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I was watching a special about Hitlers' rise to power...

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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:12 PM
Original message
I was watching a special about Hitlers' rise to power...
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 05:15 PM by WCGreen
What really struck me was the role that thuggery and staged marshall events played in his rise from obscure would be far right radical to beloved elected leader.

He relied on demonizing certain segments of the population.

He relied on fading political figures to give him legitimacy.

He relied on a bought and paid for partisan press.

He relied on huge influxes of cash from business leaders who started to see his rise in the polls.

He relied on a huge segment of the population that felt disenfranchised or were made to feel disenfranchised.

He relied on people who were willing to hate the opposition.

All this was played out on a show presented on the Military Channel.

History has a propensity to repeat itself.

Are we ready for the refrain?
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. THE GOP BROWN SHIRTS TOOK LESSONS from these type of programs
The TeaBaggers will fall short this time...
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. History does repeat itself...
Especially upon the backs of those who fail to be aware of it.

And for those of us unlucky enough to be in their company...

Unless we can somehow wrest their power away.

Well said.

K&R

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Interesting how the GOP and TeaBaggers employ all that too...
And project by calling Obama a Nazi, etc.

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WhoIsNumberNone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. More simliarities between the Nazis and Republicans/Teabaggers
Edited on Fri Apr-09-10 06:11 PM by WhoIsNumberNone
They exploited loopholes in the Wiemar Constitution vis a vis parliamentary procedure. There was a clause in the law of the time that would force a new election any time the Reichstag should fail to achieve a quorum. Once the Nazis and their allies had enough seats in the Reichstag that a quorum was not possible without them, they would immediately get up and walk out every time they didn't get their way, forcing a new election and blaming the opposition. (And gaining more seats each time) They forced something like 3 or 4 elections in 1931 & 32, until they were finally appeased with Hitler's appointment to Vice Chancellor.

Obviously the Republicans and the Teabaggers can't employ exactly the same tactic, but they choke things up in Congress and then blame the Democrats.

They also have used fear and hysteria over 9/11 to push through legislation such as the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, and the authorization for war with Iraq, just as the Nazis used the Reichstag fire to push through the Enabling Act, which gave Hitler emergency powers. (The state emergency persisted until May 8th, 1945)

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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Love that picture!
I don't like to nitpick, but the grammar on that sign is incorrect. It should read "Hol Dir ein Gehirn, morans". If that could be fixed, that's a picture to be distributed far and wide.
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WhoIsNumberNone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Thanks
I put "get a brain" into Google Translate and it gave me a blank screen. I asked my dad (who speaks German) to translate the phrase, but he's maybe a little too academic in his translation. It's my image, so I can change it pretty easily.
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Great!
I'm a native German speaker, and our grammar is a b*§%h. I'd hate to try and learn it as a second language.

If you could fix that... oh, please do. Can you re-post or send it to me? I have a dear friend who has gone off the edge and turned rabidly right wing during the past few years. So much so that our long friendship is coming apart at the seams.

That picture needs to be distributed!

Thank YOU! :yourock:
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
57. Where's his Wiesbaden Cardinals shirt?
Edited on Sat Apr-10-10 03:43 PM by MilesColtrane
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'd like to find out who in the USA helped get him there.
He got help from the outside and I bet a lot of it came from here.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Prescott Bush, GW's granddaddy, for one.
Google it.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. and fake aviation hero Charles Lindberg
I really resent being taught to think that he was someone to be admired. He was a slime to the core. :nuke:
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Heywood J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Don't forget Henry Ford.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm
Hitler was an admirer of American mass production techniques and an avid reader of the antisemitic tracts penned by Henry Ford. "I regard Henry Ford as my inspiration," Hitler told a Detroit News reporter two years before becoming the German chancellor in 1933, explaining why he kept a life-size portrait of the American automaker next to his desk.

