I'd rather be killed by a terrorist

than watch my nation and my people choose to live like cowards.

I'm pretty sure most everyone I love or care about feels the same way.

Americans used to say things like "Give me liberty or give me death."

now it's something more like "I'll put up with any indignity just keep me safe."

It's just one more part of the elite plan to defeat the American middle class psychologically.

this is because they know we are the last thing standing in the way of their dream: global fascism.

I love Obama, but the problem is too big to lay at the feet on one man.

If you are angry at him for not being able to do more, I understand because I get those feelings too.

I just think we should stop using him as a scapegoat and foil for our anger at what is happening right now.

That's the same trick they've always used to divert anger away from those who really deserve it.

The one and only reason that things are so bad right now is that the elite do not fear us.

They do not fear any retribution for their crimes against humanity.

and humanity continues to give them no reason to fear.

and considering the seriousness of the subject matter the snarkiness is out of place.

if you disagree, you can make your points.

a lot of people are thinking about this. It's a big part of the national zeitgeist right now whether you want to deal with it or not because people are hurting and the veil is slipping.

If you don't feel the sense of urgency that others feel, fine.

but shooting down people for saying something in a few straight forward sentences instead of 50 drab paragraphs replete with clumsy Anglo-Saxon verbal embroidery is lame.

psuedo-intellectualism does not move people, easily understood statements do, especially when those statements speak to the moment.

There has been another great shift in the conversation, and that is people outside of the left leaning blogs are now discussing the unhealthy nature of unbridled capitalism. This is a very good sign.

I would call it propaganda.

Oh, and I am in complete agreement with the OP. I don't know anyone who is buying it anymore.

You can't really discuss these issues dispassionately...at least not and mean anything.

Stylistic questions aside, what is your feeling about the substance of the OP?

it's easy for me to agree with the OP now but about to die? I don't know. It's simply theoretical to me at this point in time.

Who knows how they'd see things if there own life was actually in danger? Or at its end?

In my case, I think it would be like the old Woody Allen routine where he thought he was dying and his life was flashing before his eyes...and then he realized that the life that was flashing before his eyes was actually SOMEBODY ELSE'S life...

:eyes:

Rec

It is as simple as that.

Obama gets no pass from me because he has not fought for the correct side in any of the major issues - just for the ponies.

The thoroughbreds are still owned lock, stock and barrel by our corporate rulers. With his help.

However, "humanity continues to give them no reason to fear" is partly true because our only real way to fight back is to elect better leaders.

We tried to do just that.

The one we got isn't doing the right thing (on practically any front) and that means that we're defeated and the elite truly have nothing to fear.

Obama blocked our one chance to fix anything.

Yours is the most defeatist and cynical post I've seen recently.

Our tools for fighting a corrupt government are many.

They begin with protests.

Then general strikes.

Then civil disobedience, with the willingness to be thumped on the head and arrested.

And go from there.

The Civil Rights Movement didn't achieve change by waiting to elect new leaders. Those who wanted change simply showed up on time and walked in unison. They sang, and spoke, and showed themselves. Time after time after time. Weary day after weary day. Bloodied, cursed, humiliated but never quashed.

Shame on you. Shame, shame, shame. This is a democracy. The power lies with the people, if they will stand for something and stand in solidarity.

However, most of them don't fix anything.

March all you want; they don't care. If you get in their way, they now have mass-pain-projection weapons to stop you. And terrorism laws to use against you (remember the RNC?)

A general stike might have some real effect, but only if everyone is in on it.

Civil disobedience is laudable, but when it works, it works because it changes the minds of those in power -- or it changes enough other minds to put different people in power.

Those with the tanks, troops, weapons, laws, cops, judges, and prisons on their side always win.

Always.

You have to replace them or change their minds.

that I don't want to cross here or in this way.

I think you know what I mean.

and many would not shoot their own people. General strikes and mass protests are the only thing that usually gets reform done. Why do you think France is so far to the left? Do you think the leaders did that for us? No, we asked, they refused, so we shut down the country from time to time and sometimes the leaders concede...

All - many = some-that-would.

Some of those weapons can take out a whole lot of folks while being operated by just one of the some-that-would.

Setting that aside, I think a general strike will be very hard to carry out in the US, divided as it is. But it would be a great idea.

Protests? Millions marched in cities all over the world before the Iraq invasion and Dubya said, "I don't listen to focus groups."

The idea that politicians who are screwing us raw -- on purpose -- will change their minds if they see that a lot of us are really unhappy isn't much to pin one's hopes on.

Right now, we do not have representative government -- they do what's good for the rich regardless of elections.

