheWatcher.




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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #332
344. I'm afraid if it WAS an OP it would be overrun with Apologist Ire or conveniently locked as
"flamebait".

Points of view like the one I posted are almost too volatile to be allowed to stand on their own, because a far to large a percentage of DU, no matter how well-meaning, is not willing to even allow themselves to ENTERTAIN such a point of view, because it is too much to handle, and they cannot let go of their paradigm.

Whether it be out of fear, compliance, willful ignorance, or loyalty to the only thing they have ever known.

In order to wake up, people must first be able to face that which they cannot.

Most of DU is not ready.

But I am glad to see that there are signs.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #344
433. There are those of us who are not only READY, but waiting.
And, of course, you are right.... the denial is deep and wide.

Step out on this... some of us decided to do so a long time ago. Yes, of course we take the slings and arrows... but it is also gathering together those of us who have removed the scales from our eyes.

"Progressives" don't want to face the truth about themselves.... they just want to be content to blame it all on the RW. I'm afraid it will take a world of pain to break through that resistance. But, the nation depends on it.

Step on out....
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #194
425. Well..
... as a broken record (who agrees with you) I'd say that things are going to change soon (within a few years) as our economy fails completely. I know everyone here thinks I'm a nutbag, they said so back in 2006 when I told them this shit was coming, but unfortunately, despite what you are hearing on the TeeVee, our economy is hanging by a thread that has to break eventually.

And when it does there is going to be real pain, real blame, real recrimination, and real reform. Because starving people don't want to hear more bullshit from politicians.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #193
458. All Americans are entitled to the same treatment Congress gets, as Obama once believed.
Sabrina, you are right! *hug*
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
432. OF COURSE "the poor" will continually get sub-standard care.
We have few advocates, so they know they can walk all over us.

Do you see us listed on any of the DU lists of priorities?

That says it ALL.
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #50
208. Did you know that because you don't have insurance the cost for your
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 09:55 AM by rateyes
visits to the hospital are 5 times the amount as the costs are for those with insurance? The hospitals actually charge that much more for the poor than they do for the rich. And, there is nothing in this bill that forces hospitals to lower those costs.

The insurance that you will now get will have an individual deductible (probably around $500.00), and a family deductible (probably around $1000) and an 80% co-pay up until the bill reaches a certain amount, and then it will pay 100%. But, you will have a maximum amount out of pocket of somewhere around $15,000 PER YEAR.

So, my guess is that had you had insurance, with the health problems of your wife that you have described, you would have still been bankrupted. And, on top of that, you would have been FORCED to pay high premiums for the POS policy that is coming your way.

Happy New Year!
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
221. In other words, you can't answer the question. nt
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #221
345. No, but he can endlessly insult you and attack you for daring to suggest he should be able to.
Everyone has their own "special talent" I guess.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #345
346. There's a small, but very active, vocal, and vicious core
who appear repeatedly in any thread threatening their status quo. :(
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #346
434. Really? I hadn't noticed them...
:rofl:

:hi:

Very similar to the crowds which viciously attacked Malcolm X, et.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #434
447. .
Hadn't noticed them. :P

Very much like those same crowds.

:hi:
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. The bill isn't for "average" people, it's for those without affordable insurance or
uninsured.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. So you're admitting it doesn't help the average person. eom
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
69. Since the bill isn't finished, I can't admit or dis-admit anything, just that the
purpose of the bill wasn't necessarily to help the average person who has insurance through their employer and likes their plan, which I've heard quoted as being upwards of 70% of the population.

If the lifetime/yearly caps are in fact removed, if in fact pre-existing conditions can't be used against anyone, and if in fact insurers can no longer drop you when you get sick, I'd say those are good for all persons, average or not.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. The person who has insurance through their employer is stuck in their plan.
You will not be able to buy into the exchange if you get insurance through work.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #72
126. Correct.
Another way in which the average person gets trapped.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #126
408. Most people
would be glad to be caught in that particular "trap."
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JFN1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #408
418. Smart people know it is better to not be caught in ANY trap.
A "welcome" trap - is still a fucking trap.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #418
437. I would not complain about having a job with great health care benefits
when so many people have no job at all.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #69
161. Preventing the insurers from denying preexisting conditions but allowing them to continue recission
for cases of 'fraud,' which is the same reason they always say they are rescinding coverage is not much protection. In fact, rather that outright turn you down, they can collect your money for years and boot you out for 'lying (forget to mention that broken arm when you were 6?)' when you get sick. All the talk about doing away with rescission was just that-talk. They left the loophole in.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #161
176. Another loophole.
Good Lord.
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #161
219. Yep, hence all the "ifs" in my post. Given the circular nature of the wording
of the bills, and not knowing what the final bill will look like, there are lots of "ifs" that have to be sorted out and loopholes found (and closed hopefully)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #219
249. You can't argue on "ifs". The one sure thing is the MANDATE.
The rest has always been up for argument. In the end, no matter what happens, the mandate will stay intact.
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #249
338. I don't see the mandate as inherently bad. Universal HC would be best
and it would require a mandate of some sort of taxes, probably payroll taxes as SS and Medicare already have. Which is essentially a mandate.

A public option would certainly be the next best thing to go with the mandate, and I'm discouraged it seems to be gone even through the House/Senate bill reconciliation. But the mandate in and of itself isn't a bad thing for "average" people as you asked in the OP.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #338
342. a mandate demanding that people buy an inferior product, one they don't want, from companies that
will do nothing for them? handing over 31 million people as slaves to the murderous insurance cartel is a good thing, in your view? perhaps you could explain that.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #342
411. Ridiculous hyperbole.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #161
410. In my opinion,
if the insurance company wants to claim that a contract was invalid from the outset, they should have to return all the premiums that were paid. Maybe it wouldn't be a lot, but it would be something.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #69
402. 'Deny' is the word you failed to find. n/t
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t0dd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Huge K&R. Hilarious and truthful. Thanks, Nikki! nt
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. well
If you are ever going to have universal care or even single payer, you have to have everyone buying in.

Of course, if you can't afford it you will be subsidized.

Not many are totally happy with what has been presented. There are problems, it is not perfect. But by gawd, it is making progress. So, never give up striving to make it the best it can be, just be assured that finally, we are making progress.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. OK. So the upside is that more people will have insurance and some will be subsidized.
That's actually a legitimate argument.

(The rest of the post is platitudes, so I am going to ignore that part.)

The issue then becomes:

1. Is it really universal? Remember that illegals can't buy in (which is a problem here in CA, since our emergency rooms still have to give away a lot of care for free.) Remember also that for some, it will be cheaper to pay the fine than buy the insurance.

2. What is the quality of the insurance?

3. How is the cost of the insurance controlled?

4. Who will pay for the subsidy? (The answer is "us", through our taxes.)

5. What else is being sacrificed for this and is it worth it?

Those are my questions. But your point is the first that was made and I appreciate your response. If there is anything good to come out of the bill, you hit it on the hear.
:patriot:
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. hmmm
Illegals can't buy in? That's bad. Damn pubbies messed that up, eh?

Can't answer the rest of the questions, but hopefully our reps have thought of those and have, or will have good resolutions.

Been lucky, here, and never needed or wanted insurance. And figured that if I ever wanted it, I couldn't afford it, so I'll be one of those who might be able to afford it now. We'll see. But know there are many in the same position as I.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #35
154. Yeah, the illegals were banned from the exchange, which is really not too bright of the GOP
It would have taken the burden off of emergency rooms in CA.

We have to demand answers to the rest of these questions because we are going to be the ones stuck with the bill. That's why I am relentless on this: there are too many families with no expendable income who will have to carve out a portion of their income for insurance payments. And there's a middle class that will be subsidizing more than they can handle.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #154
412. I thought that illegal immigrants
were here illegally, right? Why would they be entitled to any government benefits, when they are breaking the law by being here?

The illegal immigration problem is a huge one to tackle. I'm against amnesty because I saw what happened when Reagan did it before. It simply encouraged more illegal immigration. Amnesty was fine ONCE, but we can't keep doing it. We simply can't. If we do, we'd just as well forget immigration quotas (since repeated amnesties make a joke of controlled immigration) and just throw open the borders.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #154
436. ISn't it interesting that so many people think they are safe from catching disease from ONE
particular group of people???

You'd think Homeland Security would DEMAND everyone have medical care, for the safety of the nation!

Whadda concept...
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
48. Why do we need a mandate before we have
universal care or single payer? Why before? I understand if we had either but until we do a mandate sucks.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #48
108. Since nothing really kicks in until 2014, they could take the mandate out now.
They could make the insurance cos. earn it through concessions.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #108
165. And insurance companies would then back the GOP with mega $$$
It's a vicious circle.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
231. Wall Street needs the $ now. It IS where insurance premiums go.
Since we stopped the effort to 'privatize Social Security' Wall Street has been limping along, looking for new patsies. They have pretty much blown through the money middle class and workers hoping for some retirement had to offer.

The pyramid scheme needs more stone blocks to stay standing, thus the mandate.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #231
250. That's right. Wall Street needs its fix and even Bush couldn't dump SS into the Casino
Of course, Obama might be able to do that. :(
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #250
259. Few are noticing this angle of the mandate
It's an end run around the voters putting their foot down on privatizing Social Security. Insurance industry just well paid money launderers.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #259
281. God, have you got that right!
The easiest thing for the government to do would be to extend Medicare to everyone. The "infrastructure" (to quote so many this morning) is already there. This new system will actually end up costing a great deal to administer. The sole purpose seems to be to get money our of our hands and into corporate ones, even by force of law.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #231
333. Exactly. And this won't feed the beast for long. nt
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #48
435. If we had a good plan to choose, they would have to beat people away with sticks.
:shrug:

It says something when they feel compelled to FORCE people.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
146. This is not a path to single payer. It is the opposite.
Furthermore, they are cutting Medicare - the single payer we DO have - to the tune of half a billion dollars. I'd say that makes it pretty clear that there will be NO single payer.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #146
251. You're right on the money.
That's why I am so worried. Medicare won't be there when I retire.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. 45,000 dead per year times the number of years before the bill takes effect is what? at least 135k
before 2014. a lot of average people dying, but I guess the supporters won't be talking about THEM.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Wouldn't expanding Medicare for all immediately, be more helpful?
That seems like it would save more lives than coming up with an Insurance Industry hybrid and delaying it, if saving lives was really the goal.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
156. Yes it would.
Good response too. It's amazing how they can't rebut that.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
413. Medicare For All
makes the most sense to me. The bureaucracy is already in place to do it, and people understand it (or know someone who does).

If they're going to do away with pre-existing condition clauses, they have to have that mandate, though, otherwise people won't buy insurance until they need it and premiums will skyrocket. I think everybody should have insurance, and I'm not against mandates if that's what it takes.
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
173. Yes, we have waited far too long to get something done already.

Reform In The Modern Era
After World War II, President Henry Truman launched another effort advocating sweeping political and social reform which he called the “Fair Deal.” President Truman went so far as to make universal health care coverage part of the Democratic Party’s Platform. Although Truman was, in the end, forced to settle for a modest expansion of Social Security coverage, his platform was to be a direct influence over Lyndon Johnson’s proposals, outlined in his “Great Society” policy.



Read more at Suite101: U.S. Presidents And Health Care Reform: The History Of Public Health Politics In America http://modern-us-history.suite101.com/article.cfm/us_presidents_and_healthcare_reform#ixzz0as5Js5NZ

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #173
180. Doing something because you don't want to wait anymore can be problematic:
It's like marrying the wrong person because you broke up with two other people in the past and figure that you've waited long enough to walk down the aisle. Now you're on the way down the aisle with an abusive person who is about to make your life hell. How is that a good thing?

And walking down the aisle with the wrong kind of health INSURANCE bill because you really would like single payer but haven't ever gotten it is just as destructive.
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #180
182. 45,000 dead per year for lack of health care.
So let's keep on doing what we've always done.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #182
237. And how is that going to change? If people have to pay for insurance with
copays and deductibles that are so high they can't afford to seek medical care they STILL won't have health care. Being forced to buy insurance is not the same as actually having access to health care.
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #237
309. More than half of the uninsured with qualify for expanded Medicaid -no premiums or deductibles there
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #309
321. And who is paying for the expanded Medicaid?
?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #309
322. And who is paying for the expanded Medicaid?
?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #322
353. .
.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #309
444. Medicaid is not the panacea you try to make it.
As it's currently set up even people who are destitute can find themselves NOT qualifying for it. (And you have to be destitute to get it.)
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #237
363. You are describing my current situation.
At worst, nothing has changed.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #363
439. So you want to subject more people to your situation?
The point is to get people health CARE. Right now all this does is force people to buy a faulty product. I don't consider that a step forward at all.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #182
253. 45K dead, so let's have a new system that could kill even more when all is said and done.
Because that's what will happen if this "infrastructure" goes through. No death panels, no Hitler. Just the nickel and diming to death of the citizen to the point where it's either health insurance or food. That's what is coming.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #253
417. I really wish that
people would hold off on the rants until we get to see the final bill.