Although Ford later renounced his antisemitic writings, he remained an admirer of Nazi Germany and sought to keep America out of the coming war. In July 1938, four months after the German annexation of Austria, he accepted the highest medal that Nazi Germany could bestow on a foreigner, the Grand Cross of the German Eagle. The following month, a senior executive for General Motors, James Mooney, received a similar medal for his "distinguished service to the Reich."
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. LOL.. I looked at that exchange twice before I realized
you weren't talking to yourself...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
36. Famous people who you might not have known belong to banking families:
2. Charles a. Lindbergh:

Another supposed "little man" who rose from obscurity to become "Lucky Lindy," hero. In fact, his grandfather was August Lindbergh, who started life as Ola Mansson of Sweden, a bank officer & member of the Swedish Riksdag, also Secretary to King Oscar I of Sweden & Norway. When he was accused of embezzlement & bribery he emigrated to the US, & was wealthy enough to send several of his sons to college in Sweden. His son Charles became a banking lawyer & one of the original shareholders & board members of First National Bank. Lucky Lindy attended Sidwell Friends (Chelsea Clinton's alma mater), among other prestigious schools, & married the daughter of a JP Morgan partner. The political & economic undertones of the Lindbergh history make one wonder about his son's kidnapping...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hannah%20Bell/27
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
35. This "Prescott Bush aided Hitler's rise to power"...
Edited on Sat Apr-10-10 12:38 AM by SDuderstadt
is only slightly less silly than RWers claiming Obama is a Nazi. And, simply googling something doesn't mean that whatever hits come up necessarily have the slightest knowledge about what they're talking about. Not that Prescott's behavior was examplary, but it's simply not true that he was a Nazi sympathizer, collaborator or played any real role in the rise of Hitler or fascism. Here's what Joe Conason had to say about it:

Bush 'Nazi' Smear Unworthy of Critics
...By Joe Conason
October 26, 2003 | 7:00 p.m
Liberal invective against George W. Bush has not yet descended to the depths plumbed by conservatives in their crusade against the Clintons, but that isn't because nobody's trying. Mr. Bush's most zealous opponents apparently believe that his faults, and those of his cronies and his administration, will be insufficient to unseat him next year.

That may be why some Bush critics have been circulating a story about the financial connections between his paternal grandfather, Prescott Bush Sr., and a Nazi industrial magnate named Fritz Thyssen.

The sinister cooperation between prominent American businessmen and their counterparts in Hitler's Germany is an important episode whose details are still being revealed by historians. It instructs us about the terrible crimes that can be committed in the pursuit of profit by men (and they were all men) who regard themselves as a superior race and class. It implicates such famous names as Ford, Standard Oil, General Motors and Dupont. In the case of Prescott Bush Sr., this sorry history shows that even a man who later displayed decent instincts could have been guilty of awful judgment and worse.

According to archival and declassified material recently published, the founder of the Bush political dynasty had much to answer for during his earlier career on Wall Street. Picking up on an investigative story in the New Hampshire Gazette, last week the Associated Press reported on Prescott Sr.'s role in the Union Banking Corp., which served as a front for Thyssen's conglomerate.

Quite reasonably, the U.S. government suspected Union Banking of aiding the Nazis through Thyssen, who had helped to finance Hitler's rise and whose coal and steel holdings were integral to the German war machine. That suspicion led federal officials to seize Union Banking's assets in October 1942 under the Trading With the Enemy Act. While Prescott Sr. held only a single share of Union Banking stock, he also served as one of seven corporate directors whose apparent purpose was to help Thyssen conceal the bank's real ownership.

What the A.P. story notes - unlike many of the Internet stories circulating about the "Bush-Nazi connection"-is that, by 1938, Fritz Thyssen had fallen out with the Nazi regime he had helped bring to power, evidently "over their persecution of Catholics and Jews." After fleeing to neutral Switzerland, Thyssen was arrested by the Nazis. At the moment when his U.S. assets were seized, Thyssen was in a Nazi prison, where he remained until the end of the war.

