Why do Toyotas accelerate suddenly?

Toyota execs used to say it's all about floor mats. Now they say there's another mechanical problem, which is so bad that they have stopped making and selling eight models.

The last Toyota employee I spoke to (a service writer) thinks the only problem is "the nut behind the wheel". He thinks people step on the gas when they mean to step on the brake. While this does happen, it doesn't explain why Toyotas suffer more incidents of sudden acceleration than all other makes put together, nor why the incidents involving Toyotas increased when Toyota began installing electronic throttles (i.e., "drive by wire") to replace mechanical linkages.

Ken Bensinger and Ralph Vartabedian report the following in today's LA Times:

(Begin quote) "What I smell is desperation from a company that is trying to get a situation under control that already is out of control," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research & Strategies, an auto safety consulting firm. He and other experts believe that while stuck pedals and floor mats may cause some incidents of unintended acceleration, the majority of the cases are linked to the computer-driven electronic throttle systems used on all Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

<snip>

Toyota, for its part, has denied that electronic throttle systems are to blame, saying that it has thoroughly investigated those components and found no defects. Nonetheless, the automaker said last week that it was continuing to evaluate field reports of sudden acceleration and was on the lookout for any other potential causes.

<snip>

In November it said that recall would involve modifying or replacing pedals, swapping out floor mats, changing carpet padding and installing new safety software that overrides the throttle when the brake is depressed. (my emphasis; end of quote)

For more, browse: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-sales27-2010jan27,0,1635017.story

It seems to me that the new safety software referred to above should have the highest priority, because it would fix all the sudden-acceleration problems caused by defects in Toyotas. Why is it listed at the end, almost as an afterthought?

That's what Toyota knows that's bad about their product.

They will continue to deny it's their fault, to help them stave off multi million dollar lawsuits over the many senseless deaths their bad product caused. Like Firestone and their flaming tires, like Ford and their flaming Pinto, this is a killer problem the manufacturer has known about a long, long time.

No longer have a defense when you admit your product is so defective you need to fix it.

Each jurisdiction has its own rules about what can be revealed to a jury, if anything, about any safety recalls. The jury may not hear anything about the recall, and in fact, anyone in the jury pool who knows about the recall may be stricken from the jury pool for cause. The judge may specifically instruct the attorneys through an Order in Limine that they may not discuss the recall.

The product liability cases against Toyota for this problem will continue. They're not suddenly resolved because of the recall. In many of the cases which result from accidents before the recall, the evidence of the recall will not be heard by the jury.

the bean counters have screwed up many a good product thoughout the years

And the code is so poorly written and documented that Toyota has no idea where the problem is. So they have to do a massive rewrite of the software - which takes years.

that Toyota was pulling sales of the cars manufactured in the US - not those manufactured in Japan. Kind of suggests that the flaw is in the manufacturing and not the design. If it was the coding, wouldn't all the cars Toyota makes be impacted, not just some models?

Not necessarily.

The ECU code would likely be region specific due to the differing pollution sensors the computer has to regulate.

And for those trying to blame CTS instead of Toyota, how come CTS makes throttle assemblies for Honda, Nissan and Mitsubishi without problems????

don't have the problems.

mark

Goes to show what I know about cars! Thanks for the information. :)

Does this information come from people who work for Toyota and might lose their jobs if exposed?

Is the code the same for all models, or unique to each model?

Why couldn't a simple patch be written to override the existing software in case of conflicting signals from the two pedals?

How many lines of code are we talking about?

Couldn't a large team rewrite the software quickly?

http://www.safetyresearch.net/the-safety-record-blog/ has a lot on this. Mind you, these guys are expert witnesses for people hurt in these kind of things, so their bias is evident. But one can be both biased and right.

As for all those really good questions you ask? I dunno.

- "Could be a burnt valve."

- "Corrupted DLL is what it sounds like to me."

:argh:

:sarcasm:

I have no idea exactly how this fits in, but that's why it's so clever!!!

OPERATION STILLPOINT:



:tinfoilhat:

:P

shouldn't they all be fixed?

...owned by Toyota, of course.

It IS interesting that the Lexus and Camry are made on the same line.

The box the part comes in will have either a Toyota or a Lexus label and a much more expensive price if it is the latter. You can ask for the Toyota part for your Lexus if you're anywhere OTHER than a Toyota/Lexus dealership - they're forbidden from putting in the less expensive part even though it is fucking identical.

He claimed he knew nothing about Toyotas. He said he knew more about Mercedes & BMW.

