Helen Thomas: " President Barack Obama does have a foreign policy. It's called war."

Obama, the war president


First published: Monday, February 8, 2010

President Barack Obama does have a foreign policy. It's called war.

The President has not defined any real difference between his hawkish approach to international issues and that of his predecessor, former President George W. Bush.

Where's the change we can believe in?

Bush left a legacy of two wars, neither of which was ever fully explained or justified. Obama has merely picked up the sword that Bush left behind in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In the struggle against terrorism, one might say, "Who cares?"

more:
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/storyprint.asp?StoryID=898236

Anyone know the status of the Bush Doctrine?

in simple language. Bravo Helen - all US Presidents are hawks.

Not chillin'. Bam! Bam! Boom! ain't no peaceniks in this room!'

Obama 2012...We saw..we came..we killed.

YOU CAN"T HANSDLE THE TRUUUUUTH!


Actually, I'm kind of torn here. Helen versus Obama. My head hurts. She can keep my flowers.

What about the smaller number of troops that will remain in a country that relies on U.S. forces to maintain order?

:D

since my son deploys to Iraq and will be part of the occupation force until at least February 2011.

(and illegal covert incursions into a neighboring country with whom we are nominally at peace).

There is no level and no context in which our military presence in the Middle East is a good thing.

It makes money; it makes careers; it keeps political footballs in the air, but it is disastrous in every other way.

are soft on communism and terra and weak on national defense and thus free from the fear of messing one's own pants if accused of such softness and weakness: hence, the culmination of the 'pukes wet dream of perpetual bogeymen and wars. :P

by perpetually staying at war.

I understand.

a money-laundering operation, under cover of war, thousands of miles away in the early 21st century.

:applause:

Keep up the truth-telling Helen! :yourock:

Because you do.:)


So does Helen.:)

The War on Education is still going well.

The War on the Middle and Lower Classes is still on with a few diversions.

The War on our Constitution, habeas corpus, and Democracy are going full bore.

The War on South American governments is proceeding quietly.

Oh, that crusade thing is still on too.

So many, it's hard to keep up.

but never gets a chance with Obama. What's up with that?

Floating hearts to a very great lady!:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:


helen has never wimped out no matter who was in office!

That's what "good" is all about.

It is in her heart, soul and guts. It is who she is.






:loveya:

Helen, really... you were way wrong on that. You're way wrong on this.

He's opened channels with countries Bush never dreamed of talking to. To bubble his foreign policy down to war, is, well hyperbolic.

you and I are about the only ones who notice that helen thomas can just spout bullshit and she's put up on a pedestal so they can all bow down.

He blew it within the first few weeks in office.

k&r

'ouch' for the brevity of the comment
'+' for the person saying it

Explains the present, too.

Anyone for war? No. So, what the hell?

the military industrial complex.

She rocks me like a hurricane. One of the few real journalists left in this country.

a peaceful future.

K&R

Helen :yourock:

Keep telling it like it is, Helen!! TRUTH above all!

K&R!

He has shown a great ability to deal positively with matters in a variety of areas.
He got the Russians to back off their missiles in Kalingrad by scrapping the missile defense in Poland.
He's got people talking to Syria
He's been more open to discussions with the North Koreans
He's got people talking WITH and listening TO a variety of African and Arab states, rather than dictating what should be done.

from Mark Leon Goldberg at UN Dispatch: http://www.undispatch.com/node/9491


He has summoned bedrock progressive principals to re-calibrate America’s role in the world. Through a policy of engagement with international institutions and cooperation abroad, the administration has racked up an impressive set of foreign policy achievements after just one year. Oh -- and in the process, Obama has shown the uselessness of an arrogant go-it-alone foreign policy that was the hallmark of American foreign policy just a couple of years ago.