Those complicating facts don't absolve Thyssen or his American associates. The involvement of Prescott Sr. and other members of the American business aristocracy with Nazi-era industry was shameful, and in some instances illegal-and they knew it. Like so many Americans who made deals with fascist interests or lent political support to them during the 30's, those businessmen got off rather easily after the war. Most of them, including Bush, were permitted to keep the money they had made with the Germans.

They're all dead now, however. Prescott Sr. died more than 30 years ago.

Before he went to his final reward, the Bush patriarch was elected from Connecticut to the U.S. Senate, where he served from 1952 until he retired 10 years later. He was a liberal Eisenhower Republican who distinguished himself as an opponent of McCarthyism and an advocate of public housing.

Henry Ford was a Nazi collaborator. Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. was a Nazi sympathizer. Unless additional information emerges to indict him, Prescott Bush Sr. was neither. To misuse such terms for political advantage against his grandson is to trivialize very grave offenses.

Whatever the President's grandfather did or may have done, how does that reflect on George W. Bush? In 1942, he hadn't been born yet. If he is nevertheless accountable for Prescott Sr.'s actions, fairness requires that a similar standard be applied to other descendants of politicians and businessmen whose attitude toward Nazism was, at best, ambivalent. Should anyone named Kennedy, Harriman, Dupont or Fish be arraigned for the offenses of their dead ancestors? Should everyone boycott Ford Motors?

The obvious answer is no. In America, the sins of the fathers are not held against the children, nor should they be. Although the Bushes have too often lowered themselves into the gutter for political gain, that doesn't give license to libels against them.

It is ironic that the President would be arraigned on a bum rap at a moment when his poll numbers are declining, his advisers admit he is vulnerable, and several books excoriating him have appeared on the best-seller lists.

There are many unflattering terms that can and should be used to describe George W. Bush. He is, among other things, a truly bad President. But neither his offenses, nor the Republican Party's politics of personal destruction, can justify using such tactics against him. Imputing Nazi sympathies to the President or his family ought to be beneath his adversaries.



http://www.observer.com/node/48231

What did Herbert Parmet have to say about it?

11-17-03

What Should We Make of the Charge Linking the Bush Family Fortune to Nazism?
By Herbert Parmet
Mr. Parmet is Distinguished Professor Emeritus of History at the City University of New York and the author of George Bush: The Life of a Lone Star Yankee (1997) and Eisenhower and the American Crusades (1972).

Editor's Note: Over the course of the past month several articles have been published on the Internet and in a handful of print publications that raised questions about the financial ties between the founder of the Bush dynasty and certain Nazi businessmen. We wondered what to make of the story and asked Herbert Parmet to investigate. This is his report.

John Buchanan is a free-lance journalist with a mission. He intends to alert the media, and all who will listen, about how Prescott Bush, the progenitor of two presidents, was in league with some of Hitler’s “willing helpers.” Minimized or totally dismissed by the public, the story was revived from its World War II roots by Webster Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin in their George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography (1992) and given a strong additional push in John Loftus’s sensationalist The War Against the Jews (1994).

Allegations involving the “father” of what has become the Bush dynasty relate to his association with Brown Harriman and Company, the Wall Street investment banking firm, which evolved from a 1931 merger of W. A. Harriman and Company and Brown Brothers, which was brought together by George Herbert Walker, president of the former, and his son-in-law, Prescott.

The younger Bush, by then, was one of the seven directors of Brown Brothers Harriman, a board that included W. Averell Harriman and his brother Roland.

Buchanan’s charges of a Bush-Nazi past are hard to ignore, largely because of his passion as a true-believer and an effective series of articles in a highly independent New England publication. His enthusiasm for getting “at the truth” of all this has been further emboldened by Loftus, who has suggested that Prescott Bush “should have been tried for treason, because they continued to support Hitler after the U.S. entered the war. Loftus, who describes himself as “a former prosecutor with the U.S. Justice Department’s Nazi-hunting unit,” has added the reassurance that he “could have made the case.”

Treasury and Justice department files, including what was then the Office of Alien Property, declassified as recently as September, do indeed show that the U. S. government acted to seize numerous assets held by Harriman affiliated companies. “After the war,” Buchanan has written, “a total of 18 additional Brown Brothers Harriman and UBC-related client assets were seized” under the Trading With the Enemy Act, which Franklin D. Roosevelt signed right after Pearl Harbor.

George Herbert (Bert) Walker’s relationship with Averell Harriman went back to 1919, reported Buchanan, when both went to Paris to set up “the German branch of their banking and investment operations, which were largely based on critical war resources such as steel and coal.” Other corporate entities, all with ties to similar German interests, were then created by UBC, which had Prescott Bush on its board – most notably, the Hamburg-American Line, the Holland-American Trading Corporation, and the Seamless Steel Corporation. On October 12, 1920, the St. Louis Globe-Democrat headlined “Ex-St. Louisan Forms Giant Ship Merger,” explaining that Bert Walker was the “moving power” behind the “merger of two big financial houses in New York, which will place practically unlimited capital at the disposal of the new American-German shipping combine.” In the summer and fall of 1942, Congress, under the authority of the Trading With the Enemy Act, seized the first group of entities, the UBC, the Holland-American Trading Corporation, and the Hamburg-American Line. Buchanan’s diligence has discovered that the latter “reportedly smuggled Nazi spies into the U.S. before the war and encouraged U.S. ‘Patriots’ to travel to Germany and proselytize for Hitler in the early 1930s.”

Much of this is confirmed by the new documentation. The UBC was not a “bank” at all but “in reality a clearing house” for many assets and enterprises held by Fritz Thyssen, a German steel magnate who has written about his role in helping to finance the Third Reich. Located close to Bush’s 59 Wall Street office, it was “founded in 1924 by W. Averell Harriman on behalf of Thyssen and his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N. V. of Holland.” The UBC was seized by the United States under Vesting Order 248 on October 20, 1942, and, according to Buchanan, Bush and Harriman later received $1.5 million in compensation. Similar vesting orders leading to the divestiture of “enemy national” assets continued until well after the war. (A total of ten such vesting orders that indicate the firm’s investments are in the files in my possession.) Other holdings, associated with Bush, are more problematical, such as the relationship with the Silesian Holding Corporation and Consolidated Silesian Steel, which was bought from Thyssen in 1931.

In 1943, after press reports that the Polish mining interest was employing forced labor by using prisoners from the Auschwitz concentration camp, we are informed that “Prescott Bush distanced himself from UBC and had even engaged in the collection of funds for the victims of the war in his role as president of the National War Fund.” He had, in fact, taken over as head of the United Service Organizations soon after Pearl Harbor, raising “millions for the National War Fund,” according to Mickey Herskowitz, Prescott’s recent biographer.

The declassified papers confirm questionable transactions in violation of the Trading With the Enemies Act, but, as with all examinations of corporate malfeasance, more is needed to establish individual responsibility. Buchanan himself, when pressed for more details about Auschwitz, was uncharacteristically hesitant. Consolidated Silesian was the only direct link to the notorious death camp. A file in the Library of Congress confirms the business part of the relationship, but does not give any financial details. “More secretive,” says Buchanan, “is where the cloaking arrangement with Sullivan and Cromwell and Schroeder Rock, which is the Schroeder Bank and the Rockefeller family trust and investment arrangement – that links to the Rockefeller dealings (which John Loftus has written about) to the New York banks, some of which had to do with I. G. Farben through City National Bank of New York in back of those transactions.” Buchanan contends that there are also records involving the City National Bank, which he cites as “definitely the hot-blood area for all the Nazi money, especially I. G. Farben and Hermann Schmidt, the infamous managing director of I. G. Farben,” which was represented in court by Dulles’s Sullivan and Cromwell.