:wtf:

Now I LOVE my Honda. It's my second and when my husband needed a car we bought another used Honda Accord. We always buy 2-3 year old cars with low mileage, good condition, and privately owned. Saves a bundle.

A few cases of driver incompetence, media hype, and a story that's being played up by commercial competitors.

Only then, there was no "drive by wire" and mystery computer code to obscure the facts.

tell me, how do you bring back the people who died because of this????

Toyota Driver: ABC News Videos Helped Save My Life


Kevin Haggerty, a 45-year-old salesman from Pittstown, New Jersey, has seen plenty of car wrecks in his other job, a volunteer firefighter. When he went shopping for a car, he decided he wanted something safe and reliable, something that would protect his wife and two daughters, and that's what he thought he'd gotten when he purchased a new 2007 Toyota Avalon sedan


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-driver-abc-news-videos-helped-save-life/story?id=9618954

So what is your opinions of what is exactly wrong with these cars?

engineering of the parts, inadequate materials used to compensate for the demands of the manufacturer to meet a price point for the part, bad sensors, underlying problems with the computer firmware, ghost in the machine.


I'm not qualified to pass judgement, but we have TWO Toyota Camry trade ins that are now not for sale because of this mess. And my friends who own a huge Toyota dealership are going to have to lay off people until this is resolved. That's the worst part about this.

As usual, the regular people are the one who end up really suffering.

Drive 55 and floor the accelerator until it reaches 60. Keep your foot down on the gas, and with the other foot press the brakes firmly but don't slam them on. See what happens. You'll slow and stop - it will take longer than normal, but you'll stop.

Do this only on a dry road, in the middle lane with NOBODY in sight behind you. If you feel the car swerve or like you're losing control take your foot off both pedals - you don't have to stop all the way - in fact, don't, just resume normal driving after your car slows to 35-40 mph. But, it will prove to you that the brakes will slow the vehicle even at full acceleration.

This is a scam directed at Toyota.

The only one that could successfully re-created was a sticking idle (speed)air controller, leaving the engine running at about 2000 rpm. The car had to be braked kinda hard to be driven slowly like this, and sometimes, it would cause the driver to fluster and hit the gas instead of the brake - and the pedals were closer together than American cars. And the testing also proved that the car could be stopped with the brakes if the throttle was wide open - IF you had enough room.

have a problem with it at all. The prices for them were unbelievably low.

Oh, wait...

All this talk about accelerator problems makes we wonder if that could have been the cause of an accident I had in my Prius 4 years ago.

I "supposedly" pulled out into oncoming traffic and was broadsided by another car. Thanks to the great airbags in the Prius I wasn't seriously hurt, but the person who ran into me was able to get $90,000 from my insurance because it was ruled my fault. Unfortunately, I have no recollection of the last few minutes leading up to the accident (I had a mild concussion and experienced retrograde amnesia). All that was known was that I pulled out into the path of the oncoming car in a very unobstructed intersection.

For the life of me I couldn't understand why I would have done that (I'm a pretty careful driver). When I heard about the accelerator problem I thought that might explain what haapened....of course, at this late date nothing can be done about it, but it sure would answer a lot of questions.

it seems that the design problem is here in the US.

got something wrong again! What else is new???

:rofl:

I had a Toyota Celica in the 80s where this occurred.

:shrug:

Camrys to do ?????

That should do it.

Don

Two thousand and ten. Twenty ten. How does that coincide with your post-Wall Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? Foreign agents have subverted the Toyota Motor Corporation. That is why these cars are, of their own accord, wasting their precious automotive fluids. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

And we thought fluoridation was bad.

According to the local news, the component to be replaceed is the throttle pedal position sensor. This interfaces with the engine control computer, which actually operates the throttle.:mad: Supposedly, the problem is in the American made sensor, which can "hang up" internally, and fail to fully return, or return very slowly.

By the standards of many of today's consumers, I'm a :crazy:nut. I truly enjoy high quality machines and tools. I have high expectations of how a car should feel to it's driver - and I LOATHE drive-by-wire. The response delay is absolutely awful in some of these things - one of my hillclimbing friends bought a whole parts car, and went 100 miles to tow it home, because the 1 1/2 second delay in throttle response was near deadly in his (350 horsepower) VW Golf, and he reterofitted a mechanical throttle linkage from an earlier model. The other issue is that I think, based on a couple rental cars I've driven, that the throttle response is tweaked up to give the impression of a more powerful car - but if your'e trying to drive in snow, it nullifies driver skill, because the tires spin as soon as you touch the gas. :grr:

