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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:55 AM
Original message
Michael Ware: Pulling out would be devastating
I just saw a replay of CNN's Michael Ware and Kyra Philips explaining to the viewers that an immediate troop withdrawal would be the worst possible move America could make. Ware said something along the lines of "Whether you were for the war or against the war, it does not matter. Pulling out the troops would give Iraq to Iran and Al Qaeda".

I must admit that when this is coming from Mr. Ware, I have to step back and reevaluate my position. It's not like Mr. Ware is a neo conservative. I have seen no evidence of him having an agenda of any kind other than the truth. Of all the talking heads, there are a few that can be trusted, and I count Michael Ware among them.

The fact that Kyra Philips also had the same opinion may not hold as much water, but nevertheless, you can't discount the possibility that perhaps an immediate withdrawal would be a bad idea.

Granted, it might be the case that there is nothing that can be done anymore in Iraq. The egg has been scrambled and the American presence there serves simply to delay the inevitable. I hate to take that stance, but it seems like the only logical one. In that case, then, Mr. Ware's point is moot. Iraq is already lost and the only purpose the American troops serve is as target practice for the victors.

I think I'll take the latter position for the time being.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Insert "pulling out" joke here.
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Fozzledick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. An excuse for continuing rape?
I've heard this one before...
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. glad to oblige
"Actually, it's Poppy Bush NOT pulling out that has been devastating"












thanks, I'll be here all week :hi:
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. It'll be devastating whether we stay or go.
It's FUBAR no matter what we do.

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BlackHawk706867 Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. That's a crock of crap... When the US left Vietnam, things were ugly...
for awhile, but they soon settled down. The best thing that could happen is for all foreign forces to get out of Iraq as quickly as possible.

ww
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. Yes, the ugly situation did settle down, all it took was the slaughter of hundreds of thousands.
And that's not even counting civilians killed during the war.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. I see Geography is not your strong point...
Try Cambodia next time..
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
27. Was there sectarian/ethic warfare in Vietnam? nt
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. Not quite it was a two way civil war, a colonial war
by the way... Iraq was in that situation before, and when the brits pulled out thigns got uggly for a little while, then they finally settled down under strong men, the last of which was Sadam
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
57. After over a million died, things did calm down...
If thats what you mean.
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MN ChimpH8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. The genocide you are referring to
happened in Cambodia, not Vietnam.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. I have always felt that an immediate troop withdrawal would be a bad idea--
we have to have SOME presence there, to fight Al Qaeda and protect the borders, peacekeeping, rebuilding, etc.--that's why there isn't a big push beyond the far left for a sudden/complete withdrawal.
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BlackHawk706867 Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I think your wrong! A complete withdrawl and invitation to other countries to come in..
is in order... The US and Brits. need to get their forces out immediately if not sooner.

ww
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Progressive_In_NC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. If we pull out China would be glad to put tanks on the ground
and support the complete extermination of the Sunni's as long as they can get exclusive contracts to extract the oil. That's the model they're using in the Sudan right now at least.
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
6. phased withdrawal is not an immediate pullout
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
7. No fucking body is talking about IMMEDIATE pullout goddamit.
R E D E P L O Y M E N T
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BlackHawk706867 Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. NO... Complete pullout... The US presence is nothing but a bunch of BS anyway...
US forces are the problem not the solution...

