AC on CNN: 2nd Doctors Without Borders plane refused landing request tonight.

For the second night in a row a DWB plane is being refused landing requests. Last night the plane had to land in the DR and drive all supplies into Haiti.

Gov. Rendell on the other hand was able to negotiate a landing for a private flight to bring orphans back to PA. Tough call, but the orphans sound like they were safe and could have been cared for for a few more days where they were.

The medical supplies for the thousands of people dying were not allowed to land.

Double edged sword.

ETA: I don't know what the right choice is. Who can say? Seems odd though that DWB gets denied access to land twice while a gvmnt official works a way in.

spent so much time om scene assessment instead of well, they don't understand bringing people willy nilly and freelancing.

I sent them an email on that... a long email mind you.

Now I know some of the decisions are POLITICAL... see landing VIPs who need to show ugly mug, and it happens in every disaster.

When they show up, well you got all kinds of other issues...

But they are not trying to dis France, though I expect the scrams by later tonight.

If you still have it that is. I'm trying to learn and I appreciate your willingness to educate us N. :hi:

Scene assessment does things such as buildings, infrastructure, inroad, and prioritizes what needs to be done where.

ON a smaller scene, like a car crash you are looking for dangers such as gas on ground. power lines down, fires, jagged objects, and other dangers. Scale this up to this mess, and you are looking for damage patterns to tell you where your teams have the best chance to find victims. Your scouts are also looking for access points, and also starting to look for where you can set distribution points and talking to the locals to see what they think needs done.

I also told them that we really do not know how those decisions are made but it is not just to play favorites and offered to do this for them, without a political sword, and called them for not calling Honore on some of the things he's said so far.

Maybe tomorrow? Chaos will continue to reign until order can be established. Unfortunately it's not a rapid-sequence process.

1.- all the children are coming in with a lot of egos. Yes I love NGOs but I hate NGOs... especially the really SMALL ones... especially since they come in, don't tell anybody where they are, and many a times replicate things... did I mention egos? And what you are seeing with the finger pointing is exactly that. Imagine that by orders of magnitude on the ground. I really do not envy whoever is in charge... keeping the children playing nice will be ahem interesting.


2.- They have not been able to really penetrate beyond port au prince. Once they do, it is going to be bad.

The second wave is going to be really nasty... and yes people are dying preventable deaths, but things in the long term, like all those amputees, that is a nightmare nobody is even talking about in a serious manner. In third world countries amputees have little prospects, and prosthesis are a piece of your and my imagination.

The Mexican Red Cross ran a special program for that after the quake, it ran for ten years

to people. I just don't understand why a plan for handling international disasters is not in place? ie. X is in charge of Y and so on. I'm sure I'm oversimplifying things but...

in theory through the UN, who is getting a list of who is sending what so they can prioritize.

It is the extent of this, the scope that is a pain.

But the UN body coordinating so we do not get too many hospitals and not enough water purification plans was one of the lessons of the tsunami.

The Carrier, the USS Vinson, what do you think it is making? Water. It is also your fuel place for choppers, and things like that.

There are other Navies bringing water purification units.

So actually as chaotic as this looks, it is better than it could be... and the finger pointing is par for the course.

Water and food, they're up scaling every day... and here is the true reality of this. There are a few areas that WILL NEVER be reached by teams, for whatever reason.

:shrug:

Great info thanks!

the USN and other Militaries are taking choppers, now that the boots are on the ground, to LZs where they are unloading. and today, due to the really isolated areas, they actually did an airdrop... if they went there, they NEEDED to do this because the risk is very high of getting people on the ground killed.

I know that there is a danger in that as well, but it seems that push is coming to shove, very quickly.

Thanks again for the info.

but it is getting to that point.

I am wondering if they will do EMRATS...

These are nice yellow plastic bags with high energy bars and other sustaining things for a person, on a chute...

But that is the AF choice

If the little chutes fail--and some of them ALWAYS do--the falling packages could kill people, particularly since there's now no safe structures to take refuge in. If I were running the ops I might be inclined to take the risk, though bombing a friendly city (even with peanut butter) is risky. And there's still no guarantee they could deploy meaningfully more supplies that way, since one of the big bottlenecks is getting the stuff TO Haiti. That I have no idea about. Hence the current strategy of helicopter deployments, trucks, and drop points.

they did an actual, honest to goodness low level air drop today... not what people think one is... (your choppers) We are both talking the technical language.

So here is the balance, terminal velocity from EMRATS, or what is 20 ton crate?

The fact they did it today told me where things are... in some ways.

...not nearly enough water for that climate, but assuming that as a minimum...