Some of the reason i get so stirred up about this is that one of my heroes, Richie Evans, died in a stuck throttle crash. As did Adam Petty, and Kenny Irwin. It was also a factor in the recent death of Scott Kalitta. One of Richie's crewmen came up with a device to shut off the engine when the throttle was open, but there was no pressure on the throttle pedal. That concept would likely not help the Toyota problem, as the required sensor to operate it in a drive-by-wire enviroment is what's defective!
A couple of racing parts companies have produced adjustable pressure microswitches to interface the engine and the brake system. I have used one for over 20 years in my hillclimb car. It does require adjustment to the car and perhaps the driver, and I beleive it has scared the producer's product liability insurers - the insurance co's don't make money by saving lives, only by avoiding risk :scared: :evilfrown:

The latest device in use in racing is the Roush Interrupter. This combines a brake pressure switch with 2 other sensors - a vacumm sensor to detect an open throttle, and a brake travel switch in case of brake failure.
This concept could be incorporateed in the engine control software IF there is an existing brake pressure sensor and brake failure (pedal to the floor) sensor are present. Sadly, I do not beleive this is the case. Adding either could well be expensive, and open the dealers and Toyota to significant additional liability if incorrectly installed.
Particularly in front-wheel-drive cars, advanced driving techniques require the ability to brake moderatley and apply power simultaneously (This method is taught at Team O'Neil school). Starting out on a steep grade could be quite problematic, as well. As I understand it, the method given in bold in the OP would not allow this - which may explain some of Toyota's reluctance - also, the brake lights, the brake antilock (ABS) system, and the engine controls may be on seperate computers! And finally, there is certainly some hubris on Toyota's part - but that hubris might greatly increase if they acknowledge that an American, and a racing and R&D partner of Ford, namely Jack Roush, invented the solution to the problem. If the concept is patented, and a royalty paid to Roush, Toyota would find that very hard to take!
Hey, I hope this all helps folks underrstand what's going on. And why can't Toyota, and other producers of "keyless ignition" cars, figure out an emergency stop switch, as used throughout their own factories?:wtf: :argh: :dunce:

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


Having literally watched him grow up during my racing career, that one hurt terribly........

A wonderful guy, incredible driver. If they ever make a movie if his life, Johnny Depp should play him - there was more than a little pirate in Richie!

I thought there was a brake pressure sensor, but what do I know? The driver's manual tells me what to do, not what the car does or how it works.

the '60's. I hate drive by wire, and in car electronics. We had a VW Passat that was a joy to drive - when it was running, and a multi-thousand dollar PITA when it was not. It sat in our mechanic's shop for over 2 months, had computer analysis and experts to check it, and NO ONE could find the problem, much less get it running. We had it towed to a Hyundai dealer and traded it in on a 10 year old Santa Fe, which runs like a top.


mark

throttle by wire is a problem that should be either discontinued or made more redundant with backups like the Roush system you mention. The wire throttle is more efficient design and production wise though because it works to replace a couple other systems like fast idle valves and air/idle control valves, it just needs a little more refinement.

All that said though Toyota is handling this very poorly, they should have been on top of this much sooner. Typical though that it was an American part that failed, we just don't have the same quality control.

The computers are separate but they are totally integrated. I doubt it's software, most likely it's the sensor itself. There's several ways though the problem could be alleviated

The most damning thing to come out of this whole issue though regarding the accidents is the piss poor state of driver education in the US. Shift into neutral or just slam the brakes, full braking trumps full throttle. All these cars are rev-limited to 4 grand when it's in neutral so it can't hurt the engine to rev.

This is something the dim bulbs in the news media should be shouting from the rooftops, SHIFT INTO NEUTRAL, BRAKE AND PULL OVER, THEN SHUT OFF THE KEY. Practice doing it first while stationary, then while driving in a parking lot low speed, then work up to the freeway (with minimal traffic). Do it until you are totally familiar with the procedure and what happens when you do it. Like you lose your power steering and power brakes when the engine shuts off. The safest thing to do if your unsure is just shift into neutral.

The remote fob keys are another poor design issue, like the Lexus that killed the police officer and family, it is not easy to shut off. These things should shut off easily and not lock the steering without another button or movement to go into lock.

This is all driver error, even if the throttle position sensor is defective, there's no excuse for simply not shifting into neutral.

The problem is that we allow anyone over the age of 16 to drive, even if they don't know how to save their own lives. These people are deadliest hazard on the road. Deadlier than drunks. More dangerous than speeding 16 wheelers. Worse than the brakes on American cars from the 1950s.