ww
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Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
8. How about asking the U.N. to bring in peacekeepers? n/t
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BlackHawk706867 Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. The UN will not bring in peace keepers until the violence has quelled.... eom
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
44. yes
redeployment....
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
10. Michael Ware IS A Neocon
Although he's probably the smartest neocon that's on the teevee right now. He's honest in his reporting on how fucked up the situation is in Eye-Rack, and is quick with his criticisms of the Bush administration. But he always colors his commentary with apocalyptic visions of how "gee-hahd-dists" are going to somehow take over this country if we don't straighten up and take the fight to them and is clearly in favor of staying in the country in order to prevail in the Clash of Civilization, Huntington style.
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. He's promoting himself - he's an entertainer.
Just as "Wolf" Blitzer built his career in that other war, this guy is shooting for a bigger gig somewhere down the line.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
42. He had better get his nose straightened
if he wants a career in US tv
He is decent looking , but that nose
( although it didn't hurt Brian Wilson)
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
64. he has a great gig in Iraq
he is on TV all of the time. Why the fuck would he want the US to leave?
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
13. The American attempts to impose stability is like trying to put out a fire with kerosene.
In case the pundits haven't noticed, all the attempts of "democatizing", "stabilizing", "securing the borders", etc, have failed. After 4 years of America's neo-colonial efforts, the situation has gotten, and continues to get, only worse. Not only in Iraq, but throughout the region.

It is long past time to stop digging the hole we find ourselves in and get the hell out of the Iraqi's country.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
14. I find it amusing and OBVIOUS that in the CONTROLLED media discussion
the subjects of internationalizing the effort and containment never seem to come up. I would also add that devastation has already been visited on Iraq and that the situation will ONLY be solved politically.

CNN and the rest of the right wing media has been fully prepared for the Patraeus visit. They have the entire dog and pony show scripted. The discussion on CNN at least this morning has been to present the Patraeus press conference WITHIN the framework of the BushCo position.

As for Kyra Philips and Ware, I would ask how in the hell would they know anything beyond the Green Zone or whatever they have been TOLD by someone else. I doubt that either has ever been able to fully investigate for themselves the positions of all parties in Iraq to get a clear view of the landscape.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. he spends a lot of time outside the Green zone. nt
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. I was surprised when Michael Ware said that ~
Sounds like they have been gettingg to him big time.

Just the other day he was almost in tears talking about the mess in Iraq.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. We must remember that cheney & bu$h* can wiretap anyone at anytime for anything...
Be Ware Michael Ware.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
19. Unfortunately the die is cast.
Leaving American's in the killing zone between the two sides is only going to prolong the agony.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
22. Right...Just let those American Soldiers
keep getting blown up until there are no others left to get killed. :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Fuckers should have thought of that before they bombed the shit outta Iraq.
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grytpype Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
23. Well, no one but Kucinch is calling for an immediate pullout.
The Democratic position right now is to pull out combat troops by late 2008 and leave in troops to hunt al Qaeda and provide support to Iraqi government troops.

But I do think that when 2008 rolls around, the situation will be even worse and we will have to hand Iraq over to Iran and al Qaeda. The political question is who is going to get blamed for that.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
24. What Howard Zinn said about this
...on Democracy Now! last week:

In some ways, <the situation during Vietnam is> similar to the situation now where the government in Iraq, the government is finding, our government is finding that we don't have enough soldiers to fight the war. So they're sending them back again and again. And where they're recruiting sergeants here in the United States, they're going to enormous lengths, lying to young people about what will await them and what benefits they will get. The government is desperate to maintain the military force today in Iraq. And I think in Vietnam, this dissidence among the military, and its inability to really carry on the war militarily was a crucial factor. Of course, along with the fact, we simply could not defeat the Vietnamese resistance. And resistance movements -- and this is what we are finding out in Iraq today -- resistance movements against a foreign aggressor, they will get very desperate, they will not give in. And the resistance movement in Vietnam would not surrender.

And so, the US government found it obviously impossible to win without, yes, dropping nuclear bombs, destroying the country and making it clear to the world that the United States was an outlaw nation and impossible to hold the support of the people at home. And so, yes, we finally did what a number of us had been asking for many, many years to withdraw from Vietnam and the same arguments were made at that time. That is, when we called in 1967, well, I wrote a book in 1967 called, Vietnam, the Logic of Withdrawal and the reaction to that was, you know, we can't withdraw. It will be terrible if we withdraw. There will be civil war if we withdraw. There will be a bloodbath if we withdraw. And so we didn't withdraw and the war went on for another six years, another eight years, six years for the Americans to withdraw, eight years totally. The war went on and on and another 20,000 Americans were killed. Another million Vietnamese were killed.