I don't see how worrying oneself into a frenzy over something that it not a done deal helps anyone.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #180
416. Not really an apt analogy.
Now you're on the way down the aisle with an abusive person who is about to make your life hell. How is that a good thing?

And walking down the aisle with the wrong kind of health INSURANCE bill because you really would like single payer but haven't ever gotten it is just as destructive.


There's a lot better chance of changing this legislation into something more palatable than there is of changing an abusive husband. Something constructive can come of this.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
184. 45,000 dead per year takes the pressure
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 03:27 AM by cornermouse
of social security "running out" or "going under" that you always hear the politicians talking about. It takes the pressure off medicare also. Dead people can't claim benefits. Apparently a two-fer in some people's eyes.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #184
254. 45K is not enough to affect Social Security in a big way.
There are literally tens of millions on it.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. Popcorn
:popcorn:
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Great thread, Nikki. So far it's been the predictable lectures and guilt trips. eom
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Be Free makes the one good argument in the thread and should be saluted.
I appreciate that, a lot.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
153. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Woo hoo!
Bizarre joy at snarky nonsense.

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
41. Don't you take a dinner break or anything.
You have been spamming all day long. All day yesterday too.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. "You have been spamming all day long. All day yesterday too." How do you know? n/t
Yes, I ate.

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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. GD-P, sort by 'Author'
It is kind of startling, no?

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Startling to the fear of facts crowd. n/t
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. a
mercenary
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IRemember Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. very. Poor Prononsense.
:rofl:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Oh you're so cute. n/t
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #51
186. do you think
it's all the same person?

or several, sharing the same username?

if someone had the time and tools, it'd be interesting to compare the posts



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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. nah
it might miss its daily quota
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #41
100. He gets paid Double time on holidays and weekends.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #41
167. Don't be concerned.
I hear the WH press office puts out a nice buffet.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. K, R & as suspected...
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. "What is good for the AVERAGE American about this bill"
Do you know what this chart means:




Do you know how many people are in that category on the far left (100)?

Millions of Americans will pay nothing for health care, and gradually across the chart, millions more will pay modest amounts. Many of these individuals and families will see their health care costs drop by thousands of dollars.

Still, you asked: "What is good for the AVERAGE American about this bill"

See the chart.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Do you know where that chart comes from, how accurate it is and who put it together?
Little bars are lovely but they are meaningless without the source material.

And that is why I call you Prononsense, you silly girl. You throw around quotes and graphs and things as if they have intrinsic value. You don't really understand things, you just toss details into threads, make copious links, and then expect to be believed.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. So you don't know what you're talking about. And back to
the childishness to cover your ignorance.

"And that is why I call you Prononsense, you silly girl."

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IRemember Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. How dare you call anyone else childish. Look at your immature rampage the entire day.
Ridiculing anyone that doesn't share your view. Please. YOU are the childish one.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Who the hell are you? I will call anyone childish who resorts to name calling
If you don't like it, tough shit.


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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
222. Look In The Mirror, Little Propagandist
How much are you getting paid?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #222
370. "Little Propagandist"? over your head that she was the one
attacked, and that, yes, that attack was childish?

you got your memes down, don't you?

provocative.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #25
367. you really do have it backwards, but it seems you intend that. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. You started a snarky thread based on your ignorance and now call
me "Prononsense"?

Oh, the irony.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Where does the graph come from? Who put it together? Where did the numbers come from?
This is all I care about.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
76. I don't think you'll be getting an answer.
People who treat politics like sports tend not to know a whole hell of a lot about facts they just cheer because their side says it was good.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #79
95. Maybe if you were as smart as you pretend to be you'd realize the chart is hotlinked. n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #95
109. There is a reason I am asking YOU the questions.
So answer them. Unless you're too scared to.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #109
197. And with all due respect nikki, there is a REASON it never ANSWERS them.
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 05:56 AM by TheWatcher
And you are smart enough to know why.

Quit wasting your time, and focus on those who are more relevant.

And keep speaking out.

Oh, and K&R. :)
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #197
280. It has friends in high places.
I get that. But it is a stupid thing, and we all see through it.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #95
210. you know, most of us don't click on links unless we have some idea where they lead.
so the very fact that you refused to identify this chart tells us volumes about you, cupcake.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #95
335. Hotlinked to another DU thread. n/t
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
238. ....yet the graph you posted is totally useless. n/t
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
141.  I believe the chart is from economist Paul Krugman
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 01:38 AM by andym
who states that the data in the chart was provided by the calculator at the Kaiser Foundation non-profit's website.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/26/numerical-notes-on-health-care-reform/


Here is the calculator website:
http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx#tableLinkDiv

The calculator has been available since at least late October and appears to be updated as details about the plans change-- the last update occurred after the publication of the Senate Bill. I'm not aware that anyone has questioned it's accuracy. The site also includes a very cool comparison of plans, where for example Medicare for All can be compared with the current Senate bill (see here http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sidebyside.cfm choose "Representative John Conyers" and "Senate Leadership Bill" and then select ALL Topics for comparison). IMHO, Medicare for All wins in every available category.

Back to the topic, Here is the description of the calculator.
" This tool illustrates premiums and government assistance under the types of reform proposals being considered in Congress for people under age 65 who purchase coverage on their own in an Exchange and are not covered through their employer, Medicare or Medicaid. While the proposals considered would not take effect for several years (2013 in the House and 2014 in the Senate), the results are presented in terms of 2009 premium and income levels to enable better comparisons to current circumstances. The tool allows the user to start with the provisions from one of several proposals and examine the impact at different income levels. Advanced settings allow users to change assumptions to show the effect of different policy choices.

A few caveats:

* Specific subsidies for cost sharing and what people might pay out-of-pocket for deductibles and coinsurance are not illustrated on the calculator.
* In many cases coverage will be more comprehensive and accessible than what is typically available today in the non-group market, so premiums cannot easily be compared to what people buying insurance on their own are now paying.
* The calculator does not apply to people with coverage available through an employer, where the firm is generally paying for a substantial portion of the insurance premium."
---------------------------
So the potential copays and deductables for those 100-400% need to calculated as well.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #141
159. Actually the source is Kaiser. The Kaiser Foundation and Kaiser Permanente were
started by the same man. The former is a health issues think tank; the latter is the insurance/HMO company. While they are technically separate, both organizations have a vested interest in seeing this legislation pass.

The calculator is a "gadget" that is based on numbers that have not been settled on yet. These are potential subsidies, not those in actual fact since the bills have not yet been reconciled. The gadget also does not account for increasing costs even a year or two out from the potential legislation. It's actually fairly meaningless at the moment. Its main purpose is to provide a visual in support of the eventual bill.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #159
168. She didn't know where it came from.
She copied it from a Krugman column and posted it elsewhere. She got a lot of questions about it and ducked them the same way she did here. Good at pasting; not good at understanding.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #168
175. Thank you. And that's my point. That's why I kept asking her (Prononsense).
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 02:24 AM by Nikki Stone1
People post far too much crap without knowing where it comes from and what it means. She's a huge offender: dozens of hotlinks and no understanding. It's dangerous because she appears to know what she is talking about when she's actually clueless.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #175
177. I think more are catching on to her stuff.
Whenever you question her on any of her multiple paste-posts she goes into snark and insult defense mode, never ever answers a question.

With work this shoddy, maybe the unemployment rate is going to rise by a tiny percentage point.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #177
178. I'm glad to hear that.
And I notice that her threads are not getting a lot of recs here.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #175
198. Dozens of hotlinks and an AGENDA. THINK AGAIN.
Dangerous, but for different reasons.

Dangerous, but definitely NOT clueless.

She knows exactly what she's doing.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #198
255. OK, I'll take your word for it.
She has to be fought at every turn.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #175
341. There are a few of posters who fit that description.
And they joined DU at about the same time.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #168
188. exactly!
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #159
179. I believe you are correct not only the chart's data (as I mentioned) but the chart is from Kaiser.
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 03:00 AM by andym
(Based on the attribution in the Krugman article)
As for the vested interest of the Kaiser Foundation in reform, that very well might be. I do not know the inner workings of their foundation. However, Drew Altman, the President and CEO of the non-profit foundation appears to have the respect of "Physicians for National Health Plans," one of the strongest advocate groups for single-payer. They do not portray him as one who has a vested interest in the current plans.

See here:
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/november/drew-altman-on-americans-affording-health-care
especially the comments by PNHP's Dr. McCanne
"Drew Altman is a very intelligent and very well informed advocate of a health care system that works well for all of us. His only handicap is that, as President and CEO of the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation, he must maintain his reputation as a highly credible but impartial voice on health care reform. That requires diligently negotiating his way through the minefield of Washington politics.

Setting ideology and politics aside, Altman makes it clear that wealth redistribution is absolutely essential if everyone is going to have the health care that they need. By far the simplest, most efficient, and most equitable method of doing that would be to enact a single payer system. But this is where ideology and politics enter.
......

We can take Drew Altman's astute observations on "the meat-and-potatoes pocketbook problems that average Americans are having in paying for their health care," and we can run with it. We know how to fix it, even if he can't publicly endorse our model of an improved Medicare for all. When we succeed, Drew Altman certainly will be at least a little bit smug. Let's go!"

As you can see they feel Dr Altman is on the side of single-payer, which doesn't surprise me. Just as the calculations show that those within 400% of the poverty line will get subsidies for premiums (though not necessarily for copays and deductibles), the site clearly shows the superiority of HR676 to either plan.(if you follow the comparison instructions in my previous post)

I think the limitations of the data are very clearly explained in my previous post as well.


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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #159
187. yes,
and i agree with your posts

but i just realized she got them from paul krugman's online blog for Saturday.....yet did not bother to even credit the source in her OP
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
368. "you silly girl"? "you really don't understand things"? egotist? nt
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
419. Here is a source
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. So forced insurance buyers will have to turn over copies of their 1040s
To the Insurance Industry, so that the Insurance Industry will charge them a discounted rate?

Is that what you are saying?

Will the Insurance Agent have an IRS Agent there to qualify the buyer?
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
142. This chart isn't as 'nice' as it looks. In fact it substantiates the serious problems with the bill.
The poverty levelfor a single person is $10,830.

150% above the poverty level works out to $16,245 a year before taxes and social security.

Your chart indicates that a person making that much will be required to pay about 15% of the mandated premiums. That could still mean hundreds of dollars for some people.

People living on $16k a year usually have very, very little money left over after rent, food and bills.

This chart actually proves exactly what is wrong with the bill.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #142
162. This response is excellent.
Thank you for posting it.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #162
169. Thank you for asking the question you did in your OP
It would be nice if it could be answered without a lot of snark and personal attacks.

It would be nice to see some actual numbers connected to that mandate. What sort of percentage of income are we talking about? What sort of deductables and copays? No one seems to have answers to those crucial questions. Just personal attacks if you ask them.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #169
256. I think it's because there are no real answers on the long term.
Whatever happens financially will change in short order. What we do have is the experience of Massachusetts (on which this plan is based) and Maine (currently being sued by Wellpoint). Neither bodes well for this.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
352. Tripling of CHC's, that in itself makes the bill worth fighting for
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:32 AM
Original message
We can do that for way less than 900 billion
I don't think a 10 billion dollar program can be logically used to justify a trillion dollar expenditure.
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Frosty1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
17. The insurance companies can no longer deny coverage
for a pre-existing condition?
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Congress couldn't regulate that without this bill?
Why couldn't they?
:shrug:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Excellent question. The answer, is that insurance companies would never let that happen.
But certainly separate legislation could be passed. The quid pro quo here is the mandates.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Congress writes laws. They made it illegal. n/t
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. But they could write a bill saying Insurance Companies could not discriminate.
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 10:10 PM by Kansas Wyatt
And the President could sign it without forcing Americans to buy insurance from the Insurance Industry.

On edit: My original point was that they could have written a bill for the President to sign, without the alleged HCR Bill they have now.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #39
157. Yes. That could be done.
It wasn't. Too much lobbying money.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:06 PM
Original message
They did not make anything illegal yet. Preexisting conditions are still a barrier
until this bill becomes a law.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
61. "Preexisting conditions are still a barrier until this bill becomes a law."
Great rebuttal.

:rofl:


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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
117. It's the truth, you silly thing.
Your really CAN'T think. :wow:
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
60. Without a mandate, yes they couldn't do that
Because it creates a free rider problem where people will just buy insurance the moment they get sick.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #60
73. A law could have been crafted a lot easier than a mandate...
To prevent people from waiting until something was wrong with them, before they thought about insurance coverage.