I've had some track time as well, and had a throttle jam once during an SCCA Solo II event in my VW-powered B-Mod. Hit the ignition kill switch, coasted to a stop in neutral. An extra .50 return spring solved that problem in about 30 seconds.

Where do you hillclimb? :fistbump:

Sequentials, and the "paddle shifters" so many here are enamoured of, may require several shifts, in the right direction, to get neutral. Back-cut or face engaging dogs may not come out of gear under full power. Centrifigual assist units on clutches may inhibit their disengagement at high RPM. And what of electronically controlled transmissions? How about a diesel in "runaway"?

IMHO, Toyota would not be allowed, by OSHA or their insurer, to install these cars as a machine in their own factory.

paddle shifters always have a stick on the console that you can shift straight to neutral, all autos with paddles can be shifted with the paddle or with the console shifter

all automatics will go into neutral under load

all automatics are electronically controlled for at least the last 10 years.

"and installing new safety software that overrides the throttle when the brake is depressed"

So much for the kids power braking fun.

But yeah redundancy in design so throttle position isn't vulnerable to a single point of failure is a good thing.

where are you getting the horsepower for that? Toyota hasn't made a car with power since they puked the Supra.

and a fucking Chevette can do burnouts!

Electrically actuated valve in the front brake line - step on the brake, actuate the valve with a pushbutton, let off the brake.
Front wheels braking, rears absolutely free!
from the JEGS catalog:
Used primarily for drag racing to provide positive locking action to the front wheels of race cars, reducing the chance of ''Rolling the Lights'' and producing more effective burn outs for heating up the tires. Rigorous testing has proved a 1/100,000 of a second release time and vibration tests have seen up to 30 G's applied without mechanical failure. On the street or off-road, and as a temporary ''Hill Holder'', roll control (line lock) finds use when both the clutch and brake are needed at the same time. With the on/off button at the control of the driver's fingertip, release of the locked wheels is easy.

This product is also referred to as: Stage Control, Line Lock, Line Loc, Launch Control, Anti-Roll, Brake Control and Roll Stop.

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplayPopup?storeId=10001&partNumber=530-174-5000&langId=-1&showValue=1

Dump and tow trucks have used a manual "Mico Lock" for years, to do similar things.
From the Mico website:
The MICO® 691 Brake Lock can be interlocked with other vehicle components/systems such as a power takeoff control, bus door or wheelchair lift to insure the brakes are locked whenever those components/systems are being utilized.

But it is personal information. Close relatives were struck by an out of control Toyota Camry and they didn't survive the crash. So this may explain some unanswered questions.

:hug:

Was there even a driver in it? PM me if you want. I was sitting in Dad's VW Squareback when an unattended, running car backed about 100', across a 2 lane road, and struck the VW broadside.

and BTW, we at Toyota will never admit to anything that might get us sued or worse. See ya in court.

BTW Toyota treated me well when I had problems with my original 2007 V6 Camry which had transmission problems. They gave me all my money back and paid for a rental car for the time my car was in the shop over a 4 month period. I took my money, went and bought a Camry Hybrid which has done well for 3.5 years.

:rofl:

and a hairpin spring on each throttle shaft, in case the throttle arm fails!

with spherical bearing rod ends and a rugged overtravel stop.
Instantaneous response, linear, and absolutely free of bind. Top racers insist on nothing less.

I have a pair of old Weber 40 DCNs on a 2016 cc hotrodded Type 1 VW. Nothing that looks that massive! I now have four return springs (not shown).

Pedal something like this:


Not much bigger in scale than yours - just a matter of perspective. IIRC, your system uses 3/16 (5mm) rod ends to connect the arms to the carbs.

Important note for racers: Make sure that you have a positive stop on the pedal, or the throttle arm if that is not possible (one of these is shown in the kit picture. There should be no tension on the throttle shaft withe the pedal held down HARD. I've seen a number of cases where a bolt head was used as a stop against the frame - and the headmark on the bolt is stamped into the frame!

Oh yeah - I use the brake pressure switch because response is INSTANT - we run on narrow mountain roads, and there is little time to respond. The brake seitch buys time to get to the shutoff switch.

Imagine an Olds 455 stuck on "go"

It's retroactive

... but for some reason I went with a Honda Accord instead. It was down to three equivalent cars in three different brands, and after owning Toyotas for over 35 years, I suddenly went with the Honda.

Ye gods and little catfishes -- that was a near-miss.

The Camry wagon is 20 years old and still going strong, btw. Toyota used to be the best.

Hekate

or something.............