We do not have the army on our side -- they work for the murderers in DC regardless of how they feel about it.

We do not have military weapons -- those militia types who think their hunting guns will mean anything against the army are just plain nuts.

We do not have a party -- most of the Dems clearly aren't in favor of democracy or equality. Surely the current president isn't.

So we have the remote possibilies of general strike, revolution, or dumb luck.

"The idea that politicians who are screwing us raw -- on purpose -- will change their minds if they see that a lot of us are really unhappy isn't much to pin one's hopes on." that is why we must strike and hit their wallets. Money is the only thing they hear.

I'm with you, there.

That and reggie's statement that "money is the only thing they hear" pretty much sums it up. The only alternative I can see is to move to another country (but which one?) if one is lucky enough to be able to afford it. And, if one can afford to move, there is the issue of qualifying for citizenship (which, of course, isn't an issue for the rich).

Of course, there is always the option of staying here and fighting, which at this point means continuing to pay tax dollars into a system that is designed to screw us over because general strikes and revolutions just aren't going to happen. At least, not as long as long as the American people still have 'American Idol' to entertain them. Now cut off their cable nationwide for a day and I'll guarantee there will be a huge protest. To restore their cable. Other than that, most people just can't be bothered.

Very funny, true, and sad all at once.

Here in America however, the military has never once failed to kill anybody they are told to. Our history is just full of cases of both private thugs, police, and the military being sent into peaceful protests/strikes and slaughtering as many people as they could.

I believe that French troops are lessl likely to fire on their own people than American troops are.

I'm sure I'm not the only one unsure of how to assist something like that.

Hmm - about as well as protests.

Protests and other direct action can be very effective, and has been, in many instances. If all you see are a few mass marches covered by the MSM where the odds are awful to begin with (RNC, etc.), then you're buying the bill of goods they want to sell you.

turning Obama into a scapegoat for not being suicidal enough to try to go toe to toe with an ancient monolithic power structure doesn't really help much.

the right answer is harder, less emotionally satisfying. But I fully understand the emotions behind what you are saying.

But at the end of the day, we could impeach Obama and the elite would still be kicking our ass if not a little harder.

who knows, maybe he is just a velvet glove, maybe a good guy with the right intentions but just not bat-shit crazy enough to do what really needs to be done.

I'm trying to keep my mind open.

"Obama blocked our one chance to fix anything."

What was "our one chance to fix anything"?

I doubt when push came to shove the majority of Americans would agree with you. Especially because the definition of the word "coward" is very much open to interpretation.

people are conditioned daily from birth by the media to be fearful, emotionally insecure, needful and insatiable.


you are right that 'coward' is sort of any easy word to throw out, but we have to get started somewhere. What I am saying is maybe when we are ready to suffering incredible indignities like being stripped naked by strangers just to travel on a fucking plane, we are becoming a cowardly people.

look at the protests in Iran.... Americans are just lazy and not willing to fight for themselves.

"suffering incredible indignities like being stripped naked by strangers just to travel on a fucking plane"
We became a cowardly people years before this. We sat idly by all these years while the Patriot Acts wiped away the Constitution. Since that happened the idea that it is suddenly insufferable to be "stripped naked by strangers" is a joke! You can't walk into a courthouse in your hometown today without giving up your Constitutional rights, you can't even walk down the street. Why would you think that you could just walk onto a plane? Hell you don't even have Constitutional rights in your own home. Just like driving, air travel is a privilege not right. No one is forcing you to fly, but even if you drive you no longer have a "right to privacy".

As a people we are no longer willing to suffer for our liberty. The lack of "volunteers" for the military proves it. The fact that even protesters allow themselves to be herded into "zones" proves it.

sucking bed wetters. Turn off your TVs, you'll feel much better without the propagandists pulling your strings.

Let him suck up to Bush at every turn and haven't prosecuted him for his part in the lies that continue to destroy the world.

when do brits protest? they bitch about our strikes fucking up their vacations.... now the germans know how to unionize, and the Danes know how to strike....

...when your intelligence agents blew up a Greenpeace ship and killed an innocent fisherman in the process. Your government has never even acknowledged it, mush less apologized and paid restitution.

I am talking about protests led by the people, strikes and the like, AGAINST the French government.

Best advice I've read here in months.
:thumbsup:

I try turning mine off but... Desperate Housewives... it's so good.

;)

("Is life so dear as to be purchased at the cost of chains and slavery?

"I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death."

Patrick Henry)

Possibly misquoted, but I think it's pretty close.

:hi:

"It is better to die on your feet rather than live on your knees!"

Also attributed to Emiliano Zapata

than to be killed by a policeman free to act "preemptively" in a police state.

