If Private Health Insurance Companies Are Evil, Why Are You Forcing Me to Be a Customer?

A big part of the final push for this health care reform effort is focused on how terrible the private insurance companies are. On the White House blog, communications director Dan Pfeiffer is attacking the huge premium increases and monopoly power of some private insurers. HCAN is doing a “mass citizens’ arrest of the insurance companies.” On the stump, President Obama is hitting the terrible practices of the private insurance corporations hard. From Washington Post:



I agree with the message. I can’t decide if I dislike the industry more for its morally reprehensible practices or its bloated, inefficient, and completely unnecessary nature. Attacking the private insurers is smart politics and should have been done months ago.

The big problem is that the messaging is incompatible with pushing for Obama’s official health care proposal. That program will use the IRS to force Americans to buy insurance from the same, terrible, private insurance industry everyone is now rallying against.

If the private insurance industry is so evil, why would you ever possibly force me to be their customer?

The messaging would make sense of Obama were pushing for a Medicare-for-all system that would completely marginalize or eliminate the private insurers. It would make sense even if the bill only had a simple public alternative, like a public option or Medicare buy-in. I could understand the message even if the bill had a broad state waiver provision that would allow for states to possibly create single payer plans. I might even except the messaging if Obama was pushing for what Switzerland did by forcing all private health insurance companies to become highly regulated non-profits. It might even be accepting if there were only the new consumer protections but no individual mandate.

The issue is that Obama’s health care proposals don’t do any of those things. It places a few good, new regulations on the private insurance companies (which will probably see a very spotty record of enforcement because that function is left up to the states), but it will now force you to buy insurance from these same, terrible, private insurance companies Obama is now attacking, or you face a fine.

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/09/if-private-health-insurance-companies-are-evil-why-are-you-forcing-me-to-be-a-customer/

That adorable little white tiger cub in your sig line looks like he is smiling...

:eyes:

This repartee should give us all great insight into how the pro-reform set really feels about those 40 million uninsured that they constantly yap about.

I got fabulous treatment for the decade that I went uninsured. After I got a policy through work, that's when the denials, out-of-network bans, non-negotiable charges and fraudulent double billing and add-on fees started.

I had a friend who was hospitalized while uninsured. He paid his bill in full. My fully insured next door neighbor had to declare bankruptcy after the insurance company fucked her over, and that was on top of refusing to cover earlier treatments that could have kept her out of the hospital because they were "experimental". Bullshit!!

"do not treat order" = average insurance policy.

It's beginning to sound that way.

I know my uncle is. My brother, too.

Now that I'm in my 30s I hang onto the policy, but so far it has been a major net loss for me. They refuse to cover almost everything for one reason or another and I don't have time to fight them. After I used insurance to pay for a GI work-up, I got a 2nd bill in the mail for almost the full amount and I haven't been able to get an answer as to why. It's still in dispute. I usually pay my doctor out of pocket because it's cheaper and she gives me a good discount for paying cash. I'm switching to a catastrophic policy soon, though I've heard bad things about these plans, too.

Get this: a friend of mine fell off a cliff and broke his back last year. He was insured but the insurance company screwed up his paperwork for 2 days and the hospital wouldn't do the surgery he needed. How fucking messed up is that? He was a customer in perfect standing but, thanks to the scammy insurance bureaucracy, he was left to suffer for two days before he could get care. The hospital told him that if he could just make an initial deposit they would treat him and then pestered him to put it on credit cards, which he was scared to do because he was afraid his insurance company would refuse to ever reimburse him. And these are the people that will be rewarded..

Nobody should be without a safety net, but many larger businesses engage in a practice called "self-insuring", and it's usually a better financial choice for people if they are fiscally disciplined.

For example, the average premium for a comprehensive healthcare plan for a family ran right around $13,000 last year (2009 national average). You'll hear a lot of people ballyhoo the fact that healthcare costs in the U.S. now run close to $8,000 per person annually, but they usually fail to mention that the top 5% of healthcare users account for nearly half of that amount. When you deduct out the elderly and chronically ill, the average annual cost of healthcare in the U.S. is only about $3,500 a year for a working age family, and as low as $400 a year for young adults. For nearly all of these people, it makes far MORE sense to self-insure by paying for their procedures in cash, and then banking the difference as a disaster fund. If a working family were to do that instead of paying an insurance company, they'd have a medical rainy day fund of nearly $100,000 saved up after only 10 years, which is enough to cover most surgeries. If maintained until retirement, it could be far more.

The problem with self-insuring is twofold. First, fiscal discipline is a tough-sell for many people, and it's hard to convince them to save every month for those emergency medical procedures. Secondly, while these numbers work well for 90% of the population, you'll rapidly find yourself screwed if you have the poor luck to have a child with leukemia, or contract a tough cancer that requires extended treatments. These high cost medical conditions can rack up enormous expenses, and those who "self insure" are unlikely to have the money to cover them. The odds that you or your family will be one of them are fairly small, but it's still a gamble.

On the upside, self insured people never have to argue with insurance reps about whether something should be covered, and don't have to deal with copays. They just see the doctor, and pay the bill.

Our Big Insurers do provide great service? Perhaps he meant in terms of offering The Criminal Politican Class more campaign donations, but surely it could not be an outright lie.

There must be some great service provided by the Big Insurers and those who work for them.

:nuke: No win for the little guy.

n/t

There is the little problem of the legal and ethical responsibility that doctors have. No opt out letter will obviate that.

Are suggesting a Natiional Do Not Treat List?

and what he says bears no relationship to what he actually DOES.

sw

the man does give a purty speech

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Desperate much?

imagine if Cotton Hill "McSame" hired Goldman Sachs trolls, made sham drawdowns, menaced Yemen, and had underlings vowing to mess with Medicare and Social Security? we'd be storming the WH gates, screaming that "we could have had a completely opposite government had we only voted different back in '08!" Instead, we get ordered to vote for any D, no matter how bad, and denials that the Ds are all that bad (usually by DUers who never appear on threads noting the appalling policies the Ds in question propose).

then again, I never met a neoliberal who wasn't a death cultist deep down inside, and populist rhetoric often leads to personality cultism (viz, Ron Paul)

I wish I could k&r this posting by itself.

His actions do not bear any resemblance to his words.

Brilliantly posed question. Thanks!

... what people need to understand that intelligence is a morally neutral concept.

Now, what we need to address is why on earth are liberals expected to vote and support a guy who does not consider them as part of his constituency (or base for that matter).

because how are they supposed to make money if we're not forced to forgo health care to pay premiums for care they will price out of range?

Insulting that they assume I am so stupid as to listen to the stump speeches and not ask this...

I just asked in my email who thought up this latest campaign.

:)

also ageeeing that we all recognize that insurance and pharmaceutical

companies are "evil." Unfortunately, big pharma was also invited to

the White House for a secret deal.

And the greatest "evil" being corporations buying our elected officials --

If not illegal according to the right wing Gang of 5, then it is certainly deviant!!

Love the thinking in this very obvious question!!

drug prices, then we'll hear it is runing out of money.

Me too!

"Love the thinking in this very obvious question!!"

The healthiest are tempted to drop insurance,figuring it's a good bet for them. The odds of getting sick are small so why not take that small chance in return for a new car etc. That decision by the very healthy to leave the pool of insureds causes those still insured to be sicker on average than before. Then insurance prices rise because those still in the pool of insured are sicker on average, leading to even greater temptation for the healthiest still insured to drop insurance, making the pool of insured even sicker, and further raising insurance costs. The result of letting people opt out is a pool of fewer and fewer sicker and sicker insureds, with costs rising higher and higher, until no one can afford insurance. This can be prevented by requiring all to have insurance, subsidizing those who can't afford the premiums. This is also fair since those who don't buy insurance end up being treated at taxpayer expense when they get an unexpected expensive medical problem.

It's a disgrace that our media have not made this simple point about the need for a mandate clear to the public.

The bad behavior of insurers can be fixed by regulations banning bad acts - such as a requirement that insurers take all applicants, etc.

I also find it very, very interesting that as soon as Obama started this new "attack the insurance companies - but pay them!" rhetoric, we saw a whole new wagon of cheerleaders roll into town.

And PS . . . . check in at UP -- do you still have the link -- and

say "hello"!!

will say hello there as soon as i catch up!!

:hi: :hi: :hug:

I'm sorry you haven't been feeling well still --

That's a long time!!!

Don't worry about catching up with me -- We'll catch up when you are feeling better!!

