Is there a point in pregnancy when you become uncomfortable with abortion?

I am not talking about legality. Like the vast majority here, I support Roe v. Wade and the way it is enforced.

But it is one thing to say it should be legal, and another to be nonchalant and comfortable with it.

I will also add the caveat of whether you feel differently about it in your own case as opposed to for other people since it's possible to want to give others a choice that you wouldn't choose for yourself.

Where someone other than the pregnant woman and her doctor think they have a say in the matter.

Sid

...get out of my brain! :)

it depends on the specifics of the case.

There are so many factors.

Personally, I would probably not have an abortion, but I cannot say it would never happen (well, now my tubes are tied, so it won't ever be an issue again). There are so many things that can go wrong.

If someone else needs an abortion, then they have their reasons and it is not my decision to make.

That said, I do think that abortion is a sad thing. It isn't the ideal situation, the ideal is that every pregnancy be wanted and welcomed. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world.

hysterectomies,tubal ligations? vasectomies? ?Is anyone nochalant and comfortable with ANY surgery? The question always has been as to why this procedure is discussed differently and why anyone thinks others ought to have an "opinion" on what is a personal matter.

I have never needed the opinion of anyone but my doctor on any procedure.

those are very different questions from saying whether they should be legal.

But judging from your reply, you should pick the option.

Is there a point in the pregnancy when it isn't like a tubal ligation for you, when you would hesitate beyond worrying about the health risks to yourself?

but wanted it to remain legal.

That is roughly my opinion, but I wonder how many other people feel that way.

Also I have known people who had abortions and had a variety of reactions.

One friend didn't have an abortion and gave the baby up for adoption, and when I said something meant to be comforting more than a political statement like ''that was brave of you to do'' or something like that, she said she wished she just got the abortion because it was too painful to see the kid than give it up.

And I knew a woman in college who had a kid that was a product of rape when I and nearly no one else would have begrudged her getting an abortion.

and I have had more direct experience in relationships too with a variety of reactions myself.

What is odd is whenever I say anything remotely nuanced about abortion, someone says ''don't talk about it!'' instead of having a reasonable discussion or simply ignoring the thread.

isn't under constant threat enough, even when we have a supposedly Democratic president, polls like this that give equal weight to abortion "comfort" levels aren't perceived as not-so-subtle anti-abortion propaganda?

Abortion is a medical procedure - to assign "comfort" levels to having one or someone else having one for whatever reason is an attempt to turn a medical procedure into a moral dilemma. The more you stigmatize abortion that way, the more the perception grows that merely "personally opposing" it isn't enough.

attention.

are you familiar with the "personhood" amendment efforts in at least 15 states?

are you familiar with the latest insanity in utah about making miscarriages illegal?

are you at all familiar with the ongoing efforts of the woman-hating, pro-forced birthers in all their myriad forms, who are doing everything in their power to find ways to circumvent roe?

sadly, your comment indicates that you are not.

by the way, that bit about being "nonchalant" was something straight out of reichwing talking points, or is that also something with which you are not familiar?

It really doesn't matter what my comfort level is or isn't. It isn't any of my business, period. And this goes for late term abortion because AFAIK these are often heartbreaking circumstances and it is wrong for someone to volunteer their "comfort" level with them. Better to leave it with the woman and her doctor and make sure that procedures are legal and safe.

The only comfort level that applies is to whatever the pregnant woman decides it is. I assume that women are moral agents and make these decisions for themselves without my, or anybody else's "input."

guys legal say in whether a woman aborts a kid they made together, as a matter of courtesy if not morality, shouldn't he have a right to voice an opinion?

What difference does it make whether I think he has a "right to voice an opinion." I don't understand your use of the word "should." It implies there is an "authority" that compels that some communication be made. How do you propose "we" do that, if not by an orwellian legal say in the matter of an abortion? That was, btw, dealt with in a Supreme Court decision already and the answer is "no, we can't."

It is a private matter between the couple. The state cannot force married couples to talk with each other. Would we want it to?

If this is not what you had in mind, then please elaborate on your point a bit more...

as if it's the final word. As a pragmatic and legal thing, of course we can't require women to consult with their significant other.

As a moral and ethical issue, how would you treat your significant other if you are a woman or want to be treated if you are a man?

As a general rule, I don't like divorce, smoking, gambling, or a lot of other things, but I don't want them outlawed.

Altho an unwanted pregnancy is not in question for me and my husband at our age, I would have been open with him if that had happened. He is prochoice. He would leave it to me. I wouldn't marry a man who was not prochoice, so I feel I can discuss these things.

