You know, the more I read Leviticus, the more I realize that God knew his audience

Check this out, and pay particular attention to verses 18:6 through 18:19. WTF? I mean, really, it's like He anticipated the GOP mindset exactly! Gotta give Him credit there:

18:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.

18:3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.

18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

18: 7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

18: 9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

18:10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.

18:11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.

18:13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.

18:14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

18:15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.

18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;

18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

Except for the shrimp of course. Pure speciesism.

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

Sewage contaminated such bottom feeders as shell fish and crustaceans.

Much of Leviticus is about health rules in an ancient culture and were likely based upon some understanding or misunderstanding of health. They may not have understood germs, but they understood correlations.

was aimed at a nomadic desert people that wanted to increase it's numbers to survive - so no seed spilling.

ever notice how we girls who uncover one anothers nakedness aren't mentioned.

I agree that the rules were mainly about having an orderly society that produced plentiful offspring between people who were not too close genetically.

All these fundies who rail about homosexuality being an "abomination" forget that Leviticus also considers it an abomination to allow a woman who is menstruating to live with the rest of the family during that time. And if she's eating shrimp, double abomination. Shrimp with bacon wrapped around it and deep fried - triple abomination.

The next time you see any fundie eating pork or shell fish, yell "it's an abomination!"

"... jeeze, I hadn't even *thought* of that until I read it there..."

God is a dirty ol' man.

Just look at the Song of Solomon.

Jonathan, son of Saul, as "more beautiful than any woman." I always get a chuckle out of that one. It's in one of the Psalms, I believe.

Can I uncover THAT?

I really think Leviticus dropped the ball on that one. Really--what kind of shoddy List of Abominations IS this, anyway?

I would have thought that'd be an obvious one, but I guess it's ok.

I'd think one would be much more tempted by one's cousin than by one's aunt/uncle!

In most parts of the world, and in over half the states in the US, first cousins may freely marry. In every state in the US, those marriages are recognized as valid, even by states that forbid them. That fact is one argument that can be taken to the SCOTUS regarding another type of marriage allowed in some states. And it should be.

Just how much of a problem was this back then?

I mean, since nakedness was such an obsession and all....

And did he mean, like, your neighbor's donkey or did he mean like, your neighbor's ASS, like, behind?

Gotta wonder about these things.

What if you covet your neighbor's neighbor? Is that OK? Or is that covered by the "nor any thing that is thy neighbor's" clause?

Because I am my neighbor's neighbor, am I not allowed to covet myself?

I'm surprised I'm still alive

God doesn't lie you know.

If your father's brother's wife is your aunt... :wtf:

The goal was to stop people from having children with relatives.

Moses certainly knew of the inbreeding among the Egyptian royals, and the horrific results of such inbreeding. These rules were designed to avoid that, as well as to help establish social order.

Of course, saying GOD mandated it is as old as civilization.

It refers to a mother's sister as a "kinswoman" but calls a father's brother's wife an "aunt". This suggests that its okay for a father's brother (uncle) to be married his own sister (aunt) but if you look at her nakedness its a sin.

Of course this contradicts 18: 9.

The mother's sister is a kinswoman because they are blood related.
The wife of the uncle would be an aunt by marriage so she's not a kinswoman.


All that nakedness gets confusing lol.

The point is to stop people from having sex with relatives, for genetic and social structure reasons.

I find it odd that homosexuality is called abomination but bestiality is merely called confusion. I'd switch it around. I can believe that someone might have a gay sex experience in college because they're a little confused about their sexuality. Nothing wrong with that. But sex with an animal? That's just sick. Levi had his priorities all backward.

It sounds so benign, like a mistake, like you "confused" that horse for your boyfriend!

Or maybe it means the animal would be confused. Which, granted, they probably are.

Just so weird. God is one weird Dude.

didn't we just have sex in that field?
Husband: No...I think that was a beast.
Woman: Oh, sorry dear, I get so confused. No wonder you seemed bigger.

After days of tending sheep alone, those female sheep look mighty sexy.

If they wrote back then that people that had sex with sheep (and other herded animals) were to be put to death, it would be kind of tough to get followers of that religion wouldn't it?

I'm worried...

It's rather a gross oversight, if I may venture an opinion, and not what you'd expect from a deity so concerned with "thou shalt not", and the abomination of wickedness, and so on.

well, unless you're a Republican and then all exceptions apply.

...people whose very favorite reading matter was lists of ALL SORTS of people whose nakedness they shouldn't be uncovering. Who came back to those lists again and again. Just to make sure they'd got it all, uh-huh. *nods*

Don't even get me started on the chapter with the "begats."

"Oh yeah! My father's sister! Jeeze, I almost missed one!"

And not only that, but when you combine these lists with other passages that say that just *thinking* about committing the sin is the exact same as doing it, well, you gotta question God's motive in putting that list there.

God makes a big deal about saying how we dare not tempt God, but He's got little to say about how he tempts man. Interesting isn't it?

I can picture John Cleese as Moses reading off those one by one, with the crowd growing smaller and smaller after each new rule.

I was raised fairly ignorant of the Bible, but as a little girl (aged 6 to 8), my teenaged sister dragged me to a few Christian Youth Group Meetings. I had only been to church a few times before that, and I didn't like it.