:)


:hi:

:thumbsup:

That's never happened before. Nope.

In my day, it was called a lie.

The enforcement mechanism for the mandates are clear, the IRS, that much beloved agency, is going to fine you if you don't buy private insurance.

The enforcement mechanisms against the insurance companies are far less clear..

In fact California essentially has given up trying to enforce their regulations on Blue Cross Anthem because the company simply ties them up in court with endless expensive legal battles for every single case.

if they so chose to, simple tell that insurance company to comply or to stop selling insurance in their state.

EVERY state has that power.

insurance which keep people from buying it --

MEDICARE FOR ALL would lower the prices for everyone --

PLUS if you're so worried that someone is going to bet on their good health

and not contribute to the pool, then apply a small surcharge for those who

sign up late. Make it a yearly surcharge.

I know all about the whole "adverse selection" stuff, but given the largely unregulated, vulture-like nature of our insurance companies, the government is telling us to line up to be screwed.

Our insurance companies as currently constituted DESERVE to lose all their customers, and it would be their own fault for treating patients and doctors so badly.

I feel no obligation (and neither should Congress or the President) to prop up an industry that has become greedier and more predatory over the years.

is insulting to the working class.

I have worked all my life to give my employers the 'american dream'. I don't give a shit about new cars, I simply want my medical needs to be addressed, as I deserve for having contributed to the gross national product all these years.

I'm tired of people who still buy into the Reagan welfare queen line. Just wait. You'll get there yet. They're only just getting to driving the stake as we speak. The food will run out someday, and I am no buddhist cook. I will refuse you lunchmeat if you are mean to me, really I will... give it a couple of years, you will understand.


PS: Right now I make pizzas. Someday you will understand that too.

What you are describing is the basis of all insurance, the spreading of risk among all member of the risk pool.

So extend your own reasoning. Extending the size of the pool lowers the risk further, thus single payer is the least risky and least expensive option available. PERIOD.

The whole mandate argument breaks down when you point out that we're not talking about single payer here.

It amazes me that people truly believe that merely forcing a few million more people to buy insurance will magically make everyone's premiums affordable.

BTW, nice right wing talking points about the uninsured and welcome to DU.

private corporation. Boy does that sound fascist to me, not to mention unconstitutional.

and Obama is the one who told us a public option was needed to "keep them honest".

Now he's not so worried about having a public option and why he's so anxious to dig them in deeper when he admits they're crooks is something I never understood.

And no skimming a percentage off for the middleman. All funds pay for health care.

...so lets make the For Profit Health Insurance Industry even MORE RICH & Powerful, grant them a de-facto Monopoly with a MANDATED Customer base!
THAT'll show em we mean business.


Just say NO to Mandated Profits for the Health Insurance Industry!

Fix it NOW.
Pass it Later.
There won't be ANY "Fixing it Later" after the losses in 2010.

Rescission (kicking you off when you're actually sick)
Denying coverage on basis of pre-existing conditions
Raising premiums for no good reason (there will be a panel that reviews rate increases)
Taking too much profit (companies on the exchange must spend 85% on actual payouts for healthcare)
etc.

That's the trade off: they get to stay in the game, but they have to play by new rules set by the government.

If this were not the case we would have had single payer a long time ago.

Keep saying 'single-payer' as more and more people lose their insurance, go into bankruptcy, or die. If it makes you feel better. I know real people out there who need this.

If you like the totally unregulated system we have now, embrace it: it's going to keep getting worse if this doesn't pass. And guess what, you still won't get single payer.

when we need system reform.
evidence of flouted regulations and deregulation is all around us.
Insurance and pharmaceutical corporations are part of the problem...enshrining their status in our system as part of the solution is laughable.

Ahem.

I am one of those folks who need medical care. What I don't need is useless medical care and the "privilege" to pay for it.

And before you go on a rant about me not knowing what I am talking about I should tell you that I OWN a medical clinic (can't get coverage due to an auto accident) and I see every day the doubledealing and BS that insurance companies do. They screw the patients and they screw the doctors and they do it as often as they can and in direct violation of laws, regulation, ethics, morals, common sense, etc.

If you honestly think that these insurance animals will play by the rules you are misinformed.

I know there are lots of people without Health Insurance, but who are they? Are they the poor? Are they middle class? Are they a mixture of the two? Are all of them people with pre-existing conditions, etc. Exactaly who are they?

Until we have clear detailed answers to those questions how do we know "this" proposed HCR is the right thing to do?

Another question is how many other people who are now just making it, living from pay check to pay check, will fall through the cracks and become poor themselves because of this mandate?

Maybe this HCR will cause more harm to a greater number of people than what todays uninsured suffer.

This will effect all of us. How can you be so sure this is the right thing to do????

sure we'll cover your pre-existing condition, and your deductible is $25000,

Look at all the money they give to our congress and president.

This way we don't have to have our congress critters actually spend time writing a bill. Another plus is that the consequences of these actions can be a surprise to them too.

First real step on the way to privatizing the whole government.

bash insurance companies, accuse them of rationing health care, but mandate that everyone buy insurance from the them. LOL.

to lose the last game.

Wanting to have it all both ways is nothing new, and it is as American as Apple Pie (which I was told it is really a Dutch dish in origin, which further proves the point ;-) ).

If the private insurance industry is so evil, why would you ever possibly force me to be their customer?

This inconsistency has to be explained by the White House.

The American Public is smart enough to ask it - but does the WH have an answer?

They really need to address this within the next two weeks.

At reply #26.

We Know It.

They Know It (but they'll never 'admit' to it, even to save lives, since they are covered and have their fortunes made for the rest of their lives).

they'll be mandating loans from the mafia...

but it would take the MSM asking that question for it to become a serious issue for them.

with their huge rate increases. He had thrown his lot in with them, was/is trying handcuff everyone to them, and yet they were throwing it in his face with the rate increases. It was becoming clear we shouldn't be doing business with them. It threatened to undermine his proposal. He had to do something.

He added the Insurance Rate Authority to his proposal a few weeks ago as a direct response to the rate increases. Prior to that, there had been no mechanism in his proposal to control rates. The fact that IRA was added at the end makes you question how sincere an effort it is at controlling rates. It was almost an afterthought.

And of course he started bashing them.

I'd be outraged if I still took him seriously on this issue.

But I have tuned out completely at this point.

The Health Care debate makes him look like Spock when you compare it to the financial industry debate.

After the "I don't begrudge" interview, he lost all trace of credibility on this issue.

I see a single term in the future, and am not happy about it one bit.

Don't you know that anyone who opposes this POS fascist bill is a RW tool? :sarcasm:

And IMO the costs would drop later as the many who need care were returned

to health.

We are so far from what this nation needs now, it's unimaginable --

Medicare should be covering eyeglasses and dentistry, as well!

Patients are being fleeced by both doctors and insurance companies --

and prescriptions put us at the mercy of pharma bandits!!

don't want war; want healthcare; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked coverage equals care, and denounce the pacifists true liberals standing up for democratic ideals for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

:dem:

-Laelth

:grr:

Obama sounds great, and then betrays. At least rethugs tell you they want to screw you and back it up with action.

to these people.

about all that is wrong about this bill. It defies common sense for a president to tell the public that he is angry at insurance companies, while handing them a huge windfall by mandating that the entire country become customers of the same corrupt Corps.

Does he think that people are stupid? Does he really think that his words will hide the reality of the bill he is pushing? And has anyone pointed out this disconnect to him?


Candidate Obama on mandated insurance:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/31/dem.debate.transcript/

Senator Clinton has a different approach. She believes that we have to force people who don't have health insurance to buy it. Otherwise, there will be a lot of people who don't get it.

OBAMA: I don't see those folks. And I think that it is important for us to recognize that if, in fact, you are going to mandate the purchase of insurance and it's not affordable, then there's going to have to be some enforcement mechanism that the government uses. And they may charge people who already don't have health care fines, or have to take it out of their paychecks. And that, I don't think, is helping those without health insurance. That is a genuine difference.

But now he has changed his mind.

"forcing all private health insurance companies to become highly regulated non-profits."


I see the issue, we as a family are looking at buying individual care and it's creepy how many questions they ask about pre-existing conditions. Health care is needed for people who are ill or could be ill, not just those who are healthy. What about all the money we put into health care plans as healthy young adults? They should have been paying us, for heaven's sake.

this rubbish from the WH isn't exposed!

thanks for the post

And I don't think the government has the right to fine me on that account.

Wow he's so mad at them that he promised them no PO!