Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Burn in hell?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:28 PM
Original message
Burn in hell?
the other night i was talking to my granddaughter who is a "born again christian". i won't bore you with the topic, but she said "i don't want to burn in hell".

hubby and i were raised catholic, but are now atheists. i mentioned it to him last night. i said "when was the last time you heard someone say they were afraid they would burn in hell? he couldn't remember and neither could i.

it seems like it was some kind of fairytale that we were told as children -- kinda like the easter bunny and santa claus.

i don't want to offend anyone's religious beliefs, but i'd like to hear other's thoughts on this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. I survived Catholic school
and, like so many others who survived Catholic school, I'm an atheist and have been for some time.

I would hate to live my life in that kind of fear. I honestly don't know what happens when people die, I just know it's a one way trip.

Death is something we all have to face sooner or later. Adding to the fear of death and allowing it to poison an entire lifetime seems a terrible waste.

So yes, the whole idea is weird to me, too. I feel so terribly sorry for those who have accepted it as part of their lives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. hubby and i both went to catholic
school.

yes. i agree that it's a terrible way to live with that kind of fear. we have enough stress to deal with in life, without worrying about hell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. The problem with the whole "burning in Hell for eternity" thing
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 03:40 PM by Sebastian Doyle
is that it's simply impossible. Now that's not to say for a fact whether Hell exists or not. But assuming it does, then you could only burn for a really short time, and then there would be nothing left to burn. And that's if you took your body with you, which you don't. Souls are flammable? What are they made out of, gasoline?

So if indeed there is some underworld ruled by this guy ----> :evilgrin: then whatever happens to you there isn't "burning", or it would be (pardon the pun) one HELL of a short eternity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. with god, all things are possible. i don't think the science lesson will persuade
believers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
59. Especially a god who believes in eternal torture
A god who hates people so much, it doesn't just kill - it tortures forever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. i think it might have been
george carlin who said "after the pain of burning, god revives you and you start to burn again". he was talking about the god who loves us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. my favorite of their idiotic sayings is
The wages of sin is death. Not only is it grammatically incorrect, but since everyone dies, it seems to be an impossibility. But what a chuckle. These people are truly stupid. Not ignorant; but stupid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1awake Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
40. The saying is weird but
it does not talk about physical death. Just letting you know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
46. I am pretty sure it means a spiritual death and not a physical one.
But really, there is no need to call people stupid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
85. It's grammatically incorrect now.
Well, unless you're into things like "the committee are
meeting" or "that band play really well" where
you get agreement by sense instead of by formal concord. 

It's called synesis. The KJV translators routinely used
"wages" with singular agreement.

Then again, we still have people struggling with the idea of
"singular they" and "impersonal you," both
of which were perfectly grammatical for Chaucer, for
Shakespeare, for Dickens, and even for current writers. But
not prescriptivists of nearly any stripe.

Russian has a ton of this kind of problem, where they show
gender on adjectives and past tense verbs: So "The good
doctor I saw yesterday studied in Saint Petersburg"
should have a masculine verb, but if the doctor's a she most
Russians will use a feminine verb. Almost all, but not all,
will use a masculine adjective ("good"), but if the
sentence is something like "The good doctor I saw
yesterday is pregnant" you're more likely to get a
feminine adjective as well. It's considered not so great to
use a feminine word for "doctor", but that solves
the problem. Prescriptivists have a nightmare and bemoan the
lack of proper "culture of speech," convinced that
the language of Pushkin and Tolstoy is best maintained by
ignoring how Pushkin and Tolstoy actually spoke and returning
to a hypothetical, ahistorical kind of linguistic purity. So
it's not an English-specific kind of intellectual conceit.

You also miss the strict parallelism and the fact that
thanatos and zoe might well be taken to have the same
modifier, aionios, since it agrees equally well with both and
the parallelism wouldn't be lost on the people reading Paul.
You lose that parallelism in English, I think.

τα  γαρ  
οψωνια  
  της    
αμαρτιας
θανατος

the for   provisions of-the  of-sin   death 

το  δε   
χαρισμα
   του    
θεου    
ζωη 
the but   gift       of-the  of-god   life 

αιωνιος
εν
χριστω
ιησου
τω
κυριω
ημων
eternal in Christ Jesus the lord our

"Provisions" or "provisions-money" is the
more usual translation outside the NT for
"opsonion". It's a metaphorical usage here.
"Gar" and "de" are clitics (nothing
obscene there, sorry) in case you're wondering about why the
conjunctions are placed after the definite articles
"ta" and "to".