Hell, expanded Medicare could have easily solved that problem with a lot less trouble and cost.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. OK. That's another point. But, insurers can charge higher rates
even extremely high or exorbitant ones. The lack of a public option means that there is NO incentive to keep rates low for everyone, and those charged most will be those with preexisting conditions from all the reports I have seen. If you have other information, please share it. It would help to know.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. But do they have controls on what they can charge for pre-existing conditions?
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 10:03 PM by OmmmSweetOmmm
If they don't it means squat.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
28. Everyone will have health insurance
Children covered up to 25
No preexisting conditions denial
Many things, countless threads have set them out in GDP
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
44. How many more non-existent jobs am I going to have to get for...
The price of insurance coverage for my pre-existing conditions?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. Children covered up to 25 on their parents' insurance, with parents paying extra of course
OK.

Now what controls are there on the cost for that insurance?

(Pre-existing conditions have been covered up thread)

I don't disagree that it might be helpful in some circumstances for parents to be able to cover their adult children. I would like to see adult children able to cover their parents (under 65) who are out of work.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. You are just determined to deny anything in it is good
Someone mentions something good, you shoot it down.

Even if they pay extra, it was impossible before.

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t0dd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Kinda like homeless people. We should pass a law forcing them to buy homes.
Because it isn't that they can't afford them, right? :eyes:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #55
125. I'm showing you the loopholes.
That's all.
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liberal_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #125
138. +1000, exactly
The insurance companies are getting to write this legislation. They will have a loophole for everything. People will be forced to buy insurance and the insurance companies will find a way to increase premiums, deductibles, and deny claims. With as much influence as the insurance industry has in this bill I'm not sure I would even trust the public option. I'm sure the insurance industry would find a way to screw us on that too. I know I would be screwed even if there was a public option because my husband gets his insurance through his employer.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #138
158. Thank you.
I think people really want to believe. That makes those of us who point out loopholes heretics. :(
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #55
284. I think it's to age 26. n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #284
295. I had heard 27, but the argument still stands.
.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #28
170. Coverage is not care. nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #170
181. Also a good point.
And care will require copays in addition to the premiums.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #181
232. It also requires transportation, time off work, often childcare
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 01:25 PM by havocmom
All are serious obstacles for many (if not all) working poor, working class, even many in middle class.

Asking for time off for a visit to the doctor (on doctor's schedule, not your boss's) can actually put employment at risk for many people. If they also have to do it regularly for actual TREATMENT (health care) most bosses will balk at accommodating.

Businesses have cut personnel to the bone in many places and asking for time off to take care of one's health makes one a liability to employers. They may not phrase it honestly, but work appraisals often suffer, putting people on the 'in case of lay-off: start here' lists many employers keep in their heads.

The mandate = penalty for being less than well off/well paid. It does NOT = health care for the poor. Subsidies are swell, but people will still have to pay some for premiums AND care. If they put their jobs at risk to actually seek care, how the hell have they gained a damned thing?

It's SO much more than premiums and co-pays.

Thanks for the tread, by the way. I am gonna send link to one of my senators, a chap named Baucus :evilgrin: Since his staff won't take calls and nobody ever gets back to us....

edited for typo
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #232
243. Let us know if Baucus's office answers.
:evilgrin:
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #243
260. If they do, you will probably be reading...
havocmom, a long time Montana crank, died of a heart attack....
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #260
283. LOL!
I'll be waiting with bated breath.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
217. wrong-- there are roughly 47 million without insurance, and, according to even the posts on DU--only
about 31 million more will be covered. that leaves roughly 16 million still without insurance.

and, as has been pointed out repeatedly, which you seem to ignore, coverage is NOT care.

we will not have UNIVERSAL health care, so please do not say everyone will be covered.

and, how do you feel about forcing people to buy defective products, under penalty of, at the very least, fines? do you think enforced servitude to the blood-sucking insurance cartel is okay?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #217
257. So this bill will actually leave 16 million without health insurance
Bad as it is.
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TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
369. that's a flat out lie
Everyone will NOT have insurance. Only those people that can afford insurance will have insurance, and I'm not one of those people who can afford it. With this bill, not only will I spend my life in fear of getting sick or injured because I have no insurance I will now be FINED for not being able to afford insurance. And you can STFU about subsidies. I don't qualify for ANY subsidy because the government thinks that I'm too wealthy to be permitted any even though I live in a dump, drive a falling apart piece of shit car and have no savings or anything even approaching a luxury like cable tv.

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.


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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
31. Good Grief
It provides a framework through which health care costs can be controlled. Through the mandates, the risk associated with health insurance is spread across a wider field, including younger people who on the average experience far fewer health issues. By spreading this risk among the entire populace, you decrease the costs. As anybody involved in business knows, risk assessment is important in determining cost equations. When risk is diluted by spreading risk across a wider field, costs decrease.

By insuring that no less than 80% of the premiums received will be used specifically for claims, this further reduces the overall cost of insurance to the entire pool. I look for this to be expanded to 85% of premiums being required to be paid out as claims. This also insures the insurance companies cannot raise premium rates willy nilly.

For the average person who already has health insurance provided by their employer, the reduced costs will provide a reduced cost of benefit for the employer, thus reducing overall cost of doing business which will allow these companies to grow by expanding their employee base or, if the business is experiencing a downturn, will reduce the need to cut back on staff, thus reducing the risk of unemployment.

Furthermore, this framework can be easily expanded upon via the budget mechanism. Since the Exchange will already be in existence, one need only expand the exchange with some form of public option via a budget item in the future, thus taking power away from reluctant senators and returning that power to the electorate as a whole. Budgets, as we all know, face budget reconciliation as the Senate process, thus abrogating the need to overcome the cloture requirement.

This is similar to how both Social Security and Medicare came into being and were both expanded upon. In fact, both pieces of legislation started out as broader programs that were negotiated down in the Senate, first with Social Security by FRD, second with Medicare by LBJ. The process to achieve each piece of legislation was nearly identical. FDR and LBJ had a higher bar to pass, being 2/3 of the Senate, but FDR had a Democratic Caucus of 70 when social Security was passed (for orphans and widows only to begin with) and LBJ had a scant 67 members of the Democratic Caucus when he was finally able to get Medicare passed, albeit with a lot of concessions to the less progressive members of the caucus at the time.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. It's a nasty job, but somebody had to do it.
:evilgrin:
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. I know... LOL! nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #56
121. But it was very poorly done and easily deflated as an argument.
Got anything else?
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
62. So Medicare started out with retired people forced to buy insurance from Insurance Companies?
And Social Security started out with retired people buying stocks from a broker on Wall Street?

Is that why they want to turn Social Security over to the stock market now... To get back to the way it was?
:shrug:
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. You competely ignored what I posted
but thanks for playing.

:eyes:
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #63
77. You said this bill was like Medicare and Social Security.
I wanted to know when did Medicare and Social Security ever require citizens to purchase anything from a corporation.

So when was it and how did they do it?
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. No, I didn't say that
I said the passage of the bill was similar to the passage of the Social Security and Medicare bills, that both of those have been expanded upon and that this bill provides a foundation for similar expansion.

Read what the fuck I wrote.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. YOU TELL ME..
"I said the passage of the bill was similar to the passage of the Social Security and Medicare bills"

When did Social Security and Medicare EVER require citizens to purchase anything from a private corporation???
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Reading is fundamental
PASSAGE OF THE BILL!

Good grief, take an English course and come back.

:eyes:
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Apparently you cannot comprehend what I asked you.
Let me say it loudly for you to understand...

WHEN DID MEDICARE AND SOCIAL SECURITY EVER REQUIRE CITIZENS TO PURCHASE ANYTHING FROM A PRIVATE CORPORATION???

Do you completely understand the question now?

The reason I asked, is because you are trying to say this is like Medicare and Social Security, but there is one major difference... The U.S. Government did not set up either program through private corporations first. Sure, Republicans and DLCers would like to change to that, but it has not been done to this day. Good thing after the crash last year. Whew! Now, will you please answer the question?
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. No, you did not comprehend what I wrote.
I never said this bill was like Social Security or Medicare. I described the process which opens up further processes. The fact that further processes are available to expand the bill, as was the case with the processes surrounding Social Security and MEdicare, the middle class benefits. You ignored that.

When you learn English, get back to me.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #96
131. You have not answered my rebuttal of your arguments, WeDidIt. You have no business
criticizing anyone else on this thread.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #96
211. "I never said this bill was like Social Security or Medicare"
Yes you did.

Now tell me when did Social Security and Medicare REQUIRE citizens to purchase anything from a private corporation?

You refuse to answer, because it ruins your spin job.

Oh, how's that NAFTA fix coming along in the further processes?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #90
132. Kansas, save your breath. His analogy is so general as to be useless.
WeDidIt is basically saying that any law, once it's passed, can be modified, extended etc. There is no real qualitative comparison here. Any law can be modified, and, as I pointed out to WeDidIT, for good or for ill.

His insults to you are really ironic considering his own inability to understand analogy and how it should be used properly.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #86
135. Your analogy is not working. That is why you are getting the answers you are getting.
Kansas is crediting you with a better argument than what you have.
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #63
293. 'but thanks for playing'
:eyes:
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. Just one question - does it take a lot of effort to pretend to be ignorant?
Or does it expend very little energy in fact?
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
80. This bill requires citizens to purchase something from a private corporation.
How is that like Medicare and Social Security?
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. I've asked people this before when I've been in a good mood...
I just got into a good mood looking at picture of puppies, so I'm going to be kind and ask you.

1) WHY DO YOU EXPECT OBAMA TO FIX DECADES OF DAMAGE WITHIN A FEW MONTHS?

Answer this or I'll just speak to someone else.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. I didn't...
I didn't expect him to cater to Republicans either and crawl in bed with Corporate America. After all, he had a mandate from the American People. Guess the American People just don't matter anymore, huh?
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. I asked you
Why do you fucking expect him to change EVERYTHING REPUKES DID FOR DECADES within a matter of months. I will not repeat or paraphrase the question again. This is the last time. Either you will answer it, or you will be talking to yourself. Take your pick.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. First you have to stop doing what the Republicans did.
Which was putting Corporate America OVER the American People. Nope, after a year, I have seen no evidence of any brakes applying to this Republican policy. Just more of the same. Again, I did not expect everything to change in a year, but a change of direction would have been nice to actually see. Oh, after all, he is the one who campaigned on "change," so the burden of proof is on him.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #99
105. Oh don't you worry about a doggone thing! Soon enough Obama's term will be over
and your efforts will have been very successful. You'll have Sarah Palin back, the rest of the Democrats will call you a F traitor but you'll be very satisfied with yourself. It will be an accomplishment on your part.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. Sarah, this is NON-POLITICAL thread, and you're getting sloppy here.
You have a fact anywhere about the health insurance bill and how it will help the individual American?
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #105
212. Now we know why Obama wasn't concerned about getting re-elected...
Because he knew he was going to throw the American People under the bus.*

*Note: Obama is the one who chose to represent and work for Corporate America OVER the American People, not me, so do not make it about me.

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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #93
200. The Republicans?
Republicans are behind the health insurance reform bills? This is getting awfully confusing. ;)

This bill is one of the first things that can't be laid at the feet of the Republicans in any way. Everyone knew they were going to be worse than useless and could safely be ignored.(Which is a good description of them in general.) This is all our side, for good or ill.
So far it looks like a whole lot of ill with a little good tossed in.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #88
233. Well since you're in a good mood and have gone at least 10 words without
acting like a 3rd grader on the playground I will be happy to answer your question.

Because he can. THe health care bill can be fixed in reconciliation. A non-profit, deficit neutral, medicare buy in for all can be done in reconciliation with only a majority vote because it is an existing program. Only 51 votes needed. No Landrieu, Lieberman, or Nelson. It expands an existing program, premiums would be much less than the for profit insurance companies, high wage earners can pay a bit more to offset the costs for the poor, and it would allow the tea baggers to keep their crappy for profit insurance without having to raise their taxes.

This is an easily achieved workable solution that would please pretty much everyone while pissing off the far right to no end. It's a win win. I'm waiting for it to happen. If it doesn't then we know for sure that the Dems care not a lick for the American people, only for their power and their wealth.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #88
236. Most of us do not expect him to fix it within a few months
We also don't appreciate DEMs on the Hill and in the WH insulting our intelligence by expecting us to swallow this shit as HCR.

And it is very telling of you to be ordering people to answer questions while defending those who won't answer questions.
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #88
294. because he's the president
and he set the timetable
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #294
306. Yup.
,
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #67
235. Ridiculing those who ask legitimate and important questions
is not really an intelligent technique.

But it doesn't take much energy either.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #235
289. Exactly
.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
64. Btw, who wrote that?
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. I did. In response to the OP. n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #70
166. And you clearly did not read the response to it.
Or you would see your post was quite unimpressive.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
75. We Did It: Boiled down, you have one major argument and a lot of hope and faith
Addressing you point by point:

1. THE MANDATES: I understand the math of the mandates well. In fact, NONE of this would work without the mandates. Your first paragraph is old news. And if you look up some of my old posts you will see me explain the mandates in detail, explaining why this bill falls apart without the mandates. What you and I disagree on is how effective these mandates will be in actually controlling insurance rates. At VERY most, I see them slightly slowing the rate of increase, and that depends on how well the Federal Government polices the insurance industry. Considering how much Congress takes from insurance lobbyists, I don't hold out much hope for a good enough policing function to really keep rates reasonable.

