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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 06:45 PM
Original message
What would you actually do to fix public education?
All too often on this board we hear people reacting to bad ideas and lamenting what they are against: testing, vouchers, charter schools, NCLB, etc. Fine. I'm against most of those things too, but we hear far too little discussion of what you would actually do to fix public education in this country.

So let's hear some ideas.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. De-centralize, then give the locally controlled school districts lots of taxpayer money.
With plenty of oversight.
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liberal_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. get rid of some of the administrative positions and reallocate the money
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 06:53 PM by liberal_at_heart
Hire more qualified teachers, lower class sizes. Also we need to find a way to fund schools in poor economic areas. The state typically sends more state funds to poor neighborhoods than rich neighborhoods but the schools in the rich neighborhoods get way more money from local taxes and fundraising than schools in poor neighborhoods. There is still too much of a divide between how much money goes to rich schools and poor schools.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. according to the ex-public school teachers I know, LET TEACHERS BE TEACHERS
and not force them to be prison guards, to this end make it easier for public schools to permanently expel criminal students.

One of the largest problems is forcing public schools to be waiting rooms for prison, look at that recent fiasco in Texas where a girl was blowing a guy in the classroom with an audience - among other things they were charged with violating their probation. They were already criminals.

I know several teachers who quit LAUSD because they just couldn't deal with the bullshit resulting from criminals in their classrooms.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. But we need alternative programs for those kids
We can't just kick them out. We have to educate them.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. and if they don't want to be educated?
Kids only attending school because it is a condition of their parole or probation are only a disruption. Those sentencing terms are unfair because it is the criminal justice system dumping their problem on the public schools.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Actually I've seen it work both ways. If the kids know they have a strong judge/PO
they usually come around and perform better. If they think they can skate, they will often do that. The problem comes in when they leave juvenile at 17 and there are few options available to them. Juvie won't keep kids past 17. They have received ed. services in that setting but the curriculums in a Juvie versus a traditional HS often don't mix well.

It is true that the juvie justice system does dump at times. Why? They can. FAPE permits them to do so. Free and appropriate public education.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. They are kids; it's not about what they WANT
My kids wanted to come home and play video games all night. Do you think that's what they got to do?

I agree these kids are a huge problem in our traditional public schools. So I do think they belong in alternative programs. Perhaps a choice of school or jail will motivate them to go to school. But just kicking them out is NOT the answer; we may as well put them in a prison cell if we don't try to educate them.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. you aren't telling a 200lbs gang member to do anything
The problem is resources are scarce and the cold truth is many of these kids have enthusiastically embraced gang and criminal activity and the greatest teachers and greatest schools on earth aren't going to influence them.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I've taught more than a few of those 200 lb gang members
It's amazing what a man in a uniform with a gun on his hip can do to motivate such kids, by just standing in the classroom. :)

I refuse to give up on these kids. They need competent professionals more than most kids.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Armed guards in the classroom. Good idea. nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Not in all classrooms
But in alternative schools where kids are likely to walk away or disrupt, yes we need security. Some kids don't respect anyone without a badge.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
69. Poverty breeds violence . . . tackle poverty first --
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. That sounds like something out of an old Chris Rock routine
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Chris gets it right sometimes
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #36
66. +10
Not nec the uniformed officer, but the refusing to give up. I've taught a few of the same students as well.

One of them was the first person to see if I was okay after I had to leave the room for a phone call... and learned that my father had just passed away. I guess I let out an involuntary muted howl/moan. Big bad gang member ... but also still a kid.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #35
63. Suggesting that our students are criminals is not an attitude which helps kids learn anything...
Poverty breeds crime -- so you can start right there.

Meanwhile, many of our states are near bankruptcy also because of corruption of government

in moving tax cuts for the rich --

Additionally, just as our nation's infrastructure has been very seriously neglected to dangerous

levels by the Repugs, so have our schools been neglected in upkeep and financing.

