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YES WE CAN - alternative energy, not healthcare, is the magic bullet for ALL other Obama objectives.

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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 02:30 AM
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YES WE CAN - alternative energy, not healthcare, is the magic bullet for ALL other Obama objectives.

President Obama early in his presidency emphasized repairing our crumbling roads and bridges as key parts of a stimulus plan. Spending on healthcare also stimulates although it's not very effective if you merely rob from people's pockets by force to hand money to insurance companies.

In his proposed stimulus plan the subject of alternative energy was relegated to spending some money on research in that area. Research plus $2.25 will get you a ride on the New York City subway. Even General Motors does research on alternative and hybrid vehicles --- research that never leads anywhere, while they continue with gas-guzzling cars to send the world over ecological tipping points. As for roads and bridges, although they need repair, even President Eisenhower promoted the interstate highway system. This is not exactly the vision of the future we expected from our bold new Democratic president in a time of emergency. In the campaign President Obama talked about creating the equivalent of landing a man on the Moon for new energy and the fight against global warming. This was to be his "new frontier."

The danger has been that President Obama was tempted to do a little bit of everything, none of which will solve any of the nation's problems. Gradually this evolved into a stress on healthcare, the same emphasis President Clinton had. Why did Clinton emphasize healthcare? Because pollster Stan Greenberg told him to. President Clinton rightly mocked George H. W. Bush's reference to vision as "the vision thing." But what vision comes out of a poll?

President Obama needs to understand that vision is about seeing the BIG PICTURE instead of a lot of little pictures.

Even President Clinton, during his presidency was told by Hillary Clinton to stop acting like a "bean counter" and deal with big pictures.

Competing interests within the Democratic coalition all want to be heard. And they all have to be satisfied. Some even told President Obama that alternative energy had to be delayed because it would hurt the wounded economy. This is nonsense, but it is apparently one of the competing voices President Obama thinks he has to "balance."

We need a stimulus for the economy. We need alternative energy. We need healthcare. We need to cut the deficit. We have a long laundry list of other objectives and we can't do them all given the shortage of funds. Meanwhile, the towering need for an alternative energy industry has been relegated to an intellectual backwater, now commonly referred to as merely a way to create some more jobs --- "green jobs," which doesn't sound at all appealing to Americans in other industries. Because of this piecemeal view of myriad progressive objectives, a compromise could be struck and everyone could end up getting a crumb, which won't solve anything. The result is that the message was conveyed that the money isn't there, therefore we have to prioritize and give up most of the progressive agenda since "we can't do it all."

YES WE CAN.

Here's how.

We've wasted a year giving welfare to health insurance companies that don't need it. But we can still start anew on the right foot. Start with energy and everything else we want will follow NATURALLY. New tax revenues will come pouring in just as a result of the alternative energy and as they do so we will have the federal money to be able to gradually broaden the agenda to include all the other objectives.
Here's why.

None dare make this point because they are too ignorant or too intimidated by special interest propaganda or too something, but it all starts with alternative energy.

To begin with, energy is a game played by the energy corporations. Remember the '73 Yom Kippur War in the Middle East? Months before that, Mobil Corporation was running TV ads warning of an "energy crisis." No one understood why there was suddenly a crisis. Then the war hit. Although the Israelis won, the oil states then used it as a pretext to cut oil production and raise prices.

Obviously Mobil knew this was coming and was already priming the public relations pump for the profits they would get from higher prices. They wanted to make sure no one pointed a finger at them as partly complicit when gas prices went up, up higher than the oil embargo even warranted. They knew the war was coming and they had every intention of taking their cut of the moola now that the public would be looking to foreigners to blame.

Then President Carter did something they didn't expect. In response to the energy situation he began pushing alternative energy and fuel efficiency.

Immediately, gas prices came crashing back down and long before alternative energy ideas kicked in in a meaningful way.

For two reasons.