2. LIMITATION OF PROFIT MARGIN: the 80% figure is actually something that you're taking on faith right now. And 85% is Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny with a Tooth Fairy chaser. But let's say 80% must be spent on claims by law. Here again, this must adequately policed. I suggest an Inspector General specifically dedicated to "Waste, Fraud and Abuse" in the health insurance sector. Barring that, we have to depend on Congress (see above). I don't hold out much hope. Even in Defense, which is our largest expenditure and in which both civilian and military sectors have investigative arms, there is still huge waste, fraud and abuse throughout the defense industry. Books are cooked and asses are covered. There is no reason why the insurance industry should expect to run differently considering the political infrastructure in Washington.

3. REDUCED COST GOOD FOR COMPANIES: But that was not my question. I wanted to know how the bill would be good for the average individual. According to this bill, small businesses would be exempt from providing coverage and many don't provide any now anyway. However, the employee in a large company who has GOOD insurance (thanks to a union or a generous company) will have the value of that policy TAXED. The employee with good insurance will actually DO WORSE than he is right now, AND he will have to pay extra taxes to cover those who subsidies to buy insurance. Here, many individuals lose big time.

4. NEW INFRASTRUCTURE CAN BE MODIFIED: True enough, but modifications can go all kinds of ways. This is neither a plus nor a minus--merely a neutral result of the law that can be used for good or for ill, depending upon the composition of Congress and the party in the White House.


Your argument about Social Security and Medicare are not holding weight and I'll tell you why. Both programs, despite their "infrastructures", have been under threat for the past 20 years. As I said above, what happens to these programs is not dependent upon the "infrastructure" but dependent upon the make up of Congress and the reigning philosophy in the White House. They can be modified for good OR FOR ILL.

So really when it comes to the average person, you've made one point--lower insurance cost for the individual--which depends almost entirely on Congress's ability to police the industry. Here you and I vehemently disagree: you see hope and rainbows, I see a crooked Congress stuffed to the gills with lobbyists' money.

a.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. If ythe company you work for reduces overall costs with no effort
growth via hiring is possible or maintaining the existing employee base when in a downturn with no layoffs

Your argument that this is not beneficial to the middle class is naive to say the least or completely ignorant to say the most.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. Companies have been reducing overall costs for years due to automation and outsourcing
but those lowered costs have not transferred into more hiring in the US. Why would insurance be any different? My guess is that you have never worked for a major company or have ever run your own business.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. That's where you are wrong
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 10:43 PM by WeDidIt
REduction of costs where no effort is expended to reduce costs always result in attempts at growth, and growth is not possible if the employee base is not expanded.

Reduction of costs where the life of the business is at stake is a completely different story.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #83
92. No, reduced costs DO NOT have to equal increased hiring, and not in the US.
In fact, what usually happens is that a business with more money to burn will buy out other businesses and lay off their workers.

Radio is prime example. In the late 70s, early 80's, automation came into radio. This allowed for a real reduction in costs and a reduction in labor, especially for larger networks. Now, in the 21st century, Clear Channel can own over half the radio stations in a given city, can have the computer program the music, can hire low-paid (often self employed) "voice talent" for announcing, commercials and news duties, and can use this talent across their different stations in the same city.

For Clear Channel, reduced costs meant more money for acquiring other radio stations nationwide. Their employees, who call them "Cheap Channel", comprise a smaller and much lower paid workforce.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #92
98. Reduced costs that come with no effort ALWASY OPEN UP MORE JOBS!
Read what the fuck I said. Don't make shit up, attribute it to me, then try to knock it down. That's called creating a strawman.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. No they don't. Extra money has many places it can go.
Reduce the cost of insurance, and that money can flow other places. Like into coffers, or into more equipment or into corporate acquisitions, or into-if you must have people-call centers in India.

You have a definite "faith" in what businesses "should" do under certain circumstances, but that doesn't mean these businesses will do what you want them to do.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #102
190. and it certainly won't go into higher wages for the existing employees
several studies have been done, one very recently, and employers have blatantly said that any cost savings accruing from lower costs will not go toward wages

but profits, yes!
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #98
201. Really?
So by that logic, all the trade agreements should've had companies beating down doors and begging people to work for them.
Funny how it never turns out that way.

Usually reduced costs result in one of two things: 1) More pocketable money for the higher ups. 2) Acquisition of existing companies. Neither of which is actually growth. Usually #2 causes the exact opposite. The buying company "trims the dead weight" from the company they bought by cutting pay/benefits, layoffs and increased workload per person(salaried jobs), or reduced hours and demanding increased productivity(hourly wages).

Not only do reduced costs not always open more jobs, they only do so under a fairly specific set of circumstances.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #201
258. Bingo.
There's a lot of "faith" out there in people who do not understand how global business works.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #78
118. A propos of your trust of Congress in regard to healthcare:
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/6-lobbyists-buy-congress/

According to a study by The Center for Responsive Politics, special interests paid Washington lobbyists $3.2 billion in 2008—more than any other year on record. This was a 13.7 percent increase from 2007 (which broke the record by 7.7 percent over 2006).

The Center calculates that interest groups spent $17.4 million on lobbying for every day Congress was in session in 2008, or $32,523 per legislator per day. Center director Sheila Krumholz says, “The federal government is handing out billions of dollars by the day, and that translates into job security for lobbyists who can help companies and industries get a piece of the payout.”

Health interests spent more on Federal lobbying than any other economic sector. Their $478.5 million guaranteed the crown for the third year, with the finance, insurance, real estate sector a runner up, spending $453.5 million. The pharmaceutical/health products industry contributed $230.9 million, raising their last eleven-year total to over $1.6 billion. The second-biggest spender among industries in 2008 was electric utilities, which spent $156.7 million on lobbying, followed by insurance, which spent $153.2 million, and oil and gas, which paid lobbyists $133.2 million. Pro-Israel groups, food processing companies, and the oil and gas industry increased their lobbying expenditures the most (as a percentage) between 2007 and 2008.

Finance, insurance and real estate companies have been competing to get a piece of the $700 billion bailout package Congress approved late last year. The companies that reduced lobbying the most are those that declared bankruptcy or were taken over by the federal government and stopped their lobbying operations all together. “Even though some financial, insurance and real estate interests pulled back last year, they still managed to spend more than $450 million as a sector to lobby policymakers. That can buy a lot of influence, and it’s a fraction of what the financial sector is reaping in return through the government’s bailout program,” Krumholz said.

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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #75
362. Nikki, are you against all health care reform?
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 04:48 AM by LiberalAndProud
Waste, fraud and abuse is a concern in a single payer system as well. Government is not immune from such pitfalls.

I have a small company with fewer than 10 employees (all with ownership interest). I consider myself and my coworkers "average" individuals. I will get tax credits to help me purchase health insurance. Right now I can't afford health insurance. This bill helps me directly.

Social Security and Medicare have been under threat for the last 20 years. Why would a single-payer health plan be exempt?

Are you really arguing against any type of reform? Or am I misunderstanding your arguments?
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #75
429. I just have to say
this is a wonderful thread and you write beautifully.


"I see a crooked Congress stuffed to the gills with lobbyists' money."




As opposed to my gutter gal in the street, "Fuck these traitors."

Anyway, I have enjoyed reading. And your patience which I have none of.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
129. Whoop-de-doo, 80 percent will have to paid out in claims
which means that the companies can use 20 percent of compulsory premiums plus government subsidies on anything they damned fell like, such as bonuses for their executives.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #129
148. Or buying more Senators.
Or paying more 'bloggers'.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #148
164. Sigh
...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #31
134. "for orphans and widows only to begin" - the 3rd time this bullshit has appeared. NO, it was NOT.
widows & orphans (survivors' benefits) were added in 1939.

SS began as a RETIREMENT SECURITY program for workers over 65 in all covered occupations, legislated in 1935.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #134
174. .
.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
36. Oh please. Go phone Grover Norquist. He's Hamsher's best pal.
He'll tell you what she thinks.
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t0dd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. What the hell does this thread have to do with Grover Norquist?
Accusing everyone that criticizes the Senate insurance bill of being pro-Norquist really erases what little credibility you had.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Oh please. I love it when Hamsherites come across as if they just appeared online and
were sincere. Give me a break.

Try that elsewhere.

Right now we're watching the Hamsher-Norquist show. It's the same old Naderites accepting GOP money bs but pretending they're libs.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
68. Sort of like House and Senate Dems taking Insurance money
and pretending to be Democrats.

You really don't want to go down this road, even in your ongoing ugly repetitive obsessiveness.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #71
89. I hope you're not driving tonight. n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #71
103. NOT a political thread, Sarah.
Please confine your remarks to actual facts about the mandated insurance.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #103
110. Excuse me while I block you a moment
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #110
115. LOL!
Chickenshit. :D
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
58. That particular record has been skipping all day.
Hopelessly broken, that.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #43
74. Nothing. Sarah has lost it, what little she had.
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 10:41 PM by Forkboy
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
87. Sarah, this is NON-POLITICAL thread, and you're getting sloppy here.
Do you have an actual fact or is this a post-Christmas hangover?
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
85. I take back my earlier figure of 135k dead before the cartel's wet dream comes into existence.
45,000 (2009)+45,000 (2010)+45,000 (2011) +45,000 (2012) +45,000 (2013= TWO HUNDRED TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND dead just from lack of insurance while the repukes stall, the dems are bought off, and any bill that might pass supposedly won't go into effect in general until 2014. that's a lot of average people.

by the way, thanks for this thread--watching the water-carriers for the cartel has really amused my evening.
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GodDamLiberal Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #85
111. That is a bare minimum
Because that 31 million more they like to say will be insured may not happen until 2019 .
They forget to say that.

Effects of Provisions Regarding Insurance Coverage

By 2019, CBO and JCT estimate, the number of nonelderly people who are uninsured would be reduced by about 31 million, leaving about 23 million nonelderly residents uninsured (about one-third of whom would be unauthorized immigrants)
http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=446
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. thank you for that info--even more depressing than I thought.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #111
155. Uh, they're waiting for people to die?
Is that what you're saying?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
94. An observation: the arguments have been weak at best, but the "talking points" have been vehement
At least at this point in the thread.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. After all this, the conclusion is denial n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. Once again, Prononsense, your complete inability to recognize a fact amazes me.
Edited on Sat Dec-26-09 11:13 PM by Nikki Stone1
If I were you, I'd stick to GD: P where you don't have to deal with messy things like facts most of the time. Here in GD, you have to be a little smarter to join the conversation.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. "If I were you, I'd stick to GD: P " Why, afraid that my being here will
force you to wear out your lame "Prononsense" response.

"Here in GD, you have to be a little smarter to join the conversation."

Yeah, it takes a lot of intelligence believe bogus conspiracies and deny facts.


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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. Where does the graph come from? Who put it together? Where did the numbers come from?
You still haven't answered these questions. You've proved you're not smart enough for GD.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. Clue
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. Not an explanation. YOU explain it. Prove you have a brain cell.
And I don't do hotlinks as a rule. EVER. So explain where it came from and what it means.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-26-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. "And I don't do hotlinks as a rule. EVER."
Explains why you have no clue about the bill.

Sorry, you have to go to the link or remain in the dark.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #116
120. You can't explain that chart at all, can you. You have no clue where those numbers come from.
An informed person would have no problem explaining it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. Go back to my original post and figure it out yourself
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 12:13 AM by ProSense
There are plenty of clues in there to trigger thinking on your part.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #122
123. You really don't know.
And that's the long and the short of it.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #123
127. Keep saying that.
I'm not the one searching for an explanation after starting a bogus thread.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #127
128. Where does the graph come from? Who put it together? Where did the numbers come from?
Very simple.

Answer it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #128
130. No, go to the link.
Very simple.

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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #130
133. Princeton
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #133
137. Brigit, I appreciate your one-word answer, but that also tells me very little.
Graphs are meaningless unless the information that goes into them is credible. And yes, even Ivy League institutions have put out non-credible things from time to time.