I've read that Federal budgets for our schools often hid CIA money -- 50% of the education

budget at times!! So we really have no idea often what the hell has been going on.

Repug fake reality -- !!

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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Thank you. nt
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
79. Decentralize. And shut down the Cartoon Network. ;)
Okay, at least make it possible for people to subscribe to ONLY the cable channels they want.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Turn schools into community centers
Place health clinics and public libraries in schools and keep the buildings open 6 days a week, 10 to 12 hours a day.

Provide after school recreation and tutoring for all the kids in the neighborhood.

Have adult education classes in the evenings. English language and computer literacy would be a great start.

If your public school really serves the community, the community will embrace and support it. I have seen this work in a very low income neighborhood. When the school district proposed closing the school because the building was so old, the neighbors turned out en masse. They walked door to door and gathered signatures on petitions; the hearing held by the school board was standing room only. Local business owners wrote letters to the paper and contacted elected officials. It was really an amazing thing to see in an urban school serving a low income community. But that community loves that school because they all feel welcome there and are a part of the education going on in the building. It's called community ownership and it works.

Steny Hoyer had an amendment to the ESEA which provided grants for community based schools. I have no idea if he is still working on this. Hope so.

I also strongly believe that we need to raise the dropout age to 18 and provide more vocational programs for kids who aren't college bound.

Get rid of summer vacation and make schools year round.

Make sure every school is a modern facility with the latest up to date technology.

Pay teachers a decent wage that encourages them to stay in the profession instead of leaving it for a more profitable career.

Just a few ideas and of course all involve money. So I am not crossing my fingers.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
65. Awesome idea....
The local school should be the center of the neighborhood. In my perfect world, the school, the public library, the clinic, and the park would all be co-located. The school doors should be open to after-hours civic groups and, of course, the school should be the local polliing place.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #65
93. yeah, they just passed a bond in my town
and it involved closing both of my local grade schools. Although, as far as I know, neither one was much of a neighborhood resource.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
76. Excellent, As Usual (nt)
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. figure out how to make parents more responsible for school outcomes for their kids.... nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Make them want to be involved
We don't do enough to attract parents. We also don't ask enough of them. Many don't feel welcome at their child's school and that is shameful.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
78. Having worked in the Adult Ed school here in New Haven I noticed something
shared by the most troublemaking kids there: lack of anger management. They must have learned this behavior somewhere and my guess is that the parent (most have only one really that is a presence in their lives) "teaches" this through their own behavior. It is passed along. These poor kids are doomed from the start. They have learned to respond to anything they don't like with yelling and then escalating to slapping, hitting, shoving. We all had to pass thru a metal detector watched over by the world's biggest cop every day. Another cop supervised the parking lot (but still vehicles got stolen in broad daylight). We had Code Reds at least 3 to 4 times a year, some supplemented with cops with long guns being sent in as wel cowered behind our locked doors.

You have to remember that a lot of these kids have kids for parents. They often only communicate with their own kids by yelling at them. We encouraged them to talk to their kids a lot as they are growing up but there seems to be a parenting "technique" of practically ignoring the child until he does steps out of line and then smacking him down verbally and often physically. These are not parents who lack feeling welcome in the school. They lack basic socializing skills for themselves. How can we expect their kids to be any different?
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
39. that unfortunately becomes a matter of values,
The day my mother found out she was pregnant with me my parents began saving for university, they held my hand and kicked my ass all the way through school and supported me financially though university.

However on the street where I grew up there was a man named Roger who was fond of saying "there is always a new car for the man who shows up at the plant on time" and openly mocked the academic aspirations of his own children. No idea what happened to the son, but his daughter is a bank teller.

