Should Arne Duncan be fired.

I would love to include some consequences but I didn't want to load up the poll.

:rofl:


Yeah, right.



Edited to add: When I first saw this thread, it had 5 votes "Yes" and 5 "No's", so it was quite close.

A caring nurturer.

to improve education, we must put all the blame on teachers. :sarcasm:

Something about the education system needs to change, and he does seem to be riling up some folks, so lets let him keep on.

The education budget across the US is the largest singular outlay of tax dollars. That means a lot of politicians have their hands in a lot of cookie jars. How do you go about undoing that without pissing off a lot of folks?

interests - how, exactly?

the wall street vultures going to run education for free, ya think?

One of my best HS buds couldn't take the public school. He went to a private and got a GD and learned a good bit. Personal experience.

As for the situation as a whole: Given that school boards are rife with politics and big money, maybe that needs to be altered? I'm willing to see what Obama has up his sleeve, so let Arne run for awhile.

We need change. Change sometimes hurts. So be it.

solve the problems you list -- HOW?

answer: it wouldn't, it would make it WORSE.

Compare the amount of power you can muster over your local school v. the amount of power you can muster against, say, GM.


That's what's coming, though enablers like yourself are heavily invested in blinders. Where you're not deliberately, uh, misspeaking.

GM? I can refuse to buy from GM

Public schools have me by the shorthairs.

We need change. I don't see anyone else making changes but Arne and Obama.
I will enable them to see what they can get done.

Got any other labels? This may be fun.

get their execs fired. you can't sit on their board. you can't go in & observe their factories in mexico. you can't get their confidential financial information, or (without spending a lot of money & time), unravel all the tech sharing, joint venture, part ownership agreements that would show that even when you're buying from ford, honda, toyota, hyundai -- you're also buying from gm & the owners of gm, & helping them profit.


label: blind

Oh, yes I could. With even less time and money than examining all the schools, school boards, buildings and backgrounds of the admins of schools, I could fuck GM all to hell. It would take 20 lifetimes to fuck the schools, and you know it, but you are too blind to see.

Nice try: FAIL.

You have a lot of influence over schoolboards, or at least you can. Together with a few like-minded people, you can even take the damn things over.

GM? You're really going to sit there and say you can have some influence over GM? You don't have a single ounce of influence over a conglomerate. Not a drop.

My local school board, maybe. Unlikely.
The other multitudes of school boards? Yer dreaming.

There was this guy, lets see, his name was Nader, yeah, he fucked GM pretty good. Eh?

over besides your own?

And if you acknowledge that you don't actually know about your own, why the hell are you honking on about schoolboards in other areas?

Comparatively speaking, just on this thread, of course.

Arne, via Obama, is the man that can fuck up any school board, and I say lets see what he can do.

He is a danger to the establishment, indeed. And we need some changes.

Nevermind. I know when to stop wasting my time.

It reads danger. And you read dagger. Hmmmm.

genii like yourself think the local high school teachers = "the establishment".

jesus.

...are the establishment that Arne is a danger too.
He may be a bad guy, I dunno. The shit slung at him here on DU has not convinced me that he is, but Obama supports him and as a good Dem, I have some faith. YMMV

Teachers, three of whom have been close girlfriends, are not the establishment, they are the workers. The school boards and admins are the establishment and all three of my ladies complained mightily about that establishment.

I wonder if you even believe your own bullshit.

duncan is the establishment of globocorp, llc.


but i believe you were going to tell me how, although it is impossible for you to get a seat on the school board in podunksville, idaho, it is imminently possible for you to "fuck gm" as a one-person ralph nader -- sans his law degree, connections, big-money donors & the national organization it took him about 15 years to build?

come on, tell us your plan to "fuck gm," superperson!

did this job and then they can see how damned hard it is. He can't do dick because he isn't academic. and changes? Name some.

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:crazy:

What a fierce and convincing debate you put forth. I am not impressed.

Let's just see what he has up his sleeve? Umm no thank you. I want to know up front what a plan for education is going to be if you don't mind.

Besides I know what is up his sleeve.... H1-B visas.

I am a democrat who has some faith in Obama. So, yeah, lets wait and see what he can do. Lawd knows a lot of school boards need some shaking up, lets see how the master politician handles it.

I will be voting for some one else.

I'm not a moron waiting to see some "tricks". Tell us the plan and let us discuss it.

charter schools that get sh!tty underreported results with non-union teachers and laugh his way to the bank.

No, he's not right. He's more of the same and you better look out because he's got plenty of backing in Washington.

But he's Obama's choice, so he has to be good despite his pathetic record in Chicago.

The largest single outlay of tax dollars is defense spending. We currently spend 521 billion dollars on education, be it state, local or national funds. We officially spend 550 billion on defense, but that doesn't count the money that states spend on their national guard, and it most certainly doesn't count the money spent on the military that is hidden within the budget, which is approximately another five hundred billion. That means a trillion plus a year on defense, yet less than half of that spent on education.

Sorry, but that's some fucked up priorities.

You just aren't thinking about all the local and property taxes that go into public education.

A common ignorance, don't be alarmed.

"Public school systems received $521.1 billion in funding from federal, state and local sources in 2006, a 6.7 percent increase over 2005. Total expenditures reached $526.6 billion, a 6 percent increase."

<http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/011747.html>

Get that? Federal, state and local sources, is that clear? And given how badly education has been cut the past couple of years, I doubt very much that there has been much, if any increase in that figure. Certainly not a half a trillion increase it would take to match what we spend on the military in this country.

As far as the defense budget goes, go look it up for yourself, educate yourself.

Speaking of common ignorance. . .:eyes:

http://www.nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/index.asp

Education Expenditures

Expenditures for public and private education, from prekindergarten through graduate school (excluding postsecondary schools not awarding associate's or higher degrees), are estimated at $972 billion for 2006–07 (table 25). Expenditures of elementary and secondary schools are expected to total $599 billion, while those of degree-granting postsecondary institutions are expected to total $373 billion. Total expenditures for education are expected to amount to 7.4 percent of the gross domestic product in 2006–07, about 0.5 percentage points higher than in 1996–97.
_________________

See that? $599 billion figure. And that from 2007.
Lets see three more years should come to about a 20% increase so now that would be @ $720 this year. And that just for elementary and secondary schools. Add in colleges and we are past a trillion. Like I say, the largest singular expense paid from taxes is education. Which is a good thing, eh?

$599 billion, from 2007, before the recession set in. OK, and like I said earlier that figure has gone down due to cuts in revenue all across the country. But hey, let's leave that number up there for you, it's a nice high number for us to work with.

Now then, when you speak of education, it seemed as though you were speaking strictly about K-12 education. But if you want to talk about including higher education, fine. Let's look at the latest federal budget proposal.

<http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2011/assets/education.pdf>

Go through the numbers yourself, you'll find that total federal spending on higher education is 8.2 billion. That means that the states have to spend another 393 billion to crack the one trillion figure. And remember, our total military spending is over one trillion dollars. Do you actually think that individual states spend that kind of money on higher education? I doubt it, but hey, if you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

Add up also all the universities, and state colleges, etc., and all the buildings of those and the local schools, most of which are funded by bonds that are now part of the deficits. Then add in all the tuition. We're easily past a trillion, now.

It is a good thing education is, in total, the largest.
I wouldn't want it any other way.

But it is just ignorant to think otherwise. And you are wrong about the DoD budget. Check wiki.

You start out stating "The education budget across the US is the largest singular outlay of tax dollars." The implication here is K-12 education. I school you on that one.

So you move the goal posts and add in colleges, fine. I school you again.

Now you're wanting to add in buildings and bonds (both of which are, by the by, accounted for in the tax dollars we pay for education), and now freaking tuition! Where are you going to move the goal posts to next, how much has been or ever was spent for education anywhere, anytime in any form? Geez.

Let me put this clearly for you. More of our tax dollars (your original contention, remember) are spent on the military than on education, by far. I'll even throw in higher education, since you didn't specify. Got it? Is that clear enough for you.

Oh, and I don't check wiki, sorry, but that's a BS source. Check out primary documents and reliable sources, that wouldn't include a web page that can be accessed and changed by anybody.

Like I said earlier, about half the military spending isn't accounted for in the defense budget because it is shuffled off to other departments. For instance, our nuclear missile fleet, definitely defense spending, comes under the Dept. of Energy since the DoE is in charge, at least in part, of the rest of the nuclear industry. Many other items are treated in a similar manner. Then there are all those black box, black budget items that you and I don't hear about until years later. They don't even show up on the defense budget radar, but they are military spending nonetheless.

As much as both you and I would wish otherwise, the fact of the matter, as I have shown, is that more of our tax dollars(your original contention) are spent on the military in this country than on education. It is that simple. You may not like it, you may deny it, but as I have shown, it is the truth. Deal with it.

You assume an awful lot.

Wiki has a page with all the fed budget items. I'm sure it's not 'made' up.

Do you have a figure for defense spending as per the budget? No.
Believe me, it is less than the total for all education spending.

So, what is your problem?

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7840454>


“If there is (additional) cost growth, then we will have to reduce the buy,” Robert Hale, Pentagon comptroller, said Wednesday during a Precision Strike Association-sponsored conference in Arlington, Va. “I don’t see us getting additional funding” above the $708 billion in the Obama administration’s 2011 defense spending proposal."

708 billion, for one program, to build one weapons system. That's more taxpayer dollars spent on one plane that the amount of taxpayer money spent on K-12 education total.

Are you still going to cling to that horribly flawed notion that we spend more taxpayer dollars on education than on defense?

I hadn't read your excellent reply to 'BeFree' before adding my own (snarkier, less fact-reinforced) response. But we are on the same page here.

The idea that education is over-funded is indeed, ludicrous.

-app

What is it with these people and education? Are they just blind to the facts?

nor did you notice they're including college spending through graduate school, i'm sure.

and it isn't from madhound.

Are you accusing me of something? Don't shrink away. Stand and deliver.

I have shown that the total spending for public education in the whole USA far exceeds any other singular item. And have stated it's a good thing nothing exceeds it.

the number you're citing includes college spending as well.

also do an inflation adjustment & cost per pupil comparison, year-to-year.

your number is bullshit.

We spend more on education than we do defense. The facts are here in this thread.
Why do you have a problem with that?

find the *actual* number, genius.

And finding a real number, well, it's hard work, ya know!

education better besides 'fuck up the school boards'. You are blindly following Obama without information about what they want to do because we don't have any other information besides some nice rhetoric and a mass firing.

Education is part of the "Human Resources" slice:

Human Resources
$789 billion:
• Health/Human Services
• Soc. Sec. Administration
• Education Dept.
• Food/Nutrition programs
• Housing & Urban Dev.
• Labor Dept.
• other human resources.

Oh wait. Of course, the military, foreign bases, two active (though undeclared) wars, covert operations, the navy, the air force, the nuclear arsenal, other weapons procurement; they all subsist on MUCH LESS than those wasteful schools of ours. I mean, educating kids is pure pork, aint it? There's brown people to kill out there!

Prty so0n, all kidz wl wrt lk ths, and dat wll b OK cuz, we dnt nd no edukashun.


And teachers are ALWAYS paid more than defense contractors, right?


:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:


"largest singular outlay of tax dollars" my ass!

-app

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:yourock:

Just another fucking failure trying to hang on to a good paying job with benefits.

Smirk.

What were his actual qualifications?

He's a crony, in other words.

The status quo is not an option. We need to get serious about reforming our schools, and Arne is doing that.

However the way this administration is going about reforming our schools is a crime. We're essentially privatizing our schools, is that what you want?

So your base assumption is flatly wrong.

"We need to get serious about reforming our schools, and Arne is doing that."

We also needed to get serious about reforming the federal government. George W. Bush did that. Just because "Arne" is forcing changes with the billions of tax dollars Obama has put at his disposal, doesn't make him right about anything. His arrogant incompetence would have helped him go far in the Bush administration.

He's provided incentives for change. That's hardly force. Nice try though.

Do you want your tax dollars going into corporate profits? The Obama-Duncan plan will guarantee that. Educate yourself. Read about what's going on.

I don't think you are however. Not in the least. Have you even read a single policy document?

Tell us just how you see him doing this?