Do you understand how the graph was put together?
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #137
145. By right clicking the pic itself, and going to Properties, this is able to be seen
http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/hcr_subsidies Following it back this comes forward http://www.princeton.edu The graph was published, it would seem, by no-less than the good offices of Princeton University. Unless we are to conclude that people with strange intent have hacked in and are now publishing data unbeknown-est to Princeton or Krugman - though I find that somehow less likely

So that as a practical matter, unless we are to wake Robert Langdon up at this hour, the matter is:

"Where does the graph come from?" - It would seem that it 'came' from Princeton

"Who put it together?" - It would seem Princeton put it together, and

"Where did the numbers come from?" - It would appear further that 'the numbers' came from Princeton, or they signed off on the scientific sampling process that generated them

Now, I do do this sampling stuff for a living and so I am aware of the ways data can be skewed by manipulation or funding priorities. But what I hear you trying to perhaps determine; is the voracity of the data itself. And for that we need to wake up Paul Krugman in that this graph, with attendant data, was published within the link found in the Properties tab of the pic itself now if that's wrong then it's wrong. But if it is not thus; then we maybe better call Princeton and inform them that their data is found lacking and wantonly so

It is certainly an assumption that Prof. Krugman has reviewed the data and found it complete. Though with his Academic Rep in the balance it would seem that he is aware of the graph and the data and the means by which the data was compiled
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #145
149. Too many "seems" here, one link to the same graph, and one link to Princeton's general website
What I need is REAL information. An academic article from a peer reviewed journal would suffice.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #149
160. Asked & Answered - follow the yellow brick road ~
But that is the part I was referring to. Too many are unable to digest graph or polling data unless & until it matches a preconcieved notion of what the answer should be. And it's pushing all the science, even scientific disciplines able to enhance each other - but too much of it is, and has ala bush/Cheney for the last eight or so: being pushed off the table cause someones used a jpeg of a polar bear and another used a bitmap. And then it gets like all 'X-Files - The Truth Is Out There' time

May take a handful of clicks, but by clicking round to Methodolgy at Princeton University would be able to assist in that process
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #160
163. Brigit, these were not asked and answered. At least not by you.
And before you get all snarky again--and you do that poorly, I might add--I already know where this information comes from and I have known all along. My purpose was to see if the DUers pushing this chart knew the source of the numbers. If you follow the yellow brick road of this thread, you too will find out where the numbers came from.

:)
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #163
171. Pft, please, I defer to the snarky drama Kings & Queens of DU
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #171
172. just know where your numbers come from.
That's all I ask.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #172
224. Fair enough, though it is your presumption your prejudice that I do not already...
And I do think that is part of why nearly every single issue, of a radicalized DU concern: has not prevailed even to your satisfaction. Leaving little else for these-such presumptive, prejudicial DU folks to do but to entrap, deny and cannibalize other DUer's yet DUer's disagree with because *it was their tactics* that produced so little in return to begin with and able to feed into not intellectual dishonesty so much as dogs baying at passing ships with tattooed sails - if it is to the beach you must go, I am able to recommend taking a sweater cause it can be very chilly out there,

"If God himself was interviewed on TMZ saying he likes this bill, I don't give a shit" naw, your intransigence in such matters has been well established by yourself. In the forms of denying all comers in advance, prejudicially; including "God himself"

I think it's clear some people have no business owning guns or driving cars. So it is imo that: it is not up to you to decide who's being snarky and who isn't. Not after tipping every card in your OP by throwing or smearing monkey shit on everybody that does not agree with you coming in. And that is how the left has marginalized itself...out of pride, unbridled ego, and snarky passive aggressive emotionally charged hyperbole enough so that now *I* don't give a shit even if this is a vaunted Nikki Stone1 OP cause it all reeks to High Heaven just the same and that is part of why you have not as yet received the HCR you feel yourself emotionally positioned to accept - you've made it too easy for deal makers to negotiate around your personal, intransigent preferences, but, you know...

Today is another day, and I get to go to the saloon for drinks with some SF pals coming over so have a good one
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #224
244. Because you didn't say so.
Very simple.

Next time, say what you know, and I won't assume ignorance.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #244
355. You've accused Paul Krugman of academic fraud & plagarism...
You've accused Princeton University of being complicit in & with full knowledge of that fraud. You've accused Kaiser-Permanente of generating numbers that you personally disagree with irrespective of whether you comprehend the scientific process which it is my sense now you do not, so that thusly, and as a component of your willful ignorance:

You've accused Paul Krugman, Princeton University, and Kaiser-Permanente of perpetrating a fraud upon the scientific community but operating as a nefarious cabal - specific to any shortcomings able to support you, and the expression of yourself per HCR: from which, even stranger still; you've demanded "REAL" information (as though you were to have understood it if in the event it was presented to you) that is able to justify your argument here and I emphasis - only here! - in your hyperbolic little personally cobbled together OP - like a patch-work of entrapment & snark = congrat'z while taking special heed...

You are just like all the rest :toast:
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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #171
296. 'yellow brick road'
ah, who said that?
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #296
354. Oh yes, that's the one that neither begins nor ends in front of Kaiser-Permanente
The one that people prefer you think it begins & ends in front of
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #354
404. Same Kaiser, same founder, same issues
Yes, the numbers came from Kaiser.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #130
136. Where does the graph come from? Who put it together? Where did the numbers come from?
I can do this all night. :)

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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #136
150. It comes from the insurance giant, Kaiser!
:rofl:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #150
151. .
.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #130
230. Excuse me...
Could you please respond to post #32? I would appreciate your thoughts very much and I thank you in advance.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #128
195. Kaiser. It knows that.
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 05:59 AM by TheWatcher
It tells you all you need to know.

But then again, other than playing with it like a kitten would play with a ball of yarn, I fail to see why anyone on DU gives this creature the time of day.

I mean, come on, if this thing was in High School they would CREATE dubious awards for it.

"Most Likely To Be Ignored."

"Most Likely To Be Paid Astroturf."
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
119. For those who trust Congress to police the insurance industry after the mandate goes through:
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/6-lobbyists-buy-congress/

According to a study by The Center for Responsive Politics, special interests paid Washington lobbyists $3.2 billion in 2008—more than any other year on record. This was a 13.7 percent increase from 2007 (which broke the record by 7.7 percent over 2006).

The Center calculates that interest groups spent $17.4 million on lobbying for every day Congress was in session in 2008, or $32,523 per legislator per day. Center director Sheila Krumholz says, “The federal government is handing out billions of dollars by the day, and that translates into job security for lobbyists who can help companies and industries get a piece of the payout.”

Health interests spent more on Federal lobbying than any other economic sector. Their $478.5 million guaranteed the crown for the third year, with the finance, insurance, real estate sector a runner up, spending $453.5 million. The pharmaceutical/health products industry contributed $230.9 million, raising their last eleven-year total to over $1.6 billion. The second-biggest spender among industries in 2008 was electric utilities, which spent $156.7 million on lobbying, followed by insurance, which spent $153.2 million, and oil and gas, which paid lobbyists $133.2 million. Pro-Israel groups, food processing companies, and the oil and gas industry increased their lobbying expenditures the most (as a percentage) between 2007 and 2008.

Finance, insurance and real estate companies have been competing to get a piece of the $700 billion bailout package Congress approved late last year. The companies that reduced lobbying the most are those that declared bankruptcy or were taken over by the federal government and stopped their lobbying operations all together. “Even though some financial, insurance and real estate interests pulled back last year, they still managed to spend more than $450 million as a sector to lobby policymakers. That can buy a lot of influence, and it’s a fraction of what the financial sector is reaping in return through the government’s bailout program,” Krumholz said....
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liberal_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #119
140. This is what they are doing with our premiums and deductibles
We are paying our premiums and deductible. What are they doing? They deny our medical claims and spend the money on lobbying.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #140
144. Exactly. And that is the problem.
We end up paying for our own indebtedness. And all these "future changes" to the bill that everyone thinks will happen are not going to go the way of the public option: insurance lobbying will see to that.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #119
203. +1
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
139. ...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #139
152. Thanks.
If you notice, ProNonsense has started her own thread instead of answering my very tough questions. Watch her carefully and you'll see why I call her ProNonsense.

:)
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #152
220. thanks for the info--was wondering where the water-carriers were this morning.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #220
292. LOL!
Actually, they are complaining to the mods about me. Many of my posts have been deleted, including one about Obama on another thread. I also got another warning from the mods. The warning seems to be about my snarkiness (not anyone else's of course!) but I think they're really angry at the fact that so many Democrats are against this health insurance bill and I make a convenient punching bag.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #292
340. the silence from the water-carriers (yesterday's, at any rate) has been refreshing.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
183. *sigh* My dear Nikki, you really are missing the point.
No more exclusions for "pre-existing conditions". This alone is worth passing the bill.
No more raising premiums or even dropping insurance completely if you actually get sick. Again, this alone is worth passing the bill.
Restricting profits.
No one can be denied.

Much more. As if the above isn't enough.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #183
192. (sigh) More opinion dressed up as fact.
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 04:48 AM by cornermouse
According to the Office of Actuary, 19 million will not be covered by health insurance in 2019. What do you want to bet the 19 million will be composed of "pre-existing conditions, "denied", and those who were forced to drop insurance that they in good faith tried to get?

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/ActuarialStudies/Downloads/S_PPACA_2009-12-10.pdf
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #192
378. Because denial for pre-existing conditions is expressly forbidden.
The 19 million will be those who choose to pay fines rather than buy insurance and those who are exempt. Which is why they are increasing funding for Community Health Centers.
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #183
202. While that may be the case.
"No more exclusions for "pre-existing conditions". This alone is worth passing the bill.
No more raising premiums or even dropping insurance completely if you actually get sick. Again, this alone is worth passing the bill."

There's nothing to prevent them dropping you for lying on forms in anything I've seen.
So, they'll just take your money under a mandate until you happen to get sick enough to need serious care, then they'll dump you because you forgot to list that time you got an antibiotic for impetigo when you were 9 or the acne medication you took when you were 14. You know, exactly what they're doing now to get rid of people that are costing them money.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #183
228. How much is the "pre-existing conditions" insurance going to cost?
How many NON-existent jobs will I have to work, just to be able to afford it?

So the Insurance Industry gets a law saying that they can keep getting the same profits they are getting now?
But isn't that why we needed real reform in the first place, because they screwed over so many people for the sake of their profits?
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #228
380. The premiums will be the same, whether you have pre-existing conditions
or not. Read the bill.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #183
261. My dear johnaries: who is going to police all this and make sure it happens?
Congress? An overworked underfunded FDA or HHS? Who is going to check and make sure that a recission on the part of an insurance company is not actually a cover for dropping a sick person?

Who is going to audit the books and make sure that profit stays at 20%?

Where is the governmental infrastructure for overseeing the industry?
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #261
377. Read the bill.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #377
388. LOL, it leave it up to states; CA had to drop its suits againt Anthem, too $$$ and took too long
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #388
389. Actually, no. But thanks for playing.
This just proves that many people who keep arguing against the bill don't have a clue what's actually in it.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #389
392. actually yes---
it leaves policing the corporations up to the states

CA found it impossible to police.....to wit the example of Anthem...

try reading the bill....how will it police the corps?
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #392
393. The Sec of HHS is responsible for setting up
the review and police process, but has to do it in conjunction with the States and provide a reporting process for the States:

SEC. 2794. ENSURING THAT CONSUMERS GET VALUE FOR THEIR DOLLARS.

`(a) Initial Premium Review Process-

`(1) IN GENERAL- The Secretary, in conjunction with States, shall establish a process for the annual review, beginning with the 2010 plan year and subject to subsection (b)(2)(A), of unreasonable increases in premiums for health insurance coverage.

`(2) JUSTIFICATION AND DISCLOSURE- The process established under paragraph (1) shall require health insurance issuers to submit to the Secretary and the relevant State a justification for an unreasonable premium increase prior to the implementation of the increase. Such issuers shall prominently post such information on their Internet websites. The Secretary shall ensure the public disclosure of information on such increases and justifications for all health insurance issuers.

`(b) Continuing Premium Review Process-

`(1) INFORMING SECRETARY OF PREMIUM INCREASE PATTERNS- As a condition of receiving a grant under subsection (c)(1), a State, through its Commissioner of Insurance, shall--
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #393
397. Exactly! It is up to each state! But the states cannot accomplish this!
Take California, for example.....

they sued Anthem Blue Cross b/c it rescinded the insurance policies of many people....for "fraud" which is the loophole which will allow insuers to still drop people......

guess what? the state of CA had to drop its lawsuits against Anthem, which is more funded than the state.....

the court cases simply were too expensive for the state, and too time consuming....

bottom line: it's a joke to leave the policing to the states

which is why......

this current HCR bill is a joke!

for that and many reasons
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #397
405. Excellent point. States do not have the resources to police a national industry
Excellent.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #405
428. +100 and California is but one example---it was way out-spent by the super-rich insur corporations
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
185. What's an "Average American"?
You're playing around with a very unspecific term. Are you talking about the average college student, the average working mother, the average middle class household, the average retiree, etc.?

It helps the Average American college or grad student by making it possible for them to stay on their parent's insurance until they are 27. It provides them with subsidies if they are having trouble affording insurance on their own.

It helps the Average American that goes to the emergency room by providing seeing that almost everyone has insurance and can go to the doctor for regular visits instead of waiting for something catastrophic.

It helps lower the Average American's medical bills by insuring almost everyone so that the cost of unpaid medical bills aren't passed on to other customers.