There are too many people in this country that are stuck in a 1950's blue collar mentality where simply being white and hardworking is some sort of E Ticket to success.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
64. If schools are underfinanced, poorly supplied, and in very poor neighborhoods . . .
that would be difficult as probably both parents work --

Encouraging parents to ensure that their children get to schools --

being aware of whether or not they have proper food and providing it are probably

what would help these students --

Also, keep schools open longer so that kids with no parent at home have some creative

activities -- and an environment where they can do homework or continue to study whatever

subject they are interested in and receive assistance in that research.

Certainly, having computers available for searches beyond schools hours -- and well-stocked

libraries.

A safe environment for students begins with ending poverty!!

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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. Get the feds out of education, one band-aid does not fit all wounds
NCLB, etc, is not helping.

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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Amen to that. The Fed's and the State Ed. Dept.'s are the culprits.
For every regulation there is a bureaucrat with a staff...that is the cost to local school districts.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Self delete
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 07:38 PM by MichiganVote
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. Depends on what is meant by "improving". Buildings? Sure, they need to be updated for
our new digital age. We all know that. But it takes money and education is never a priority unless its to release a new regulation.

Teaching staff? Michigan has one of the most stringent teaching credentialing processes in the country. Does it help? Well apparently not since the State gov't has just passed a new and improved way for non teachers to become "certified". These non teachers pretty much just have to say they are now a teacher. All of the other fools who have thousands of dollars invested for 5 or more years of university training and are highly qualified per NCLB are shit out of luck. Common sense? Hardly. This change has been made for the state to qualify for Obama's Race To The Top money. :eyes:

Student services? Yeah right. Who gets laid off first? Counselors and social workers who deliver on site counseling, peer mediation, anti-bullying, evaluations, etc. These positions in our population should be a priority for all the bellyaching the public does about what Johnnie doesn't get in school. But they're not...so it goes.

Curriculum? Kids are moving around like never before. We need a portable curriculum in this country. Badly. Every time a kid changes schools they lose at least a half year of instruction. Why can't states work together to get this done instead of yet another regulation about stuff that schools don't the money to provide? Think bureaucracy.

School discipline? Hopeless. You can make some people administrators. You cannot give them common sense. The attempt to remove local control from school boards has resulted in anything from draconian measures to nobody who plays football ever gets disciplined. Add in parent criticisms and its a circus. I have no answers on this except to say that the next time I hear another person complain about their unruly, disrespectful, lazy ass kids not getting their free and appropriate education I think I will scream.

Special Education? Talk about a need for reform. All of the heaps and heaps of laws for special education are due to one thing. Lawsuits. People threaten a lawsuit, they get what they want EVEN when it is shown that it's not needed. If the people on welfare or food stamps had the wherewithall to sue like the parents do for special education, we'd pay a hell of a lot more for every single social service. Not that I don't see school districts screw up. They do and have. But the settlements on these cases are obscene and nobody likes a fat settlement more than an attorney.

So what's left? Busing? School breakfast/lunch? Examinations? Alternative education? Education for adults?

Its a huge area of our society. Too bad everybody wants to call a sound bite or an acronym a solution like the useless politicians we have elected.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
67. We need more federal financing of schools -- and federal assistance in shoring up states
which are near bankruptcy -- repairing the schools -- investing in them and in

the students --

Instead of Charter schools which should be ended -- we need schools with more resources,

not less.

At one time 50% of the Federal Education budget was actually money headed for CIA and their

hidden agenda.

We need to end poverty -- right wing/GOP has been creating poverty more for more than 40+ years!!!

We also need to ensure that in many of these schools the students have been breakfasts,

lunch or whatever it takes.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:05 PM
Original message
Here:
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. My suggestions, which go to the heart of what is wrong with public education
link

In addition to my recommendations in that post:

All due process hearings would be open to the public and to the media as extra insurance against frivolous terminations of teachers. Dismissing a teacher is serious business, as it virtually guarantees that teacher can never, ever work again in public education.

Plus school board reform. No one would be allowed to run for school boards if they have relatives as employees, or that they were employees of the district of the board the person is running for. Relatives of school board members and of superintendents would not be allowed to have positions in the same district regardless of size.