And when we finally withdrew, there was no bloodbath. I mean it wasn’t that everything was fine when we withdrew and there were re-education camps set up, and the Chinese people were driven out of Hanoi on boats, so it wasn’t -- . But the point is, that there was no bloodbath, the bloodbath was what we were doing in Vietnam. Just as today when they say, oh, there will be civil war, there will be chaos if we withdraw from Iraq. There is civil war, there is chaos and no one is pointing out what we have done to Iraq. Two million people driven from their homes and children in dire straits, no waters, no food. And so the remembrance of Vietnam is important if we are going to make it clear that we must withdraw from Iraq and find another way, not for the United States, for some international group, preferably a group composed mostly of representatives of Arab nations to come into Iraq and help mediate whatever strife there is among the various fractions in Iraq. But certainly the absolute necessary first step in Iraq now is what we should have done in Vietnam in 1967 and that is simply get out as fast as ships and planes can carry us out.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/16/1338223&mode=thread&tid=25
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blitzen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
25. Ware is a rabidly anti-Iranian hawk....
that's been his agenda for the past three years....


He is NOT against the war....He just thinks that we're getting our asses kicked. He's a good reporter but is by no means on the left side of the Iraq issue.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Not sure he is one either side of the issue - just there in Iraq outside the green zone
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
26. I think it's possible
Iraq might spiral downward into a Rwanda/Bosnia type of situation. Would America be willing to simply stand at the sidelines & watch a genocide we created?
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
28. I respect Ware's opinion - he "lives" in iraq outside the green zone
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 11:04 AM by dmordue
how many others have that perspective or the guts to do it...Pulling out might be good for our troops but it won't stop the innocent Iraqi deaths.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
30. Indeed, Mr. Ware is not a neoconservative
If anybody has the video, please post in in the vid form. I want to see that.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
31. He and John Burns, who've been there from Day One agree on this.
I understand what they're saying and tend to agree with them, as much as I oppose this war and how it's been managed.
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jannyk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Yes, neither of them hold out a hope for
a so called 'Victory', yet they understand the situation more than most, including our Generals. They also have a greater empathy and understanding of the native populace and know things are going to get very bad for the Iraqi's, and possibly the region, when we create the 'vacuum'. Burns and Ware 'walk the walk', unlike McCain and Lindsay and their 'Hollywood' style photo ops, they know what the real issues are and how they are likely to play out.

This WH has created a no-win situation. We're fucked if we stay and the region is fucked if we leave. The only certainty is, that there is no 'Victory' to be had, and with that as the only stated goal it is guarenteed we lose (already lost).

I'm personaly torn in two. I don't want our men/women to die in Iraq - I want them to come home and resume their lives as best they can. I'm sick when I think of the one trillion hard earned tax dollars squandered on this war when we have so many problems at home. But I also don't want any Iraqi's to die because we destabilized their country on a whim and left them with the disastrous results - it brings to mind the "Killing Fields" in Vietnam.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. You expressed my views better than I.
I am a platelet donor, attend funerals at Arlington and don't think this war is worth dying for.

But, now that we're there, I don't think we can just leave. Burns and Ware both say that the presence of our troops in an area tends to calm things for a while.

It's really a no-win situation.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
33. We allowed this fuckup. It will be fucked up for a long time to come whether we pull out or not.
but this is crap. "Pulling out the troops would give Iraq to Iran and Al Qaeda."
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. How do we know that?
Edited on Thu Apr-26-07 02:20 PM by Marie26
We're not in Iraq, we don't know what's happening. Ware is hardly a fan of the Bush Administration, he has contacts in the insurgency, and he's lived in Baghdad for years. I'd think, if anyone knows what's going to happen to Baghdad, it's him. Burns, another veteran reporter in Baghdad, agrees w/this assessment.