It helps Average Americans that have had health problems in the past not have their medical treatment denied because of pre-existing conditions.

Most of the other ways it helps "Average American" have been listed upthread. But, as usual, facts won't sway anyone with a vested interest in being unconvinced.

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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #185
191. One word barrier to actually seeing a doctor or going to the hospital.
Co-pay. It does no good to make mandatory healthcare payments if you don't have enough left over to make the co-payment.
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #191
376. I have a 20% co-pay now and I have never been asked to pay the
co-pay at the time I seek service. I show my insurance card and 60-90 days later I get a bill showing what my insurance paid and what I owe. My hospital bill was stamped "If you bill is over $500 please call this number to arrange time payments". I'll make my final payment on a July procedure in February. The hospital gave me the option of taking up to a year to pay off the bill. I chose to pay it off over 4 months.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:23 AM
Response to Original message
189. OMG, this thread is absolutely hilarious!

:D

thanks, Nikki! :thumbsup:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #189
262. Glad you're enjoying yourself.:)
Someone should. :)
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KrR Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
204. What do GLBT rights do for the average American? n/t
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #204
215. only the notion that we are only as free as the least protected amoung us.
but I think your point was slightly different, yes?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #215
263. Excellent answer. But GLBT rights does not require 15-20% of my income by law.
So even if I weren't the incredibly ardent supporter that I am of gay rights, I wouldn't have to worry that it would bankrupt me.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
205. To be honest with you, I have only seen maybe 1 or 2 supporters of the bills on here
who can post without insulting and name calling or using some snide rudeness.

I think most of them just enjoy beating down the masses and talking to us like we are subhuman.

One or two might actually talk to you like you are a human being. I wish you the best of luck finding them.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #205
264. There were a couple, Jamastiene, and I made sure to thank them.
But I think the reason the rest of them are so nasty is that they are defending something that is really indefensible, at least to the average person.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
206. ....
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invictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
209. K&R
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
213. My Senator read the bill and he summed it up like this:
This bill ends:
Predatory tactics by insurance companies
Denial or restricting of coverage based on pre-existing conditions
Annual and lifetime limits on coverage

This bill guarantees:
Consumer access to the health insurance plan of their choice
The right to renew that plan, and the ability to shop for the best coverage that meets their needs.
Federal assistance will be available for individuals and families up to 400 percent of poverty, and small businesses to help pay for health insurance.

And most importantly, the cost of INaction is too high.

His full statement here:
http://feingold.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=321133
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #213
234. With all due respect to Sen. Feingold
This bill ends:
Predatory tactics by insurance companies - Doubt it

Denial or restricting of coverage based on pre-existing conditions - But they can rescind you for "fraud or misrepresentation" and the bill doesn't specify what constitutes that. So if you forget to tell them about the kidney stones you had in 1987 they can drop you. The bill also doesn't specify what can be considered preexisting conditions for the purpose of rating premiums for them.

Annual and lifetime limits on coverage - I thought they were put back in? If they were stripped back out, that's a good thing,

This bill guarantees:

Consumer access to the health insurance plan of their choice - Only people who don't get coverage through work will be able to choose a plan. If your employer provides insurance and you don't like it, too bad.

The right to renew that plan, and the ability to shop for the best coverage that meets their needs. - Again, only the small percentage of Americans who qualify to participate in the exchange will be able to do that.

Federal assistance will be available for individuals and families up to 400 percent of poverty, and small businesses to help pay for health insurance. - Makes it slightly less regressive but people making $44K and above will get no subsidies and people making $33K a year will only get a small percentage of their premium subsidized. The poorest Americans (133% and below FPL) are going to be put on Medicaid - which is a good thing but it's 14 million of the 30 million we keep hearing about.

And most importantly, the cost of INaction is too high. - Same mushroom cloud nonsense we heard in the run-up to the IWR. The only reason this has to be passed RIGHT NOW is political - the Dems want a "win".
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #234
239. You bring up good points and I will ask Senator Feingold to address them.
He actually emails his constituents back. :)
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #239
240. Thank you and please ask him about the preexisting conditions and fraud clause
:)
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #240
242. I sent you a PM with the text of what I sent.
If you'd like, when I get a reply, I can start an OP "Senator Feingold addresses Hello_Kitty's concerns".

:D
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #240
327. And who is going to police them.
And what "infrastructure" is in place to make the insurance companies keep their end of the bargain.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #213
266. Thank you for your post.
I take issue with two things. First, the cost of inaction is actually NOT higher if this bill ends up being the wrong solution. In that case, it would be better to leave things as awful as they are.

Second, my main issue is with policing the insurance companies, making sure they follow their end of the bargain. WE will be policed through our Federal Tax returns. If we don't have insurance, we will HAVE to pay a fine. But, there is no independent Federal infrastructure for policing the insurance industry. There is no Inspector General whose job it will be to actually investigate Waste, Fraud and Abuse in the insurance industry. It is possible, for example, for the insurance companies to use the practice of recission (which is NOT prevented by this bill) as a cover for getting rid of sick people. These people will be dumped (if they're lucky) in a high risk pool whose quality of medical care is not clear at the moment.

If Russ were my Senator (and I like Feingold in general), I would call him and ask which agency of the Federal Government has been tasked with the job of policing the insurance industry, and ask which Inspector General's office would be responsible for investigating Waste, Fraud and Abuse. I would also ask if Congress (both houses) would be willing to have members taking money from the insurance industry RECUSE themselves in any hearings on waste, fraud and abuse in the insurance industry.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #266
318. Grandstanding?
All I did was post what my Senator, who read the bill said were the good points in the bill. I haven't read it, and I trust Feingold a great deal. Hello_Kitty voiced some very valid concerns as do you. I contacted Senator Feingold and hope to get some clarification on some of this.

I don't know why you jumped down my throat when I didn't reply right away. I was cooking and cleaning and well... living my life.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #318
326. This is not an answer to the post.
But I'm not surprised.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #326
328. ?
I don't understand the snark in your posts. I don't ever recall there being "bad blood" between us. In fact, you and I have seen eye-to-eye in the past on issues such as abortion rights.

I know that you're very passionate about HCR; perhaps as passionate as you (and I) are about abortion rights. I am rather cautious on this topic and would like to see what happens with the bill in the Senate.

I conceded that you make very good points and that I will ask my Senator about the issues you've raised. I am not gung-ho behind this and I am not vehemently against it. I am trying to be open-minded and really confused by your snark at me.

I can't answer, rebut or confirm the points you've made and I am trying to understand this very large thing and all aspects of it.

So, I guess I am just asking you to please not use the snark on me. I don't think it's necessary.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #213
313. I responded to you. How about you do me the same courtesy?
Or were you just using my thread to grandstand?
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #313
316. That was rude.
I... um.... have a life and am not glued to your thread 24/7.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #316
323. That was not rude. That was a request.
So how about a response.
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #323
324. .
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
214. ....
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
218. Nikki, just read this - thank you for the thread and
for engaging with the couple of spamming posters who try to shout down anyone who dissents from their corporate tap dance...good reading.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #218
268. You're welcome.
It's interesting how they are allowed to spam like this and their threads are never locked, no matter how vicious they get.
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blueworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
223. If I had a million bucks I'd mail you a large check...
But between bailouts, unemployment, COBRA premiums etc. the best I can offer is my TRUE appreciation & I'll be watching this thread for even the slightest rational response with examples.

I'm not a brain trust, as I've proven repeatedly, but all the hee-hawing about how "this bill" will help more people get insurance and is "a compromise" defies logic in my universe.

There is no bloody bill yet, so how do these geniuses KNOW who can be helped & how? What is this statement based on? Plus whatever abomination of a reform bill is passed, it won't kick in for 3 more years. Which one of the NYT psychics can tell us what our financial situations will be at that time, especially while insurance companies can raise premiums etc.? I'm watching - thanks again.
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blueworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #223
229. And why didn't the bailout take 3 years? n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #223
246. The only way the NYTimes psychics would know anything is
if they had a lot of inside information and knew when the next financial hit was planned to be.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
225. K & R
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
226. Awesome Thread, Nikki
Of course some had to come in and make it all about you, and Hamsher, et al ...
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #226
314. Thanks.
And the trolls will always be there.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
241. without the infrastructure to support it, there can't be universal health care
We are in a situation of very high demand and limited supply. The inclusion of thousands of Community Health Centers to be built, and additional grants and loans to train medical staff, helps fill that infrastructure.

You could shove single payer down the rethugs throats...that still wouldn't fill the need for doctors, nurses and other medical staff required to make universal health care possible. There is a worldwide shortage of medical staff. That is a fact. Train more providers, and make their training more affordable, and that portion of health care costs will come down.

By creating this additional infrastructure -- and making it a *public* infrastructure, the groundwork for single payer will be set.

I don't have health insurance right now. I haven't had it for most of my adult life. When I did have it and got seriously ill, they left me to die anyway. So with or without health insurance, I've *always* paid for my health care out of pocket.

I plan to opt out and pay the penalty. And use the Community Health Center near me. I recommend anybody who has good underlying health consider doing the same.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #241
245. The word "infrastructure" seems to be a talking point this weekend.
Would you suggest we create an "infrastructure" for Wall Street, since they have been having a lot of problems too? Remember, they can bring down the economy in its entirety. Then everyone would be poor and starving except the very rich. Should we create a permanent bailout infrastructure?
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #245
267. huh? what does the shortage of medical staff have to do with wall street?
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 04:28 PM by northernlights
:wtf: There is a worldwide shortage of medical staff. If we are to have universal health care, then we need more medical staff. Period. There are doctors working 7 days/week in Massachusetts as a result of universal health care. Do you propose enslaving doctors, nurses and other providers and forcing them to work, say, 18 hours/day, 7 days per week in order to provide universal health care?

I'm in favor of universal health care and I'm in favor of single payer. But I also recognize that mandating single payer will not create one additional doctor, nurse, lab technician, radiologist, sonographer, or any other person capable of actually *delivering* on it.

By creating the infrastructure needed to support universal health care -- and doing so under the *public* umbrella -- we move that much closer to single payer.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #267
269. What does the shortage of medical staff have to do with this bill?
I see no provisions for paying for medical school so more people can become doctors. Not sure where you're going with this.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #269
278. Bernie Sander's amendment
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 04:51 PM by northernlights
according to his press announcement, it's $10B to build thousands of Community Health Centers and increase grants and student loans to train doctors, nurses, physician's assistants, etc. And also according to his announcement, it's expected to be increased to $14B in reconciliation.

I had also read somewhere on DU that the centers would also provide teaching centers for medical staff. A major bottleneck to training is shortage of clinical opportunities. Universities can easily increase the number of students in lectures. But the clinical training is what limits the graduation. I'm one of 15 applicants -- out of 30 -- accepted in my universities MLT program. The other 15 are waitlisted and will join even more applying to start next year. There is a 2 year backlog of waitlisted nursing and MLT students.

And I'm one of several who has just had student loans cut off so may not be able to finish. Increased funding may make the difference.

The bottom line, to me at least, is this. While all of us were fighting for "single payer" and "extending medicare," we kept the insurance industry distracted enough for them to not notice or interfere with something that will go a *long* way to actually providing universal health care and single payer, albeit most likely by some other name. ;) I see it as an opportunity to starve the beast.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #278
286. Does it seem odd to you that this bill is willing to pay $$ for everything but actual health care?
Sanders' very fine suggestions could have been passed in another bill. However, I hope this part of the bill does help you, if it survives. Remember, though, that others will thrown into poverty by this bill and that Wall Street will be enriched.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #286
300. it does pay for health care
Community Health Centers provide low cost, government subsidized health care.

There is nothing that says that the insurance industry will automatically pick up 45 million new "customers." Already uninsured people like me will have the option of paying the "penalty." A tax, by any other name. And getting lower cost health care than in the private market.

People who are healthy and have insurance will have the option of quitting the jobs they hate but stay at for fear of losing insurance...and then go for the job they really want (or start their own business) and pay the penalty and get lower cost health care than in the private market.

Even if we had won single payer, we still would have been years away from having the staff and medical infrastructure to actually deliver it. This puts the staff and medical infrastructure in place...and can start to draw off "customers" (or prisoners) of the insurance industry until we have de-facto single-payer.

I can even imagine a scenario in which the insurance industry ends up stuck with *only* the uber-wealthy and the sickest people who can't afford to let go of their insurance.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #300
310. If this amendment stays, this bill will pay for a tiny sliver of actual healthcare, maybe
The rest of it goes to insurance companies.