Their relationship with German enterprises, moreover, began during the years of Germany’s Weimar Republic, well before Hitler's rise. An international investment banking firm, they also did business with the Soviets during the 1920s (which was not in violation of any statute), and, all in all, with forty-five different countries. Their correspondent relationships spanned the world and numbered some five thousand, according to Walter Isaacson and Evan Thomas's The Wise Men, transactions that hardly were confined to Nazis or the Soviet Union.

Still, “following the money trail” is a tricky matter. Loftus points out that the Weimar government, pressed to pay their reparations bill, had to borrow gold from Sullivan and Cromwell’s American clients, and that some 70 percent of the gold that “flowed into Germany during the 1930's” came from U. S. Investors, and heavily from clients of the Dulles firm. An internal government memo on August 18, 1941, also noted that the UBC had made ”extensive” purchases of gold amounting to over eight million dollars, most of which was then shipped to Europe, presumably Germany. That transaction, speculated J. W. Pehle, an assistant to the secretary of the treasury, may have been the basis for rumors that Fritz Thyssen “has large gold deposits hoarded in the United States.” His own examination of the UBC books and ledgers, however, showed that “all of the purchases have been satisfactorily accounted for.”

In view of all the financial transactions involving Germany during this period, the role of that major Jewish banking family, the Warburgs (which also did business with the Harriman group), demonstrates some of the realities of the flow of capital. The Warburgs, backed by such American groups as B’nai B’rith and the American Jewish Committee, demanded in 1934, according to Tarpley and Chaitkin, that “American Jews not ‘agitate’ against the Hitler government” or participate in any pro-Nazi boycott. Such denial about Nazi objectives was not unusual at the time. Aryan laws, at that point in German history, were still less tangible than the marketplace.

Understandably, the American media has indeed been skittish about the Bush-Nazi story. The association of the Tarpley-Chaitkin book with the organization headed by the Lyndon LaRouche organization (published by the Executive Intelligence Review of Washington, a LaRouchian press) has not been helpful, to say the least. Nor has the sensationalist tone and dubious message of Loftus’s The War Against the Jews. One prominent critic of the administration in Washington, journalist Joe Conason, while acknowledging that the “involvement of Prescott Sr. and other members of the American business aristocracy with Nazi-era industry was shameful,” protests that “neither his offenses, nor the Republican Party’s politics of personal destruction, can justify using such tactics. Imputing Nazi sympathies to the President or his family ought to beneath his adversaries.” After a story on the allegations appeared in the Polish edition of Newsweek, it was “spiked” by the news magazine’s American version. Major U.S. outlets, Buchanan contends, have also bypassed a chance to investigate the story “when information regarding discovery of the documents was presented to them.” Although carried by the Associated Press, few members picked it up. One that did, Newsday on New York’s Long Island, ran it under the headline “Bush Ancestor’s Bank Seized by Gov’t.”

A notable exception to the skepticism about Buchanan has been the New Hampshire Gazette. Published as a fortnightly in Portsmouth with a circulation of some seven thousand and owned and edited by journalist Steven Fowle, a descendant of the Daniel Fowle who first brought it out in 1756 (making it, “the nation’s oldest newspaper”), it has, to date, run two Buchanan stories plus his interview with John Loftus. Fowle, called by a writer for the St. Petersburg Times, an example of “Yankee Spunk,” explained that he thought it vital to gauge to what extent the Bush family fortune was derived from the Nazis. “If it’s true, it ought to be said,” he emphasized, “and it’s not my fault that it’s ugly.”

Asked to account for the skittishness of most of the media, he responded by doubting that the president’s staff would care much about revelations in his paper and added that most of the other media outlets “don’t have the courage to stick their necks out if it involves challenging power. The only trouble with that is that challenging power is their job.”

Conason, of course, is right. But, at least to some extent, it did happen, even if the details are far from clear. As with all such examples of infatuation with power, or the control of power, or the interests of sheer survival, the story should be told. As John F. Kennedy once said, “let the chips fall where they may.”

The most judicious and succinct appraisal of all this was offered by Christopher Simpson ten years ago in n a book called The Splendid Blond Beast: Money, Law and Genocide in the Twentieth Century:

By 1944 and 1945, leaders of major German companies such as automaker Daimler Benz, electrical manufacturers AEG and Siemans, and most of Germany’s large mining, steelmaking, chemical, and construction companies found themselves deeply compromised by their exploitation of concentration camp labor, theft, and in some cases complicity in mass murder. They committed those crimes not so much out of ideological conviction, but more often as a means of preserving their influence within Germany’s economy and society. For much of the German economic elite, their cooperation in atrocities was offered to Hitler’s government in exchange for its aid in maintaining their status.

All this, especially considering the number of American businesses that were engaged in the German market, says more about finance and capitalism than about ideology. It is a story of power, totalitarianism on one hand, and sheer greed and economic survival on the other – and with no relationship to “morality.” We need to do more than merely sift through the essence of Buchanan's assertions, as troubling as they may be, to appreciate the value of his labors, and wonder at the contribution to public knowledge of Steven Fowle’s maverick newspaper.

What all this means for the reputation of Prescott Bush's descendants should be as relevant as Joseph P. Kennedy’s for his descendants, just as it was for the connection of the Dulleses with Sullivan and Cromwell. Similar associations did not keep John Foster Dulles from becoming secretary of state or his brother Allen from heading the C.I.A. Nor did it stop Averell Harriman from becoming governor of New York.


http://hnn.us/articles/1811.html

The moral of the story is, of course, when relying on Google searches for your "knowledge", you have to be careful not to fall in the Logical trap known as "false certainty". When the "knowledge" your research uncovers bears the byline John Buchanan, Webster Tarpley or Anton Chaitkin (all known LaRouchites - extreme RW), you need to run, not walk to the nearest exit.

It's easy to despise the Bush family for any number of things they DID actually do...but the charge that Prescott Bush was, in any way, responsible for helping Hitler's rise to power isn't one of them. C'mon, people...we're better than this.


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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Loftus is no LaRouchy. I see nothing in this that makes me doubt his integrity and scholarship.
If you actually can point to an error in his books, please do so. If not, you're just trying to cloud the record and confuse people.

Yes, Virginia, Wall Street did help finance the rise of Fascism and the Nazi Party.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
76. +1 nt
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. Wrong. Even YOUR stuff proves the FACT that their assets WERE siezed for TRADING WITH THE ENEMY!!!
NUMEROUS TIMES!!!

but don't let FACTS get in the way of your spew...

THE BUSH FAMILY HAS A LONG HISTORY OF TIES TO THE NAZIS.

nice try - FAIL.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
77. +1000 nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. More of your smears, Doyle?
Why don't you try actually taking me on regarding the facts?

Hopefully some people see through YOUR act.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. What smears?
If a thread appears anywhere on this board, which accuses any member of the Bush Crime Family of being involved in ANY illegal activity from jaywalking to murder, you appear like clockwork, screaming "Its not true! It's not true! The Bush Crime Family are all wonderful dedicated public servants who have NEVER committed any wrong doings"

Are you going to deny that's the case?

I just want to know why. Why is a Democrat so willing to defend the Bush Crime Family?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:01 PM
Original message
Nice strawman, dude...
Edited on Sat Apr-10-10 04:03 PM by SDuderstadt
I've done nothing of the sort. Why don't you look for any post from me in which I've said anything remotely like your strawman? In fact, when you find my posts in which I've repeatedly stated W should be indicted, prosecuted and convicted, will you be man enough to apologize?