Nonetheless, I guess you do have a kind of a point, although
try as I might I don't really see the logic: "But since
everyone dies, it seems to be an impossibility." I'm not
sure why it's an impossibility--everybody dies, and the theory
is that it's because everybody's sinned (well, with one
exception, and he allegedly agreed to die). I'm not sure
unfalsifiable hypotheses are generally considered impossible.
The problem is that the consequences, the conclusion, tends to
be universally true while the premise is unverifiable. To show
it's an impossibility I guess a first step would be to find an
immortal sinner. Good luck with that one. Although that would
knock the "All men are mortal; Socrates is a man"
start to the traditional syllogism right in the head.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. I was raised Baptist
And as a child I was regularly traumatized with the "burn in hell" rhetoric. I'm a Unitarian now and I have a zero tolerance policy for anyone who tries to traumatize my daughter the same way I was. I've had to run off some in laws over it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. i was traumatized as a child
with the thought of hell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. A whole lot of us were
It's a really screwed idea to me that a god who is supposed to love us so much would leave us to such a horrible fate. It's no wonder so many fundies I know have such screwed up ideas of what's acceptable in a "loving" relationship.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. when i was a child i played with
matches and burned my finger. the pain was so intense. that fear of burning scared the hell (no pun intended) out of me for years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
76. It never took with me. Devoute cradle Catholic that I was, I clearly recall knowing
that references to a fire-and-brimstone Hell were made up by humans. Perhaps that was an effect of daily catechism that was basically taught as Questions with Answers and weekly visits with the class from a parish priest that all of us saw every day but Saturday and who also conducted question and answer classes with our own original questions, not just the ones in the Baltimore Catechism.

Perhaps it was also the effect of my blue-collar philosopher Pappa, who never finished highschool, but who had such an inquisitive mind anyway that he loved questions at the dinner table like, "If God is all powerful, can he make a rock so big that he can't pick it up".

Maybe it was just that I came of age during the '60s when questioning authority was so much more common that I just got into the habit of thinking early.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. I gave up being afraid of hell when I realized
that that's where all the really good, fun people were going to end up- at least according to the threats. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pink-o Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. That's my conclusion as well!
Seems to me like Hell's the party place, full of revelers and people who aren't judgmental, just those that are being true to themselves and finding happiness in a landscape that doesn't give us a whole lotta roadmaps!!

So they might call it a Lake of Fire. I call it a barbecue, and we're gonna Par-tay!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. I haven't met very many christians in my life.
Though I have met thousands that said they were.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
73. i know exactly what you mean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. You know-
You're going to burn in hell for that OP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. Hell doesn't scare me....
I lived thru 8 years of Reagan and 8 years of Dumbya.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's a classic abusive relationship
Nothing is ever His fault, only good things come from the infallible God and all bad things happen because of your own human shortcomings.
You're told you are worthless in the eyes of the perfect God, and that he demands total obedience and worship or he'll torture you for eternity. If need be, he'll even kill your kids to teach you a lesson.

If God were human, he'd be in jail.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. lol. yes, he would be in jail.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. i'd rather burn in hell than fearfully worship her 'god' nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HappyCynic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. Been a long time...
It's been a long time since I've heard that as well. What I always found strange was its use as a "conversion tool". It's my opinion that belief is shaped by your experiences and knowledge and isn't really a conscious choice. You can't just decide to believe in something and have your beliefs automatically shift accordingly. You can't just think, "Today, I'll believe the earth is flat." and believe. You could act like you believed it but I doubt you could actually believe it. What you learn and experience is another story. Many experience what many would call luck and consider it miracles. Many see the beauty of the world and consider that a miracle. For a lot of people, this fuels their belief in a creator god. That being said, in numerous religions, "burn in hell" or the equivalent has been used to convert. If you convert out of fear, that's not a true conversion - it's just claiming to believe. And it'll be an effort doomed to failure. If your belief isn't sincere, you're just paying lip service, which doesn't really work with a god that can see into your heart/mind. It'd be similar with doing good deeds out of fear of hell. In this case, you're not doing it to do good. You're doing it to cover your ass. Again, not an effective move when it comes to a god that can see past all that.
For those who have read this far, thanks for sticking with my long, rambling post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. you are absolutely right.
i didn't become an atheist over night. it was something that evolved over the years.

jews don't believe in hell and many don't believe in an afterlife. we had a debate going a few years ago on another board. one poster who was a baptist said "if you don't believe in heaven or hell what keeps you from sinning? the answer was "because it just feels good to be a good person and do good things." he couldn't understand that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
20. When you were her age, did you still hold to catholic beliefs? Or we you atheists by then? Try to be
tolerant, especially of a grandchild.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. my granddaughter is 30. i have 2
great granddaughters ages 6 and 10.

at age 30, no i didn't and i'm very respectfull of her religious beliefs. she knows i'm an atheist. we rarely discuss religion. the comment was made the other night because she was afraid she might do something that was a sin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
21. i'm sorry you have to suffer this.
but we all do, because the hell is HERE and NOW for many. what else can you imagine can be worse, for some.

I have no idea what you can do. Maybe just give examples of what freaking hell has been unleashed on people here on earth and how can it possibly be worse????? and if there is a god and hell, it makes much more sense he sends the mass murderers and toruturers to hell than people that get off the path now and then.