Reason number one:

It was a game. Gas prices were up mostly due to forces of oil company manipulation, not "supply and demand." As soon as Carter responded to the "energy crisis" by promoting alternative energy sources instead of higher oil company profits, the American oil companies immediately lowered prices to try to pull the rug out from under the push for alternative energy and to tell everyone, "Never mind! Forget the whole thing!"

Reason number two:

The current price of energy is influenced not only by present supply but by future expectation. For instance, there are futures markets that are current investor bets on FUTURE expectations of supply and demand. Thus, in a futures contract for oil, a player in the futures market will put up money for a shipment of oil that won't be delivered till later. But no one knows what the exact price will be later. Nevertheless an energy producer is willing to sell that future oil shipment now to lock in the price being bid by the futures buyer. Both the seller and the buyer are making bets on the FUTURE price and come to an agreement.

The seller thereby avoids future uncertainty.

The buyer also benefits. He is willing to put up the money now because he thinks the price he is now offering may vary in the future in ways that will benefit him. In the end, in a futures contract he collects the difference between what he put up now and what the final market price is in the future and he makes a profit.

Thus, investors can trade and speculate on the price of oil or other commodities months and even years in advance.

And these long-term bets also influence pricing in the nearer-term. There's a fungibility factor involved. It's all interrelated. If an oil futures contract for a particular date is less appealing to an investor than one of another date, money in the trading of the one can flow out to the trading of the other. Thus even long term energy expectations can have a near term influence on pricing.

If Obama begins a serious energy program NOW, complete with new laws making buildings and cars more energy efficient, along with mandating alternative forms of propulsion and energy production, the price of energy will start coming down NOW, long before those new forms of energy and efficiency even come on the market.

It has been estimated that even a relatively small area of land in the United States covered with solar energy installations could power the entire American electric need. Many other alternative energy ideas would also benefit.

THEY WOULD START BENEFITING ENERGY PRICES IMMEDIATELY, NOT JUST IN THE DISTANT FUTURE.

Just initiating all this would panic the oil companies and have them cutting prices nervously as they did under Carter, in order to try to undercut the push for alternative energy. And lower energy prices would boost the economy.

There would IMMEDIATELY be lower prices at the pump. Also less demand for the use of crops to produce alcohol as a gasoline alternative. This would bring down the price of grain. Since grain is fed to livestock, that would also bring down the price of meat. We have already seen food riots around the world due to the unnecessary diversion of crops from food to energy, precisely because sensible and real energy alternatives are being ignored. In a corrupt system the best we could do for a long time was to try to deal with our dependency on foreign oil merely by trading in some of the influence of the oil lobby for influence by the agribusiness lobby. Feeding human food to the machines for energy was never a great idea and we can do much better than that. YES WE CAN. In fact, with so many wonderful alternative energy ideas, in terms of energy in the midst of plenty we are starving to death --- literally.

The price of virtually everything in our economy is influenced directly or indirectly by the price of fuel. With alternative energy we would thus see a near-term drop in consumer prices across the country. This would bring immediate relief to consumers and businesses. That relief would be equal to or much greater than any tax cut President Obama could offer. The nation remembers that Bush drove the country into a fiscal disaster with his repeated push for tax cuts, tax cuts that did NOT invigorate the economy.

But with prices from dropping energy prices we would also see a consequent drop in interest rates since interest rates are closely tied to inflation. The drop in interest rates would also benefit the economy, and specifically would benefit the price of mortgages, auto loans, business loans, inter-bank lending and so on that are so central to our current economic crisis.

Thus alternative energy could do as much to bail out the economy as bailing out the banks, maybe more and far more than bailing out health insurers who don't need it at all. It would stimulate the economy NOW as much if not more than rebuilding our crumbling roads and bridges, which initially mainly helps the construction industry. As the economy expands, there would be new tax revenues pouring into Federal, state and local governments, even without Federal aid to localities, which would provide additional funds for rebuilding roads and bridges. The new tax revenues --- without cutting taxes --- could then finance many other objectives.