I still think Jesus sounds like he was an amazing, great, inspirational man (if he ever existed).

And, frankly, they do require a lot of work.

Didn't sound like he was all that councerned about whose nakedness gay guys were uncovering.

They were a little confused back then

They read 'do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge'....

and put the book down.... and have been starving for centuries.

Instead of saying "these are good ideas for our society," Moses said "GOD says you must not do these things."

Those who today use Leviticus to attack homosexuality fail to note that the same book of rules finds eating shrimp or pork an abomination.

You know how often you find a fundie Christian who feels as strongly about not eating shrimp as they do about homosexuality? Never.

don't forget the shellfish which I took to mean oysters and mussels and such or the instructions on how to sacrifice animals and make burnt offerings to please God. Maybe the fundies would consider the sacrifices to be kind of a fuzzy luau without the roast pigs. Sorry, for those of tender heart and stomach, but I am so sick of seeing religious fanatics use Leviticus as the be all and end all offense against gays and completley misrepresenting what it really is. Prohibitions against certain foods which were probably tainted in the days before refrigeration and basic health laws. Most of what OP transcribed is a prohibition against what was considered incest and adultery in those times. It was not a ringing condemnation of gays.

Oh, and if you want biblical hot sex try the Song of Solomon. There was a guy who liked a good time.;)

Pssst!

They were cooking and eating the meat.

The priests were in charge of properly slaughtering, butchering and cooking the meat, which was eaten in most instances. Many of the Leviticus codes were based upon then existing sanitary and health conditions, or their perceptions of such. By having codes which the priests enforced, the tribe was able to better control illness and disease.

It's pretty clear that someone with knowledge of Egypt's medical and health libraries (Moses) used his knowledge to impose upon a previously fairly undeveloped tribe (the Hebrew) and brought them to heel by claiming GOD wanted it that way. The rest is history based mythology.

The next time some fundie talks about Leviticus, ask him if he requires his wife to remove herself from the home during her period each month, as Leviticus requires. Ask him if he quarantines anyone in his family with an infection, as Leviticus requires.

The simple truth is these fundie people ignore Leviticus except for the one prohibition against homosexuality, which, if viewed in context, is simply one of many actions that were then considered moral infractions.

I have argued Leviticus endlessly with fundies who seem to disregard everything but that one tiny part that drives their agenda. To everything else I got talking points or flat out called a liar. They would immediately keep jumping back to the prohibition on same gender sex as if that was all that was in the book.

It has been years since I have read a Bible cover to cover as if it were the absolute word of God. I do not remember anything but Leviticus that specifically prohibits same gender sex. I may be wrong, I frequently am, but this is all so lame and such a flimsy excuse to act out hatred and revulsion of your own making on a whole group of people who live differently than you do. They hate me because I have a disability. God's punishment for something, you know. My response to that is, shit happens. I doubt that God would have so little to do that he would sit down and plan disabilities and suffering for everyone on earth who might have done something to offend that they are not even aware of.

My Grandfather said it well. "There is no Hell. We make our own Hell out of our lives while we are living them."

It is nice to know that the priests got a good steak dinner or a lamb chop every now and then. If you are monitoring everyone else's morality you must get pretty darn tired.;)

18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.

18:3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.


I'm not Jewish, so it doesn't apply to me.

Yahoooo:party:

Forget that you ever heard any fundie talk about this book. Imagine it was just discovered in some scrolls and was about an emerging nomadic tribe in northern Egypt circa 1300 BCE.

What would you do? You would try to understand the context of this tribe in those times. Someone was leading the tribe. They wanted the tribe to follow certain social and health rules, and designed the rules to best do that in those times.

That's why people who are bleeding or infected were required to be quarantined.

That's why they prohibited eating bottom feeding fish and crustaceans, or pigs.

That's why they required standards for butchering animals.

That's why they prohibited eating what we would call "road kill."

That's why they prohibited breeding with close relatives.

Leviticus must be viewed as something written 3000 years ago for a tribe that was evolving in social order and theology, and this was their set of laws for conduct. They claimed God said it because that's what people do when they want you think you don't have a choice.

How many times did they cram the word "nakedness" in there? What are these people so afraid of?

It's amazing how much damage obsessive belief in the Bible has done over the centuries, to individuals, to empires, to the planet itself.

Do we know what the Koran says about matters like these, just for comparison?

was written for the priests -- not the average person.

Deuteronomy applied to everyone.

Finally, it only applied to Jews, everyone else only had 7 laws of Noah to follow.

:shrug:

You think an invisible Sky Deity descended to Earth to speak with someone 2,000 years ago?

Hoooookay.

It's amazing to me that people take this silly book seriously.

for those that do. When you start by objecting to their source of authority, you have already lost them (not saying you ever have a chance, but you may as well have logic and reason on your side in case there are spectators sitting on the fence).

But to use the phrase about fighting fire with fire... when you use their own authoritative source to point out their hypocrisy, the thinking ones just might sit up and take notice.

Of course, you can't really apply the laws to modern life without the centuries of interpretation and argument, and *really* not via an English translation.

Tucker

Help!! :shrug: