Hot for Teacher? ..... Not at Yale.

from NY Post:




By TONY DAVENPORT

Last Updated: 11:50 AM, April 6, 2010
Posted: 3:36 AM, April 6, 2010


Lesson of the day for Yale undergrads: Forget that sexy archaeology professor -- teachers can't date you anymore.

The university has banned sexual relationships between professors and undergraduates -- and not just those they're teaching or may teach in the future, according to alumni magazine Light and Variety.

The new rule has been a long time coming -- Deputy Provost Charles Long had been pushing for them since 1983.

Some faculty-student romances turn out fine, Long said, but others can be "destructive" to students.

Before this year, faculty members at the Ivy League school were forbidden only from sexual relationships with students over whom they had "direct pedagogical or supervisory responsibilities." Once a student graduates or begins graduate studies, all bets are off.

The news hardly caused a ripple among the student body.

"People were more surprised than anything," said Paul Needham, editor in chief of the Yale Daily News. "This isn't an issue that comes up every day."


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/hot_students_no_longer_in_yale_profs_5BAKiD2a3b0lvaHMc3Rc9I

Most universities simply have a rule prohibiting relationships with current students who you supervise, are currently teaching, or have taught in the past. When there is no academic relationship, nearly all schools take a "consenting adults" position.

at any age. Just look at all the inappropriate student/teacher relationships in HIGH SCHOOL or MIDDLE SCHOOL!

College students are adults, capable of entering into adult relationships with whomever they choose.

Practically every college and university in the country has rules in place which prohibit faculty from having relationships with their students. It's fairly uncommon to prohibit faculty from having relationships with adults who are not their students, but who happen to attend the same school.

And you should get the "dirty old pervert professor" notion out of your head. I've never dated a student, but I do know several faculty who have. In every case, they were young assistant or adjunct professors (think 25 or 26 years old), dating students only a few years younger than themselves.

:popcorn:

The conflict of interest and potential for abuse are too high. That's why virtually every college and university bans it.

Yale took it a step further by banning students from dating ALL teachers. That's a bit less common.

I think this policy is litigation bait.

It will be one of the terms/conditions for being on the faculty, or being a student, at Yale, which is a private institution, and free to make its own rules on such matters.

be free to enforce that "rule"? How about if they prohibited homosexual conduct of any kind? Or any sexual conduct of any kind? Is that a "term/condition" Yale, as a private institution, is free to write into their employees contracts? How about if they simply said that, as a term/condition for being on the faculty, or a student, everyone had to wear chasity belts while on campus?

I emphasize again, before the expected counter-barrage of non sequiturs and "buh-buh-buh-but th-th-that's di-different!!!11" sputtering, that we are talking about ADULTS here; grown-ups, big people, all of that.

And I say again: the first professor fired for having sexual contact with another consenting adult who happens to be a student will be in court attached to a lawyer with a gleam in his/her eye and about a gazillion privacy violation briefs in their hands.

not really a hard rule to make or enforce...

sP

but I work for a major now...and have two others in the past that have this policy in place...

sP

company policies for any company posted on the internet...maybe their intranet...but not accessible from the outside world...

sP

a simple apology is a rare thing ANYWHERE these days and speaks volumes of your character!

sP

The facts:

The upper-level manager of a male supervisor got complaints that the supervisor was showing favoritism toward a subordinate he was dating. At the time, the company had a policy banning relationships between supervisors and subordinates. The upper-level manager ordered the supervisor to stop dating the employee or be fired, using company policy and the complaints as the reason for the order. The supervisor refused the order and was fired. He sued, saying the company was violating his right to privacy by trying to monitor his relationships.

The employer said:
The company noted that it had a policy against such dating for the very same reason that caused problems in this instance: friction among other employees who perceived that the relationship resulted in favoritism for the subordinate.

Who won the case?

Answer: The company.

Why: While recognizing the employee’s right to privacy, especially outside the workplace, the court noted the company had a right to set policies and regulate behavior that might affect the efficient operation of business.

Terminating an employee for violating such policies – especially after warnings about the behavior – was a valid action by the company.

The court agreed with the company that supervisors have a special responsibility to maintain the appearance of fairness. Subordinates have to have trust that no employee has a special “in” with the boss.

Cite: Barbee v. Household Automotive Finance.

Yale, on the other hand, intends to ban ALL relationships between professors & students, "and not just those they're teaching or may teach in the future" (from the article).

As I said before: the first professor fired for having a consensual sexual relationship with someone who also happens to be a Yale student, will be in court with a smiling lawyer.

in our company the policy is enforced when supervision/reporting structure is a factor...however, the problem arises when promotions occur so the company discourages any romantic relationships between ALL employees.

i wonder if Yale is trying to avert problems where one professor is pulling strings (or trying to) with OTHER professors on behalf of their 'romantic interest du jour'...

sP

"You don't get laid where you get paid."

If everyone followed this rule, most institutions (government, commercial, and academic) would work much smoother.

There are good reasons why grown-up adults should refrain from relationships between faculty and students, not that they necessary apply in every case. It's just a reasonably sound policy. People who disagree with it will simply go elsewhere, and that will have little impact.

If signing a contract costs you some of your "privacy", no one's making you sign it. No one can make Yale give you a job, either. They have their own rights. Not giving jobs to people who don't agree to their rules is one of them.

I say this as someone who wanted to date at least one of my students, so I've seen the issue from the other side. A little experience shows the situation to be more complicated than anticipated, and a little more imagination might make that evident even without the need for a painful experience.

it all down in a contract beforehand, and then found out that the employee(s) in question were engaged in sexual behavior that violated the written provisions of that contract.

I must say, that's a curious position for a liberal participating on a progressive website to take.

"There are good reasons why grown-up adults should refrain..."

Sez you - by which I mean one could freight just about anything they disapproved of behind that opening clause.

There are good reasons why grown-up adults should refrain from smoking.

There are good reasons why grown-up adults should refrain from cheating on their spouses.

There are good reasons why grown-up adults should refrain from eating pizza for breakfast.

There are good reasons why grown-up adults should refrain from drinking to excess.

There are good reasons why grown-up adults should refrain from having sex without protection if the partner they are coupling with is the product of a one-night stand.

There are good reasons why grown-up adults should refrain from...I could go on for days.

The problem is, no one died and put you charge of what grown-up adults engaging in LEGAL & CONSENSUAL behavior should refrain from. Your opinion on what constitutes the proper definition of a "good reason" to refrain from this or that is really not a very strong argument, yah know it? :shrug:

Might want to try that one again.


Edit: grammar.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

seems like a prof having sex with a student they are teaching can lead to litigation the other way too. Seems like the university is covering their bases just as most companies do. Pointing out these situations can lead to very bad conflicts of interest and harassment cases to their employees. People are going to have sex regardless, but at least the university has demonstrated provided the basic information to them before hand.

Of course, I could be wrong. But I find it difficult to believe that, outside of the military or a church, there is a legally binding way an organization can sanction a person who engages in a consensual sexual relationship with another adult.

If you get to teach at Yale, you are in the major leagues of academia. Think about it. As an aspiring professor, would you turn down a chance to make your mark at Yale, knowing full well that it could lead to better and better offers (if you are successful) to higher professorships in other esteemed academic settings?

The ticket to success sometimes carries a higher price...if you can't abide by their rules, stay at State U.

So, if YALE institutionally decided it didn't want faculty & students of different colors to date, a la Bob Jones University until just recently, your answer to those protesting that policy would be "The ticket to success sometimes carries a higher price...if you can't abide by their rules, stay at State U"....

You are the second poster in this thread that I have had occasion to inform that I find a particular POV they profess to be a very curious one for a liberal participating on a progressive website to hold.

I happen to live in New Haven and know about enough predations by Yale that it would probably make you sick at your stomach. At the top of my list is their high handed treatment of Peru's artifacts from Macchu Picchu that was plundered by a Yalie back in the 1920s. I don't like it that Yale "bought" a city street in New Haven (but I blame our corrupt mayor also for that one). The honorary degree for W had me out in the street with the demonstrators in front of the Old Campus. Naomi Wolf has described sexual harrassment from Prof. Harold Bloom back when she was his student in 1983. Bloom is still here!

There are people at Yale that I like and that I admire, tho, and I separate my feelings about them as opposed to the institution. All I am trying to say is that where there is this power, there is misuse of power. Surely it is the hallmark of being a liberal to understand abuse of power, is it not? I would say it goes to the heart of the matter!

I am not praising Yale here, I am simply pointing out the reality. I do think Yale needs to abide by the privacy laws...nowhere in my post did I say anything to the contrary. So please don't misconstrue what I am saying and I am sorry that I didn't parse my words a little better...maybe next time I'll get the hang of it.

:hi:

You make an excellent point, BTW. I mean that sincerely.

:toast:

There are those parts that I like very much. But when institutions are big and powerful and have been around for a long time, they can become a "bigfoot" in the community. Mercifully, Yale has become more democratic over the years so the "good old boys" aren't in the mainstream there any more. But one must always be vigilant!

Hey, come to New Haven. I'll show you my "liberal New Haven" tour which includes a replica of the Amistad and the building in which Estelle Griswold was arrested as the Executive Director of Planned Parenthood for providing birth control against state law, resulting in Griswold v. Connecticut. We've got other, wonderful historical places...and the best pizza outside of Italy...

The bottom line is that a relationship between a professor and a student is inappropriate, whether technically legal or not.

As opposed to boffing the professor.

:P

who would invite the first year female graduate students (one at a time) over to his apartment. My friend was invited by this man to his "birthday party" but when she got there she was the only one there and he made a pass at her. She said no to his sexual advances and avoided him with great difficulty for the rest of the year. Gradually she found out that he had done this with other students too. Some slept with him, and some transferred to another university right away or at the end of the year. The female graduate students in the department started warning all the new female students, but there wasn't much else they could do.

It was all about power.

Sorry, I find teachers dating their students highly unethical and very unfair to other students that simply want to learn.

I've seen several situations where adult students married their advisors and its uncomfortable for everyone. First theres a long period of time where they hide the relationship but everyone knows. That student has a totally different relationship to the professor than everyone else. If they stay together people get over it. But if they break up that graduate student might be screwed out of a degree.

Teachers who date students are usually pretty scummy.

Faculty and supervisors can't have amorous relationships with people who work they evaluate. This policy is justified because of the natural conflict of interest that would exist. eta: In other words, the university doesn't say who the faculty can date, but they can say who they can grade. One is within the purview of the university and one is not.

I don't see how Yale can justify banning relationships between consenting adults that have no university relationship.

If I were sitting on the thesis committee of a student who was dating one of my colleagues, would that influence my behavior on that committee? (Most schools require some faculty from outside the student's Dept. on at least one thesis committee, so this is not a far-fetched possibility.) As faculty, I might serve on various committees with people in completely unrelated Departments. I might meet such people in the Faculty Lounge, or Dining Hall, and become friends as well as colleagues, perhaps for years. How distant does the relationship between two faculty members have to be before an impartial observer would believe that their relationship would not influence a decision regarding the object of the other's affections? "No relationship" is also subject to change, as faculty are moved from one committee to another, reassigned to new courses, etc. It's a tricky situation which can easily cross over to a nasty situation without exemplary judgement from all involved. The latter restraint is too much to hope to have in every single case.

Yale did NOT make this decision in a hurry. In fact, it looks like they took at least 27 years. And I would bet it was a very carefully considered decision all around.

I wish the whole thing were unnecessary, but wishing don't make it so.

but university administrations tend towards the absurdly PC.

I thought every university already had a policy like this?

weren't in respective roles where there could be a conflict of interest, it was OK for a relationship to occur

My dad was a university lecturer and I know more than one of his academic colleagues married students who had previously been in their class

It can be a problem, especially if the prof is pretty interested in the student, too! Ego flattering and all that!

A) Relationships with fucked up power differentials are bad, and B) the university does have the right to protect its students, as well as its liability related to student abuse issues.