...then you are fairly safe.

We are not a police state....yet of course.

the USA is a police state. if not why did DARE drug awareness resistance education POLICE OFFICIERS teach us to rat out our own parents for smoking grass when we were 5 in kindergarden and then for every year until high school? the fucking hitler youth did shit like that to get kids to narc on their parents and friends..... roadblocks to search for drugs is a sign of a police state, no knock warrants by swat teams for being accused of possessing and selling cannabis flowers to adults, asset forfeiture laws that allow cops to keep what they seize even if you are found innocent of the drug charges they lay on you. drug testing to get a job if the place you work for wants any kind of governemnt contract. The war on drugs helped create a fascist police state, the war on terror is expanding it, now free speech exists only in certain zones which are usually miles from the people we are protesting against, we can be busted, kidnapped in the night, and taken to a cell with no trial and that does not violate law. The govt can find out what books we read at the library with no warrant..... what more do you need for a police state?

Maybe I need to redefine "terrorist" for myself. :shrug:

who bank roll religious nut jobs to kill innocent people so they can manipulate us with fear

This helps distract from the fact that they have been willfully poisoning us for decades with carcinogenic materials so they could make a fortune off us once we got sick.

WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIIIIIIEEEEEEE!!!

I don't get it.

Live until you die. The clock ticks. Every second is yours. You can choose to live until you die or worry yourself to death and be paranoid all the time. If you choose to be paranoid for the rest of your life, what kind of existence is that? Really.

Don't worry about it in between. If it is your time, it is your time. If it is not your time, it is not.

LIVE!!!!

is what a TRUE patriot would say.

I want names. Not just some elite no-named group.

Obama is a person - a leader of our country - that we can direct our anger too. He is in a position to do something - if he chooses. If I can't direct my anger to him and his administration - who do I direct it to? Who really deserves it? Who has instituted this elite plan to defeat the American Middle Class psychologically?

Don't just say the Repugs? Give me a name that I can direct my anger to. Tell me who is plotting to defeat the middle class.

They are? Who are they?

Is there a secret group that meets secretly - plotting to do this to us - planning global fascism.

Does Obama take orders from them? Is he afraid of them?

No - I'm going to direct my anger toward Obama. We elected him and gave the Dems - the Executive branch and the House and the Senate. He made campaign promises to us. We believed in him. We came through for him. So now it is up to him now to come through for us.

I'm going to continue to put pressure on him and the Dems to do what we elected them for. Now when I get calls to donate to the Dem this or that - I let them have it. No more money til I see some payback for the money I already donated.

Maybe if their coffers begin to dry up they will understand that the movement that got them in office in the first place is still powerful and can break them as well.

I still happen to have faith in Obama. He has an insurmountable task at hand - with the crap that BushCo left behind for him. He could only do so much - so fast. But and this is a big BUT - if they don't start making good on their promises by the time 2012 comes along - I'll be looking for someone else to support.

I still believe - but need to start seeing some substantive change to continue to believe.

Eric Prince, certain members of the Rochafeller clan, the Morgans, the Bush clan, the CIA and any recent directors of the CIA.

also the Carlyle Group, Trilateral Commission, Club of Rome, the Fabian Society, the Family, PNAC etc: these groups are very secretive but you can find info on members if you are into research.

and yes these groups do meet in secret and there are such things as conspiracies.

you can go on ebay right now and for a pretty penny buy official Bohemian Grove registers with the names of all members for the last hundred years or so -that would be an incomplete but very comprehensive list of elite politicians, bankers and captains of industry who share very undemocratic beliefs -and if you've never heard of the Bohemian Grove you should google it and research it, because it is very real and not just a goofy internet meme.

the truth is that pretty much all the really elite persons and groups go through A LOT of trouble to stay out of the public eye. They prefer to let presidents and prime ministers take the heat for them. But they are there, and if you care to find out, you can start learning about who they are and what they are doing.

an easy way to get started is look up any major corporation that you think is doing ill in the world and find out who their CEO and board members are.

Obama was allowed to win by these people because he doesn't pose much of a threat to them and also to give the public false hope for the meaningful change that they work daily to make impossible,

I don't think he is one of them, but they control so many levers of power that they can thwart just about any good thing he tries to do.
I'm not making excuses, I'm trying to face the ugly underbelly of the beast.

that will save us!!!! (sarcasm)

for the kids trying to build up their own gangs. They knew that the world was run by gangs who kill to get what they want and were willing to do so, or die or go to jail, themselves.

I don't care if this post gets deleted, I only hope that you get to see it first.