Not in health care, not in education, not in Social Security (the DLC's next target)

We have to stop this bullshit or this country becomes a permanent corporatist fascist state.

Get the greedy lunch-hooks of corporations off of our kids!

:thumbsup:

:D

after it was back to 0 again.

Has to be someone that is a DLCer or even one of Senator Bayh's inner circle.

these days. On education, it seems everyone's an expert. :rofl:

Duncan is a complete asswipe.

which is very impolite in a public rest room.

Duncan's role was to impress Mayor Richard M. Daley and make him look good. Chicago schools have not improved.

"Chicago Schools Data Under Arne Duncan
Filed under: Achievement Gap, MPS Governance Debate — millerlf @ 3:18 pm

(The National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) test is administered by the Department of Education.)

The NAEP records show that CPS student performance was very poor in 2002 and did not improve by 2007. On the NAEP reading test, scored from 0-500, Chicago 8th graders got an average score of 249 in 2002. In 2007, they got an average score of 250. The nationwide average in 2007, by contrast, was 261.

In 2002, 15 percent of all Chicago 8th graders were judged “proficient” at reading. In 2007, that number had increased by all of two percent — 17 percent of all Chicago 8th graders were judged proficient. Nationally, for 2007, 29 percent of all 8th graders were deemed proficient at reading.

Chicago 4th graders not only fare worse than the national average in reading – they do worse than other urban school districts. In 2002, Chicago 4th graders scored an average of 193. In 2007, the average did jump to 201. But this score was not just significantly lower than the national average but the average among the 11 assessed urban districts, which was 208. The percentage of Chicago 4th graders who scored at the proficient level in 2007 was 16 percent compared with 22 percent in other urban districts. Only Cleveland and Washington, D.C. did worse. Moreover, the gap in scores between poor students – defined as those eligible for the federal school lunch program – and the rest of the district actually increased between 2002 and 2007.

NAEP Math tests were another area where Chicago students fared poorly. Fourth grade math scores made the modest jump from 214 to 220 between 2003 and 2007. But just 16 percent of CPS 4th graders were judged proficient in Math compared with 28 percent in other urban schools districts and 38 percent nationally. The story is the same for 8th graders: scores made a modest climb from 254 to 260 between 2003 and 2007. But in 2007, 13 percent of CPS fourth graders were proficient compared with 22 percent in other urban school districts and 31 percent nationally..."

http://millermps.wordpress.com/2009/09/13/chicago-schools-data-under-arne-duncan/

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/23_03/arne233.shtml

http://www.examiner.com/x-3865-Chicago-Public-Education-Examiner~y2010m2d26-Arne-Duncan-leaves-Chicago-Public-Schools-with-a-billion-dollar-deficit

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/education-secretary-duncan/why-duncans-record-in-chicago.html

since it wasn't ok when we were talking about meting out consequences in RI.

quite proper to call them on it when their "solutions" prove to have worse scores than the schools they replaced.

And also when it appears that there was some amount of puffery & fraud involved.

You obviously didn't read the initial thread either, since it only asked whether "we" thought Duncan should be fired with no reference to R.I.

:sarcasm:

because so far as I can tell, his chief qualification is his outside jumper. :eyes:

Where are his successes? Chicago's education system is by no means an example to follow.

The only thing that got him the job was his friendship with Obama.

for the Secretary of Education. As long as President Obama is satisfied with his performance, he should keep the job.

You think Brownie should have kept his job after the debacle in NOLA because Bush was satisfied? Right. He had to resign after the outcry.

for the same stuff that they are defending in RI. funny that.

He never should have been on the short list of possible appointments to begin with.

I'd love to see him fired this instant. Let him go ply his corporate skills in the corporate world.

That's really all that matters. IMO, he is, and that's the real problem; he's simply a functionary, a salesman.

It is disturbing that he's doing his boss's will -- I regret that I believed the hype. One term.

One, at the behest of his boss, the other at the behest of the people.

Even if Obama were to end up firing this chump, he would likely replace him with someone cut from the same cloth, or even worse, Michelle Rhee, for example.

Michelle Rhee! :puke: I guess it could be worse.

His position should be occupied by someone with decades of hands on public education experience. Trashing Chicago's public schools does not count for education experience.