I was brought up catholic and made to feel everything I did was 'wrong' was sending me closer to hell. Its taken forver to get over that and I still feel it today in my life.

Save her
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. she has an interesting religious background.
she was born to a jewish mother who converted to catholicism. she had my granddaughter baptized catholic when she was 6. sent her to catholic school. when my granddaughter was in her early-mid-20s she became a "born again".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
24. I must say, from Catholicism to atheist, is quite a stretch! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. it is, but like i said it didn't
happen overnight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. It really isn't
I, too, attended Catholic School, and now am on the fence between agnosticism and atheism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Yes, it really is. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Well, would you care to explain how that is so?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Not particularly. The OP understood my point. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. There isn't really a "fence" between atheism and agnosticism..
Since agnosticism and atheism really don't speak to the same thing.

Agnosticism is about the inability to know for sure whether there is a god or not while atheism is about either a lack of belief in a god or a belief there is no god.

It is possible to be an agnostic who nevertheless believes there is a god (in other words a theist) and it is also possible to be an agnostic atheist of either flavor..

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. When one is on the fence
he is unsure of which stance to firmly abide by. Hence I am on the fence between agnosticism and atheism, although I am probably leaning toward agnosticism. When one commits to either full on theism or full on atheism, one has a pretty solid belief that there is or isn't a god. Well, then show me the proof either way. My philosophy is: I'll find out what happens when I die, and until then just be a good person to yourself and to others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
70. I call myself an atheist in that I lack a belief in god..
But I'm also an agnostic in that I do not have proof and indeed I think definitive proof either way is impossible.

If you read Richard Dawkins you will find that he is also an agnostic atheist, he does not categorically deny the possibility of a god, he just thinks such a being is highly unlikely.

Agnosticism can be a middle ground between atheism and theism but it doesn't have to be.

Consider that Mother Teresa had extreme doubts about her faith for much of her life and yet very few people would call her an atheist or an agnostic.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #70
95. Very true points...
Well, then I guess I fall into the Dawkins category.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #43
126. Same here. Wonderfully stated.
My grandmother was a Christian in the best sense of the word (or what I perceive to be a Christian). She married my grandfather when he was a widower with five children to raise in pre WWII Germany. These children loved her, and I could not have wished for a better grandmother.

I never heard her speak ill of a person. She was sweet, kind, gentle and I loved her from the very bottom of my heart. Let my grandmother around ailing animals and brown plants.. they would start thriving again.

We would go to church together on Sundays. Her faith had deep roots and, what is most important, she lived her faith. I, on the other hand, have always had my doubts. I really envy those who either with great conviction say "There is no God" or those who are sure of his everlasting presence.

I'm stuck. I want to believe, but can't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
55. my husband is agnostic.
he believes in some kind of greater spiritual force...but he does not buy into any organized religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. Not at all. I am familiar with many former catholic atheists.
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 04:54 PM by juno jones
Likewise I'd say something like as many as 75% of pagans are former catholics. A few of these are still 'catholic' but have incorporated their earth gods/goddesses ala the saints.

At the root, catholocism is fairly liberal and often free-thinking. It's the power and dogma trumpeted pubically by infallible celibate white men that poisons it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. It may be 'common' but nevertheless, a stretch. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. santeria has incorporated the
saints, but they still consider themselves to be catholic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
80. This particular fallen Catholic digs the Bhagavad Gita.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #80
110. i have a very good friend who
likes it too. also a former catholic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
41. Made that trip myself
And since they really heap that "burn in hell" shit on you early in Catholic school, it is a very long trip.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
26. I never cared for a religion that taught God created people so he'd have somebody to torture.
That's some sick, sociopathic God they believe in.

I got that crap for years in Catholic school, but now, 55 years later, I'm happy to say I am a fully recovered Ex-Catholic, and now an atheist/agnostic-Buddhist. I believe that there probably is no God, but there might be. If there is, He certainly isn't the kind of bipolar emotionally crippled God of the Bible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. my beliefs tend towards
buddhism.

back in the early 80s, i had a friend who told me i was the only ex-catholic she ever met who had completely escaped it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HappyCynic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Justification
Many organizations, religious or otherwise, will use religion as a justification for their actions. For many, it's a very selective reading and/or dubious extrapolation/interpretation of the texts. It's not necessarily true (or in a lot of cases, even close) to the core teachings of the faith. The over-reliance on the exact wording of religious texts brings to mind an article I read a few years back. It was in the magazine "Skeptic". The basic point of the article was that Creationism is blasphemy. The argument is basically this (or at least how I remember it):
1. The world is the creation of god.
2. The religious texts are the word of god interpreted and written down by humans.
3. Humans are fallible.
4. Creationists go by the literal text of the holy books.
5. Therefore, the Creationists are giving priority to the words of flawed humanity rather than the works of a god.
And that, of course, is the blasphemous act of putting more faith in humans than in god.
I think the basic problem is that many people put all their faith in the religious organizations they are a part of (and behave/teach accordingly) instead of examining the core beliefs of the faith and deciding for themselves what is good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
97. Literalists don't believe translations are interpretations
They believe the KJV and NIV are the literal Word of God.