Some of these achievements have been relatively high profile, others behind the scenes. On the non-proliferation front, the Obama administration “reset” American policy with Russia and is engaging in a new round of nuclear arms reduction. When North Korea launched a nuclear test in May, the Obama administration led the Security Council in passing the strongest set of sanctions in Council history. In September, Obama chaired a Security Council meeting on nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation—the first time in history that an American president has done so. The meeting resulted in the unanimous adoption of a resolution that imposed new provisions to deter countries from withdrawing from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and the endorsement of stricter export controls and safeguards, among other measures. The Bulletin of Atomic Sciences cited these efforts in its decision this month to move back the “Doomsday Clock” to six minutes to midnight.


. . . The administration reversed Bush administration’s policy to support a UN General Assembly resolution condemning the outlaw of homosexuality. The administration is also supporting the International Criminal Court’s action against Sudanese President Omar Bashir, who is accused of genocide in Darfur. And, for the first time in eight years, the United States participated (as an observer) at a meeting of the ICC.

President Obama has done more to support UN peacekeeping than any American president in recent history. Over 100,000 peacekeepers, only a handful of which are American, are deployed to 17 global hotspots . . .

There are a number of other examples, big and small, that show the extent to which the Obama administration has demonstrated a committment to the premise of constructive global enagement. Individually, each of these steps -- and others -- have helped to restore the United States to its rightful place as a global power that is respected not only for its military might, but for its moral leadership. To be sure, the administration’s record is not perfect; the future of Afghanistan remains unclear and the process of closing Guantanamo has taken longer than expected. But that should not obscure that in one year, the Obama administration has marshaled progressive foreign policy principals to deliver tangible gains for the United States . . .

more: http://www.undispatch.com/node/9491

in terms of how people in other countries perceive us.

And we certainly deserve that!!

THanks

and I think that difference will become more clear as the years pass especially when it comes to Iran and Israel.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I would like him to get more down to earth about his vision for a lot of things!

but this is Republican policy that only brings shame to the Democratic party for not being in opposition due to partisan justification and rationalization. We are better than that, or so I thought.

That poster was simply expressing opposition to war. Was your intent to advise Helen Thomas to STFU?

:sarcasm:

On Edit: By having my response deleted, you took my response to soylent out of context. For the record:

The STFU was preceded by "Didn't you get the memo? He didn't promise "no warring". Then STFU. And then, the STFU was followed with "please".

I am sorry you didn't get the obvious sarcasm in "Didn't you get the memo? He didn't promise "no warring". STFU, please." I think there was more text that should have made it obvious, but I am not 100% sure.

In any event, I will be more careful about pointing out my sarcasm in the future.

Without outlining every diplomatic initiative, I can still assert very confidently that this administration's foreign policy involves much more than 'war'. It's fair to say that the dual occupations dominate their foreign policy agenda, but this is just a false and unfair statement, no matter how we view the effects and consequences of the occupations.

The one who started them is criminal and the one who continues them is criminal!SSso it does damn sure matter how one or we view the wars..they are fucking criminal!

The effects and consequences of this administration continuing these wars is just as criminal as those who started them!

Read the Nuremberg trials transcripts!

Your statements are blindly false!

I suppose you felt the same way about Bush and his war ..right?? or are you just a hypocrite now?

The statement was that the president does not have a foreign policy.

Ms. Thomas made the assertion that the president's foreign policy is merely war. That's just false, no matter how you view the occupations. There is a robust foreign policy from this administration which certainly involves more than a focus on Afghanistan and Iraq. I don't know how anyone can credibly argue that the diplomatic and other international initiatives this administration is engaged in all involve 'war'. A misleading and unproductive statement from someone who I admire; especially to those of us who follow the diplomatic initiatives of this administration intimately.

And, I suggest you save your anti-war rantings for someone who's actually inclined to disagree with you.

wars.

There just isn't.

