Three pops to the forehead? (Tillman)

I have been around a lot of shooting.

And when I watch the computer re-enactment of the situation, I just don't get it.

At that distance, there is just no way that could happen.

I have never witnessed anything remotely like this .

But that is what the report claimed (I wish that I had a link).


on edit: Damn, I sure do write simple sentences. I wish I had gone to school. Oh, well, I will leave that business to Nance and Will and the gang.

That he would still be standing for all three shots, or something else?

a shot to the forehead cancels everything.

You would just not believe what body can do when hit in the forehead.

total deactivation of the cranial functioning would render a person. . .like dead?

Not a neurologist, just playing one on the internet.

Normally, somebody dies, the brain and CNS shut down. However, if you destroy or cut off that command system, then it can introduce errors. Limbs twitching, body parts trying to carry out movements, even what would seem to be seizures out of a "dead" body.

Anyway, I'm not sure what we're talking about. Wasn't Tillman shot in the back, hence their reason for burning his uniform?

Is how the SF Chronicle describes it.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL&type=printable

The odds of someone taking three hits to the forehead are between nil and none.

At 50-60 yards, it just could not happen.

There is just no way that he would have caught three straight-on at that distance.

When a person catches one in the forehead, they either drop or dance.

I have never seen someone hit that many times in the head at that range.

Maybe we need Arlen Specter to explain it to us.

I know you have one, I just forget what it is.

From the article:
> But there been numerous unfortunate cases of fratricide,
> and the parents have basically said,'OK, it was an unfortunate
> accident.' And they let it go. So this is — I don't know, these
> people have a hard time letting it go. It may be because of their
> religious beliefs."

That's ridiculous and demeaning. How about "these people" just don't want their kid's death used for a damn lie?

Hekate

story about Pat Tillman. Great article.

Thomas Jefferson wrote to John Adams once, "Sorry I wrote such a long letter. I didn't have time to write a short one."

It seems like you would have to see your target clearly to aim for a smaller part like that instead of the main body mass.

Also, did they expected al Qaeda and the Taliban to be wearing body armor, that they would have to aim for their head?

That does make it sound more like a politically convenient accident.

I wonder if any "private contractors" were in the area.

You couldn't do it if you tried.

Three simultaneous skull-shots are just not believable in open combat.

No effing way.

It would be impossible, unless he was already on the ground...sleeping or something.

What REMF directed the split platoon in such a half-assed way? If one shooter could put three rounds in Tillman's forehead, how the hell couldn't he tell Tillman was a friendly?? The smoke grenade should've rang alarm bells. How many Afghans have them? Why wasn't it immediately recognizable as US ordinace? (What GI doesn't know exactly what they look like?)

in the crotch of that river, all by themselves.?

I do believe that our Field Command is totally out to lunch.

How could this have happened on the relatively well-organized Afghan Theater?

I think that we are flying blind.

But shooting straight, goddammit.

OK, I am oughta here because I am well under the influence and pissed off.

From http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m16.htm

"The M16A2 semiautomatic rifle is the standard by which all military rifles of the future will be judged. This variant of the M16 fires a three-round burst in semiautomatic operation. The system incorporates an adjustable rear sight which corrects for both wind and elevation, a heavier barrel with 1-in-7 rifling, and a muzzle compensator to prevent muzzle climb during semiautomatic operation."

The article later gives the top speed as 800 rounds per minute, in what seems most likely to be this mode of operation, or 13.3 per second. All three would hit before a blink, in 0.225 seconds or so.

I am no expert, not by any means, but I don't think your question took into account the technical capacities of modern killing machinery.

Edit to add - The head shot that followed an unsuccessful chest shot is still very suspicious, but the 3-burst hit is not unlikely.

While I sure wasn't an 11B and have no CIB, I fired expert in both M-14 and M-16 and that burst mode is not intended to be tightly-grouped. It's intended to cover the target when aim is imprecise or (especially) when the target is moving. It just doesn't feel 'right' to me at all.

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The initial poster referred to body spasms making this improbable, but the rapid fire rate makes it likely that all three would strike nearly instantly. Recalculating, the interval between the first and third hit would be 0.15 second. As for how tightly the muzzle compensator configures those 3 rounds, I have not a clue. I think I heard the distance reported as being 35 yards, which, although it makes the 3 hits more likely makes the fact that the trigger was pulled at all even harder to explain.

But the general pattern with the three round burst is the second within a few inches of the first and the third a foot or more off. The gun might have been on a solid rest, or there might have been more than one person firing.

You cannot do it.

Think about it, a 3" X 2" burst?

As my time dragged on in SE Asia (39 months), I used to try all kinds of stuff.

I am the best shot that I know.

He would have have to been immobile to make that happen.

Maybe the report was false.

Maybe they just blew his head off.

I could believe that.

But three forehead shots?

No way.

So this is REAL FISHY.

Also if not all those rounds were from the same auto fire burst, they couldn't make three hits either unless the range was close enough to obviously see that this was an American. (This may be proof of murder rather than fratricide)

The scenario gets even fishier if the m16 used was on single fire.

The first hit would have made the target move significantly and change the orientation of the target for the subsequent shots. The shooter would have had to re-aim twice.


I've never fired a full auto, but if this were a .22 with a scope I wouldn't be able to put three shots into a head before that person hit the ground. With a .303 the head wouldn't even be attached by the third bullet.

I'm not a fantastic shot but i did good enough for a marksman merit badge, and I can say no one I've even read about could make the shot and still not identify the target as an American Soldier until after the third bullet.


If this is true about the three forehead shots, this is murder one, not just an accident.

"friendly fire". I have no idea if this incident represents incompetence or the fog of war. As with everything else, it's the cover-up that does the real damage.

As an aside, the fact that Army ranges could end up killing one of their own should be food for thought for all the people who advocate that we all carry concealed weapons to protect ourselves should we run across a mass murderer as at VT.