I'm for withdrawing too, but I haven't ever heard someone really answer the question about what the US military should do after withdraw. If we withdraw, and genocide does begin in Iraq, what should the US do?
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jannyk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. The same as we did when Vietnam
had their 'Killing Fields' of over 2 million. The same as we did for Rawanda and are doing for Darfur. When Genocide does occur in Iraq - the US will do what it always does - absolutely nothing!!
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. OK
As progressives, we condemn the US for not intervening in Rwanda or Darfur, yet we are advocating that the US do nothing if genocide begins in Iraq? Does that seem consistent?
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jannyk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. No, I don't think it is ..
The situation is somewhat different in that any genocide in Iraq would be a direct result of US interference and therefore morally obligate an intervention - assuming of course that the US has any morals remaining.

Marie - see my reply #37. I don't know what the answer is - I only know there are no 'good' ones. And whilst hearing the troops were coming home would make me very happy, it would also make me feel very ashamed that we had left the Iraqi's to die. But I'm ashamed already and Iraqi's are being killed every day in great numbers with us there - so I'm so torn on the correct thing to do.

There's no putting things back the way they were and somehow Iraq has to coalesce and move forward - I do not think that is possible while it is occupied by the US. It's going to take many years and many more deaths before Iraq is any where near 'stable'. I also think that the violence and killing will occur whether we leave tomorrow or in ten years - but of course GW will be long gone by then.

I think the worst is going to happen no matter what we do now and we will have to live with the knowledge that it is our fault.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
71. No good answers
Thanks, I basically agree with you. I'm also torn about what the US should do. We have created this mess, and I do think we have a moral obligation to help resolve it. On the other hand, most Iraqis seem to think that American troops are only making things worse. It seems like no matter what we do, the situation will just deteriorate regardless; so maybe we should just withdraw now. However, if Ware is right, when the US begins to withdraw, mass masacres will begin in Iraq, and I can't support the US abandoning the Iraqis to suffer. If we're for stopping genocide & crimes against humanity, we need to try to stop ALL genocide, especially when it is a genocide we have provoked. There's just no good answer, and every solution just seems to make the problem worse. Then I decide I don't know what to do, and just want to watch some American Idol. Which is where most Americans seem to be. We really don't want to have to face the total, tragic consequences of this war.
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jannyk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. We didn't just 'allow' it..
..we engineered it. To say we 'allowed it' means we gave 'permission' for it to happen - we didn't, we created this whole hellish scenario all by ourselves.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. Being led around by nitwits didn't help.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
35. I love Michael Ware
but I got one thing to say to him..

SO!
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. yes
:)
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
41. Dammit! No one is talking about an "IMMEDIATE" withdrawal! Not Reid, not Murtha, not Feingold!
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
43. Thanks for the OP
I opposed this war cause I knew that a stable, unified, pro west, democratic Iraq was at least 5 difficult decades away.

When we invaded, we took responsibility for Iraq's security (We said, "Your Bathe Party Government is a risk to our security that we cannot allow to continue. To protect ourselves we need to overthrow your government and replace it with a pro-west democratic government.")

When the war was popular, the public (and Democrats) were silent. Now that cut and run is popular, Dems are for it. :eyes:

We need to remain in Iraq until our government admits that it cannot defend Iraq until a pro-west stable democratic Iraq can protect itself.

Anyone that thinks we can cut and run is wrong. We need to stay the course until the new decider decides to change it. The bad news is, no 2008 Dem will ever admit defeat, so on 1-20-09, expect more war in Iraq.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. There will be no immediate Draw Down of US Troops.