Curious though, would you really pay the penalty and not have insurance? And since you are in healthcare, let me ask how you think the emergency room personnel would treat the uninsured, since they would now be uninsured by choice because this bill mandates having insurance.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #310
319. I would expect emergency personnel to treat me the same way they did the last time I was there
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 06:47 PM by northernlights
some 10 years ago. I pulled out my credit card; they swiped it. Doctor was so busy yelling at me to quit riding horses he missed my fractured sternum and sent me home without even a pain killer, but that was because he was mad at his wife who won't give up riding horses. So I took children's tylenol. And when I went to a regular doctor several years before that, she charged me $70 to scream at me that there was nothing wrong with me and she had sick people to treat. So I went to a regular doctor who was also an Ayurvedic doctor and worked for the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi when he had a center in Lancaster, Mass. He was Deepak Chopra's replacement there and the same doctor that saw George Harrison and Liz Taylor spent an hour+ with me taking my history, examining me (30 minute pulse in Ayurvedic), ran the necessary lab tests...for the same $$ as the bitch that screamed at me for 15 minutes and threw me out.

Actually, many medical people I know do not have health insurance. That would include my anatomy/physiology professor who says she can't afford it. She's Director of Training at a local hospital and has her masters in nursing ed from Yale. There are also students a year ahead of me who are already working in healthcare and do not have and refuse to get health insurance. One of them said he's yet even to sign a waiver -- he refuses and they look the other way.

The bill mandates insurance if you can afford it or if your employer offers it. As a part-time student and part-time employee with very low income, I can't afford it. Hopefully by the time it goes into place, I'll be working per diem.

And I seriously avoid the emergency room, anyway. Last year I broke a rib. Been there; done that. Nothing they can do anyway, so I took aspirin and toughed it out. This year I had maldigestion, steatorrhea, floating poo, and felt firm sore area a little below my right ribs. Diagnosed either pancreatic cancer, in which case I'm dead with or without insurance, or gallstone or inflammatory bowel. Took curcurmin (anti-inflammatory that increases the solubility of bile thereby dissolving gallstones) and papaya/pineapple extract (naturally occuring digestive enzymes). Voila. Problem gone.

I also had flu symptoms before the official flu season, so probably swine flu. Could have gone to the emergency room I suppose. They would have prescribed rest and fluids, but wouldn't have given me tamiflu because I'm in too good of shape. Instead, I prescribed rest, fluids and Sambucol (proprietary extract of elderberry proven effective against multiple strains of flu). Voila. Problem gone in 24 hours.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #319
325. Wow. What a post!
It confirms my suspicions that the uninsured are treated like crap now--after this bill they will be seen as deadbeats.

How are you medicating yourself? The extracts and things you mention are natural.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #325
330. It's no different than when I had insurance
I lost 20% of my body weight (from 104 pounds to 84), had a recurring lump under my armpit (lymphoma anyone?), severe insomnia, blurred vision, and more... and the Harvard Health insurance doctor told me it was "all in my head" and prescribed sleeping pills. Luckily, I was due for x-rays at my dentist, where he found 3 badly impacted wisdom teeth. Septicemia and I could have died at any time. Dentist put me on antibiotics for several weeks before removing the teeth...saved my life.

As I told my program director, it won't happen again because the *next* time I'm that sick, I'll be able to do my own CBC. I already know how...just need to learn phlebotomy now and I'm set. Once I sell my house, I'll probably invest in a 'scope and some basic equipment. Doesn't take a lot.

My personal interest is in phytochemistry. Most modern medicines are based on phytochemistry. But whereas modern medicine treats you with one or two chemical compounds, plants may have dozens or hundreds of compounds interacting.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #330
349. Where do you learn to do what you do?
Schools? Books?
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #349
374. yes nt
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
252. Wow! How do you expect people to discuss this without
political ramifications being considered? It is a policy issue and by its nature political.

The argument that we "have to be willing to lose the battle" is ridiculous. I support that we have some legislation in place and do not support all aspects of it. We have been losing the battle for 70 years in health care and will continue to lose it if the right is successful in making political hay by using the left to do it for them. I refuse to be part of a "progressive" whatever just because it is anti-whatever if it means becoming a tool of the status quo and leads to no movement forward.

I do support getting legislation in place and spending time to add to it and make adjustments.

Now if that means I'm somehow just now sanctified enough to be considered a "progressive" whatever, so be it. I do know I have watched too many of my family and friends go without healthcare, and this will continue to happen on a larger scale as we go into the future if we do not have anything to work with. Do you honestly think that tearing down a foundation for the future will ensure that Rs will not keep it buried by the time you have decimated the Democratic party without building it? Do you think that the majority of Americans after 30 years of being steeped in RW media and ideology will suddenly adopt every liberal stand that some are demanding? That it incredibly naive, almost magical, thinking.

I want to get something to build on and something that alleviates the disasterous health consequences for as many as possible as soon as possible. If the status quo is maintained, fewer and fewer will have access to healthcare, affordable or otherwise.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #252
271. The ramifications for people will be economic, not political.
You can't eat policy decisions. You can be impoverished by them.

The average person is not going to give a rat's ass about policy. The average person wants medical care without being forced into a system that claims more and more of their paycheck.

The fact that you can't see beyond the politics is a problem.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #271
290. I believe I said that. And I said that
the political decision to "kill the bill" will have severe economic ramifications for people far into the future as well. These are not mutually exclusive topics.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #290
297. No, you actually said there was no way to separate politics from the bill, and I said
that there had to be, especially for those of us who are worried about Americans being driven into poverty. I frankly wouldn't care who was pushing this bill and for what political agenda: I'd be against it on economic grounds.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #297
299. Read what I said again, please.
THere will be economic ramifications for people without the bill. More and more people will not be able to afford either insurance premiums or out of pocket health care costs AND they will be excluded from insurance pools with impunity. How does that help them?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #299
302. You need to read what you said, again. You said you can't separate politics from it.
I don't have a problem with that, but this thread wasn't about politics. It was about seeing if people had any clue what the bill(s) would do the average American. I see impoverishment ahead for a lot of people. I hope to God I am wrong.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #299
364. At which point the predatory monopoly would die under it's own weight
plausibly saving more lives in the long run than any sacrificed now. If this is going to break down into a pure numbers game then the numbers game rules apply across the board.

What happens if the system breaks down is we will literally be forced to deal aggressively with the problem.

Its almost like some people would spend a trillion dollars to get even one person insurance and could give a shit if they could afford to use it. This logic does not work real well, you start out willing to do anything at any cost to get ANY amount crumbs and spend the whole process negotiating with yourself until you've given the opposition enough pounds of flesh to grant you a boon.

This mentality has precious little choice than to result in a lot of costs for as little as possible in return.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #364
372. Will it die under its own wait in this era of "too big to lose?"
And so, we are going to engage in human sacrifice, too? How enlightened and civilized. That argument is just as disgusting as anything the RW could come up with.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #372
399. This bill enshrines big insurance as too big to fail. If they have no customers
or intervention then what will be their purpose?

I fail to see the difference between saving lives now to sacrifice more later and sacrificing lives now to save more later on the humanity meter. Why are lives 3 years from now more valuable than lives 10 years from now, especially if that number of future lives saved and given greater quality is significantly higher?

I'm for doing the most good possible and don't see this bill doing much good and potentially lots of harm without means of serious correction.

Its lame for you to dig human sacrifice out of your ass. You see 31 million saved, I see 31 million with coverage and only half of them having access as well as more and more people with coverage also not being able to afford it which means even more lives lost. I don't get why your group is more valuable than the one I imagine.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
265. I don't know what an average American is, but...
The HCR bill removes annual and lifetime benefit payouts, removes preexisting condition rejections, offers subsidies, increases the amount of money insurance companies must spend on health care payouts, and increases the number of people who qualify for medicaid.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #265
272. How about recission?
And how about policing the insurance industry? Who will do that?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #272
275. Recission of what?
The government will police the insurance industry.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #275
279. You don't know enough about recission then.
You need to look it up.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #279
282. No, you are avoiding my original answer.
Edited on Sun Dec-27-09 05:14 PM by ZombieHorde
I answered your OP. If you have a problem with my answer, then address it directly.

edit to make my post less icky
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #282
288. Tell me about recission and why I brought it up.
There's good reason for it. And an honest one.

What you're upset about is that I didn't say "Oh, of course! You win!" to your list of items. I pointed out two important loopholes that could make these items meaningless. Those items are words on paper, and at the moment, they have no real teeth. Recission is part of that. The health insurance industry uses recission to get people off the books. The fact that Congress did not prohibit recission is a huge concern. It means that people with pre-existing conditions and who are too expensive to maintain can still be dropped from service through recission. It's a back door to the same abuses.

If you had read up on the healthcare stuff instead of assuming that TV was giving you the full story, you would know this. Honestly.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #288
298. "What you're upset about is that I didn't say "Oh, of course! You win!" to your list of items."
This is not true, I was "upset" because you were not being direct. You are being direct now, and I thank you for that.

"I pointed out two important loopholes that could make these items meaningless. Those items are words on paper, and at the moment, they have no real teeth."

The two points you mentioned do not touch the expansion of medicaid, but I do see how they could effect my other points. Whether or not the bill will actually be policed, we will have to wait and see.

"instead of assuming that TV was giving you the full story"

I don't watch TV news.

President Obama has addressed health insurance rescissions just a few days ago. The rescission ban may not be a part of the HCR bill, but it is being addressed.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/obama-phones-ted-kennedys-widow-and-others-after-senate-health-care-passage.php


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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #298
303. I've been direct the whole time. I think what you mean is that I spoon fed you this time
and explained everything to you that you should already know if you're going to debate this issue. If you come unprepared for a debate, don't be surprised if you get confused.

And I think you were upset, but I'll let that pass since I can't know for sure.

Now, let's get back to recission:

The "discussion" you're referring to and linking to is by people on an internet message board, not by members of Congress or by anyone else with power to do anything. That's meaningless.

Recission is the backdoor escape for the insurance industry. Suing the government for more profit is the front door--Wellpoint is suing the state of Maine right now for more profits. Add this to the lack of real policing of the industry and you have a situation where our insurance premiums will continue to go up (a little more slowly than now because of the MANDATE), and eventually, we'll be back in a situation where people can't afford health insurance but are forced BY LAW to buy it. We will also have people dropped through recission and dumped into a "High Risk Pool" that will get larger and larger but probably have caps on its funding to keep costs down, resulting in very poor care for lots of high risk people.

You have to look beyond this very minute and see where the mechanism being put in place will lead. Most people aren't doing that, but those that are will cringe at what is coming.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #303
356. How do you interpret this quote from the link?
"The President told Mr. Turner that stories like his motivate him every day to keep working on health insurance reform, and he assured Mr. Turner that he will continue to work to pass health legislation to ban rescission and other abusive practices."
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #275
291. "the government will police the insurance industry"??? what on earth are you on, because you
cannot possibly be serious--the government is in the back pocket of the murderous insurance cartel.

I must say, though, thanks for the laugh--just glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read your comment.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #291
301. Both my wife and I have worked for the government and we were not in the pockets of
the health insurance companies.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #301
315. You ran for office?
That would be why you needed the money from the insurance companies.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #301
337. were you in office? were you in any agency that would, according to you, be charged with overseeing
the murderous insurance cartel? you know, the one that is paying over 1.5 MILLION a day in lobbying, and untold millions to our supposed employees, the members of congress and the senate? THAT insurance cartel? THAT government?

again, thanks for all the laughs today, and so glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read your posts.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #337
350. No answer.
Hmmmm
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #350
358. I just got back. WTF? I am not at my computer all day.
If you are at your computer all day, I am sorry.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #350
360. Holy shit! You have not replied yet!!!! What the fuck is going on around here!!! Aaaahhhhh!!!! nt
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #350
361. Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! No reply yet. What will I do without my Nikki Stone1!!!! Noooo! nt
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #337
359. No and Yes.
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 04:53 AM by ZombieHorde
THAT insurance cartel? = No.

THAT government? = Yes.

You are right I was not in a position to take bribes, but you did just say, "government," and we only have one government.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #359
395. What department did you work in and what was your GS level?
That will give me some idea of how much importance your position would have to insurance industry policy.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #395
396. Why do you need "some idea" about me?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #396
400. Because you offered yourself up as someone "in government" who doesn't take bribes
This, in your mind, is an argument against the idea that Congress wouldn't be able to police the insurance industry properly by taking money from them. The only way I can tell if your own situation is comparable in any way to Congress is to find out how high a level you reached in government and how much responsibility you had.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #396
403. .
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #396
415. .
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #396
427. .
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #396
440. .
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #396
448. .
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #396
450. .
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #396
451. .
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #396
453. .
.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #396
461. .
.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #461
462. We were both congressman. nt
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #272
312. Both house and senate bills ban recission. In the Senate bill
enforcement is left to the states. Recission is already illegal in my state and enforcement by state insurance commissioner is prompt. There are quite a few large insurance companies that cannot do business in WA state because they refuse to comply with state regs.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #312
317. How about a link to that.
.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #272
336. You ask what's good for the average american in this bill
And when they answer, you change the topic.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #336
351. No, when they answer, I point out the loopholes in their answer.
It's those loopholes that will impoverish the average person.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
273. This got way more attention than it deserved. n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #273
274. Actually, if people had answered the OP simply and without snark, the thread would have been
very short. :)

Thanks for adding onto it. :)
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #273
329. Nah, just got more than the advocates without answers would prefer
:rofl:
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #273
339. including your response?
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
308. It limits the age surcharge. Since many who purchase their own
insurance are over 50 and now pay 7-10 times what a 25 yr old buying in the individual market does, the 3:1 limit will mean a substantial savings on premiums paid.