Nor is there anything diplomatic about supporting Hamid Karzai.

http://www.wrmea.com/component/content/article/346-2010-january-february/7862-president-obamas-afghanistan-qsurgeq.html

snip;
Despite Obama’s embrace of these new national security arguments, however, he has rejected within the past few weeks the critical link in the national security argument for deploying tens of thousands of additional troops—the allegedly indissoluble link between the Taliban insurgency and al-Qaeda.

snip;
But during September and October, Obama sought to fend off escalation in Afghanistan in part by suggesting through other White House officials that the interests of the Taliban were no longer coincident with those of al-Qaeda.

snip;

To avoid being outmaneuvered by the military, Obama suggested in a press conference that the legitimacy of the Afghan government might now be so damaged by the blatantly fraudulent Aug. 20 election as to put into question a counterinsurgency strategy such as the one advanced in McChrystal’s assessment.


Obama also raised a red flag about the conventional argument from national security, saying he wasn’t going to “think that by sending more troops, we’re automatically going to make Americans safe.”

snip:

Only three days later, however, The New York Times reported that “senior administration officials” were saying privately that Obama’s national security team was now “arguing that the Taliban in Afghanistan do not pose a direct threat to the United States.”

. . . no matter how you feel about the occupation.

AS I HAVE POSTED MANY TIMES BEFORE.. from my journal..

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Geithner / Kissinger
Posted by flyarm in Political Videos
Mon Jan 11th 2010, 04:05 AM


Shortly after taking office..Obama asked Henry Kissinger..knick name.."The Butcher of Cambodia"..to represent his administration in Talks with Russia..

lets look as some serious connections here of Geithner , Kissinger and Obama...shall we..( edit to add: much of this i have posted many times in the past.)


TIMOTHY GEITHNER

Biography

Early life and education
Geithner was born in Brooklyn, New York.<2> He spent most of his childhood living outside the United States, including present-day Zimbabwe, Zambia, India and Thailand, where he completed high school at International School Bangkok.<3> He then attended Dartmouth College, graduating with a B.A. in government and Asian studies in 1983.<4> He earned an M.A. in international economics and East Asian studies from Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies in 1985.<4><5> He has studied Chinese<4> and Japanese.<6>

Geithner's paternal grandfather, Paul Herman Geithner (1902–1972), emigrated with his parents from the German town of Zeulenroda to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1908.<7> His father, Peter F. Geithner, is the director of the Asia program at the Ford Foundation in New York.

During the early 1980s, Peter Geithner oversaw the Ford Foundation's microfinance programs in Indonesia being developed by S. Ann Dunham-Soetoro, President Barack Obama's mother, and they met in person at least once.<8>

Timothy Geithner's mother, Deborah Moore Geithner, is a pianist and piano teacher in Larchmont, New York where his parents currently reside. Geithner's maternal grandfather, Charles F. Moore, was an adviser to President Dwight D. Eisenhower and served as a vice president of Ford Motor Company.

Early career

After completing his studies,

Geithner worked for Kissinger and Associates in Washington, D.C., for three years and then joined the International Affairs division of the U.S. Treasury Department in 1988.

He went on to serve as an attaché at the US Embassy in Tokyo. He was deputy assistant secretary for international monetary and financial policy (1995–1996), senior deputy assistant secretary for international affairs (1996-1997), assistant secretary for international affairs (1997–1998).<5>

He was Under Secretary of the Treasury for International Affairs (1998–2001) under Treasury Secretaries Robert Rubin and Lawrence Summers.<5> Summers was his mentor,<10><11> but other sources call him a Rubin protégé.<11><12><13>



In 2002 he left the Treasury to join the Council on Foreign Relations as a Senior Fellow in the International Economics department.<14> He was director of the Policy Development and Review Department (2001-2003) at the International Monetary Fund.<5>


In October 2003, he was named president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.<15> His salary in 2007 was $398,200.<16> Once at the New York Fed, he became Vice Chairman of the Federal Open Market Committee component. In 2006, he also became a member of the Washington-based financial advisory body, the Group of Thirty.<17>


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Timmy's dad :


Peter F. Geithner, is the director of the Asia program at the Ford Foundation in New York. During the early 1980s,

Peter Geithner oversaw the Ford Foundation's microfinance programs in Indonesia being developed by

S. Ann Dunham-Soetoro,

President Barack Obama's mother, and they met in person at least once



Geithner's maternal grandfather, Charles F. Moore, was an adviser to President Dwight D. Eisenhower and served as a vice president of Ford Motor Company.

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now this should alarm every true democrat on these boards!!!!!!!


and From an April post of mine here at DU: and please, don't believe me ...click the link..it was in the CFR publication!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Remarks by National Security Adviser Jones at 45th Munich Conference on Security Policy

Published February 8, 2009




Speaker: James L. Jones


U.S. National Security Adviser Jones ( edit to add: new advisor hired by Obama!!!!) gave these remarks at the 45th Munich Conference on Security Policy at the Hotel Bayerischer Hof on

February 8, 2009.





"Thank you for that wonderful tribute to Henry Kissinger yesterday. Congratulations. As the most recent National Security Advisor of the United States, I take my daily orders from Dr. Kissinger, filtered down through General Brent Scowcroft and Sandy Berger, who is also here. We have a chain of command in the National Security Council that exists today."




Source: http://www.cfr.org/publication/18515/remar ... ...

don't believe it?? make sure you look at the CFR link...........

Foreign policy you say?????? sure..Kissinger , Scowcroft, and Sandy Berger..wow what a fucking democrat wouldn't you say????????????????????????????

Well not any kind of a democrat I have ever known in my 58 year lifetime as a democrat!

Oh and don't forget after Obama did his little take down at the Republican convention..Pappy Bush made a little visit to the White House last week with Jebbie in tow!

All of this completely ignores the actual policy and initiatives behind the negotiations with the Russians, part of which the president has already received recognition for with the awarding of the Nobel Peace Prize for his non-proliferation efforts. Innuendo is only part of an argument. In this case, yours is obscuring a complex and worthy diplomatic initiative from this president. That's what we should be focused on, not the personality of just one individual the president relied on in that effort.

oh and Jones is over and above Hillary.......

now this should alarm every true democrat on these boards!!!!!!!


and From an April post of mine here at DU: and please, don't believe me ...click the link..it was in the CFR publication!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Remarks by National Security Adviser Jones at 45th Munich Conference on Security Policy

Published February 8, 2009




Speaker: James L. Jones


U.S. National Security Adviser Jones ( edit to add: new advisor hired by Obama!!!!) gave these remarks at the 45th Munich Conference on Security Policy at the Hotel Bayerischer Hof on

February 8, 2009.





"Thank you for that wonderful tribute to Henry Kissinger yesterday. Congratulations.

As the most recent National Security Advisor of the United States,.]
I take my daily orders from Dr. Kissinger,
filtered down through General Brent Scowcroft and Sandy Berger, who is also here. We have a chain of command in the National Security Council that exists today."




Source: http://www.cfr.org/publication/18515/remar ... ...


what kind of democrat sends Kissenger anywhere representing their administration..was there no Democrat that could have gone????????? choke choke..Carter?? Clinton??? just to name two off the top of my silly little democratic head....Obama picks one of the worst criminals in my lifetime..Nixon's man...the Butcher of Cambodia..and the fucker behind the murders in Chile..

wtf kind of democrat supports this shit???????? I say ..no democrat i have ever known!

He takes his 'orders' from the president who is in charge of whatever policy Jones is promoting. This was well-reported in February and I don't assume the president didn't also take notice of this statement. Are you asserting that the president is subordinate to Jones and Kissinger, or that they imagine he is?

at the Hotel Bayerischer Hof on

February 8, 2009.

as reported on the CFR publication..it did not say he was joking..it did not say it was in "FUN"..

What kind of fool or asshole would say this stuff on foreign soil at a Security Policy meeting with foreign nationals???????????? Representing a new President.

I saw it reported on French TV as i was in Paris at the time..it was not reported as a fucking joke! It was reported as stunning!

Please stop with the excuses..there are no excuses!

Again, it would be more constructive and relevant to discuss actual policy directed by the president and implemented by figures like Jones than dwelling on this remark he made a month into the administration.

Obama picked Jones..he asked Kissinger to represent his administration..and it was not taken lightly or in any type of humor internationally!
This was an International Security Policy meeting..the USA sets the stage for those meetings!
This was the new
U.S. National Security Adviser

I can tell you as a now retired flight crew of one of the 9/11 airlines NY based..i don't find any fucking humor in this!..not one fucking bit!

And wasn't it you and many like you that said Obama would be ready from day one?? Yeah..i seem to remember that quite well!

the International Security Policy meetings is a pretty damn giant stage ..the world watches and listens to every word ..especially a new set of policies by a new president!..and it gets reported in foreign nations //unlike by our fucking media! The world was watching and the world was listening..what is said is not taken lightly!

He sets the policy, not Jones.

as a 33 yr now retired airline flight crew..I would say ..internationally ..people are on a wait and see basis...and all is not so great..I have heard many mixed feelings, and alot of it is based on economy and blaming the USA, and Obama is front and center in that discussion.

Oh and I. have. been. in 5 European countries since Mid - Nov..

. . . those folks are all up in arms about Jones' statement about Kissinger? Go figure.

I shouldn't speak for anyone else (in any other country), but I do believe he's made a good presentation to the world and I can see that his administration is fully engaged in many areas of good and sound diplomacy, despite whatever disagreements I may have with aspects and consequences of the president's foreign policy.

That said, I think there may well be aspects of his policy with Russia that I disagree with. I don't agree with his missile defense posture against Iran, for instance, but I agree with his decision rejecting basing missiles in a ring around the former Soviet state.

To the point of the op, the U.S./Russian nuclear weapons initiative is one aspect of his foreign policy which is directed toward peace, not war as Ms. Thomas suggests.

never mind..that is spying Obama supports spying on AMERICANS!

as someone personally and intimately involved in these wars:

There has been alot of change - in the Commander In Chief's attitude. Bush never went to Arlington, Bush never honored caskets as they arrived at Dover AFB. President Obama has demonstrated to me that he is making these decisions with deliberation. This is not to please Daddy, this is not to make him feel macho. There are legit reasons to keep fighting in Afghanistan, although personally I dont beleive either of these wars are worth anymore lives right now. If I had my 'druthers, my troops would be out of Iraq by sundown today.

I just went to ANOTHER going away party for many of my soldiers I deployed with back in the day, to whom I directly owe my life. My happy life with my wife (also a soldier) our daughter, one on the way and my two dum-dum dogs in my 5 bedroom house huge yard across the street from a city park would not have happened if I had died over there. There is always a funeral undertone to these parties, I hope they all make it back - AGAIN - in one piece.

The differnce is this time I know the CIC is aware of these sacrifices. He has actually gone and faced family members visiting the graves in Arlington. No one can stand there at the ramp of the plane when they offload the coffins, and be defiant. It is crushingly overwhleming. This is why Bush never went. President Obama knows, acknowledges and is mindful of the sacrifices troops are making. Bush just wanted to be cool and "kick ass". President Obama wants to end these wars as soon as possible. But its not yet. How long does it take to clean up BUsh's mess?

SGT PASTO

he said he would do. He wanted a shift of forces to Afghanistan...what exactly is Helen Thomas suggesting here?

Obama never made any apologies about his hawk side, he wore that side up front. And he receives no credit for his efforts
for sending George Mitchell to Israel either I see, that is unfortunate.

I have been deeply disappointed in several areas with Obama, and I don't approve of the escalation of forces in Afghanistan, but
his decision came as no surprise when considering his previous campaign statements.

suggesting he spoke differently during the campaign, and he did not.

Her OP was poorly written imo.

Thank you dear lady for never having sold us out..not even once!

You Lady are the truest of all patriots!

when all she did was start whining about President Obama and not giving any facts.

helen thomas sounds like she's too lazy to do factual reporting.

:rofl:

She called him a coward..she sure as fuck called that in.

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/01/helen-thomas-hits-white-house-for-lack-of-transparency/

Apparently, she was asleep between 2001-2009.