If you had followed your statement with something like "I respect that they saw the world as it really is but I worked with them to find other ways of dealing with it" you might have a leg to stand on. Or even "I respected them as individuals, even though I did not support what they did." Just something other than the garbage that you just posted.

I am completely in awe of what a ridiculous comment that was, and I don't even know where to begin discussing how much is wrong with your statement and how sad I am to read it. Actually, it'd probably turn into a thread hijack so I'm just going to hope that there was more to your sentiment that just didn't make it into the post, and leave it at that.

FWIW, I'm a social worker and have worked with these kids as well.


:evilfrown:

go to the university, and help their communities, but many were not interested. At least they knew how the world was run compared to the cluelessness of many of the wealthier students i was in high school with.

Without the second part, it sounded (perhaps only to me, I'll admit) like an approval of the life they chose and the things they did.

I'm familiar with how difficult it is to get kids out of that rut, and I give you credit for having tried to do so.


:toast:

Youth and frankly, anyone, responds to being respected far more than being mocked. See how well the left netroots responded to being mocked by Rahm - we just straightened right up! Yeah, right.

most Americans have no idea how cult-like DC is....

Maybe a plan to make up bulletins of the Bohemian Grove registers telling people who to direct their anger at, ie. who's really to blame for the mess that the world is in, by following the money back to the elite who make the decisions for the rest of us, in secret.
Post the lists in grocery stores, laundromats, any public place where they have a bulletin board.
Give the real culprits the light of day public recognition they truly deserve. :evilgrin:

Can't we help END these CONTER-PRODUCTIVE Occupations and use the WAR FUNDING for Domestic issues?

Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.

the sentiments of Ben Franklin.

If you really mean it.

Because they were really working on our giving up our liberties, trying to be able to act without warrants, deprive people of the right to counsel or the right to a hearing, claiming they could detain people indefinitely.

That's why I'll always support Obama - because he said we could keep those ideals and fight terrorism. That's enough for me, in the big picture.

Airline precautions don't bother me, because they don't really tend that way. As long as they are practical.

Though it appears that there's only so much that can be done. The shoe bomber did his thing then we had to check shoes. The crotch bomber showed it could be hard to check every possible place where bombs could be hidden.

...Obama is not "keeping those ideals and fighting terrorism." He is perpetuating the intrusive tyranny of Bush!

Don't you see, it is right in front of your face in the heart of what you stated in your post!

The "underwear bomber" hides something in the place where the sun don't shine, and now all Americans are subject to exposing their nudity on what you know will become an archived database of every person who ever flies.

There is a line!

I get into TGV's (the high speed trains that link Paris, Marseille, Amsterdam, London, Berlin, etc. and they search no one. Terrorists could just as easily kill a bunch of people in a TGV as in a plane....

in London and Spain.

the high speed ones, for now, have never been targeted. And indeed we are not searched to get on trains anyway.

Too weird: Wolf Blitzer now reports there's an "iPhone APP" to RATE Airport Security and/or TURN-IN and REPORT someone who breaches airport security.

TIPS again anyone? :grr: :thumbsdown:

I've said before, and I'll say it begin, because it seems that damn few people hear it - but reacting in ridiculous and ludicrous fear is EXACTLY what the terrorists want from us. They WANT us to bankrupt ourselves trying to increase our safety level from 99.6% to 98.7%. They WANT us to shred our constitution to limit our freedoms.

The best thing that a President could do for us is to say "We are not going to live in fear; the current system is amazingly safe, and we are not going to bankrupt the country or give up our freedoms in the interest of 'safety' - we Americans were built by men willing to die for the freedoms we say we treasure, and we should be willing to die as well."

As Ben Franklin said, "Those who give up their freedoms for safety* deserve neither".



* or if not safety, something similar. My memory fails me at the moment.

Then again, we all will die anyway. When it's time, it's time. No avoiding death.

Just a few simple sentences instead of a bunch of wordy paragraphs. They're easier to read. :hi:

Words right from my mouth, and those of everyone I know.

Furthermore, I am equally as disgusted by the lack of introspection. The unwillingness to wonder why we were even hated in the first place. AND to be willing to make changes in the event that we may actually be the cause of our own dislike.

Great post. Thank you.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Very true indeed

I’m going to comment on a number of posts scattered in several sub-threads above.:

“And go from there.” – Funny how, in a nation born in an act of violence, we are so reluctant to admit that, at some point, circumstances may dictate nothing less.

“Those with the tanks, troops, weapons, laws, cops, judges, and prisons on their side always win….Always.” – I couldn’t disagree more. We’re going to have our well-armed high-tech butts handed to us by a bunch of Afghani tribal members with nothing but rifles, RPGs, and simple explosive devices. I remember well something a counterinsurgency instructor once told me: “In the end, the insurgents always win.”