But I can't speak for every woman and her marital relationship, though. What we might think is a no-brainer for ourselves, may be a real problem for some women. That is called a "crisis pregnancy" precisely because there are barriers to communication (fear that her mate might become abusive upon finding out she was pregnant, for instance). For many of these women, these are "wise fears." If he didn't know and she ended the pregnancy, did she do the right thing? I'd say yes. If he wasn't abusive but she thought he'd be upset over the idea of an abortion, she might not want to tell him. Obviously, if a woman has decided that she simply cannot continue the pregnancy for whatever physical or emotional reason, then she's doing the right thing IMO by not telling him, in order to preserve the marriage. That hasn't been my situation but it CAN happen. A woman in that situation has to consider several factors that may not occur to you and me, but are nonetheless real to that particular woman. So these are not, as you put it, "black and white statements." Lots of gray in there...

your choice of words indicates that, regardless of how you would like us to believe otherwise, you are, at heart, an anti-choicer.

unless the male is willing and able to carry the fetus himself, he has no say in the matter. your question implies that his view should be able to override the woman's. on what ground do you propose he be able to do that? you realize, of course, that this view renders the woman nothing more than a brood mare.

As someone who went to college in the late 60s and early 70s, when it was illegal, I firmly believe that it has to be legal. I would bet that had the poll asked whether Roe vs Wade should remain or not, there would be few or no votes on the other side.

Here, on a board that is populated mostly by the left of the Democratic party, this poll shows that a significant % of people here do see a moral dilemma. I think John Kerry spoke eloquently in the second debate on this.

Abortion is a woman's decision and they are the ones that have to live with the decision - whichever way they decide.

(Here what surprises me is the 5% and 5% that picked the up to birth alternative - although I hope they mean up to viability outside the womb.)

Roe v. Wade, and I didn't think it was the most interesting question to ask about abortion since I would expect nearly everyone here including myself to vote for Roe v. Wade.

attracted my attention. I actuaslly understand why you would ask but it is a very slippery slope and one we do NOT need to go down.The very fact that the question is asked puts women in a class of lesser importance regarding healthcare.No such questions about the comfort of procdures pertaining to men are ever asked.There has never even been a piece of legislation proposed that requires men get the permission of their wives befolre getting a vasectomy.You do not ask for instance how "comfortable' a women would be with her husbands vasectomy early in a marriage.

That we have to discuss our personal feelings with someone who has an agenda they won't explain. I will answer a poll on abortion by saying I am pro choice, period. The rest is for you to interpret. Also, if people have enough courtesy to respond to your polls and your posts despite the misgivings they may have, it is not very wise or civil of you to insult them for doing so as you have in the post I am responding to.

Because we post on a discussion board doesn't mean that we owe you any part of our personal lives, feelings or opinions. We don't even owe you an answer to a generic question if we don't feel like giving it. Discussions are give and take and usually involve trying to increase understanding or coming to a point where you can agree to disagree. This isn't doing that.

If you want answers to the questions you are asking you need to explain why you are asking in a non demeaning, courteous way. People do not like to be used. If you are promoting an agenda without telling us then you are trying to use us. As the late, unlamented Joe McCarthy used to say, "If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck .." I'm sure you know the rest. Maybe you would be better off running your games on stupid people. Most of us are not stupid. We don't play well with people who run with scissors.

I actually could care less about either.Teens can't engage in gambling only because they can't be responsible for their own debts. It isn't my business to worry about someone else's( who isn't a family or close friend) medical procedure.I am not a doctor. This is a privacy issue. Would you have me ask for permission or the opinion of strangers on a hysterectomy? Should a male be open for debate on a Penile implant? All are reproductive health related and no ones business.

People don't argue about tubal ligations or vasectomies ad nauseum. Do you know why?

However, YOU are not all of us. I never argue about this with anyone I know on a face to face basis. "Do you know why?"

My daughter had to have a hysterectomy last week. The decision was between her and her doc (with a little advise from mom). We didn't poll for an opinion on rather or not to do a less radical surgery. What some one else is comfortable with has nothing to do with it.

And suspect that I personally would have a problem with it after the age of biological viability (roughly 5-6 months) except in cases where there is serious risk to life or health of the mother.

But I'll fight for the right to have one as long as need be... I can't make that decision for another woman just because I couldn't do it myself.

The only thing I find more horrible than abortion, is starving children. Most abortions are obtained by poor women... I've never been that poor while pregnant, so I don't know what that's like, but I can tell you I'd rather see an abortion take place than a life of starvation and pain due to poverty.

I'm not finding a good choice in your poll.

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/patients-remember-dr-tiller/

Over on Awarenessblog.com an anonymous commenter writes:

I don’t believe in aborting a fetus based on a person just not wanting that baby. I’m a Republican, Christian, mother, sister, and daughter. I was dealt a set of cards back in 1998 that were extremely hard. I had a much wanted baby growing inside of me. I found out around 28 weeks that the baby that I adored, wanted, loved and would die for had a condition and sickness that would if she was born died at birth or lived a very complicated life. Who would want that for their child??? I will never forget my baby…the one that was wanted, the one that was loved…NEVER…but I believe I did the right thing and the doctors believe I did the right thing and Dr. Tiller was there to do that thing…that decision…that hard hard decision.

They are gathering at the website A Heartbreaking Choice, in a section called simply “Kansas Stories.” And on the guest book on the Wichita Eagle website, where testimony and thanks are sprinkled among the thousands of condolence messages. Story upon story of the moment when a lava-lamp like image on an ultrasound screen turned joy into pain. Some anonymous, some with names, all of them grateful. Two, on the Wichita Eagle site, have stayed with me over the past few days:

To the Tiller family;
When I was 6, my mom was pregnant with a child she really wanted. The doctors told her, abut 4 or 5 months in, that if she carried the child to term, she had a 90 percent chance of not surviving. She of course, got an abortion, and I got my mom for an extra 14 years. Mom died when I was 20, and I have such gratitude for doctors like your husband who gave me my mom for those 14 extra, precious years. My heart goes out to you. May you find healing and may his memory live on in those that he loved and those that he saved.

And:

In 2002 I found out I was carrying triplets. My husband did not want me to have them. The day of my appointment I was scared and not sure this was the right decision. They took me back and did an ultrasound. I asked if they all had heartbeats and the nurse said yes. I asked if I would have the chance to talk to the doctor and right away she went and got Dr Tiller. He came in and looked at my babies on the screen. Then he looked at me and said “God gave you these babies, it’s not my job to take them away.” He asked if I agreed and I immediately said yes. He told the nurse to take me to the counter and have them give me my money. You know that day was a turning point for me. I ended up having a great pregnancy and three healthy baby girls. I can never thank Dr. Tiller enough for sending me away that day.

your last line is how I feel about this, but some people like things black and white, and the blacker and whiter the better.

a baby with no limbs, blind, deaf, and a vacant space where a brain should be? What about a dead 6 month old burned and with every bone in its body broken by violence? What about a child that is sold into sexual slavery? I personally find what some people do with the children they have to be a thousand, million times more horrible than abortion!

I pray 365 days a year for safe and legal abortions.

What exactly are you trying to convince me of?

I've known babies without brains, and I've felt horribly that their mother didn't have an abortion and save the entire family pain and agony... but she had the babies... yes, babies, plural, three in all... one after the other, barely a year apart, after knowing full well there was a genetic problem with her babies she just kept on having them... so she could get the welfare. Disgusting, isn't it? I'm ashamed to say she is related to me... a cousin I don't seek company with because there is enough cruelty in the world without inviting it into your life.

I also know a precious young man whose mother tried to abort on her own... all that happened to him, luckily, was a broken leg. Now, you tell me how hard a mother's stomach must be punched to break a baby's leg in uteri! That young man is now receiving honors in his high school, including an academic letter... it was a long hard haul, multiple surgeries to fix the leg that was broken, and had healed before he was born... problem is, the top of his foot was flat against his shin bone. He's going to graduate HS this June, and is planing a long and successful continued education. I'm thrilled that his mother didn't finish the job.

This is not a black and white situation, this abortion issue, not by a long shot.

And leave the decisions up to the mother who may/may not need one. It's NOT your business!

:applause:

Yet, I'm sure you have an opinion on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, correct?

That's what I've been told about abortion. Because I lack the body parts, I cannot espouse a position.

Because, well, it just is! One can have a valid opinion about war even if there is no chance of that person ever being involved in the war, but one cannot have a valid opinion on abortion if there is no chance that that person will ever be pregnant.

Makes perfect sense to me. I'm surprised you don't get it.

:shrug:

I've been told it has to do with my gonads.

But it should be safe, affordable or free for any woman. Her body, her choice.

Doctors don't DO third-trimester abortions unless there's a reason for it. It's none of my business what that reason is. If the woman and her doctor feel that her reason is good enough to do the procedure, that's good enough for me.

I once took care of someone in her 24th week who sustained a severe fall and needed repair of multiple fractures and internal bleeding. In order to do this, they had to remove the fetus. It was the closest call you can imagine whether or not it would have survived, but both would have died had they not done so. As it was, both survived.

Uncomfortable? You bet. This was a very much wanted pregnancy by two people who were looking forward to their first child. It was a horrible, tragic situation.

Had she been just a week or two earlier in gestation, the outcome would have been very different. It would have been a late term abortion. The level of discomfort would have been the same. So would the need.

At some point people need to trust each other to do the right thing, and by this I mean patients and their doctors. Sure, a very few will be selfish and stupid, but keeping full access open for tragic cases like the above should be paramount.

I find this poll a little disturbing and very insulting.

few people would have moral qualms about that situation, and thankfully, the way Roe v. Wade is implemented, there are few to no late term abortions unless their is a medical need.

I was wondering how many people see it as no more morally ambiguous than getting pedicure or an appendectomy, and the results of the poll show people's feelings are all over the map, even though most here support Roe v. Wade.

I also don't think it helps the pro-choice cause to pretend it is simply a medical procedure without other moral dimensions about when the fetus becomes a life worthy of protection. Frankly, I support Roe v. Wade in spite of it's most vocal advocates not because of them.

and that's exactly why this thread is so insulting to women and their doctors.