Speaks volumes about you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x179292

she doesn't give two shits if there is an R or a D behind the name.

and you are not!

But we know you are the ultimate in credibility!:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :applause: :applause: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :applause: :applause: :rofl: :rofl:


THANK YOU HELEN FOR NEVER SELLING OUT THE TRUTH!

If it was wrong for Bush it is still just as wrong for Obama.
Helen is doing her job..just as she has always done her job and a damned good job she does for the American people too.
It is wrong to say "My president..right or wrong." Especially when so many people are dying.
The truth is...war IS being escalated and Obama IS a war president.
Face it...try to change it if it is wrong...but don't attack a decent person for doing their job the way they are supposed to be doing it.

I really do appreciate her honesty...

She's ...... she's ...... old. Yeah. She's old. :sarcasm:

The grim reality actually can't do very much more than what he is already doing to try to bring this shit to an end.

POLITE" exit from war...wow have some here at DU digressed ..now many sound like the Bush defenders..of old...pathetic if you ask me...and certainly not anything I would have thought I would have heard from democrats!..appalling, matter of fact..and making me sick to my stomach.

a few years back we sent her hundreds of flowers for speaking the truth..same war only escalated and a bigger defense budget..she speaks the truth now yet there are those who accept an illegal war and occupation because of the man in office..if bush had escalated afghanistan and increased the spending budget we would all be up in arms..now, we are divided..it was wrong then, it is wrong now..sad commentary

Bless her...she's been around and in the thick of it long enough to call bs when she sees it..

If a republican were in office right now there would be riots in streets.

Well said.

that's where it gets us. no critical thinking. just 'go team!' and 'go obama!'

there are as many blindly loyal dems as there are blindly loyal repubs. shame really.

or we have to find an anti-war party --

before we blow up the entire planet!!

As for me...


I always knew he wasn't as liberal as he claimed to be.


He voted "present" for a reason.... and it's not that difficult to talk against the war when you represent a liberal constituent.



Can anybody say "FISA vote"? I know who voted for it, and who voted against it.

She is a true patriot and American role model for what is right.

when this fine woman finally paaases on.

These people are all attention prostitutes.

Now we know why they were against Bush - they never had any principles, they were criticizing then just to get attention, too.

And when they know how to handle the mess President Obama inherited, maybe they can bother to get themselves elected to actually do something, rather than just throw stones?

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vicious vapid soundbyte like calling the President "a coward".

You just never know who's going to end up being a tool or who's going to evolve into someone with integrity.

He's drawing down in Iraq and focusing on Afganistan as well as hitting al quida where ever they are around the world. It beats the hell out of bush's retarded color coded charts.

'cause UIA definitely loves Helen Thomas.

which is "it's God's will" "if God Wills it...." no matter how bad it gets, what happens it is up to God..!! so we need to quit being Crusaders, they hate that, still hate that..big time.

they love the money of course, but we dont understand how they do things.. what we call Corruption is just how they do business.. its the same thing we do here..top down looting, bottom 80% possesses 7% of financial wealth* in America, that isnt because of curruption.??.. but they are simply open about it. we dont need to train them in advanced techniques of war and give them state of the art weapons to use on us or each other.

it is really sad, it is heart breaking...Tragic. but there is nothing we can do about it., that doesn't make it worse.

the Shit is on the way to the fan. when it hits it is rarely evenly distributed, so we need to get ready for that event.

Ossama's Mentor said that Ossama's plan to destroy the western culture was to suck us into a series of wars with Islamic countries that would bankrupt and destroy us. it's working and the job is almost done.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/01/10-3
"snip...Sheik Abdullah Azzam was the teacher and spiritual mentor of a young Saudi named Osama bin Laden.

Azzam was murdered in 1989, likely by a western intelligence service. His pupil, bin Laden, launched a seemingly Quixotic mission to overthrow the western-backed dictatorships and monarchies that misruled the Muslim world, and drive western power from the region.

Bin Laden proclaimed his grand strategy in the 1990s. He would oust the modern "crusaders" by luring the U.S. and its allies into a series of small, debilitating, hugely expensive wars to bleed and slowly bankrupt the U.S. economy, which he called America's Achilles' heel.

Bloody attacks would enrage the U.S. and lure it into one quagmire after another.

Presidents Bush and Obama fell right into bin Laden's trap.

Bin Laden's words haunt us as we witness hysteria engulf America's air travel system and hear calls to invade Yemen...snip"

_______________________________________________________________
let's take care of the Bull Shit here First..!!
* http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Americans have been praying for 100 years for an end to war --

while elites all over the world -- including in America -- have

sought to keep war and war profits going!!

And citizens divided over war issues!!

lot..but starting Jihad is a stretch.. that happened in about 622ad. please get some back ground on the subject.

very good book, the links here are based on Islamic historical records and their 3 holly books, these authors dont just make up stuff
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Infidels-Guide-Koran/dp/1596981040/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265771324&sr=8-1

she is a real scholar, and lived it 30 years, read this and get some specific validity in your argument, not just a statement.
http://www.amazon.com/Cruel-Usual-Punishment-Terrifying-Implications/dp/1595551611/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265771596&sr=8-1

this is absolutely the best book on Muhammad by a life long Muslim, now an Apostate..
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Muhammad-Ali-Sina/dp/0980994802/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265771748&sr=8-1

read the product description in the link..

I've read a dozen books on Islam, lived in an Islamic republic in the peace corps with the Moors in the Sahara Desert... I'm just beginning to get a good overview on Muhammadanism.

US created the VIOLENT Islamic writings and shipped them into ME --

Meanwhile, GOP gave start up funding to the Christian Coalition -- and Scaife and

other wealthy right wingers financed Dobson's organization and Bauer's organization.


Here's some info --

FIRST PART OF THIS DEALS WITH HOW US/CIA CREATED TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA . . .
TO BAIT RUSSIANS INTO AFGHANISTAN . . .!!!


SECOND PART DEALS WITH THE TEXTBOOKS --



The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i... ...


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SECOND PART --


The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.h...



No one is saying that organized patriarchal religion isn't violent in its own right historically -- just as the Vatican is -- but organized patriarchal religion is the
creation of patriarchy and a TOOL of patriarchy -- long used by them for co-option and
conquest of other people --

and still used by them --

Nixon financed right wing Fundamentalist Israelis which buried the peace-loving Israelis.
This gave us a foothold in ME which we have used mightily.


PS: Re your "overview" . . . while Americans have PRAYED for 100 years for peace in
the world, the elites were doing all they could to create war. THAT is what has to be
understood from the highest perspective.
All organized patriarchal religion is the same -- male-supremacist and violent.
And intended to be as a tool of patriarchy, as a landmine left behind in nations --
See India -- now India/Pakistan!

they put 80,000,000 to the sword in their invasions into India alone..
http://www.topix.net/forum/religion/islam/TQBFHTDDGV8CBQ6F9

you cant blame everything on us.. the talaban are a quick blip in the history of Muslim violence, and certainly not nearly the worst.

i agree with a lot of what you say. but, it seems to have been an attempt to contain them.. which failed. the EU today can vouch for that. Jihad is holy war to Global domination it wont end till all beings submit to allah. read the Koran

.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

And "up" is "down" . .. ??



Again -- PATRIARCHY invented organized patriarchal religion -- male supremacist religion --

It is a TOOL of patriarchy and should be understood that way, just as rape is a TOOL of war.

From the highest perspective . . .

PATRIARCHY, organized patriarchal religion, and capitalism -- all connected -- all intended

to do damage to ideals of democracy and economic democracy.

Again -- Right wing created Christian Coalition and other right wing religious organizations.

And US/CIA created Taliban/CIA --

and pushed VIOLENT concepts of Islam into the Middle East.


Whatever religious violence you can point to, it is preceded by patriarchal violence in

overthrowing and oppressing females --

Patriarchy and VIOLENCE are mirror-images of one another

that women arent raped wholesale in Sharia republics because if they Even say they were raped they will be charged with adultery an stoned to death.. ?? men know they cant even be charged..

are not women in islam considered congenitally ignorant and totally defective.. does not the Koran prescribe beating women..?

i know the answers.. i was just wondering if you did..

leave the rest of us out of that one... i will vouch for our creating the Talaban in our funded Egyptian Rendition torture chambers, but we had nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire's Jihadi Genocide of hundreds of millions.. Read the Koran, the world of peace exists within the boarders of an Islamic controlled country, the World of War is outside the boarders of any Islamic controlled country. there is a big debate about literal interpretation.. but they are going on what Muhammad said/did. do we debate the 10 commandments on how they should be interpreted in todays world..no, it's the word of God. why should they feel any different.

and the books were shipped into the Middle East for the clear purpose of

creating a VIOLENT Islam -- to introduce it and to encourage it -- and to frame

Islam as VIOLENT.

It is patriarchy and its organized male-supremacist religions which is VIOLENT --

From the beginning to the end, organized patriarchal religion is a TOOL used to create

war -- to move wealth -- to co-opt and conquer other nations.

From genocide vs the Native American -- to enslavement of African-Americans here, the

Papal role in Columbus' brutality, cruelty, genocide cannot be denied.

Every once in a while, tho, the patriarchs find it necessary to spur on that religious

violence!!

violence in ME --

Meanwhile, we are the terrorists -- as the UN has frequently made clear!!

the Bu$h Mafia Family and Saudi Royals Wahabiests.. do you know what Whabie is.?? that is Specifically the shit they spread.

what is with this "WE" bullshit.??

this isn't about YOU personally --

This is about the US government - the dark side of it -- and the CIA --

corruption of our "people's" government --

wanting to reinstate the Ottoman empire to complete world domination and imposing Sharia law.. and other things i cant say cause i'd be Tomb stoned read ali sina's book, you are lost in an Apriori loop, like the Oligarchy wants

and you think they were talking about YOU?

At least read about the Carter era creation of Taliban/Al Qaeda and US going into

Afghanistan 6 months before the Russians came in . . . "in order to bait the

Russians into Afghanistan . . . in hopes of giving them a Vietnam type experience."

Again -- we didn't write and ship books with VIOLENT passages into the ME in order

to bring peace to the area!!

Bye --

We will see in August which way the winds blow.

after all, they do come home and need jobs -- or, at least they used to come home!!

The unemployment rate is more like 17.5% if not much higher!

Those who have given up searching for jobs are also no longer included!!

Many others have taken part time positions and are technically underemployed!

Helen Thomas is no Obama sycophant and thank you Helen, because you are right. Where is the change? IMO Obama had a chance to be a hero to end the senseless slaughter of the innocent people that are being killed on a daily basis and sensless war that makes our country less safe and more bankrupt both morally and financially. He could have remade our image and created a new way forward a new doctrine but he didn't he chose the same path as Bush I can only believe that there must be some NEOCONS advising him because I always envisioned that Obama was a humanist, now I am left with buyers remorse.

When it comes to WAR the only difference I see between Bush and Obama is that one of them was awarded a nobel peace prize. How absolutely hypocritical and unworthy he was for accepting it. It was meant to send a message that the world would have had his back had he embarked on a a jouney of PEACE.

He really should give it back, I wonder how he rationalizes this with himself I find it discordant and paradoxical.

I'd say this is attention seeking behavior, as much as I love Helen.

The new DU moderating policies seem to be having some effect.

folks replying to the OP itself, which is a good one...

and the Democrats have been proving for three years now --

thru re-funding and escalations -- that they aren't it!!!

Too much profit in war -- imperialism, fascism, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Obama is so far the disappointment of the century. What a waste of a brilliant mind. Lacks the cojones though.

I love Helen Thomas. She was one of the few truth tellers during the Bush administration and continues to be a bright light during this administration.

I love Helen Thomas. She was one of the few truth tellers during the Bush administration and continues to be a bright light during this administration.