When challenged, they fall into logical fallacy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
keep_it_real Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
36. Nothing to due with an after life but check out
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
39. I thought the Catholics changed their minds on "Hell"
at least the old time fire and brimstone version of it....and also didn't they officially close the office of Purgatory?

I cannot keep up with all these changes!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. i know purgatory is gone.
i wonder what happened to all those souls who ate meat on friday after the church changed on that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #42
83. actually purgatory is still around -- it was "limbo" that went out of business
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #83
90. limbo -- that was the place
where babies who weren't baptized went.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
4 t 4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. I was raised by a Woman
that was raised by an extremely Catholic woman. A Woman that carried "the infant of Prague on her person at all times. They were all sent to Catholic schools and made to go to Church every Sunday. The woman I was raised by ( my Mother ) rebelled!!! My Aunt was pregnant with her forth child, with no money and a husband that wasn't so nice. Thy Had no money and an extremely hard go of it. She went to her local Priest for guidance and help as to what to do because she felt if she had to have this child with no money and no support from her Husband she would just go crazy and be no good to any of her other kids.The local Priest told her to go home and TH God she wa with child and em brace her husband,The Priest Then got in his Limo with his Velvet Cloak ( being childless) and went to a beautiful and elegant lunch with his local chapter,at lunch salmnon, something that hardly anyone could afford was served while your local slobs ate beans. Tell me about these wonderful people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. when my parents divorced, the parish
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 07:20 PM by DesertFlower
priest told my mom that she had sinned because when she signed the separation agreement she said that she would not contest a divorce. she never went back to church after that. however, she made sure that my sisters and i did. the remainder of her life was spent as a non-practicing catholic.

on edit: my mom used to torture my dad's second wife who was also catholic and had been married before. mom would call dad (for whatever reason). if his wife answered my mother would ask to speak to him. the new wife would say "who's calling"? my mom would say "his wife". the new wife would scream "i'm his wife, i'm his wife". my mom would reply very calmly "ask your priest which one of us is his wife".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
82. You are talking about ONE person and 2nd hand info at best. And yes I can tell
you about some wonderful Catholics . . .


(and Methodists, and Unitarians, and Pagans, and . . . ALL of which have flaws and all of which also have Beauty).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Generic Brad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. Possibly, but my Catholic relatives never got that memo
9/11 seemed to bring out the fear of hell back to them. I'll never forget getting blamed for 9/11 because atheists like me had given up on the one true God. Apparently my not going to church made terrorists want to attack New York in addition to me burning in hell for eternity. As my mother said, she didn't make the rules; she was just the messenger.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. i'm sorry you had to
go through that.

i'm 68. my parents and aunts and uncles are all gone, but even when they were alive no one bugged me about giving up my religion. i was always considered the "black sheep" of the family.

when i divorced my first husband, i mentioned that i'd probably re-marry at some point. my grandmother said i couldn't do that because i had been married in the catholic church. she lived to see me re-marry but never said a word about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
45. It is unfair to blame a potential saviour for those cretins. They are religious.
Religion, not God makes up the bullshit about hell, the devil and such. They serve just like santa claus does. If you are not good, all friggin year, you will not get goodies. It is a man made guilt trip. Not God's.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Well I guess that all depends on if you believe Revelation or at
least interpret it as a warning of the future. Of course, Revelation has always been hugely debated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. No, it doesnt, that is why I said potential!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. ok, well I was stating that for those who do believe there is a Savior.
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 07:18 PM by Shell Beau
And it does vary for people who believe. Revelation is a much debated book of the Bible. While many believe it is a warning of our future, others believe it is clearly symbolic. And Hell is thoroughly discussed in that book.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. The hell you refer to comes form Dante's Inferno.
The hell in Revelations is somewhat vague, and symbolic. Burning in hell, in my estimation, is being so wrapped up in your ego, that becoming part of just being, doesnt get you the kissass you were accustomed to in life. So, you tell God/Jesus etc, to shove off, youll handle your own eternity. And you pine for another decision later.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. I am a Christian so I do believe there is a hell.
It may be a symbolic hell. I don't think it is people burning forever. And I also don't think that everyone who isn't a Christian "goes" there. I always thought of hell as basically just not being able to be in Heaven. But I still get conflicted about things and beliefs as far as religion and Christianity go. I question a lot of things, and I try to educate myself as best I can. Of course so many here believe it is all hogwash, so I don't state my beliefs too often.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #66
77. i've said in several posts that
i didn't become an atheist overnight. i educated myself. i read up on other religions and came to the conclusion that there is no god.