Compare it to gallbladder surgery: both carry risks, are painful, and save lives. While men discount the risk any pregnant woman who carries to term faces to her health, finances, social support system and LIFE, those risks are not negligible.

You are still innflicting you views on others. Personally, I might never get an abortion.thanfully i was never ikn that position but I have absolutely no right to be "uncomfortable" with another womens decision or any of her reasons for it. I have a woman friend who is also a doctor,She has often stated that if it were a choice between her career and an abortion, she would abort and that fetus and living women are not "equal" She said she knows what she contributes to society.The fetus is unknown and she would always support the known beings decision over that of the unborn. Whatever.

it is intersting that you never insert those 'moral deminsions " in anything to do with male reproduction."
And BTW, ALL surgery is life threatening and not all abortions are elective.

Yes, I'm uncomfortable with abortion after the second trimester. Maybe even after the first trimester, if I'm being really honest with myself.

But that's an emotional response on my part, a remnant of my religious upbringing. Those feelings don't matter one bit. I support a woman's right to choose, no matter what, no questions asked. Most late abortions are done for health reasons anyway.

does not mean I think I have the right to inject my opinion into someone's medical decisions. My uncomfortableness is, admittedly, based on irrational emotion, rather than reason. Since it is none of my business why anyone chooses to have an abortion, I should have no basis on which to judge, if I were so inclined.

Just because some of us may be uncomfortable, is not enough reason to limit anyone's medical choices. I fully support the right of others to choose. I fully support the right to privacy which anti-choicers try so hard to violate.

I've got to remember to send in my annual donation to Planned Parenthood.

:)

though you may note that responses are all over the board.

based on ignorance breeding more ignorance, reinforcing the notion some people have that they have a right to say what other people should do.

In reproductive health and privacy and on a progressive discussion board, that notion is uninformed and irrelevant.

"Men" is so much more concise, and equally descriptive.

You seem to be making a lot of judgments in this thread. No, thanks, very much.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.democraticunderground.com+%22arugula+latte%22+penis&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS228HK230&ie=UTF-8&hl=en

Some people are just very interested in penises. And I say that completely non-judgmentally.

I guess these people are trying to establish their DU pro-choice credentials, but please, you don't have to pretend to be "comfortable with all abortions up to birth" to avoid being accused of being an anti-choice freeper troll.

An early abortion is removing a clump of cells from a woman's body. No moral issues at all. A late abortion, after the point of fetal viability, is ending the life of a human being. A big difference. Now I am pro-choice. This means that I am entirely comfortable with all early abortions, whatever the reason. I also understand that there may be a very good reason for a late abortion, and I fully support late abortions in these circumstances. For example, if the baby will have a deformity, disability or chronic illness that will prevent it from living a normal life. In this case no life may well be a better alternative to a horrible life and I fully support a woman's choice in making this decision. But supporting such a difficult decision is not the same as being "comfortable" with it.

unless there is something seriously wrong with the fetus... i am comfortable that the woman will make the right decision.

:grr:

jesus h christ on a fucking pogo stick, how many times does this have to be explained?

:nuke:

I too am comfortable that the vast majority of later term abortions are for a very good reason. But the OP's phrase was "comfortable with abortion". Even if I am comfortable that the woman is making the right decision that does not mean that I am comfortable with the abortion itself.

Really?

to make decisions about their own bodies.

do tell!

All others STFU!

There tend to be many people (and even men) who are not Doctors or Medical Ethicists weighing in with their views.

BTW, men are affected by the legality of abortion as well. They are the other sides of partners in families that should have all available options for their mutual interest. That being said it is, ultimately, the choice of the woman.

All other busy bodies and their 'concerns' should just keep it to themselves. The reproductive rights, including those granted under Roe, are not fucking negotiable.

It would likely never be an option for me, but this is my body so that is my prerogative. However, I am uncomfortable with people being ok with abortion up to birth. That just blows my mind. But, again, not my body. But I would never ever be ok with that.

No matter who she is.

ROSITA

In January 2003, news spreads throughout Central and South America that a 9-year-old Nicaraguan girl has become pregnant as the result of a rape. Rosa, or Rosita as the girl becomes known in the press, is the only child of illiterate campesinos working in Costa Rica as coffee pickers at the time of the assault. Fearing for their daughter's life and mental health, Rosa's parents are determined to obtain an abortion for their child.

http://attiegoldwater.com/rositathemovie/doc.htm

Watch here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDDGr9h00nU

Yes, I am.

I'm comfortable with each woman who is pregnant making her own decisions regarding her pregnancy. That's what I'm comfortable with.

is merely expressing an opinion a form of coercion?

We discussed whether to have children long ago. We decided not to.

N.B.: When you want a possessive form of "you," please use "your." "You're" means "You are." As my wife will be happy to tell you, I am not her.

As for my girlfriend, she's a young movie actress, and quite unavailable for impregnation. My wife thinks it's amusing.

I'm a man and I *will* discuss abortion here. Live with it. If you don't want to see polls on abortion posted by men, or men discussing abortion, simply don't go to DU. See how simple it is?

Feel free to establish your own internet discussion board where men are banned from discussing abortion.

internet forum is. You see, I can post my misgivings about something quite freely here. And I will. As a man, myself, I feel quite secure in my ability to write what I think. You may not tell me to leave. Of that I'm quite certain.

Just bear in mind that when you decide to click on threads about abortion you may be discomfited by men posting polls and participating in the discussion.

petrified to think that you were going to somehow stop me from posting in threads. Thank goodness you have relented and will now allow me to stay.

Feh!

You said that the OP made you feel uncomfortable. I was simply suggesting that your discomfort could be eased by avoiding DU (where men are allowed to discuss abortion). But if you can live with the uncomfortable feelings, keep posting! :)

perpetuating ignorance and extremely harmful attitudes and misconceptions about a very important topic.

On a progressive discussion board, those harmful attitudes and misconceptions are damaging, disruptive and out of place. They should be corrected, not encouraged.

Who the hell are these people to think they can tell us not to opine about an issue? This is a discussion board!

Before that, it's the woman's business. After viability, then and only then, is when I think interference by the state should be tolerated.

think someone you don't know should have an abortion. I am very uncomfortable with me having any say. Each woman needs the freedom to be able to make that decision without your, my, or the state's intervention.

Once the fetus reaches the point it can survive outside the woman's uterus, then as far as I'm concerned it can be considered a person that has rights, and the state can protect those rights.

when it would kill her? You think she should run it by you first? Who the fuck are you? Are you saying that a woman is incapable of deciding between herself or her fetus without your input?

To bad it makes you uncomfortable, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!

And my opinion is worth just as much as anyone else. And notice I said "may", not must. If a state does not wish to impose regulations on third trimester abortions then that is fine with me.

:shrug:

we were "fortunate" that after our family doctor completely blew the diagnosis and her ob/gyn stuck her in the hospital to find out just what the hell was going on, test showed our son to be developed enough that a c-section was possible. My son has grown up and i love him dearly. If, it turned out that he was not developed enough i would have voted to abort with NO feeling of guilt ever.
My wife lived for 2 1/2 years after diagnosis.
So in terms of been there done that, I pretty much have.

The anti's make me want to puke.
If abortion becomes illegal and has to go underground, i will support the underground.
If it means i spend the rest of my life in prison??
so be it.

I had a young son and had been taking Methotrexate which is designed to interfere with the growth of certain cells of the body, especially cells that reproduce quickly, such as cancer cells, bone marrow cells, and skin cells. Bet you can guess what it would have done to a developing fetus.

No murder and no regret.

The OP seemed to be directed at people who are "in pregnancy" but no, it's another pointless exercise to pander to those so misinformed, they think that their opinion matters about this, FOR OTHERS.

It complete undermines the facts and experience and legalities of abortion, in a petty playground of pointless projections.

And then the CAVEAT!!

"I will also add the caveat of whether you feel differently about it in your own case as opposed to for other people since it's possible to want to give others a choice that you wouldn't choose for yourself."

This intense level of willful ignorance only serves to breed more of the same.

The whole point of the reproductive health and privacy rights of abortion is that safe and legal for everyone means "it's possible to want to give others a choice that you wouldn't choose for yourself."

Despite the RW talking points there is no doctor I know of in this country who would perform a late term abortion except in the case of massive birth defects or danger to the life or health of the mother. As the poll is written it would suggest that late term abortion could be done as a casual choice on the part of the mother and, in practice, this just does not happen.

I thought it was a fetus, not a baby. The talking point of those in favor of late term abortions is that it's not a baby and it's not a life until it is completely outside of the womb and the umbilical cord has been cut.

A Freudian slip, perhaps?

I mean, I am uncomfortable with abortion after the 1st trimester.

Unless it was for health reasons. I have known too many women who needed an abortion to save their lives. And while I may not like the idea of a fetus being aborted, i can't demand that someone else bear the costs of my morality.

Ultimately it has to be the woman's choice because she bears the consequences of any action she takes.

So I'm uncomfortable with abortion but there are lots of other things I am even more uncomfortable with.

with abortion (no matter the time of prenancy) but no one should interfere in any way with another persons right to choose for themselves... I have had 2 abortions, have 5 children whom I love endlessly, and I respect every single person to make decisions for themselves at any point in pregnancy.

I have 4 children, but I have also had two miscarriages. Intellectually I know that what I lost was just a clump of cells that were probably not even visible to the naked eye. However, emotionally I lost beautiful, perfectly formed, chubby, rosy cheeked babies. I was disappointed and heartbroken and even those feelings have diminished, they remain to this day after nearly 40 years.

As much as I respect and support a woman's right to choose, it's hard for me to separate my feelings about abortion from the sadness I felt about my miscarriages.

the question has always been:

at what point does a fertilized egg stop being a collection of cells and become a human being?

can anyone definitively answer that question?

... and women and their midwives dealt with it accordingly if they wanted to "bring on the menses" -- since the 1400s suitable herbs were called emmenagogues, rather than abortifacients, probably to avoid persecution in the witch hunts. Midwives and female herbalists advertised these emmenagogic preparations in early American newspapers.

Pay attention. Throughout all recorded history, and long before, every woman knew that a missed period was a sign of pregnancy and three missed was nearly infallible. However they distinguished the 4th month as "quickening" ("coming alive") because the fetus' movements could be felt, and because the fetus was then thought to have "taken hold" and accidental miscarriage was less likely.

Thus the distinction in people's minds and emotions between the first and second trimesters of pregnancy.

Sound familiar? It should, because this was the basis of the Roe vs. Wade decision that the first trimester of a pregnancy is nobody's business but the pregnant woman's, but that from the time of "quickening" progressive restrictions apply.

Such polls and OPs at DU are infallible flamebait. Hope you're enjoying yourself.

Hekate

because when I was pregnant, I would not have had one, except MAYBE if a confirmed anomaly that was incompatible with life had been found early on.

However, that is for ME. I have no problem with other parents choosing to have one in the first two trimesters and I know it is not easy for them.

My grey area is the third trimester. I'm a NICU nurse and I know most of those babies survive. Not trying to cause tension, just telling it from my perspective. I also float to the birthing floors where I've cared for families as they have made the agonizing decision to abort a baby at 20-25 weeks. Sometimes, the mothers have had pre-eclampsia, or kidney failure, or other health problems that would put them horribly at risk to continue the pregnancy. Sometimes too, the baby is ancephalic or has cardic hypoplasia. These families will not be served by the catholic hospital down the street, the only other birthing center with MDs in our city.

And how it will suprise you. A plurality of the votes is "unomfortable after the first trimester." I didn't expect that. As far as the sicko's that are comfortable with abortion up until birth, they are in serious need of help.

Just saying.

It's pretty easy, none of them are any of my damn business.

Still none of your damn business?

and would never consider anything she does in the control and regulation of her body to be any of my business.

I guess if I didn't have any respect for her as a human being then I'd offer an opinion if she asked as if she were property and I had any say in it.

Not that my comfort or yours means jack shit one way or the other.

the poll is fucked, I think

You do the math

with other people's medical decisions.

Now is it DU's. Or the legislators'. Or SCOTUS.

I once had a very smart and beautiful woman tell me off for having an opinion about what she did with her body, and I had to agree.

So I leave it to women.

Sheesh.

and take a careful read.

First - the poll asks NOTHING about the right to control others behavior, or how my comfort level does (or should) impact anyone else's actions. It merely asks about my personal feelings. Those can (and do) exist without necessarily implying anything about how I might act on those feelings (or whether I think anyone else should care about them, or act on them). One of the lessons of the 60s is that the personal is political. We ignore our (and others') personal feelings at our peril when we pursue political goals as if those personal feelings either did not exist or were irrelevant. Roe v. Wade will always be at risk for being overturned or nibbled away at so long as we frame the matter in a way that dismisses those deeply held personal feelings.

Second - look at the results. Even with the venom directed at the OP, and at the thought that anyone might have feelings/a comfort level that differs from a political position, a majority of people responding to this poll - where political support for a woman's right to have an abortion is (for the most part) a given - are uncomfortable with abortion past the first trimester. Based on the current poll results, that personal uncomfortableness is without qualification (23% uncomfortable even during the first trimester and 32% are uncomfortable after the first trimester).

I am in the first group - I am personally uncomfortable with abortion at any stage. Unless I am carrying a child with a condition incompatible with life, whose brief life and death would be painful, I would not choose abortion. Although NARAL is not currently not on my contribution list, within the same time frame in which I came the closest to needing to make this decision personally (post rape) I was contributing to NARAL and other similar organizations which were working to keep Roe v. Wade the law of the land. If there are targeted fundraising efforts to counter specific attacks on Roe v. Wade, I will likely donate in the future.

This, like many other issues, isn't a black and white issue. I find it troublesome that there is increasingly no room on DU for the full spectrum of conversation (and, frankly, it reminds me far too much of conversations I have with my right wing relatives who have never been able to see anything in colors other than black and white).

get this kind of polarized response, and as you noticed yourself, the poll results are remarkably different from the vitriol in the thread replies.

The difference in the poll result and the number of vitriolic posts is interesting to see. On other threads, that vitriol is leveled at anyone who does not take the position that there is no moral component or argues that politically going beyond the uneasy status quo of Roe vs Wade and the Hyde Amendment could be impossible at the moment.

not going to things we as lefties disapprove of too, like wars for oil and gas companies, nuclear energy, Wall Street bailouts, etc.

Unless some medical reason is discovered after that, I question the judgment of a woman who hasn't made the decision by the end of the first trimester. That's quite a long time to mull it over. Plenty of time IMO.

I believe fetuses are capable of suffering after about that amount of time. I'm not sure about the timing, but I believe at some point they become fully capable of feeling pain.

I am uncomfortable with over-population, with abusive and neglectful parents, with poor parenting, and with the practice of having children to fill emotional needs of adults.

... is only pertinent to decisions I make about my body

my pregnancies. (To be fair, they were both very much desired pregnancies, making that position even easier to hold).

I retained my conviction before, during and after, that as I was the only person to make that decision for me, the only person to make that decision for another woman was that particular woman.

seem to sit around thinking about abortion or why there are so many polls and discussions about it. Other women's pregnancies just aren't my business or concern.

Perhaps because this is a political discussion board, and abortion is one of the most contentious political issues in the United States?

I think the reason that so many DUers are *outraged* that the OP *dared* to post his poll is that they don't like the results: more than 50% of DUers are uncomfortable with abortions after the first trimester. And I think this is an appropriate result. As Bill Clinton said, abortion should be "safe, legal and rare", and there is a good reason for the "rare" part.

tradition.

over and over and over again. Why? I'm not outraged, just curious as to why so many people want to make it a contentious political issue. I'm not sure why a medical issue is a political issue at all. Probably because so many Americans are always sticking their noses into everyone else's business.

results.

Since mentioned abortion, I wanted to post a poll that I didn't know the results of ahead of time.

I expected it to be skewed more toward the end of pregnancy.

It assumes a lot of information and uses ill defined terms.

and I would not impede anyone from getting one of those--or any other kind.

since she was still in high school.

without interference from me or anyone else.

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That is why it is and should remain a personal choice.
Because of your personal experience you post a poll that is biased towards your beliefs.
Because of my personal experience I found the poll to be disingenuous and a little insulting.
My daughter was raped 14 years ago and I supported her CHOICE not on what others thought she should or should not do.
She decided to continue the pregnancy it was not easy for her, my point is it was her decision to make and I nor anyone else had a right to decide for her.

:evilgrin:

and DMVs should have early hospice recommendation authority for victims of premature dementia and terminal bad attitudes.

}( mwa ha ha ha ha! :spank:

:hide:

the same as the end: when you have a normal brainwave.

A nurse in class piped up, ''That isn't until about two years old.''

So much for that.

so I don't know whether abortion would be comfortable or not.

It should be the decision of the woman that is pregnant.

the way you prefer?

Or would you not care one way or the other?

That is the illogic of the stupid slogans people keep repeating here.

It is simple. I'm 46 and have had plenty of partners, preventing pregnancy is really not that hard when you think with the right head. Any guy claiming they should have any say so wants nothing more then to control women.

so you are sidestepping my question.

Men should not have a say in a womans choice. I am a man. I should have no say so in a womans choice. How can I make it clearer?

I would support, in every way, the choice she made.

Though it remains that, just an opinion, the choice should remain with her. Should she decide different then my opinion, it would change nothing for me. I would still support her in every way.

I'm not sure where your going with this. Everyone has an opinion, nothing wrong with that, a very natural thing IMO. Having a say so in the choice is another matter completely though and I do not believe men should have any say so.

I'm just trying to understand where you are going with your questions. I feel as though I have not been clear on where I stand but when I read what I wrote it seems clear enough. Is there something specific you are trying to get at because to be honest, I'm missing it.

ones where they kept the kid, got abortions, or put the kid up for adoption, but I've never heard a guy say ''I didn't tell her what I thought'' or a woman say ''I didn't want to know what he thought.''

And guys sharing their opinion did not seem to make much difference to the outcome. One woman friend had a guy tell her he'd prefer she had an abortion, and a guy friend begged a girl to keep a baby and she aborted it.

If anything, not expressing an opinion sends a message--of apathy. So if the woman was truly on the fence, that might push her more toward abortion than keeping it.

i'm well aware that no late term abortion takes place w.out a DAMN good reason, related to the health of the mother, the fetus, or both -- sometimes even if there is a DAMN good health related person the mother might have trouble finding a safe place to get the abortion, so i know it's something they've thought about and sought out, not a casual "choice"

if the doctor, mother, etc. feel there's a need for an abortion at ANY time, i'm comfortable that they know their business a lot better than i do

seems pretty basic to me

it all goes back to that radical idea that women are actual human beings, with hearts, brains, and feelings that should be considered -- if you really believe we are your equals, you can give us credit for making a decision abt our own bodies and our own futures

... I could only speculate on when, if ever, pregnancy would make me uncomfortable with abortion. I suspect it would not change my views one way or the other. So my guess is never.

Of course, as I am a 48 year old man, the question is moot.

and my thanks have absolutely nothing to do with the abortion issue.

and that choice is "If Some Thing Is Wrong With the Baby."

Not all deformities, even the severe ones, are found during the first trimester.



(I was forced to bring a little girl to full term, only to watch her die of a severe diaphragmatic hernia and polycystic kidneys. It's a very touchy subject w/ me. To this day I hate my former ob doctors.)

it would be by reasons for termination.

Did your doctor detect it and not tell you or downplay the risk or what?