The stupid rhetoric that alternative energy will create a few green jobs in some new sector most Americans are not in completely misses the point of how alternative energy economically benefits everyone.

If we as a nation put all our eggs into the single basket of alternative energy and energy efficiency, we will have the resources for everything else in the Obama agenda.

YES WE CAN.

A story is told about a farmer selling eggs. His hens lay 30 eggs a month. So he PUSHES his hens and PUSHES his hens and PUSHES them. And they start producing 40 eggs a month and 50 eggs a month and then 60. Yet soon the hens are all exhausted and production falls off. But if he would just let the hen go to her rooster, he would soon have all the eggs he needs.

In short, what is needed is a more organic, natural approach.

The same with alternative energy. By encouraging this objective now, hard, we will soon free up cash and revenue for all the other things we need.

Let me conclude by offering a few specific points on energy.

Firstly, forget about nuclear power. It's a fantasy and a wild goose chase. Also a sitting duck target for terrorists. Guess what? It actually requires the use of fossil fuel to refine uranium ore for nuclear power plants. If the uranium ore is high grade (meaning a lot of uranium relative to the other minerals that have to be removed from the ore to purify the uranium), you come out ahead. But by 2050 the high grade uranium ore will be mostly gone and we will have to rely on the lower grade uranium ore. That ore will actually require so much fossil fuel to refine, process and utilize that you would actually get more energy just by burning that fossil fuel in an ordinary oil or coal fired electric plant. In short, nuclear power will be obsolete by 2050. (This doesn't even get into the dreadful problem of interminable nuclear wastes, which we will have to pay to store. As the saying goes, "Waste is a terrible thing to mind.") So every penny spent to promote nuclear power is a dead end, a drive off a cliff. Nuclear power is a false hope, a fool's diversion that needs to be stopped cold.

But there are so many alternatives. We know that the McCain campaign pushed a mix of nuclear and oil with a little solar thrown in for political cover. Is there any way that oil can be part of the energy solution? Not really. In fact, many oil deposits are in rock formations that are slightly radioactive. Who needs that stuff in the air?

However, there is a way that we could use oil industry TECHNOLOGY for alternative power, which could benefit the oil companies and help them diversify. I won't say the oil industry will be jumping for joy at any alternative, but at least this is something that could mollify them a little. (Of course, they would have to be forced into it, nevertheless.) Here's one way oil technology could help alternative energy:

Along the east coast of the United States and elsewhere there are powerful ocean currents, far more powerful than the mighty Amazon, the world's biggest river. The ocean current along the U.S. east coast is called the Gulf Stream, warm water that flows northeast from the Caribbean to Europe. This is a powerful flow of ocean water along the top 50 feet of the ocean. Since the oil industry already has developed sophisticated offshore platforms for drilling, why not mandate that they build similar platforms with giant paddle wheels to catch the current and use it to power on-site electric generators to make electric power and then cable it back to land?

Think of the advantage. With offshore drilling, an oil company spends a fortune to prospect and search for the oil, risky efforts that can come up dry. Then, on an educated guess they start drilling. Then they have to ship the oil ashore, refine it, separate it out into different oil products and then ship all those products to different markets including power plants. All this costs money every step of the way.

But if you use the same offshore platform instead to make electricity right on the spot, all those other expenses are eliminated. It's a freebie. A sure thing. An offshore platform that starts making energy right away, right on the spot, without all those other expenses and uncertainties. You know the ocean current is there. The Gulf Stream and similar currents offer clean, cheap hydroelectric power on a scale that would dwarf the mighty Amazon River. A revolution in clean hydroelectric power.

The U.S. government could even start building it's OWN offshore hydroelectric power projects just like the hydroelectric project President Roosevelt built with the Tennessee Valley Authority during the New Deal. And that's profit that goes straight into government coffers, to help finance a future middle class tax cut or cut the deficit or pay for Medicare expansion. Plus, government building of such offshore hydroelectric projects creates jobs on the spot. Bottom line? If the oil companies don't like making energy this way, the government can do it on behalf of the taxpayers, and screw the oil companies. But I would still want to pass laws forcing the oil companies to do it. They can make gobs of money from this --- whether they like it or not.