“I hate sloganeering and clichés” – Isn’t it sad that a description of our government and the problems we face can be so accurately rendered using nothing but slogans and clichés. But of course, our "leaders" campaign on slogans and clichés, so why should we be surprised that their terms of office can be so well described with the same rhetoric.

“…our only real way to fight back is to elect better leaders.” – I couldn’t disagree more. We elect “leaders” (I prefer to think of them as the hired help) within the system. The system has been corrupted and now perpetuates corruption. It is only by going outside the system and creating fear of consequences that we will change government. I don’t remember who said, “Governments should fear the people; people should not fear their government.” Things are the wrong way around right now. Simple, non-violent and decisive action directed at the economic wellbeing of the elite can create fear. I would argue that the only way to avoid violence later is to employ decisive non-violence now.

“General strikes and mass protests are the only thing that usually gets reform done.” – Correct! LBJ and Congress didn’t give the people the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act, the people organized and forced it down their throats. They are not part of LBJ’s legitimate legacy, he was only being what he should have been—a tool of the people.

“Our conversation is now dangerously close to a threshold that I don’t want to cross here or in this way. I think you know what I mean.” – Agreed. DU is not the forum to advocate violence. But I think we all know, even if we fear the truth, that it was groups like the Black Panthers and the Weather Underground, lurking in the background, that served as a constant reminder to Power of what might be next if they ignored the non-violent protests. By using forums like DU to encourage non-violence in the short term, DU can be a force for preventing violence in the long term.

It’s a pity that activism, once synonymous with the Democratic Party, is now rejected without discussion. It’s no wonder that Power doesn’t fear the People—there really isn’t anything about us to take seriously anymore.

We the Sheople.

I was talking about when a government goes to war against its own people ("laws, cops, judges, and prisons") -- which we're getting pretty close to.

The Afghanis may not be a good example for the world at large. They've got geography on their side -- mountains they can hide in and their opponents can't drive tanks through.

My ancestors were willing to die to make America an independent company not ruled by the tyranny of a monarchy. I too would prefer to risk death rather than see their efforts go to waste as we become a country ruled by the tyranny of fear. "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."

travel and call the TIPS line and anonymously report them as terrorists when they're on the way to the airport so that they'd receive the maximum screening every time they want to fly?

Deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Making them fear us and making them pay for their crimes will certainly change things.
And the pain will be incredible.
They would rather kill us than have to feed us and pay us a decent wage.
And they are doing that, with healthcare, war, etc.

The other thing we can do is to make them irrelevant.
Stop borrowing their money to buy shit we don't need anyway, and paying them interest for the privilege.
That's how the rich get richer.
Stop patronizing the companies that are particularly evil.
For example, I can't believe how many people around here don't give a damn that the movie Avatar was produced by Fox, and are perfectly willing to give Rupert Murdoch their hard-earned money just be entertained for 2 hours.
Stop working for them, stopping being nice to them, stop driving them around and holding doors open for them.
Show them the contempt they show us at every turn.
Spit in their food while they are watching, refuse them service if they treat you like the help, turn your backs on them the same way they do to everyone else.

Make them irrelevant.
They are, for the most part, unnecessary as it is.
We need to just show them, once and for all, that this is the case.
I'll go first...

Meaty and full of thoughtful posts.

'Tis better to die on your feet, than live on your knees...


:patriot:

was 90 years ago, and the French Revolution was 200+ years ago. There are damned few other examples of the people taking power away from the elites.

They are acting like ninnies, as they always do. We need a big heaping pile of get over ourselves.

I don't understand why people do get it. After all, it's right there in the song.

Land where nothing is free.

There have been a few changes since that song was written.

some of them are leaving now because they know that the people are now aware of who is doing what and some of them are making sure they get all they can now before the shit hits the fan. Some think that they won't be blamed just because they quit and went to work for the corporations,insurance companies, and they made sure they set it up for their investments to prosper them and their families while they block any and everything that will the American people..

and is just as much to blame as the others.He is blamed more because the buck stops at his desk and he has assumed responsibility.

The neo-cons are succeeding in making American a nation afraid of its own shadow.
They should change the last line of the national anthem.

the 'terrorists' are only excuse. If they truly hate us for our 'freedom' then why are we appeasing them by giving it up?

The were illegally wiretapping us before 9/11. This is all just an excuse to control us.

I for one am getting more pissed off by the day. Today NORAD brings down a plane because a man is locked in the bathroom in eleven minutes flat... where the fuck were they on 9/11?

Land Of The Cowards, Home Of The Enslaved.