The majority of Dems do not call for all US Troops to be pulled out of Iraq. The Bill outlines that a undetermined number will stay indefinetly to train Iraqi Troops, to defend the Green Zone and the 14 US Bases and to fight al Q and the Sunni and Shi'ite Insurgency. The US will have at least 40K Troops and a large number of Mercs in Iraq well beyond '09.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. cut and run is a repuke talking point...
Get out now and fuck those who say we should stay.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
63. Success will take 50 years
And we are in for a penny, in for a pound. We should have never gone in. Now we need to stay until the Decider admits mission scrapped. I doubt any of the 2008 candidates are going to admit defeat in 2009.

I think our next president will show us that Bush fucked the war up, and that they can lead us to victory.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. Cut and Run? Stay the course? Maybe you need to step away
from the Neocon talking points for a minute--many here, myself included, do not want to "cut and run"--I believe we can leave gradually and responsibly. Just letting the Iraqis know we are serious about drawing down combat ops may spur them to take their own security seriously. We need to stay long enough to help them to fight Al Qaeda and keep their borders intact, so Iran doesn't come spilling over (may be too late for that). We have to maintain a presence on bases in case violence gets completely out of hand, but the day-to-day violence in cities is going to happen regardless. Going door-to-door in Baghdad fighting insurgents forever will not change the outcome, and neither will holing up in mini-posts around Baghdad--we saw how that made sitting ducks out of our troops this week. Nobody has a GREAT solution, not Ware, not Obama, not Petraeus--but "staying the course" is asinine--more of the same is futile. The insurgents LIVE there--they can outlast us, and they will. Maybe stepping back a little and seeing how the Iraqis cope will let us see what we should do.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
50. Oh? And "pushing in" wasn't? (eom)
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
52. the Democrats are planning PHASED WITHDRAWAL
NOT IMMEDIATE WITHDRAWAL.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
53. It's going to be bad whenever we pull out
We opened a can of worms that will not end until one group destroys the other. The clerics on both sides want to be the ones in power and they aren't going to back down. They could stop the violence if they wanted too. This is a fight that has been going on a long time, it's not going to magically end when we leave. When we do leave there will be a power stuggle and in the end there will be another theocracy in the middle east.

The only real hope is for a strong world leader to bring negotiation and common sense back to the table.

Our troops being there just makes them targets in the middle of a bloody civil war.

The damage is done and I agree the American presence just delays the inevitable.
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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
55. Straw Man argument and
Kyra Philips should lose her job for that display of bias.

Immediate withdrawl is not the plan - phased withdrawl with time tables is the plan.
The Iraqis will be informed of the phases and dates.

ANY time we withdraw from that country it will explode in all out civil war. This is one of the many reasons the war was a huge mistake in the first place. It is inevitable.

If we continue to occupy that country without limit - we can expect the US to become a terrorist battle ground for the warring factions.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
58. Michael Ware now playing in the Video forum
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Is Michael Ware an American citizen?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
61. Fuck Michael Ware: NOT PULLING OUT IS MORE DEVASTATING.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-26-07 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
62. Gee, ya mean there are bad consequences for stupid decisions?
Oh my.

The free for all is now out of our control. We are merely pouring gasoline on the fire.

We need to get the fuck out and let them sort it out. They will. Its their country. They don't want us there. I suspect they will run the al qaida bizarro's out too, once they are done aligning with them to boot us out
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
65. He's always been a warmonger - that's why it was so funny when the freepers jumped all over him...
... for finally telling the truth about mccain.
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Is it possible that there maybe some truth to Ware's opinion? Of course. I don't see the need to
Edited on Fri Apr-27-07 01:21 PM by Dave From Canada
denounce him as a warmonger. That's ridiculous.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Warmonger is as warmonger does - whether or not *you're* aware of it...
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Sorry, but being concerned over the aftermath of an ill-conceived war, does not make one a warmonger
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Supporting the surge does.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-27-07 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
68. If we pulled out...
Michael Ware would probably be out of a job.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-30-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. The Insurgency must like this guy.
He has been in Iraq for 4 years and is still alive. He was kidnapped once and was let go via some good connections that he developed.
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