i studied metaphysics and what i learned was when you die you create your own reality. so if you believe in hell that's what you're going to experience. same with heaven.

if there is a god, it's because we created him/her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. hubby and i were talking
about dante's inferno last night. was it 7 or 9 levels of hell? i remember reading the book in the mid 60s.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
75. the bible was written by man.
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 08:25 PM by DesertFlower
i haven't read all of it, but it seems to be very violent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. I haven't read it all either. I have read much of it.
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 08:37 PM by Shell Beau
Some parts are violent, but there is also a lot about love, forgiveness, helping fellow man, etc. I believe the Bible was written by man but through God and Christian religions came about after Jesus. I guess we could go on about this, but you are an atheist and I am a Christian. I respect your stance, but I don't share it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. and i respect yours.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. Lookie there! We just had a civil discussion about religion!!!! In GD!!!
;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. lol.
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #87
107. When you break it down to what you know philosophically
It isnt so contentious. I am a christian, and dont know where I am going, and in a small sense, dont care. Aint my doin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #81
108. For a real hoot, read Alan Watts book comparing the incredible similarities of Buddhism, and Christi
christianity. All religion that is legitimate, teaches killing the Ego. They all approach it differently, but when the ego goes, you have no fear, no strife, no hate, anger, insecurity, selfishness.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Alias Dictus Tyrant Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
51. Actually, it is more like a slow-cooked roast.
They make gravy with the drippings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #51
88. Gives new meaning to "low and slow".
Cheeseburger in paradise, pulled pork in hell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
52. Heaven doesn't want me and Hell is afraid I'll take over - so I'll be homeless
Actually, I didn't make that up, but it fits. :7

I wasn't raised Catholic. I'm sort of a mongrel.

Baptized into a Baptist Church, made my Confirmation at a Congregational Church, then became an Agnostic/Atheist myself, although I do like the Native American spiritualism thing.

My parents were raised Catholic, and my father went on to become an Atheist, which he never gave up till the day he died, although he did joke around and say that when he died, he would probably go to Hell, but at least his feet would be warm.

My mother stayed Catholic but brought us kids to the Protestant church down the street.

After my parents divorced and she married her second husband, she became a practicing Catholic again. When the second husband died, I suppose she stopped going to church, and now she has a new manfriend and attends his church (Lutheran) with him.

If I remember correctly, the only person who actually said I would burn in hell was one of my younger sisters, a Born Again Christian, who got sucked brought into the church by her child molester husband. I have to laugh...they actually called me a "heathen" one time.

:+

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
suede1 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
54. Someone said that to me about 10 years ago and I had the same reaction you did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
56. My husband has had the "joy" of being informed several times that as a Jew he will certainly fry...
... now that he has been told about Jesus and yet has continued to be a Jew. He says he has long since been able to see it coming: some fundy will befriend him, chat him up about the Bible, and then... ka-pow!

True Believers don't have to be nice when delivering The Good News.

My poor young niece never experienced this until she went to live and work in Bakersfield, CA. Bakersfield is so RW and fundy that it cured her Republican husband of being Republican, and it made her want to raise their kids nearly anywhere else.

I'm really sorry to hear about your granddaughter. My daughter's first husband was a fundy, but she got over it, thank Goddess, and reverted to her Unitarian roots.

Hekate



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. my granddaughter's husband
is a fundie. he walks around quoting verses from the bible. one night when i was on the phone with her, he was on his cell phone with a friend. she said "can you hear him"? i said yes, but couldn't hear what he was saying. she said "he's on the phone with his friend and they're praying".

he finds old college friends and sends them e-mails talking about jesus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. those poor jews. they
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 08:08 PM by DesertFlower
can't be "saved".

my sister was a devout catholic. she was going to become a nun. then she turned 16 and discovered boys and sex. at that point she didn't practice any religion. then about 20 years ago (she was about 40) she converted to judaism. when she started her studies she told our mom. she thought mom would be upset, but mom was glad that she believed in "something".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
57. When people talk about "burning in hell" I think of this song
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 07:28 PM by csziggy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #57
79. that's cool or should i say hot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mudplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
58. A lot of kids are extremely literal (I was at that age). I tended to believe
what adults I trusted told me. Until I turned thirteen and it suddenly occurred to me while I was saying my prayers, "I don't think anyone is listening."

Then I began to test things adults told me, and as a result began to distrust everything adults told me, which meant that I had to make a lot of easily avoidable mistakes throughout life. "They lied to me about marijuana. Maybe they were lying when they said alcohol was dangerous."

Children under the age of 12 generally don't have the capacity of abstract reasoning, but you can still tell them the truth. Just take time to have a respectful discussion about "the truth" with them.