Nepotism is one of the most serious problems facing public education and one of the least publicized.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. IMO there needs to be fundamental change away from the industrial age factory-school model.
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 07:12 PM by Odin2005
A model that produces compliant corporate drones, and instead use new methods and technologies to facilitate public education and promote critical thinking and creativity. What the details should be I don't know, I'm no education expert.

The "Homeschoolers are all fundy wackos" prejudice needs to go. support for homeschooling should be increased massively.

There needs to be massive funding for alternative schools for kids that are gifted and/or learning disabled, autistic, etc.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Well said, a good point. Kids are not widgets that are manufactured.
It's a stupid model and we ought to give it up.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
80. +1 And "smaller is better" would be one way to get rid of the 'factory-school'
approach.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. I agree!
:hi:
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. Stop demonizing teachers..
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 07:11 PM by walldude
The right just loves to demonize teachers. They act like being a teacher is some high paying, thrill a minute job that people are begging to get into. In my experience teachers are some of the most selfless people there are. The certainly don't get into teaching for the money. They spend their own money on classroom needs, they spend extra time with kids and they work for shitty pay.

There is nothing wrong with schools that FUNDING can't fix. But we are too busy blowing shit up to worry about the future. Many schools have lost art and music programs, they have been forced into a position where they have to teach kids how to pass a test, not how to learn the material. When funding is based on "performance" then all hopes of actually educating kids is out the window and we just teach them how to pass the local NCLB test so the school can increase their funding.

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femmocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. +1
You nailed it.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. +1
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. +1
It is about funding. We have never funded our schools appropriately.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Reminds me of the old Bumper Sticker
"Wouldn't it be nice if we had plenty of money for education and the Pentagon had to hold a bake sale to build bombs."
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #12
68. +1000% ... and stop demonizing unions ---
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
73. Not just the right; there's plenty of teacher demonizing here. (nt)
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
13. I went to a British school for a few years
When I went to American public schools after that I already knew most of what was given in the curriculum and more. British and European schools are hard but they're good.

Lots of private schools in the US, especially for the rich are also excellent schools. There's a theory that I tend to believe that the public schools basically teach students to be followers and to memorize by rote and accept authority figures while the private schools teach problem solving and critical thinking and encourage leadership and competition.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. And some private schools do not teach critical thinking, leadership etc.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. Publicly sacrifice the meanest student per grade, per school, each year to bring good luck.
That'll thin the herd and make parents more interested in the conduct of their kids.


Unless parents and children are motivated, not much can be done to "fix" public education, because the fault lies with families who don't care about how their kids do in school, or how they behave in school. Teachers are not the problem. Parents are.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. Get property taxes out of the mix?
Be serious for funding all schools?
Look at the pentagon budget -- schools are
more important to national security.

Don't be afraid of a tough curriculum -- no
need for the lowest common denominator
in a school ever.
Provide a variety of back up methods for students
falling through.
Etc.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Michigan did that. The lottery would fix it all. Well guess what? Now that's screwed up too.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. Same here
It was a freakin joke. I think the lottery provides one tenth of one percent of the entire education budget. BFD.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. Yup. Happy New Education Year btw.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Happy New Year to you too!
:hi:
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. Fund it
For 30 years we have been seeking a cheaper way to do this. Cheaper ways simply do not exist. Fund it like you mean it.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
51. You beat me to it
fund it, or at least stop de-funding it. What do kids learn about how important education is, when their school is falling apart, more programs are cut every year, and teachers themselves have no security from year to year, however good they are.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. Stop teaching to standardized tests
End the cookie cutter, teaching to the lowest common denominator.

Funding for all schools for all programs.

Mandate that school boards are comprised of parents of students. Many in school boards are in the office for personal gain. The students interest are low priorities to them.