I want to emphasize that hydroelectric power has its limitations. The Colorado River is so heavily dammed up for hydroelectric power that the strength of the river is spent and the river actually dries up before reaching the sea, an environmental and scenic tragedy. Would tapping the energy of the Gulf Stream cause environmental problems? Perhaps eventually. If the Gulf Stream were massively tapped for energy it could slow the Gulf Stream and reduce the warmth the Gulf Stream brings to Europe.

But is that really a near-term problem? No. It would take an AWFUL lot of hydroelectric power projects along the Gulf Stream to do this, almost beyond imagining for the foreseeable future. In fact, with global warming Europe has been experiencing flooding and heat waves. For years and years to come Europe would actually BENEFIT from some cooling by tapping the energy of the Gulf Stream. For many, many decades to come it's a win-win situation. So this is a very good solution that produces no greenhouse gases or toxic wastes at all and has many related environmental benefits. In fact, since all ocean currents are powered by the energy of the Sun, oceanic hydroelectric power is itself an indirect form of solar energy, as is wind power.

Another idea of mine concerns the ideal location of the United States in the temperate zone. All over the United States we pipe natural gas for cooking and winter heating. We pipe natural gas and use other fossil fuels to drive electric plants for powering air conditioners during the summer. A staggering amount of energy is manufactured just for heating and cooling the country.

And it's unnecessary.

The natural gas distribution network has pipelines all over the country. Why not mandate that that same natural gas industry also lay down pipelines that distribute:

AIR.

That's right. Plain old inexpensive air.

What's THAT gonna do?

Plenty.

Pipes can be thermally insulated to retain the temperature inside. Why not pipe warm air up from Mexico during the winter and pump it right into people's homes for home heating?

And why not pipe cool air down from Canada to cool people's homes during summer?

None of this belches carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

Nature is ALREADY heating and cooling the air north and south of us. In fact, this thermal difference between Canada and Mexico is driven, again, by the energy of the Sun. Piping warm and cool air around the United States is another indirect form of solar energy. Why do we need to burn fossil fuel to heat and cool the air artificially when nature already does it naturally? Do you have any idea how much oil, gas and coal we could save this way? Absolutely staggering amounts. Incidentally, in New York City there are old Con Edison steam pipes that pipe steam into some buildings. (The steam is produced by Con Edison from water heated by burning fossil fuel.) So for years natural gas hasn't been the only gas being piped in the U.S. for energy purposes.

BUT AIR IS CHEAPER.

Again, no need to prospect for natural gas, drill, refine, and engage in all the other costly processes of manufacturing it. Hot and cold air are right next door, a sure supply. No need for oil in the boiler to heat homes. No need to burn coal to power electric plants to power air conditioners, which during summer peak use has caused blackouts. There is so much rhetoric about coal, dirty coal, clean coal, sequestration of carbon from burning coal. You can eliminate a lot of coal use entirely given our location between hot and cool countries.

Just pipe warm and cold air.

To be sure, there can be some problems. There are insects and spiders in Mexico we wouldn't want coming up to the United States along an air pipeline. Some areas have air pollution or unwanted bacteria. Piped air would have to be screened and filtered. But these are minor challenges compared to the astonishing savings. Piping hot and cold air would be so much cheaper than piping natural gas that the savings to American CONSUMERS would be enormous, real money put into the pockets of tens of millions of American homes and businesses. It would be like a drastic middle class tax cut. And without draining the Federal treasury. No need to cut taxes. Can we have it all?

YES WE CAN.

A similar plan could be worked out in other areas of the world, wherever one country or region is warmer or cooler than a neighboring one. The fossil fuel savings would be so enormous that the entire planet would breathe a sigh of relief. And again, this would have an immediate effect on energy futures markets, benefiting in turn current energy prices right away.