"Honey, I don't believe there is such a thing as hell. I know some people believe it and I respect their right to believe it, but I don't, and I don't think you'll ever burn in hell, no matter what you do or say. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be good or that god doesn't want you to be good and that it hurts him when you are bad (more or less what my mother told me at age seven)."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
60. I was told that often growing up, by priests.
Especially after they told me that my favorite dead rock stars would be burning in hell, I said I'd prefer to burn with them than hang out in "heaven" with the church ladies and fundies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xfundy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
62. Nothin' says lovin'...
like eternity in the oven!

My experience is like that of many. I was terrified of that "loving" 'god,' and my Southern Batpissed mother kept pushing religionist shit at me from a young age. "End times" books, Chick Tracts, fundie articles, etc. She used to talk about how she "knew" one Fall day that it would all be over soon because the leaves were so pretty. I was in a terrified state for many years, to the point of even thinking I might be 'the antichrist' (seriously) because mom said he would be about my age.

later I studied on it and realized I wanted no part of religion, period. I think a lot of people the ignorant god botherers have screwed up are reexamining the ORGANIZED CRIME the church in America has perpetuated.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
67. 'Hell' was invented by the church to keep the sheeple in line...
In line with *their* dogma, of course.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. and to keep the money coming in. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Not necessarily. Revelation talks about fire and brimstone.
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 08:16 PM by Shell Beau
The church may have taken that and run with it. It is also talked about in other books of the Bible. Matthew, Mark, Daniel...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
69. I believe there are consequences for who/what one is. I think the superstition about a place where
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 08:10 PM by patrice
there is fire and devils and such is a childish over-simplification exploited by people who have an interest in doing so.

On edit: A childish over-simplification that oh so conveniently allows people to displace the consequences for who/what they are into some other time-place, over which they yet retain the power of negotiation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
74. Religion in general has been, for thousands of years, nothing more than a tool to
keep the unwashed masses in line.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
78. Plenty of religions have hell
In some of the older ones, any after life at all was dreary at best. In Christianity, the concept of Heaven seems a perfectly reasonable consolation prize, but it would seem that hell gets the most of us, according to the bible. Getting into heaven seems a long shot at best.

Here's an interesting biblical comparison from the SAB;
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/hell.html

But no more from me, I'll let the master, George Carlin speak (from the dead as it were)

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

(for the rest)
http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #78
91. isn't that the one where he says
"it's all bullshit and it's bad for you"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #78
94. Yes, a Japanese client of mine a long time ago, a Buddhist, told me that they
also have a kind of Hell but not like ours. Somehow the subject came up because I guess he ran into some Christian fundamentalists and asked me about it because he didn't understand Christian thinking on it. I guess most people believe that bad deeds should be punished if not in this life in the afterlife but the fundies are just using it as a fear tactic to keep their congregations in line.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #94
113. my rolfer is a buddhist.
he said when you die you go through some scary stuff. said i should read the tibetan book of the dead. if you understand it, it won't be as frightening. maybe that's the hell your client was talking about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. I don't know. Since he was Japanese, their Buddhists are a little different
than the Tibetans. He also practiced Shinto. There seemed to be no conflict with him, something I found unusual since I was raised as a Catholic and you had to be one or the other, not both.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #115
116. my rolfer started studying zen buddhism
when he was in college. he's 67 now and an ordained buddhist monk. his wife is a buddhist and that's how they raised their 3 girls. one daughter is married to a buddhist monk. they live at the monastery in california.

he's a real great guy. he was a professor of philosophy at purdue before becoming a rolfer. he's got an interesting sense of humor and has written several books.

a few years ago he developed parkinson's. so far the meds are keeping things under control. i have chronic fatigue syndrome, scoliosis and IBS. i asked him if it's karma. he said "not necessarily -- sometimes shit just happens".

not to get off the subject, but he was paying over $1,000 a month for health insurance. when he reached 65 he was so happy to get medicare.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #116
118. I'm glad he has Medicare.
My dad had Parkinson's and he was able to live out his years with medical attention and relative comfort because of Medicare. Everyone should have it regardless of age. Your rolfer sounds like a really spiritual person. It's nice to know there are still people like that around and we are going to need them after the fundies wreck this country. I don't believe in karma in that sense either. I think karma just haunts the psyches of people who do wrong even if they live out their lives in comfort and security like GWB seems to be doing. People who suffer from chronic diseases sometimes have more peace mentally than those other people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. i agree. everyone should have
medicare. i wonder if people our age will live long enough to see it happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #119
120. You are going to have to fight to make sure it doesn't go away.
You know that old people have been fighting to keep them from taking away Social Security almost from the day the law was passed. The right has always tried to. There used to be the Gray Panthers, who were old people of my mother's generation who fought for it so that my generation can have it. I haven't heard any Gray Panther talk though recently. Maybe they all died and now my generation has to fight for it for you. It's just so much harder because of the lobby power in Washington that is so much more than in my mother's day and my father's day. Yes, but thank you for reminding me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
86. I remember in Catholic school that all the accusations from the nuns that
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 09:00 PM by Cleita
we were going straight to Hell, just made us laugh. Even as kids we thought it was preposterous. Your granddaughter needs some mentoring. You can have spiritual beliefs without having to buy into the fire and brimstone fairy tale. btw, even the Catholic theologians don't believe in that kind of Hell. Since the afterlife is not flesh and blood but spirit, Heaven and Hell are also that. Mostly Hell is regarded as not being in the presence of God because you yourself rejected the godhead, not the other way around. I'm not saying that I believe this. I'm only saying that even that kind of physical Hell is mostly rejected even by believers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #86
92. Yep. And something else that ISN'T THERE in Christian Dogma is the eternal
life of the you that you know as you.