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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
74. I can get behind dumping standardized tests
Requiring school boards consist entirely of the students' parents less so, given how ban-happy the louder parents around here tend to be about school libraries...
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
30. Pair elementary schools--making one K-3, and the other 4-6, then ...
eliminate junior high altogether (ha, I wish).

About the pairing: due to an oddity in my district, this is how my kids went to elementary school. I was skeptical (though I had chosen the program), but it turned out to be the best thing ever. Schools can concentrate their resources much more effectively: jump ropes, library books, supplies, desks geared to K-3 students only in one place, so each school doesn't have to dissipate their resources, spreading them across a population that otherwise would range from age 5 to 12: and then the whole thing gets duplicated at the next school. The tenor of the "condensed grade" schools is amazing: the oldest student a kindgergartener needs to interact with is still under 4 feet tall and nobody has boobs. Same for 4-6: it's an excellent age range to group together in a single school, and allows for all-school plays, concerts, and even curricula, etc. that are quite symbiotic. This is a win-win for budgets, curriculum, and resources.

I have ten million other suggestions, but my guests are about to arrive for dinner. To your health, everyone!

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
32. We'd need a society-wide effort
If I were president (or even Secretary of Education), I'd first rescind NCLB. I am convinced that it's a right-wing ploy to make kids HATE learning, and who benefits from that, huh?

I'd also use my bully pulpit to criticize the dumbing down of America: dumb television, dumb movies, dumb political commentators, dumb newscasts that provide no depth or analysis, dumbed-down textbooks, low expectations for what children can accomplish, over-emphasis on sports and under-emphasis on the arts.

I would also call together all the media moguls and urge them to shape up, to present content that intelligent people might actually want to watch. Intelligent and entertaining are not mutually exclusive. Urge them to have characters in popular programs reading and otherwise getting excited about learning.

I would fund public broadcasting at 100% so that it wouldn't have to rely on corporate sponsorships.

Along with the U.S. Olympic team, the winners of the national science fair, the highest scorers in the Putnam math exam, the winner of the national spelling bee, and any young person who was known to excel in literature or the arts would get an invitation to the White House. I would let the nation know that statements such as "My kid doesn't need to know that" or "You read too much" were uncool.

I would urge parents to get involved in their schools the RIGHT WAY, not by complaining if the teacher disciplines their obnoxious brat (this kind of "involvement" has become increasingly common) but by riding herd on their school board and demanding a calm, positive atmosphere and a challenging curriculum.

The rest would be difficult, since we do not have a national school system but thousands of little ones. However, I would create state committees of the most successful teachers in each state (measured in intangible terms of inspiring their students) to devise statewide curricula for each grade and subject--not in NCLB terms, but in general terms. No "education" experts or administrators would be allowed.

For example, the fourth grade social studies curriculum could be stated as "Students will learn about the history, geography, natural environment, and famous people of their state, along with an age-appropriate survey of how their state is governed." That would be the requirement. It would be up to the teacher to implement it however s/he saw fit, although there would be a list of suggested materials.

Every professor who taught teacher certification courses or graduate courses in education would be required to return to the classroom every five years and teach real students, changing places with someone who was a current classroom teacher. I bet teacher certification curricula would be redesigned FAST.

I'd have everyone take the same challenging curriculum up to tenth grade, only it would be more like twelfth grade in terms of content. Then students could decide whether they wanted to take one of three tracks: science and math, arts and humanities, or vocational, which would consist of a mixture of classes and part-time employment in real jobs. Second chances for those who regretted their choices would be offered through the community college system.

College would NOT be for everyone. All that does is dumb down college. It would be open to everyone, regardless of finances, who showed a HIGH level of talent AND interest in one of the two academic tracks at a high level. Other students would have further education that was in line with their talents and interests.

I guess all my suggestions boil down to a nationwide attitude adjustment.



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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. +1
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. You've given this a lot of thought. Are you a teacher?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. No, but I'm a former college professor who taught a lot of graduates
of the school systems of different states.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
70. Terrific post -- !!!
:)
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
33. I would de-consolidate schools and end standardized testing.
Those would be where I would start.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
44. Reduce power of teacher unions
and increase power of elected school committees. It is the only to ensure public input.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. What are you talking about? Unions have little power.
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 11:16 PM by tonysam
They are far too often nothing more than social clubs whose leaders are completely in bed with the districts.

I know from where I speak; I was betrayed by my union.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #47
91. Not in Rhode Island
between the teacher unions and the public employee unions, they are driving the state into bankruptcy.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. And you know what exactly about Teachers Unions?
Teachers have the right to organize same as anyone else. Are you encouraging them to give up their rights?
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
45. Stop buying the neocon meme that it's broken (nt)
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. aside from the fact that it is broken, i might agree with you...
but continue sticking your head in the sand.

i've heard fingers in the ears while yelling "la la la la la" works good too.

peace, out...
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. It was broken with intent
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 07:54 AM by quaker bill
Classic republican management, first you gut the funds and the staffing, then you load up with massive quantities of "accountability" paperwork, add some high stakes testing, valdate and adjust the testing standards to assure a desired level of failure, defund some more, throw unaccountable money at the private sector, layoff more staff, and then once the desired level of failure is achieved, you complain "its broken", and "its a waste of taxpayer dollars".

This may age me a bit, but when I went to school, they had books, paper, pencils, money for field trips, art classes, music classes, all provided free, without need of "Sally Foster" sales and bakesales. This was a while ago, but not all than long, as my kids attended class in the same buildings, and my granddaughter may yet do so. But now, there is a fundraiser for everything, and if the kid walks in the door short of anything (pencils, paper, glue....) the school has nothing to replace it with.

WE need to stop looking for cheap answers, pay some damn taxes, and fund the schools.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #52
60. Public education is not a broken system.
It IS, however, being destroyed from within by neoliberals and "venture philanthropists" who want to create a two-tiered society.

If they are allowed to get their way, few people will be able to read and write except for the rich.

Education, along with unionization, is the main factor in upward economic mobility.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #60
71. On the whole, I would agree... however there are some broken urban districts
Detroit, where I once worked/taught, among them. We are losing generations of kids in some places - and in these places the two tier - with a huge band at the bottom - already exists.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #45
75. Haven't attended or taught classes lately, I see. (nt)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
53. I think most people could list any number of things to improve schools. But I think it's not the
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 03:47 AM by Hannah Bell
core problem.

What is "school" for? IMO, it's to transmit information, skills, etc. to kids so they're able to participate as full & respected members of their society.

The problem is that there's no clear link between school success & finding a valued place in the social order. Nor is it easy for kids to see how much of what's taught in school is valued by society (& often they're right, i.e. the things they're taught *aren't* generally valued, or aren't valuable) or how it's part of a path to a life of dignity (because it isn't, necessarily).

This is partly to do with kids' influences & limited perspective, but a lot of it is very real; they're reacting to the *real* social conditions they're brought up in.

The fact is that there *is* no valued place in the social order for a big percent of the population. This is not simply a matter of individual characteristics (John has a bad attitude, Jill can't spell, so they can't get good jobs & respect & material items symbolic of valued status, too bad). It's a structural condition of our society, & it warps *all* institutions & human interactions.

What I'm trying to say is that some folks have it backwards; they say poor schooling is responsible for the decline of our economy, or for under/unemployment, or crime, so we need to *fix* schooling.

The fact is, the structure of the economy is the root cause of poor schooling. If there were an economic need for lots of engineers, or rocket scientists, or cancer researchers or medieval scholars -- investment would be made to produce them. As investment was made, e.g., in schooling for the war & post-war boom.

Structurally, a large part of the population is economic surplus, the "reserve army of labor" whose economic position is precarious, poorly paid, casual, & denigrated as valueless. There's no respected, valued position for a large % of the population to occupy, even if they all were Rhodes scholars.

This is the root problem, IMO. The present ENGINEERED move to charters & then to full privatization is going to make things worse, not better, & is a symptom, not a cure. "Improving education" is the cover story for a change mandated by economics, not desire to help kids.

Children are sensitive beings hard-wired to learn. But they learn *everything* their social existence teaches them, & ours is teaching them they're not needed.



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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #53
62. Agree . . . especially that kids want to learn and IMO are turned off by the
methods of teaching and what is being taught -- a corporate agenda ...

Kids can teach themselves given the necessary materials -- put them in a library and

watch them go.

Give them a computer --

Kids won't all be interested in the same subjects at the same time --

but learning is circular.

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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #53
72. economic surplus
"Structurally, a large part of the population is economic surplus, the "reserve army of labor" whose economic position is precarious, poorly paid, casual, & denigrated as valueless. There's no respected, valued position for a large % of the population to occupy, even if they all were Rhodes scholars.


Your statement surely seems to be true, and presuming it is, I'd suggest a reservation type of land grant for folks who aren't served by the system, a place where they can have sovereignty and not be subject to the economic or financial exploitation that today occurs where the uber-rich and their corporations of many different logos, and their employee managers, the highly educated, parasitize anyone and everyone they can, including the poor, in any and everyway they can, including an abusive and compulsory private and public school system.

The U.S. has done it before with the Indians. It can also be done with those that society (including school) has chewed up and spit out, and who themselves desire a different life from being the financial mark or patsy of the Top 400 families.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
77. Very thought-provoking post.
For several decades my work has revolved around urban education/schooling in some of the most dysfunctional systems in the country. On a district/institutional level - I think I often see the forest - and can see on a much smaller scale manifestations of what you describe.

For example, in the early nineties in Detroit there were two big societal realities that kept kids in a sort of magical thinking per when I grow up I'm going to make a lot of money and don't need to focus on school or learning now... First was that many students still had some older family member working for good pay, and often no more (if even) than a high school diploma working in the auto industry. While those jobs were starting to go away... the lack of connect between being able to earn and education was there.

Simultaneously... the local economy was deteriorating and many of my students were already also hitting despair as their families were sinking further into poverty... and adapting to a 'any means to get by' mentality which was spreading at the time when the 'crackwars' (turf wars and epidemic level, imo, of escapism by crack) were going strong. This had twin perverse effects: on the one hand: what does it matter if I get an education... "I am going to end up stuck in the same place whether or not I do well in school..." coupled with "The only folks I see making money are making from 'the trade.'" The most active economic activity many of these students were exposed to had to do with drug dealing. Most of the more productive economic activity in the region was either centered in a very small area of Down Town Detroit, or had moved far into suburbs.

Throw all of this into the blender of community psyche as it surrounds the realm of public schools, and it often seemed as though we were 'at battle' just to get our kids to keep striving per education.

Then add to the mix what I referred to the other day per the humongous mess that was the district (that even back then seemed to be more about maintaining the institutuion than about educating kids)... what a horrific mess. What a tragedy.

All that said - your post... makes me realize that while looking at an urban district level I can see the trees and the forest... at a much more macro level... I have been mired looking at trees and am missing the forest. Your post gives me a great deal to ponder.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
54. Pay scientists more than sports stars.
Kids aren't stupid. They see the double standard between models, football stars and soulless corporate greedheads making millions and the guy working on fusion energy who makes about $115,000. Or their teacher who makes $32,000. And they conclude that education is worthless.

Call talking heads on their anti-intellectualism. My grandfather was totally blue collar but could rattle hundreds of poems off from memory, was active in local politics and dreamed all his life about being able to travel and experience foreign cultures.