My fear is that this will merely be another Clinton Administration, with no singular driving force and instead a hodgepodge of competing progressive objectives and fiefdoms, which eventually lose their vigor and collapse into a DLC-type government full of triangulation, instead of the radical driving success we now need. If President Obama's economic stimulus does not treat global warming as the central driving force and makes do with a stimulus that is merely full of workers shoveling around asphalt or welfare for health insurers, he will have squandered years of his presidency. Alternative energy IS the stimulus. Nothing else will do.

Alternative energy isn't just one of the objectives for an Obama Administration competing for scarce funds with all the other piecemeal objectives. This is not about just creating a few green jobs on the side. All over the world nations have historically embarked on POWER projects to invigorate their whole economies, not just one sector. This is the key. There is a "New Deal" for energy that can quickly revitalize the entire economy. Alternative energy is the first priority, the magic bullet that will lead to triumph in all the other objectives and which will lead to an economic miracle that will make the Obama presidency a huge, historic success on a par with great presidents like Franklin Roosevelt.

Again: All over the world nations have historically embarked on POWER projects to invigorate their economies. This is the key. We can do it with increased efficiency and alternative energy. The looming disaster of global warming is both a crisis and an opportunity. We need to make this the centerpiece of an economic plan and not the backwater of petty, conservative, fossil-fuel addicted bean counters who are saying "no we can't" and sapping the vision of a great Obama presidency we hoped for in this critical historic moment.


Here are some additional thoughts:


There was a lot of concern over the "team of rivals" President Obama was crafting, inspired by the example of Lincoln. It was also something utilized to an extent by President Kennedy. Both Kennedy and Lincoln were assassinated. There is much evidence that among those in the JFK conspiracy were people right in his own government, including people he hired. He chose the more conservative, and Texan, Lyndon Johnson as his running mate and it has been charged that Johnson was in on the conspiracy. There is great danger in bringing rivals into your government and many of them secretly harbor wishes to undermine you. It's very dangerous. It's POLITICALLY dangerous.

Here is what Machiavelli said in "The Prince" about some of this:

Machiavelli argued for daring over caution and prudence. He argued for AUDACITY. We remember audacity, don't we? That little book called "THE AUDACITY OF HOPE"??????? What happened to audacity?

Of the cautious man Machiavelli writes (in Chapter 25) that:

"If time and circumstances change he will be ruined, because he does not change his mode of procedure. No man is found so prudent as to be able to adapt himself… because he cannot deviate from that to which his nature disposes him… having always prospered by walking in one path, he cannot persuade himself that it is well to leave it, and therefore the cautious man, when it is time to act suddenly, does not know how to do so, and is consequently ruined."

In other words if you make prudence and caution a compulsive habit, it will paralyze you and you will get run over. There has to be AUDACITY.

Here's some of what Machiavelli said about the danger of embracing rivals:

In chapter 4 he speaks of how a kingdom can have a prince and his servants --- or --- a prince and barons who have their own states who recognize them as lords. Machiavelli argued that if you cede power to barons, they carve out their own fiefdom and pose a threat. Thus Machiavelli noted (chapter 4) that:

"The king of France is surrounded by a large number of ancient nobles… The king cannot deprive them without danger to himself."

Machiavelli goes on to say that this is not only a danger to the king but to the kingdom as a whole, that outside enemies find it easy to invade when there are barons who have mixed loyalties:

"It is easy to enter… by winning over some baron of the kingdom, there being always malcontents, and those desiring innovations."

Here's another relevant quote, from chapter 7:

"He who does not lay his foundations beforehand may by great abilities do so afterwards, although with great trouble to the architect and danger to the building."

And we find a similar idea in a Hassidic teaching:

Always plant a seed without a scratch, for if the initial embryo of the tree has a scratch or blemish, when the tree grows up the scratch will become a huge scar on the mature tree.