And, Orthodox Jews, THE source of Christianity don't even necessarily believe in "Life after Death".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
93. imho, i am currently burning in hell
burning up negative karma..suffering..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. Actually, psychic and grifter Sylvia Browne claims that earth is Hell and we
will keep becoming reincarnated right here in Hell until we get it right and move on. She did make an interesting point that the really evil people in the world like the BFEE do really well even in this Hell because they have become so used to coming back that they've figured out ways to beat the system. I know. Sylvia is a con artist. But the idea is an interesting one if you want to think about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. That's taken straight out of Gnosticism
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. Is it? I never read any Gnosticism, but I wouldn't doubt it.
She has a habit of borrowing from others and claiming she got it from her spirit guides.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. I've mixed my Catholicism with karma
and kinda think of it a purgatory.. ya keep coming back to purge the negative karma until you get it right..

peace and low stress and thank you for the reply..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. You know even my Baptist Aunt Frances had a purgatory version of Hell.
In her Hell, it wasn't forever, just until you got all the bad stuff you did paid for and then you could go to Heaven.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #101
104. I've heard this term, "ground luminosity"
when you die, in theory, the God within you (the Atman?) and "God" (Brahman) become one - you have all Divine knowledge (everything God knows, you know) at your disposal.
A person can accept ground luminosity, and reach heaven (become enlightened), or turn away from ground luminosity and face rebirth..
Whatever turns you away from ground luminosity is what decides your rebirth (karma)..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #101
114. i remember we were told
to pray for the poor souls in purgatory.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #96
106. yes. i've listened to sylvia.
she has some interesting views.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sheepshank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
102. Some consider burning in hell forever something to avoid..
Edited on Sat Feb-06-10 09:49 PM by Sheepshank
In Mormonism, going to Heaven means women get to procreate for ever. Birth after birth after birth. Populating worlds without end. Three hundred million billion years, and they are still not done procreating. Heaven? Who needs hell lol.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Obviously a religion invented and promulgated by men. Of course they get to
do the fun part of the procreating and then move on to the next wife.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. i thought mormon women who
had a lot of children became goddesses when they got to heaven.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sheepshank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. their jobs will be to procreate, regardless of their title
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #112
117. they don't even get a break in paradise?
Edited on Sun Feb-07-10 12:35 AM by DesertFlower
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
109. Fire insurance is no reason to decide to become a Christian.
Unfortunately this is reinforced in americanized Christianity all too often.

They want God to save them from something, get them OUT of something.

And totally ignore that, in return, Christ wants them to live their lives so that they may become more like HIM.

If someone wants to get the fire insurance, and the cheap grace that allows you to do the most horrid things and claim "God will forgive," they should also realize that this will make for very shallow spiritual relationship, and a poor witness to others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-06-10 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
111. I'm what I like to refer to as a "recovering born again"
I tried to get into religion and actually got roped into the Talibornagain propaganda for a while, but then 9/11 hit and all the crazy extremists like Falwell and Dobson started coming out of the woodwork, and I was just like "Is this really a group I want to be a part of?"

I quote the late great George Carlin - "I used to be Irish Catholic until I reached the age of reason."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indy legend Donating Member (484 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #111
122. I am a christian...
.. but I am also very progressive / liberal in my views. I don't claim to have all the answers. All I have is what I believe in my heart from what I have been taught and experienced in my own life. I know from what I was taught that the Jesus the Bible speaks of was a very liberal person. He healed the sick, fed the the hungry, and stood up for the most vulnerable of society and in the end gave up his own life for all and he never charged a dime for his services and never turned those who believed away. He couldn't be anymore different than the fundamental, right wing wacka doodles who claim to be christians today. I don't know if there is a literal hell, or heaven for that matter, but I do know that if there is a hell some of the most surprised people are going to be the supposed christian Republicans who wake there with so many of their friends who cared about nothing but money and themselves and won't have a clue as to how they got there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #122
124. See here's the thing - I never identify myself with any particular religion.
I identify myself as spiritual though - but the thing is the tenants of modern Christianity isn't to teach about who Jesus was or what he stood for - he stood for the same thing that a lot of my heroes - like John Lennon and Bob Marley stood for, and that is peace and unity. Modern religion doesn't teach that at all. Modern religion is to preach and judge - even though the Bible itself says "judge not lest ye be judged". I think that if modern Christianity were to drop those practices they'd get a lot more members.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobwithout Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
121. Intellectually dishonest
You do mean to offend people religious belief or you wouldn't even bring this up, at least admit it.
Tell me what you intended to communicate when you wrote "it seems like it was some kind of fairytale that we were told as children -- kinda like the easter bunny and santa claus". Did you mean to say, "I respect your right to believe different than me" or did you mean " I know that one of our core rights is the freedom or religion and even though I disagree with you I will embrace the diversity you bring to the table?"