And in the 3rd trimester, special ultrasounds were done at the hospital. It was a horrible experience to have a group of technicians pointing and whispering around the monitor and have them to refuse to tell you WTF was going on. But I knew enough, enough to know that my baby had tremendous problem(s). I knew my belly was half the size it should have been, but I did not know WHAT exactly the problem was.

Sadly, I was quite passed the point in my pregnancy where I could have gotten a legal abortion...or one w/o a broad of review making a protracted decision about it. (This was 1983.) During my office appointments, my OB hemmed, hawed, and would not address the problem. With his silence, he did indeed lie to me.

I learned, some time after Amy died, that he had almost lost his license to practice at a local Catholic hospital after he discreetly "terminated" a late-term pregnancy because the baby had some terminal problem.

In my case, he chose to protect himself rather than to deal with another difficult pregnancy ---rather than give the mother the facts and a choice. I should have changed docs and learned the facts. I would have petitioned for an abortion rather than let my baby painfully fight for hours trying to live. (Amy died from lack of oxygen because her lungs could not function properly due to the diaphragmatic hernia. She did not survive the attempt to correct the all too extensive hernia, which had allowed to her intestines to grow into her lung cavity. The extent of her hernia had been detected on those many ultrasounds!!)

A late term abortion would have been the most humane thing to do; I sincerely believe that. But I was so traumatized and so unsure of how to proceed. For weeks --for the remaining time of that third trimester I cried myself to sleep because I knew enough to know how bad it was going to be. Sadly my husband was not supportive. He chose denial.

The only person who would truthfully address the problem (& the only person who would comfort me) was the pediatrician I went to see 6 weeks before delivery. She had a copy of my OB’s chart. She held my hand and confirmed that my baby had a major problem. She then told me that she’d be there for me and do every thing that she could for my baby –-for Amy and that we, together, would get through what was coming. I loved her for telling me the truth.

Many yrs later I found that OB doc w/a group of nurses/groupies having dinner at the same restaurant I was at. My son, who was delivered yrs later by another OB, was with me at the time. I did not want to create a scene, but I wanted him to know what an asshole I considered him to be. I wrote a note no a napkin, "DO NOT EVER again NOT tell a woman that her baby has major problems." I stood there while he read it. I said "I'll never forget what you did to me." His face turned white and he got up & left. True story.

This is the first time I've written about this on DU. It’s such an emotionally painful part of my past. But thanks for your concern and for asking.

I cannot imagine some one getting a 3rd trimester abortion w/o there being a horrible medical or terminal problem with the baby. In such cases, I fully support abortion --but only if there's an existing medical reason. (In the 3rd trimester, we're talking about babies, not fetuses.)

In the first trimester, I fully support any woman's right to chose and without a single caveat.

-d

late term abortions.

I wouldn't want anyone to interfere with your decision to do that.

The pain you feel and the consideration for your baby that died is the kind of honest response I was looking for when I posted this, to see what people think and have experienced beyond empty slogans.

I have no problem with abortion, war, the death penalty or assisted suicide.

and I am uncomfortable with abortion unless deemed medically necessary by the doctor or in cases of rape and/or incest.

I think abortion should be legal. I do not think a woman should be required to consult her significant other before choosing to have one. Having said this.. I would expect to have the ability to contribute to the decision with the woman if in a relationship. Of course the woman would and should have the right to refuse this.. as I would have the right to find someone else.

This is a right wing tallking point.


You are pro-choice but you are posting right wing talking point spin?

Women can't be trusted to be their own moral agents? They are going to just rush off and have indiscriminate abortions?

Stop bringing the abortion discussion right to their level. This is a woman's health and safety issue.

wanted to abort or not. So if I was unable to decide, I think I would become increasingly uncomfortable with abortion as time went on, and would be more likely to err on the birth/adoption side. But that's just me, and it's a moot point because the situation can't arise.

For someone else, I'm as comfortable with abortion at any point during the pregnancy as the woman in question is. So, if she doesn't want it early then I'm uncomfortable as well; if she decides late that it's the right choice for her, then I'm comfortable with that too...

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Serious health reasons aside, how fucking long does it take a woman to decide she doesn't want to give birth?

Unless there is a medical reason for termination that would save the mother.

I have never seen a baby that could survive outside the mother, unless you mean survive with assistance.

And if that's the standard then if/when we can grow a fetus to term in a machine even the morning-after bill will be wrong.

Invoking fetal viability was a glaring error in Roe and it remains at least as problematic today.

If a fetus is removed form the mother and has to be on life support for months or it would die then it is not yet viable. If a mother wants it to stay on a machine that is her choice. But that is where I draw my line if a baby can survive with normal care without the intervention of months of assisted breathing and artificial gestation then it should not be aborted unless the health of the mother is in jeopardy. If we grow a fetuses in machines then there will be no need for abortion because that would be a conscious choice to have a baby and the health of the mother is removed from the equation. And thus no need for the morning after pill.

Read the whole thing. Enjoy it. It is who we are.

"Read the whole thing. Enjoy it. It is who we are."