A "team of rivals" was a really foolish idea. It plants seeds that will cause huge problems and divisions and schisms and back stabbing down the road. It could disintegrate Obama's whole presidency and agenda. His whole progressive agenda is now paralyzed. Especially in a huge government that is today so large that it is hard to hold together in the first place. Government was much smaller in Lincoln's day and the example of Lincoln, even if meritorious, proves little. And while President Kennedy started off with a Republican-appeasing tax cut, he had won the presidency only by a hair's breadth and there were a lot more Republicans in the Senate. Obama won massively but he is acting like he won only narrowly.

And here's another quote from Machiavelli, chapter 13:

"Men with their lack of prudence initiate novelties and, finding the first taste good, do not notice the poison within."

I fear that with all its obsession over moderation there is poison in the Obama Administration, people who should not be trusted.

There is no need for any of this. There is no need to hide under the desk or in the closet crafting a timid presidency that avoids bold action. Alternative energy is the magic bullet that makes it easy to have it all.



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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for having hope instead of frustration. K&R. Good voice.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. Thanks.
...
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GodDamLiberal Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Some good points
but air?

Maybe look into something like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-coupled_heat_exchanger

A lot cheaper.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. That's interesting, GDL.
Edited on Wed Dec-30-09 04:26 AM by breadandwine
How many pipes would you have to bury how deep to heat or cool a house of how many cubic feet of volume? What if the building is a skyscraper? I'm thinking that insulated pipes could be run through some of the same conduits as the existing natural gas system or adjacent to them and maybe even at ground level or near. the pic in that article shows a lengthy pipe underground looped back for one building of low height. If pumped from Mexico you might actually have to have less piping per building overall.


Here's the pic from that article:







You might need to run only a single pipe, not that double-looped one, if you're piping into a building warm or cold air from elsewhere. And I'm talking about possibly much hotter or colder air than is in the ground under a house, if it comes from Mexico or Canada. Installing the piping in that picture under a house might be complicated and expensive. It might be feasible only in new houses, not existing ones. A single pipe near ground level carrying cold or warm air in a pipeline might require less excavation PER BUILDING LOCATION. But that's just a guess.

Probably all these ideas should be encouraged.





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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. If you size a ground heat exchanger properly you get an added benefit..
During the hot summer heat is pumped into the ground from your building which warms the ground, during the cold winter that same heat is then pumped back into the building which then cools the ground, when summer comes back around the ground is cooler than it would have been otherwise which increases efficiency.

There are a lot of factors you have to take into account but properly done it's possible to time the swings in temperature of the ground you are exchanging the heat with so as to maximize the efficiency at the hottest and coldest times of the year.

And water has a *much* higher specific heat than does air, a pipe carrying water can transport many times the heat energy than can the same size pipe carrying air.



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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Fumesucker, heat pumped down in the summer will last all winter?
...




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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Soil is actually a fairly good thermal insulator as well as having a high heat capacity..
Go down below about six feet or so and the temperature of the soil is very close to the year round average temperature at your location, that's why caves are warmer than the outside air temp in the winter and cooler than the outside air temp in summer.

A properly sized and installed geothermal heat pump system uses the heat capacity of hundreds or even thousands of tons of soil to absorb or give up heat to the interior of your building. Obviously some heat (or cool) will be lost to conduction through the soil but heat travels quite slowly that way (somewhat less than six feet in six months). It's not a perfectly efficient process but it can be made to work surprisingly well.

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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Six feet in six months.

Wow.


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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Fumesucker, if soil is a good insulator, then air pipes from Mexico & Canada ---
could be insulated in part by just burying them. Though some insulation around the pipe might also help. I think your info supports what I'm saying about hot air from Mexico and cold air from Canada or the Arctic being possible to pipe into the US. The only real problem is keeping that air insulated as it travels through the pipe and I think you are underscoring how possible that is.





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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-10-10 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
39. GDL, come to think of it, your point about the constancy of ground temperatures --

supports my point about piping air long distances. If the pipes are buried, the ground itself helps insulate them.