You'd be talking a terminal velocity of about 22 feet per second unbraked.

I know...

situation.

disaster responses I have seen. And I thought the Tsunami was bad.

I had similar issues with TJ, except I had a border.

We had ONE airport with one access road...

And of course we assumed that if we were down, so was the US...

And don't get me started with San Diego Airport, and where it is built.

But as I said, we had roads, access roads and were connected to a continent. That makes a huge difference.

Oh and I forget, a plan... that was the plan, when we wrote it. Never implemented, and I hope it never is.

to organizations to help, and it appears that relief is so sparse. It's so sad and frustrating to witness. I don't recall ever seeing a disaster of this magnitude.

CNN pointed out that during the Tsunami, people were either dead or alive. There were no bodies laying under rubble, no crush wounds to deal with etc. which made priorities a bit easier to distinguish I suppose?

and this is something that people are also having a huge problem understanding living our comfortable lives in the US.

We really do not think about things like antibiotics (well except people without insurance)

And yes people still die in the US due to lack of that... but in places like Haiti people have really poor access to health care, if any during regular times. And things like dengue, malaria, TB and HIV have high rates.

Also you have all the issues with malnutrition. If you have a patient who is well fed with a crush injury, they will have a better chance to survive than somebody on the edge of starvation.

Oh and antibiotics... even before the quake, people died from a compound fracture and no antibiotics...

There are political reasons for this, but that make things that much harder.

To me the fighting and finger pointing... is a good sign... it happens every time about this stage of the game when things are going well.

I'll try to look at things from your perspective on the things going well point. Thank you.

view from having done some of this...

But usually when things are going disastrously wrong, see Katrina... the finger pointing starts by day 2...

And the ICRC reported today that while the situation is catastrophic some of the aid is starting to be felt.

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/haiti-earthquake-update-180110

I had to go to the Mexican media to find it and then I went to the source. And the ICRC is pretty much matter of fact.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7502815&mesg_id=7503195

I'm concerned that violence will come soon and derail efforts to help if food and water are not supplied ASAP. I'm very glad that aid is starting to materialize.

yes, some chutes fail, and yes, some of the EMRATS do reach terminal velocity... they will use them if they do... as truly a last measure. We are getting close to that point, and you may see it in 24 hours... since they did an honest to goodness air drop today. I don't mean short haul chopper jaunts, the technical definition of one. Though I suspect that is done for the second airport they are going to put up.

greatly if done right. I hope someone is listening to speak?

:shrug:

(Navy?) but it sounds like without actually having permission to do it. I know Gates said it was too dangerous to do the drops but I think he was referring to people fighting over it.
But the helicopters started doing it. (Maybe they thought dehydration and hunger were worse threats!) The helicopter would hover until everyone moved away and then made drops. There was some pushing to get to the things and some of the moms were holding babies... but no one was hurt and people shared what they got.

Here is what gets to me...when TV is interviewing someone and they say "They have no bandages or antibiotics left" and discuss how horrible it is. I wish they would say "We have gotten a report to the airport where the supplies are (or wherever) but they usually don't say anything like that. I have to believe they are doing that but I wish they would note that

involving a large plane, nets and all that.

These are short haul, helo drops.

Sorry, but I wanted to clarify this for you...

existed, i guess they're used to it.

haiti has the world's highest concentration of ngos per capita.

if something doesn't change SOON. :(

supplies they have with them being rerouted for a second time, after a scheduled landing time was given, just seems awful.

ETA: N, your insights and updates on all of this from the beginning have been great to read and follow, so thank you. I've learned a lot.

over here we are in the lull between two storms... it was NASTY earlier... and it will get nasty.

That they only have one runway, one tarmac and one ramp for all aircraft. They have a two hour window to land, unload and take off again. Delays on the ground will cause aircraft to be diverted.

The airport is the bottleneck for all relief ops right now.

Also, they're probably prioritizing large Air Force transports bringing in food and supplies over smaller passenger planes when they decide who gets to land.

but they had to do this with the ICRC hospital too.

WTF?

and the host government is not precisely one that does this shtick of taking care of its people in regular times, but you STILL need to work with the host government

Disclaimer:

1) I don't know if a reservation system is being used in Haiti, but it seems likely.

2) I don't know whether the DWB plane had a reservation (if they're being used).


I'm just suggesting that there may be a perfectly logical logistical reason for the denial.

The only reason planes are denied landing is if the flight before them has taken too long to unload.

The flights originated at McChord and picked up additional supplies at Langley. After off-loading supplies they loaded passengers including carried 180 wounded Haitians carrying them to Orlando.

It's probably true -- this is not a casual photograph -- it takes a lot of time and equipment to illuminate a 747 at night, in addition to backlighting the sign holders.



http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-01/17/c_13140079.htm

...and they've been parking 40 at a time.


If somebody didn't clear a spot in time...or if a higher-priority flight arrived...they might well have been denied clearance to land.

I suspect one of the reasons that they have been waved off is not meeting the time slot or not having the required fuel on board if they came direct from Europe. Also is there is no room on the field for any number of reasons, they could be waved off.

I tend to think its most likely not following the NOTAM requirements

There damn sure better be a damn good reason for the denial.

Whether or not YOU would agree with that reason, I have no idea.

would you agree with it if it wasn't?

??

I can't find it now though :( but it was very informative, including giving planes specific times to land, & makes me even more impatient with the 404th Chairborne.

dg

every time!

:-)

All I can do at this point is laugh...

Haitians are reported to be running approach control, they may be turning planes away as well

and them they keep out. :eyes:

Avril: We have had 4 cargo flights that successfully have flown to Port-au-Prince, with a total tonnage of 135. We have 2 cargo flights that flew to Dominican Republic with their total tonnage being 65. At the moment we have 6 cargo flights planned for the rest of this week, with a total tonnage of 195.

http://doctorswithoutborders.org/publications/article.cfm?id=4169&cat=transcript&ref=related-sidebar

Have you ever heard of the International Committee of the Red Cross?

The Red Cross is not.

and one gets diverted. This is not a crisis.

the military planes coming in with water and food have been ordered to circle. For Gods sakes this is an airport that, prior to the quake, handled 20-30 flights daily with a fully functional tower. Now it is handling 200+ with a makeshift tower.

that is what it is.

There has already been an uproar over aid flights being diverted for troop landings, and this is the second time this group has been diverted. They have surgical hospitals on board.

This is overblown bullshit.

And how do you suppose the ports will get repaired if we don't get troops on the ground?

ALL of it is important.

much less ports.

Basically they are rapid deployment engineering teams. They go into operational zones and they build stuff. Fast. Like hospitals, airports, bridges, and yeah, makeshift ports.

Good money says that when the port gets operational again, RED HORSE will be behind it.

Impressive is the capability they have to build these kinds of things so quickly.

Its not like we airlifted in the 1st Armored Division.

and 5 landings one day, 4 the next. Doctors w/o borders understands and accepts this. They have been on radio and TV trying to quiet the complainers.

due to a lack of security yesterday? I wonder if they're trying to get security in place, first due to that incident?

that is what all those troops are for... well some are for.

Today CNN showed a clip of a rescue with the IDF... they actually showed for a second the guy from the team tasked with security, loaded for bear... one shutgun and one assault rifle.

According to the second article: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4231109

I agree that refusing DWB planes is ridiculous, most likely has cost lives and I can't fathom why it's happening.

it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. Someone is always going to get left out, diverted, denied, whatnot. Sucks, but I guess this is the reality of chaos.

matter how well or often you drill, there is always a measure of chaos in emergency work. I was a Red Cross flood volunteer for years. Coping with chaos and change is part of relief wokr.

They've landed four of them already. But two DWB flights were diverted to the Dominican Republic for unspecified reasons, probably due to overcrowding at the airport. Even USAF transports are being delayed going in and out, and they have high priority.

This is precisely what people are complaining about.

One small DWB plane with 32 tons of cargo is less important than a USAF C-17 carrying 85 tons of cargo.

DWB agrees with this, because they're among the ones saying that the flight diversions are no big deal.

for this situation.

They don't need ground based services to unload their cargo, take much less time to turn around (unload), and carry much more cargo.

good post.

Sid

that was in Haiti because it had been chartered to bring in supplies.

techs were supposed to leave last night..they have been on stand by since last Wednesday, on our news this morning they said they were leaving this morning.Now tonight they said they didn't go and would not be leaving till the morning..and yet our Congressman was there in Haiti this morning..he was doing his Pr shit from the ground in Haiti..but these medical response teams did not go..nor all the equipment they have.

These huge teams of medical people are ..in the field response medical teams ..to get people to surgeries and medical care teams. And they have been sitting on stand by..and supposed to leave for sure last night..and didn't go..then didn't go this morning ..when they were ready to go..and now are held off till morning..but political people are getting there??????

wtf is going on???????? people who need desparate care are not getting it.

As Doctor Gupta said preventible deaths are occuring..and yet Centcom can't even get medical people there..why..wtf is going on???????

People are dying for lack of medical care..critical care..but don't worry..our polititicans are there!

My heart breaks for those people and I am angry.

I've always thot politicians, movie stars, media 'glam stars' and so on should be kept out of such disasters so that rescue teams can do their work unhindered.

Otherwise it turns into a 3 ring circus, and people die.

They do not bump anybody necessary. Were you resigning the Presidency this week to take command of the rescue operations and the entire Southern Command?

and he brought in supplies and guess what? Nurses and doctors, you think that was an empty plane?

I don't like to have VIPs for OTHER reasons at an emergency scene, mostly they add to the chaos... but they come loaded for bear.

and they have no need to go through the airport at all. Although politicians are probably hitching rides with military flights since they probably require military security with them on the ground and won't be carting around massive amounts of supplies. It's easy to get in a handful of people with basically nothing more than a camera or the shirts on the backs. The problem with getting in flights through the airport is that it's tiny and they have no tower, proper off-loading equipment, fuel, trained handlers, adequate storage, etc.

Here's a good explanation of what the logistics of dealing with this airport are...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/1/18/826200/-Airport-Ground-Operations-101

and left with kids

After that, absolutely... as I told her, I don't like VIPs for many reasons, you pointed to one of them... pesky security, but they usually come loaded for bear.

A big name politician can get things in and get people out. I seem to recall Gore doing something similar during Katrina. Bush wouldn't bring so much as a box of bandaids to distribute.

early on

+100000

you speak for many of us "My heart breaks for those people and I am angry"

French media reported several times that the French in general were intimidated and pushed out by the Americans, basically to get out from in front of the camera.

It's obvious that it's about geopolitical influence.

Yet of all nations the French feel the most guilt about the state Haiti is in and are the most willing of all Western nations to do good in Haiti.

and not politics.

That said this is happening RIGHT ON TIME.

Dime on the dollar if somebody else was in control of the airport you'd have charges anyhow... why? It happens every time.

doing and contributing?

MSF (correct name for DWB) is a private group, and seems unwilling to go with the process that others are following or show much in the way of understanding of the CF at the airport. They do seem more than willing to issue critical press releases with clear undertones of nationalism. Nadinbrzezinski is right about the child factor in all of this (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7502743&mesg_id=7502885).

When MSF shows that they complied with all the terms of the NOTAM, the airport had room, and they were still turned away, then and only then should we bother with their complaints.

Don't forget France is far away from Haiti and maintains only an episodic, low key presence in the area.

Florida is *right there* it took less than two days for Vinson to arrive.

France currently only has one carrier (the CDG) and its main purpose is European defense.

France has sent quite a bit of aid but not as much as they wished they could.


http://www.ptinews.com/news/469170_Obama--Sarkozy-to-organise-Haiti-conference--Elysee

Hopefully the phone call and teleconference today means that Sarkozy will get his minions to quit whining.

If I sound a bit grumpy, it was not a pleasant night here in SoCal...so I will apologize ahead of time.

During the Ivorian civil war (a few years ago), the French went to save a couple hundred Americans besieged in a boarding school for missionaries and their children and delivered them to American troops still in their planning phase of the "rescue operation". They were planning a big thing with cameras and lots of "go! go! go!" action from spec ops.

The French troops just went it, took everybody out, then raced back to the airport shooting at everyone pointing a weapon in their direction and delivered the civilians to a very pissed off American colonel.

The American MSM covered it as a bit major American operation with some help from the French.

Meanwhile the French media was showing the freed civilians holding French flags and chanting "vive la France!"

Seriously, two sides, two stories.

WTF do you want them to do? Throw the airport open to all comers?

They've got 1 hour to offload small planes, 2 hours to offload larger jets. The control tower is still down, so they're doing ATC by radio. They can't let another plane land until one has taken off...planes having to roll out onto the grass to get out of the way of planes taxiing to the runway for take-off or landing...sometimes equipment breaks down, causing further delays. Inbound aircraft sometimes arrives late & loses its slot.

Yet despite all of this, 600 flights HAVE landed since Wednesday, & still the 404th Chairborne refuses to acknowledge that the folks on the ground are working their asses off 24/7 & are quite possibly very aware that every plane is loaded with personnel & equipment that is very much needed. I've yet to hear a whiner either (a) volunteer to go run the show themselves, since they *are* the experts or (b) come up with a better plan, other than "let everything land."

dg

and charged it to my credit card.

I'm very concerned that they're being refused landing requests. Seems like they should be one of the top priorities. Why couldn't the orphans have been driven to DR and had a private plane pick them up from there?

Time isn't of the essence like it is for medical supplies etc.