If kids don't come to school with the attitude 1.) that learning is worthwhile 2.) that they can achieve their goals if they work hard and 3.) that their teacher is on their side and worthy of respect then no school on earth, no genius teacher, no amount of funding is ever going to make that child learn a damn thing he or she doesn't want to learn.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
55. I don't think the current system is fixable.
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 07:42 AM by LeftyMom
The whole idea that 20+ kids are all ready to learn the same thing in the same time at the same way only makes sense if you disregard any experience with actual children you may have.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Children have not changed
The system was reasonably successful for nearly 200 years. There is nothing about the phenomena you accurately observe that precludes a good public education, as such has been delivered here over and over again quite successfully, and is regularly delivered successfully around the world. Their kids are not more uniform than ours.

Why did I choose to move into a neighborhood with a "good school"? Because a "good school" existed, but also because "poor schools" exist and are to be avoided. Why has the "good school" always been a "good school" since the time I attended it? Why have the "bad schools" been bad for as long as I have known of them. It is clear that a great number of kids have walked these halls over the decades. Sampling variability would suggest that all schools would have a "good class" or two now and then, if the error was as systemic as you suggest. The error is not systemic, it is methodical.

One factor that consistently explains the vast bulk of variability in outcome is money. The local "good schools" are in higher economic class neighborhoods, the "bad schools" tend to be located in and serve lower economic class neighborhoods.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
89. Is the income an independent or dependent variable?
Most people with high incomes are educated, liked being educated, and like being educated. Poor yet well-educated people tend to have kids who are good students.

People who lucked into high incomes or who were essentially forced to go to school have kids who don't necessarily do so well.

Replace "high income" with "educational achievement" and you realize that there's a whole lot of overlap--just as there's a whole lot of overlap between "income" and "race", making this a difficult knot to untie. Most like to focus on the "high income" interpretation because it means there's a societal solution, and most education researchers already tend to think this is the case; confirmation bias affects their choice of default hypothesis. But some studies show that "educational achievement" is probably the better choice of variable.

If the parents' educational achievement matters more than income, then we get a different set of solutions. We've assumed that income matters more than income for 40 years, and we've tried I don't know how many different solutions, most of which have affected outcomes at the margins.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. It worked in previous generations, and it could work now.
The problem is with inappropriate curriculum and politics infecting the system.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #59
86. It only worked for some kids. Same as now. nt
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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
58. make helicopter parents sit in a room and decide whose child deserves better.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
61. For one, repair the schools and properly fund them . . .
Edited on Fri Jan-01-10 11:22 AM by defendandprotect
Federal government should be doing more funding, especially with many states now in near

bankruptcy due to tax cuts for rich --

Remember reading that at some point in our history, our Federal budget for schools contained

money for the CIA's hidden budget -- as much as 50% of the education budget!!

Needless to say, get rid of Charter schools -- we should not be financing them.

Teach a broad liberal education -- not a corporate education.

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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
81. Fund it.
Stop making it dance to the tune of for-profit testers with unproven methodologies.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. We already spend more money per student
Than every nation currently out competing us (and I'm pretty sure every nation on earth but I can't find the figures right now).

Money isn't going to solve the problem.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. We should spend more per student...
...being a capitalistic society.

We need to train and hire more teachers per student, and provide better textbooks, rather than trying to turn schools into faster-better-cheaper corporate daycare.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
82. What, no response?
You ask for ideas, and I give you multiple times I've offered ideas, plus numerous links to other organizations that have been offering ideas for years...

Are you really interested? I'll try again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8605109&mesg_id=8607074
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
83. End charter schools & require all administrators to teach at least one class.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
87. Require every politician
to send his/her kids to a public school in the district they represent.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-01-10 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
90. Bring back self-contained classrooms for Behavior Disordered students.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
92. we should boot the incorrigible, rotten, violent chronic thugs
The kind of kids who are drug dealers, bullies, and intentionally disruptive toward the teachers and other students. I mean the people who do it chronically, over and over again. Give them the boot. Permanent expulsion. No education. No future.
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Blecht Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
94. Tax the fuck out of the rich
90% for every penny "earned" for the top 5% incomes is a start. Spend it liberally on education.
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