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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 05:09 AM
Response to Original message
4. lots of good ideas to digest here--bookmarked
you obviously spent a long time writing this, and it deserves to be read. Positive ideas definitely needed now. And your thoughts on the ludicrous "team of rivals"--that it is actually dangerous and self-defeating--encapsulate perfectly the way I feel about it without having been able to put it in words. The whole thing has been such a turn-off to me: we elected a Democrat but ended up with a republican administration.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. There has to be a major wallowing in self-delusion and spines of Jello
to propel so much inaction when Democrats have such wide control in both houses of Congress. How long do they blame it all on filibuster threats? When are they going to just start fighting instead of calculating?




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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. People are so focused on the healthcare bill, they have forgotten
about the big picture. I've heard some comments that Obama worked like a dog at Copenhagen.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Part of my frustration about Copenhagen is that it didn't feel like real American leadership.
I wasn't satisfied with President Obama's speech and I think a big part of the letdown there was that there was so much focus on healthcare all these months. All the campaigning for change in terms of real public focus has been on healthcare and with lots of cave in to the insurance companies at that. You can make all kinds of behind the scenes negotiations with other countries at Copenhagen in order to hammer out a deal of the "possible," but you also have to press the limit and demand more than what may be pleasant to hear. You have to shake the rafters with the truth whether people want to hear or not. That's part of leadership. I didn't see that in Copenhagen from President Obama much. But in any case the preoccupation with healthcare is a big part of the reason for failure on global warming, in my view.

People may be able to pay their medical bills easier if there is the right kind of healthcare (which the current bill is not). But it won't matter if there is a planet-wide climate disaster. In a new twist on an old saying, in that case, literally, the operation was a success but the patient died.....













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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. But all the attention was on healthcare.
If you are busy meeting people but not shaking them up from the bully pulpit I'm not sure it's enough to change things.


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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. It was once said that in the end humanity will go out with a whimper,
not a bang. The planet is going off a cliff but people are squabbling over who will pay for their insurance as they descend toward the bottom.




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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. The President's only objective now
is to get reelected in '12. Secondarily, it would be nice if he didn't lose Congress next year....but with what passes for "Democrats" in Congress, does it really matter?
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Part of what amazes me is that the DLCers in the White House actually believe that their constant
weakness makes Obama more popular. This is a totally scripted presidency and all Obama would have to do is what we elected him for and the public would love him. There's still time for a course correction.

But as Harry Truman said (later quoted by Reagan but Truman said it first), "If you run a Republican against a Republican, the Republican will win every time."






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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
9. Energy is super crucial
Unfortunately, the pigs that get fat off that are more powerful than big insurance.

We just can't pass an honest effort at anything and then when the effort is weak we get blamed for failed ideas. We can sneak some stuff but the Senate is nearly unmanageable to do big lifts between arcane rules and so few crazies having so much representation.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I hear you, Kentuckian, but I'm not convinced it's hopeless.

First comes a determination to lead. Leadership is more than passing bills. It's also about just coming on national television and speaking the truth. That's the first step, using the "bully pulpit" and railing on global warming and MAKING it an issue. Before you can pass anything, you have to get people worked up. Placidity is as much a problem right now as special interest opposition. The president has to show fire in his belly and fight.





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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Also, I think there's something relatively selfish about healthcare vs. global warming.

Unfortunately, some people are more willing to save themselves than the whole planet.


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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Energy is at the heart of so many policies and issues.

Foreign policy too. How can energy not be a leading part of the agenda?





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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kicked for post-holiday reading. Thanks for posting this!
Edited on Tue Jan-05-10 06:10 PM by Ignis
It's easy to allow ourselves to be manipulated into arguing over the crisis-du-jour while we neglect looking at the big picture and following the money.

And in advance of those who will give you the coward's snarky "tl;dr" I say:
:yourock:
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thanks for the kick!
Shame this topic isn't getting as much attention as whether or not Rush had a heart attack.





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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. If not for DU...
I'd never know that one of Brittany's 9 illegitimate love-children tied Michael Jackson's corpse to a balloon!

:crazy:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
25. Pipe up warm air from Mexico?
*Internet Meme Reaction Face temporarily down for service*
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Meaning?

...
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Meaning...
what do you think prevents warm air from just flowing up from Mexico by itself without a pipe?
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Are you asking me for a dissertation on meteorological dynamics?
Edited on Wed Jan-06-10 11:14 PM by breadandwine
In the system proposed above the warm air would be PUMPED through the pipe from Mexico to homes in the US.

With a natural gas pipeline the gas is pressurized at compressor stations.

The same could be done for warm air piped from Mexico during winter or cold air piped from Canada or the Arctic during summer. Same thing: You pump it.

See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_pipeline

But why pump natural gas to heat homes when you can pump air that is already warm and not have to burn all that fossil fuel?








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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. How much energy does it cost to pump hot air up from Mexico?
Versus just having a heater in your home?
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Are you kidding? The difference is astounding.
First of all, heating a home with electricity is MORE expensive than heating it with natural gas. The electricity has to be made elsewhere by burning fossil fuels usually. Second, while heating a home with natural gas is cheaper than using an electric heater, heating a home with air that does not have to be burned is cheaper still. The warm air is already warm so all you have to do is pump it. With natural gas you have to pump it also but you first have to prospect for it, drill for it, process it and so on, all of which consumes energy. Then it is burned either in homes or in power plants to make electricity cabled to homes, which produces greenhouse gases. Pumping ordinary warm air doesn't require any of these extra steps except the actual pumping which if you were using natural gas you were doing anyway. And again, natural gas is cheaper than electric which is related to energy use. If you are using an electric heater you are first prospecting for the fossil fuel, drilling for it, processing it, all consuming energy, and then if it's used to make electricity the fuel is burned. Then the electricity is used in the home to heat the electric coils in an electric heater and at each step there is energy loss, following Newton's Laws of Thermodynamics, so it's all very wasteful along the way.

Wouldn't it be much easier and save much more energy to just pump air that is ALREADY hot?

Obviously yes.




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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Yes, I understand how heaters work.

"Wouldn't it be much easier and save much more energy to just pump air that is ALREADY hot?"

Would it be easier to pump hot air from Mexico to cold homes in the U.S. compared to heaters? I don't know, you tell me. That's what I'm asking.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-06-10 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Read over my post 30. I think it's really clear if you just reread it.
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 12:06 AM by breadandwine
The answer is an emphatic yes. It's easier, cheaper and more energy efficient.


The electric heater isn't just a lil ole electric heater minding it's lonesome. It's part of a whole energy grid, system and industry. THAT'S what you have to compare to the system proposed above that uses air instead of gas, electric or oil.





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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Show your math.
Tell me how much cheaper and efficient.

Be specific.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. High fructose, have you ever had a sugar overdose?

YOU be specific. Or go work for Senator Inhofe the climate crisis denier. You're not making any sense. Are you trying to embroil this thread in an absurd argument? What axe do you have to grind? Prove WHAT? That burning fossil fuel uses up more energy than NOT burning fossil fuel? Do I have to prove that to you???



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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You're the one making the claim.
Should be pretty easy to look up the average energy it takes to heat a typical american house in winter.

You're claiming it'd be an improvement to pipe up hot air from Mexico, well then prove your point.

Give us some numbers.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. To be perfectly honest, I don't understand what it is that you don't understand.
...
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
36. He'll sell that out to the Chinese next, just like everything else he sold out on.
We'll be getting our new technologies manufactured IN China, if Obama keeps on the same path he has been going.

Just wait, you'll see... "Hope!" "Change!" "Yes We Can!" = All bullshit slogans to get elected, then quickly forgotten.
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breadandwine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Well, the issue of global warming has huge economic benefits if we tackle it right.
Perhaps that will spur policy makers to deal with it more enthusiastically.






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