What exactly were you meaning to say by writing "it seems like it was some kind of fairytale that we were told as children -- kinda like the easter bunny and santa claus."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #121
123. It's a subtle swipe at Christians.
Liberal bigots (that's not an oxymoron) do it here all the time when it comes to religion--especially Christianity. They treat Christians with the same disdain that right wing hacks treat gays. It balances things out I guess.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
125. Chinese author Lin Yutang had a good answer.
He compiled the first Chinese-English dictionary. His parents were missionaries.

He asked them, "How can I burn and suffer in hell if I don't have a body?".

They were stumped.

It's so sad that millions of people live in sheer terror every day and every minute of their lives because they believe what somebody else told them.

I think people make their own hell on earth, or their own heaven on earth, by their thoughts. Also, taking into account that shit happens, randomly, and we can't control it. We have to survive it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
127. it's been a while
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL3C_eAtlS0

and I kinda like the song, although not so much this live version

the question is whether you are decent.

What makes a human being decent?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWshPH_jsjQ&feature=related

Ecclesiastes writes that the wise conclusion is to "fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man"

the Koran several times admonishes people to "believe in God and the Last Day and do what is right" Sura 2: 62

Benjamin Franklin wrote that he never doubted that virtue would be rewarded and vice punished, either here or in the hereafter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
128. When I was little ....
A neighbor who was a Fundie took me to church with her kids. She wasn't trying to convert me or anything, it was more of a social occasion for me, but a serious part of her life. The whole thing was a really strange experience for me. Then the preacher got to the part about burning in Hell and lovingly described the suffering, "like being in the middle of a million burning Christmas Trees, skin peeling off, no end to the agony." At that point I was scared to death.

I went home and had nightmares for days. Finally I found the words to ask my Mother about it and if I was going to go there. She looked at me very sadly and said, "No. A believes that because she is a little addled in the head and can't find enough within herself to live without someone else telling her every move to make. I don't think there is a Hell and if there is, children don't go to Hell. If God is your father and he loves you he wouldn't do that to you." Then she told me I was a good girl and not to be afraid anymore.

That attitude stayed with me. My Grandpa said we make our own Hell in life and that death brings peace and rest. He had fought in World War I, been gassed and it ripped his life apart. I figured that made him something of an authority.

I am a Quaker. We don't believe specifically in Hell. We believe that a spark of God lives in everyone and that we all have the same importance and equality regardless of who we are, where we live or what we believe. All of us know truth and we all reach out to God to the best of our ability, and God reaches out to us in return. When we die most of us believe that we go back to where we begin and back to the light. We question a lot, none of us believes exactly the same thing, because everyone has a bit of the truth, but no one has the whole of the truth. That is why we live and search, to get closer to it somehow. We are not evangelical and I would not have volunteered this except the thread is specific to beliefs. I think that what faith or spiritual center you need you will find and gravitate to, and that is what you need. No one has the right to try and change that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. See, that's the thing that ticks me off.
How many other people heard that awful sermon and decided to become a Christian out of FEAR?

If they did, they decided to follow Christ out of the wrong motivation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. Exactly ....
At the time I was seven years old. How many children do they scare into fits who don't even understand what life is yet much less death and what happens afterwords? None of us really know what happens after we die. No one has ever come back to describe the process. That is why we speculate and seek different explanations and beliefs.

I have a lot of contempt for people who scare children like that. Adults have the capacity to try to reason it out and reject it, but where does a child start to do that? They simply do not have any frame of reference. Not everyone wants or needs a spiritual foundation built through religion. Others do have a great need and build their lives around the search of it, sometimes to the exclusion of having a happy and fulfilling existence. I love Leonard Cohen's music and poetry, but his life was so deeply entrenched in finding a religion that answered every question he had that it seemed he was always fighting himself and was more than half in despair all the time. I read an interview with him later in life where he discussed the realization that he had clinical depression, and how some of the medications he began taken made him wonder if God was just a need for an SSRI. Then he stopped taking the medication and went back to wine because the search had become so much a part of him that he couldn't live without it. I can see that emptiness in a lot of the most fanatical people. I don't have the answers myself, but I'm so sad and tired of seeing people mutilated spiritually and emotionally in the name of religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-07-10 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
129. I burned the hell out of some chicken recently does that count?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC