Powerful story of one man's concrete encounter with the right to choose

I was pointed to this blog entry by Feministe:


http://disgustedbeyondbelief.blogspot.com/2007/04/my-views-on-abortion.html

...

Nothing is stopping the bleeding. There seems to be nothing they can do. They talk about trying some drugs, but then they decide things are going too fast to give time to let them work. So that leaves only surgery as a possibility. Surgery means hosing her out. It means killing the baby. So obviously, we look into other options. Only now, my wife is so out of it, from blood loss, from the painkillers, that the doctor said she is no longer able to legally consent. Now I'm handed a clipboard. On it is consent to basically give my wife an abortion and kill our future child. And it is all on me, my decision, mine alone. Something I never thought I'd ever face, ever have to deal with. Made worse by being a decision of either kill the baby or potentially watch both my wife and the baby die. The doctors did not say at this point that it was absolutely necessary. Maybe more blood could be transfused in. Maybe she wasn't dilated - they hadn't figured it out yet. Still too much blood. So then there I was, facing the sort of choice that you usually see only in hypotheticals in ethics and philosophy classes. Only it was real. It was my wife. And I didn't have exactly a lot of time to think about it. It was just me and the clipboard. An empty line there, marked for my signature. My wife bleeding right next to me. The ultrasound of my baby, and its heartbeat, fresh in my mind from minutes before. I cannot begin to describe how I felt at that moment. One cannot know until you are in it. I won't even try. I hope I never feel that way again.

As fate would have it, soon after that eternity of minutes, they finally managed to figure out, by touch alone, through all the blood, if she was dilated. She was. Just barely. That made the pregnancy an inevitable loss, they told me. I signed the consent and they took her up for what they said would be a 20 minute surgery. Even more ironically, they took us up to one of the pre-delivery rooms to prep her for the surgery. It turned out to be the very same room we were in before our first (and thus far only) child was born. Oh how the feelings were different this time around. Oh how those feelings were amplified and made worse by the memories of the last time I was in that room. And there they left me, where I waited for word.

I sat there, wondering if I'd at least get my wife back after this. Then 20 minutes passed, and nothing. Thirty minutes. Forty. Forty five. I started to get worried and thought all sorts of horrible things that I will not put words to. Mainly, then, I start to think about the abortion debate. About pro-lifers, in particular. I think about all those meddling politicians that would want to interject themselves into everything that just happened to me, interject themselves between me, my wife, and her doctors. And then I had a strong, visceral reaction. I wanted the mutherfuckers to die. I wanted to rip off their heads and tear out their hearts, because how DARE they play politics with my wife's life? The baby was fine until the end. I wondered if that would have meant they'd force us to let my wife bleed until almost death before they'd let us abort, because well, if she's not near death, then it is just a 'health' exception, and we can't have that! Fuck them. Fuck them all. They can fucking die, as far as I'm concerned. This was what went through my mind as I sat there, waiting to see if, after my baby died, my wife had died as well. I still feel that visceral reaction when I think about it, though not quite as strong - right then and there, if someone pro-life walked in and started talking about it to me, I very well might have physically attacked them. And I'm about as non-violent as one gets.

Finally, the doctors come out and tell me she's fine and headed to recovery. Again, she's in the same slot in recovery as she was after the birth of our daughter. I'm exhausted. It is now 1 am. She will be there overnight. I make sure she's ok and I head for home.

...

(credit Feministe again for discovering it) Pardon the breathlessness, but it's all in the original:

I’m glad your wife is doing well and I’m sorry for the loss of your baby.

As a father of a 1 yr old baby girl, I value the life of my baby more than anything else on Earth. She is the most important thing there is, I would have to say equal to my own wife.. my baby is a part of me, she is my own blood, my offspring, she is genetically closer to me than my own wife. My baby girl will love me more as she is growing up than my own wife ever will.. the love between a daughter and father is, in my opinion, greater than between a husband and wife. Agree with me or not, that is my opinion.. and my baby girl is only 1 yr old. All she can say is “da da”, but I know she loves me and I love her infinitely so.. my wife, I love also infinitely so, but sometimes it’s rocky, sometimes it’s up and down and we aren’t always as close as we’d like to be, but I will always love my baby girl infinitely. When my wife found out she was pregnant, which was an accident, her instant reaction was that she wanted an abortion. There we were in the bathroom with the home pregnancy test kit in hand reading positive for pregnancy and she gets all histerical, crying and raving on and on about how her life is now ruined and how she can’t go through with being pregnant, etc.. I told her it’s her choice, but if she kills my baby (has an abortion) that I would divorce her in a heartbeat and I would never speak to her again. I thank God that I was able to sway her foolish and immature, emotional and illogical thinking, and she decided not to kill our baby girl. We are still married to this day and my wife and I both love our baby girl more than anything. In fact, if we did not have our baby (if my wife never got pregnant), I am pretty sure we would not still be married… having the baby has brought my wife and I closer in our marriage and has given us something greater than our love for each other (which is very strong), but now we are a family and we mutually love our daughter. If I had allowed my wife to abort our baby or I had not cared enough to take a firm moral stand based on what I believe is right, then today (1 yr and 9 months later) I would have been robbed of the single greatest joy I have ever known in my entire life. My baby girl is the most beautiful gift God has ever given me and the one thing I am most thankful for. I would give my life in a heartbeat to save my baby girl and how any mother would hesitate to even think otherwise is beyond me. I would not only give my own life to save my baby girl but I would kill or spend the rest of my life in prison if I had to, or pay any price no matter how high, to protect the life and safety of my innocent child.

...

Neither presents a rational case--both are appeals to emotion, argumentum ad misericordiam.

The first anecdote claimed that men should have a say in abortion rights, that women sometimes lose the ability to make choices for themselves, and that late term abortion is sometimes necessary to preserve a woman's life. The narrator's rant about "health" in context made little if not no sense as he would not have aborted the child if his wife's life wasn't actively threatened. That much, at least, was clear in his post.

On the other hand, the comment argues that abortion is sometimes a rash and panicy suggestion made during a moment of stress and that counselling and advice from a loved one might help a woman make up her own mind regarding a pregnancy. That the man would have left her is neither here nor there. She didn't abort her baby, so the matter is moot.

Interestingly, only one of these posts actually presents a clear cut case of a woman exercising choice--the second, the pro-life position.

I don't believe that these two posts do what you think they do.

How can you have any clue what I think they do?

Incidentally (or not): The fact that they set you off on your personal crusade against personal stories was completely unintentional.

:patriot:

but I think you might have been presenting a case for the health vs life exception for late term abortion. But like I said, it's unclear. If the example was well-chosen, I should be able to ascertain your purpose pretty much immediately.

My personal crusade against pointless emotional touchy feely anecdotes? Yeah, I hate that shit. Give me facts and figures any day. I really don't care much about feelings.

but that doesn't mean your opinions necessarily add anything to the discussion. In this case, for example, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about whether I've succeeded in what you think my purpose was in posting these anecdotes. But you don't seem to have considered that you really don't know why I posted them, so you've wound up having a heated argument with your strawman over them.

While we're stumbling in the dark trying to guess each other's motives, allow me to posit that something in the first anecdote hit a nerve with you on the subject of abortion and right of choice, but instead of sharing that, you detoured into criticizing my alleged motives in posting these in the first place. Do you really believe abortion can only be discussed using "facts and figures?" If so, why lower yourself to keep posting in a thread in which a personal story about choice is featured? Why not save your energy for a thread more suitable to your rational approach to the subject?

Or why not just post about how the first anecdote hit you?

It was not about a woman choosing, it was about a man being unexpectedly placed in a position to need to choose. The point was a decision made by a surrogate to save a woman's life -- a decision that the recent SCOTUS decision would allow a state to outlaw.

The second was a series of claims by a man about how he'd kept his wife from making the 'wrong' decision, with no input from her as to what she feels.

What utterly denigrating, selfish and condescending language this man uses to describe his wife's desire to NOT have a child.

The woman - ALL WOMEN *KNOW* whether they want a child or not and WHEN they want one. Deciding against it at any time for any reason is HER and only HER choice and should remain so.

JUST BECAUSE SOME MAN doesn't agree with HER decision doesn't make it wrong, or "illogical, foolish, emotional" - it may make HIM so, though, should he try to FORCE or coerce her to do incubator duty for his offspring - which is what this man DID.

Frankly, she should have let him divorce her if she truely did not want the child at that point. It appears she was coerced.

SHOULD any woman any time decide against pregnancy that does NOT make HER "foolish, illogical, emotional, and illogical" - HOWEVER I DO find that this woman's husband's reaction to his wife not wanting a child at that point IMMATURE, SELFISH, and EXTREMELY NARCISSISTIC.

It's HER BODY. Not HIS. And WHATEVER IS IN IT is also HERS.

HIS CHOICE ENDED when he put his p*nis into HER body.

After that, any resulting pregnancy is no longer HIS choice and HIS reaction to her not wanting a child at that point is just disgustingly juvenile.

THIS MAN DOES NOT LOVE HIS WIFE. He CONTROLS her. And he only loves what SHE can GIVE HIM. That's all. If we want to talk about a foolish, immature, emotional and illogical definition of "love" - there you go.

This is one of those control-freak mysogenists who OBVIOUSLY think a woman is incapable of making HER OWN CHOICES and who intends to make sure his wife - any any other women he can possibly control - are unable to.

Have you ever changed your mind about anything?
Have you ever felt guilty about having a shallow or unformed opinion about a thing?
Have you ever changed an opinion after hearing the argument of another?

Women have the absolute right to choose in these matters, but that doesn't mean that those around them must be silent.

...what a condescending, self-righteous, controlling man he is.

nt

:sarcasm:

I feel sorry for the daughter too because it's unlikely that she'll fail to notice the weak relationship of her parents. I just hope that her mother is truly happy to have a child and isn't resentful of her or that if she is resentful that she keeps that fact away from her child until the girl is an adult.

I can see a purity ball in her future. :eyes:

:hi:

that scary happy dad post freaked me out. it kinda covers every wrong reason to have a kid. just ick.
how are you, doll?
:loveya:

OMG, you've missed so much! Send me a pm! I'll fill you in :D

Miss you! :loveya:

It's all about HIM. :puke:

What a pompous, condescending ass. "I would have been robbed of the single greatest joy I have ever known in my entire life." So he clearly doesn't view his wife as that greatest joy, just as a baby making machine for him.

I hope that woman does divorce him someday. I feel sorry for her, and for the kid. Her mother may or may not want her now that she has been born, but her father certainly doesn't love her as an individual. He sees her as his property. (I wouldn't be surprised if this man didn't end up making her do one of those virginity pledges to him.)

..or possession. What a sick man!

can't wait till she's a teenager.

for his daughter...over his wife.

That's a marriage that won't last all that long, I'm 99.99% sure.

I could have saved myself a lot of writing if I had read your response first. <g> I agree. It was all about HIM, HIM, HIM. That woman needs to grab her baby and run like the wind.
Lee

...I think HIS reaction to her not wanting to be pregnant at that time was appalling - and extremely narcissistic.

So the Right Winger thinks it's all about HIM, HIM, HIM, HIM, HIM. Who HE loves the most. Who is HE most genetically connected to. Who HE loves more even than HE loves HIS wife. All about HIM. So HE would choose a fetus over a completely actualized, living, breathing, functioning, loving, independent, already alive WOMAN. Great.
May I please castrate him? Please?
That woman needs to grab her baby and fun fast and far.
Lee

That man needs to shield his testes pronto. Of course, he has an immediate advantage; anyone looking for them would have to tie him down in order to conduct the necessary search.

held by so many right wing men really about the child being more a part of them then their wives are? Is that why they feel that they have the right to tell a woman that they must carry a child to term at any cost to themselves? I never thought of it that way.
How is he going to feel about his 'baby girl' when she is a woman?

She should have divorced him...

He seems like the kind of narcissistic twit who lives in fantasyland.

does NOT a sound argument make. Abortion, its validity and relevant procedures, should be dispassionately discussed. For every emotional story promoting choice, there's one promoting life.

Anecdotes are not arguments. They do serve a purpose, however, much the same as any story serves a purpose.

Thanks for your opinion.

because I don't think you've thought this out very clearly. Only one of your examples presents the case of a woman exercising choice. Remember that choice also includes choosing not to abort a baby.

if you don't know the purpose of it?

The first story is about the rare instance of a man exercising choice because his wife is unable to. Do you think it's irrelevant to the question of abortion and choice?

exactly HOW pro choice he is. it's a shame it took so much to bring it out in him, but there it is.

the second story is about a man who misguidedly thinks he loves his wife (who he was just threatening to divorce, such was his love) because she complied with his threats and coercion to have a child. the man treats his loved ones as possessions, his DNA is everything that matters to him, his love is of the conditional, my way or the hi way sort. he speaks of his wife like a dispensable incubator for the all important daughter. gosh, poor daughter- when she sees her dad ain;t superman, he is going to turn on her, too i guess. nope, this guy can't handle anything less than hero worship.

A need to make a choice to save a life -- whether a woman's to save her own, or a surrogate's to save the life of a person able to make her own choice -- demonstrates one of the things wrong with the SCOTUS decision.

appeal to the SCOTUS to allow the operation to happen? I don't think his wife would have lived. But Justice Kennedy would think that no one's rights were infringed 'sufficiently' to worry about.

I hope the Right Wingers daughter grows up to be a lesbian separatist atheist.
Lee

nt