Eliminating the ban on pre-existing conditions will impact substantial numbers of average Americans.

The expansion of Medicaid will provide health coverage to the very poor uninsured (more thaan 75% of those we serve in our parish free clinic will now be eligible for Medicaid)

Seniors or disabled on Medicare with high drug costs will benefit from the closure/partial closure of the donut hole in part D coverage.

Under the Senate version only those with lousy employer coverage could opt out of the group coverage and use the subsidy to buy individual coverage.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #308
320. Older people will still continue to pay more
In addition, the specific numbers will change in the future with political pressure. I don't make the mistake of thinking that the numbers in the bill today will remain unaltered. If anything, the insurance industry will have more of our money to lobby Congress with. We know how the energy lobbyists got the Bush administration to alter environmental law: the so-called "Clear Skies Act" which dirtied the skies. I am assuming the same quid pro quo for the insurance companies. The numbers today are there to pass the bill and make it somewhat palatable to progressives. These will change once the system is in place and the lobbying goes into overdrive.

Now in regard to Medicaid, that sounds very nice, but that was something that could have been done without a major overhaul. It will also cost money, which makes me wonder about the "bill paying for itself" as we were told it had to.

The Medicare alterations are accompanied by a steep Medicare CUT, allegedly of "wasteful" spending. Medicare pays out very low reimbursements as it is and cuts are not going to help.

The donut hole was created by Congress and could have been closed without this bill.

All the smaller alterations could have been handled without this extremely large bill with its problematic mandate.


My big question has not been answered however: who will police this? Seriously. And what kind of budget will they be getting to do it?
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #320
366. The same mostly ineffective and bought and paid for folks that are supposed to leash the dogs now
How would you like the likes of Ben Nelson holding big insurance accountable? Hopefully a lot because like minded folks will be charged with watching the henhouse.

If that doesn't create some level of real concern then what will? Everything this bill does greatly depends on the same very broken parts we have today.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #366
384. "Everything this bill does greatly depends on the same very broken parts we have today." BRAVO!
:thumbsup:
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
343. ...
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-27-09 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
348. Great Thread, Nikki Stone1!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
365. "No politics"? right. all disagreement with you all is dismissed
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 05:19 AM by nofurylike
as "smearing anyone who doesn't agree with you... "

to reply a tiny bit, hoping you will seriously consider what i say:

the entire country is paying for every time uninsured people are going to the emergency room for care they can't get otherwise, at total, and skyrocketing costs far exceeding what HCR will cost, over time. unless YOU all would like to force the uninsured to sign waivers promising they will not rush to ERs when they or their children break limbs, or are suffocating or poisoned, or... and so on, this is going to save you and everyone else money. not to mention caring about other humans being able to be saved from unnecessary death.

those who really can't afford it - versus those who simply *DO NOT WANT TO* HELP THOSE WHO CANNOT TO AFFORD IT - will be given the means TO afford it.

it also is going to save the now insured money on your own premiums. a lot.

*

to be outraged by people coming on this board and aggressively fighting for alliances with norquist and teabaggers, is fair and sane. for that mob to speak shockingly viciously of those who are outraged, is equivalent to shouting down a woman who doesn't want her abuser invited to her battered women's support group. norquist and teabaggers are our, and hundreds of millions', abusers. period.

i was willing to try. i hope you will try to understand.


peace
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #365
382. I've kept to my promise of not getting into politics.
What I will not do is allow people to not THINK IT THROUGH economically. You're mad because I won't let people feel good. I insist that you look at the consequences, and so far, NO ONE has had an answer to the biggest problem: how will this be policed and by whom? There are NO protections against being gouged on the long term. That's the big economic issue. I'm sorry if I'm not letting you go to your happy place, but this bill will economically gut the working and middle classes. And I'm not letting people forget that.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
371. have you ever put this much time into helping people understand
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 05:54 AM by nofurylike
that it is their responsibility to vote their will with their representatives? - and helping them do so?

have you ever put this much time into writing all those facts you know so well to reps and sens and as LTTEs? educating those people we NEED to understand all that, in order to take HCR further into far more ideal structures? - like single-payer that would become the HC system if even the tiniest percentage of the 80% who want it had actively voted with their representatives? - or even knew that we have a responsibility TO vote with our sens and reps?

how many on your side in this have done those things, do you think?


aside:
were you in columbus ohio in 2004?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #371
383. Yes, I have.
And I don't give out personal information.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #383
442. Ironic, since you were asking for someone else's personal info in post #395.
:rofl:
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
373. ....
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
375. Insurance companies can no longer rescind my coverage if I become sick.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #375
381. Unless you become too ill and then you'll go into the "High Risk Pool" which
the government will fund, and probably poorly, if the current desire to take medical care off the books continues as the trend. In the meantime, the health insurance company will insure you but at what cost? There are no dollar limits on what they can charge you in this bill, and no limits on what they can ask Congress to let them charge. And they can always sue if they want premiums to be higher. Look at Maine.

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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #375
387. lots of loopholes for them in the bill....
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #387
398. No cost controls, no reduction in administrative costs (paperwork) and inadequate policing
....and lots of loopholes.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #398
430. yes, plus ability to drop coverage for "fraud" as loosely & very broadly defined by the corporations
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
379. Kick.
.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
385. I'm much more than devastated by this bill, but reasonable people can disagree.
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 07:30 PM by bobbolink
What I'm very tired of is the snarking of one side against another.

I think Obama has sold us out, so I will get trashed by the cheerleaders.

I understand the position by someone like Grayson, who wants to save lives, even if not as many as could be. So, I will be trashed by the single-payers (of which I am one).

It stinks, but its what we have, and NONE OF US HERE CAN CHANGE THAT.

I'm also going to add that many homeless people are dying, but that won't get "progressive" attention any time soon. We are invisible, and we don't matter, while so many DUers spend lots of energy demeaning each other.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #385
390. The issue of the poor and Homeless is something very dear to my heart bobbolink
Edited on Mon Dec-28-09 08:54 PM by TheWatcher
We don't always agree with each other, but I am forever on your side on this issue, as everyone should be.

And You are NOT invisible to me. :hi:

it is a tragedy that we are supposedly the richest nation on earth, and yet we forget and neglect so many of our own.

Yet we can always bail out the Banksters and Oligarchs.

The cheerleaders cannot be reached, so don't waste your time.

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #390
391. Thanks.
I appreciate your kind words.

I just wish some of these harsh people could walk in my shoes for just 5 minutes.

:hi:
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #385
414. I hope you're not offended by this, but you are my mental picture/symbol of homelessness
in America, and this whole scenario both breaks my heart and fills me with rage.

You are right, we really don't care about/for each other in this nation any longer, if we ever did. You are strong, please hang on. Something has to happen soon, the tension is growing daily everywhere and there is a breaking point.


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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #414
431. Yes, there IS a breaking point. I'm talking with other homeless people who are fed up with being
ignored, no matter how polite or how angry they are.

History shows us that continual injustice eventually erupts. Yet, "progressives" continue to turn a deaf ear. :wtf:

The eruption will be ugly, as it always is. Yet....where IS everybody?

Strength has its limits. Without support, NOBODY CAN "HANG ON" FOREVER.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-28-09 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
386. It will fail, and Obama will blame the insurance companies
and America will love Obama and hate the insurance companies and we will get health care. (pot-induced hallucination)..
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #386
394. That better be MEDICAL marijuana you're smokin there.
:)
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
401. Do you want pre-existing conditions
done away with? If so, that means mandates because otherwise people just wait until they need insurance to buy it, causing premiums to skyrocket.

Mandates are essential if the insurance companies are going to be forced to accept people with pre-existing conditions. I think it's a good trade-off.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #401
406. This has already been discussed up thread but
Getting rid pre-existing conditions is a good idea, but the insurance company can still charge you for those conditions--they can't deny you coverage, but you can be charged extra for them. There won't be a "flat" rate for everyone in the same age group. And if you have too many pre-existing conditions and become too expensive to insure, you will be dumped into a High Risk pool whose mechanism is unclear.

Improved access to coverage does not mean reasonable rates. That is the mistake people are making.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #406
407. We don't really know the details yet,
Edited on Tue Dec-29-09 01:43 PM by TicketyBoo
so anything said here is pure speculation.

I am waiting to see what the final bill looks like before passing judgement on it.

In that piece from Daily Kos, it says:

The legislation requires that health insurers take all comers and not raise rates based on pre-existing conditions.


There is too much conflicting info floating around right now to really know how any particular individual or family will be affected.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #407
409. Then why did you offer your defense of the bill if you feel that it would be speculation?
?
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #409
438. I believe that it is as legitimate
to be optimistic as it is to be pessimistic.

But that's just me.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #438
446. Optimism and pessimism are feelings
You're welcome to your feelings but don't let that cloud your judgement about the potential results built into the very "infrastructure" of this bill.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #446
455. Right back at you.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #401
443. We don't need this bill to do away with the pre-existing condition clauses in
insurance policies, assuming that the powers that be actually give a damn about them which seems unlikely.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #443
456. Maybe we don't need this exact bill, no,
but the insurance companies are not going to do this out of the goodness of their hearts (because, with few exceptions, they have none). It's going to take some kind of bill to do it.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
420. It benefits Americans with jobs working for for-profit insurance companies.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
421. I have read and read
and read on this thread, and it seems that some are a bit like Chicken Little. "The sky is falling; the sky is falling!"

Well, the sky isn't falling.

We will have some sort of legislated health insurance plan and it will either work for the American people or it won't.

If it doesn't work well, it will be improved upon or it will be scrapped.

There is really no reason to get all upset over it at this point. It's a waste of energy and emotion.

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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #421
422. I don't know if you mean it that way, but your last sentence
illustrates the problem in discussing HCR on DU. At exactly what point are we allowed to get all upset about it?

When the first rumors began about the problems/sellouts - no place at the table for supporters of single payer, then the possibility that the public option was dead, the trading of women's health care for votes that never materialized - the HCR cheerleaders told us we shouldn't get all upset, these were just rumors, we should stop listening because our president and representatives would certainly do what was right.

Then it became clear that all of these things were coming to pass, and the cheerleaders turned ugly and told us these things were good. When those of us who opposed this contacted our representatives to call for the bill to be killed because it solved none of the problem of health care, the HCR cheerleaders said that we were ungrateful, Palin-loving trolls.

At every stage of this process there have been people here who have been telling us to stop complaining because everything will be OK, or because things could be worse, or because we should trust Obama/our congresscritter/future representatives.

Sorry, Nikki, I know you wanted politics left out of this thread.
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #422
423. I think you've missed my point.
At exactly what point are we allowed to get all upset about it?


Oh, you can get all upset about it at any point you choose. I just don't see what it accomplishes.

It seems like a waste of time and energy. Once you've told your Representative and Senators what your views are, you have pretty much done what you can.

This is where the Serenity Prayer comes into play.

Change — Accept — Wisdom.

But some seem to eschew serenity.

I follow it closely; I'm very interested. But I'm not wasting my time worrying about it. At least I'm trying not to.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #423
441. Serenity does not equal lie there and take it
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TicketyBoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #441
460. It does if
you can't do anything to Change it and have the Wisdom to realize that fact.

I've contacted my Representative, both my Senators, and several of the recalcitrant Senators who don't represent me, urging them to vote for HCR, and stating my opinion that Medicare For All is the best option. I've done what I could do to affect Change, and I know that's all I can do. I can't do anything more than I've already done, and it does no good to worry about something that I can't Change, so it's time to Accept that fact. Serenity.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #423
449. Got it...I also try to limit the time I spend
on this, mostly because it is so frustrating, for a variety of reasons. Wishing you less stress...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
424. How far from Medicare for all -- or Single Payer??? Or what every other nation has ???
Those here who are always so ready to fold and compromise on every issue don't

do the party nor the nation any service -- they do a disserivce to us all!!

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #424
426. If you believe Matt Taibbi, it was all compromised away before it started.
..
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #426
459. Obama's corporate agenda has been obvious from first days after election ....
Yet -- during campaign he purposefully distanced himself from DLC poison ...

Then first thing -- boom, he eloped into White House with Rahm!!

And, the rest of it wasn't any better either -- Summers, etal.
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
445. I'm in IT and I'm going to work for an Insurance Company
I have a feeling it might create some new jobs in the Health Care Insurance Industry.

That's all I got. :shrug:
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-29-09 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
452. Everyone's got to do their own math
Eventually, self-interest should guide their own actions.
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