Somehow I doubt you will.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #35
70. sorry, but that's spin.
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Ardent15 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Funny how a Bush (Prescott) was involved in the rise of Fascism
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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gmoney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. well, broad strokes can be applied either way...
The right-wingers say all this, too, basically with "the rich" taking the place of the Jews, and that Obama is mobilizing "the poor" (aka the non-income-tax-paying moochers) in a form of "mob rule" rather than letting the corporations and wealthy white guys run everything the way GAWD intended.

It's not accurate when they say it about Obama, and it's not right when our side says it about them. Hitler was Hitler. Hopefully we won't see another like him again.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. No where do I claim that the right is a modern replica of the Nazi Party...
All I am doing is pointing out some similarities between what is going on now and what happened back then.

Basically tactics.

It's always good to look at history to see what could happen in the here and now. That is why I study history.

George Santayana said it best - Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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gmoney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. But people around here say it all the time
You just happened to be the OP I was replying to.
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. gmoney, you are right - Hitler was Hitler.
Edited on Sat Apr-10-10 12:07 AM by tango-tee
We can only hope that we will not experience the likes of him again.

But there are, unfortunately, similarities in how teabaggers and their ilk are being whipped into a frenzy. Let's hope the seeds that are sown now won't bloom in the future.

If only I could think of a way to prevent this.

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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
13. an interesting note to his rise to power. AFAIK, he was never elected to any office.
pulled the strings and bided his time till he got the ultimate prize, appointment as chancellor.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. More Nazi comparisons.
:eyes:

Mentioning the Nazis makes people look foolish.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Not really reading the post really makes people look....
Shallow and foolish...
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. Read the post.
Same Chicken Little stuff that started showing up on DU since the first teabagger march.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Are you invoking Godwin's Law?**nm
**
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'm not one for hyperbole...
But it was more than curious, to me at least, of the similarity in tactics that were used to attain power.

It's really not just a Hitler thing because thugs have marched across history since the first man took a swing at another in order to take power.

It's about recognizing the danger inherent in these tactics and paths to power that should never be taken lightly or dismissed.

I could just as easily said that the Teamsters consolidated power in much the same way. But I was watching a documentary on Hitlers' rise to power and that is why I invoked the name of the dreaded dark lord...
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. So there was something magical about Gemany in the 20's?
Is that what gave rise to the Nazi Party? Magic? It's foolish to turn a blind eye to human nature and human events.
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
32. Dear Proteus, I don't understand your post.
The OP is trying to show parallels and similarities. At a time when a particular segment of the population is practically frothing at the mouth, it might be well worth it to look to history.

I'm from Germany, and I can definitely understand what WCGreen is trying to say.

And no, he does not look foolish. If anyone does, it is you with your eye-roll smiley-thingy and an absolutely meaningless reply.

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Foolish is the word.
For your post and his.

If you're from Germany then you should realize that Germany and the US are in fact two completely different countries.

The teabaggers and co are about to reach their peak. America has seen their type before. (Nativists, Klansmen, Anti-Freemasons, Anti-Irish, etc.) It doesn't work here.

We have more to worry about from the corporate sector then a bunch of reactionaries in the street. Simple fact.
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. You do have a point.
I agree with the portion of your last sentence concerning the danger facing us from the corporate sector. But please don't discount the reactonaries. That would be a grave mistake, as you cannot dismiss a meanwhile rabid segment of the population. The looming corporate takeover of public life plus frothing-at-the-mouth teabaggers - a recipe for disaster. All it will take is for a demagogue to hold a match to this unholy mixture in the not so distant future.

Granted, we cannot compare the rise of the Nazis in Germany many decades ago to contemporary American life 1:1. However, to discount the existing similarities would not be wise.

And that is why I still don't think the OP is foolish in the least. And neither do I think of my viewpoint as being foolish.

What do you suggest should be done? I would very much welcome your answer, as I'm in Europe and watching the developments with great dismay from a distance.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. Here's the rub.
"All it will take is for a demagogue to hold a match to this unholy mixture in the not so distant future."

I'm not sure it's that easy anymore. Palin, Le Pen and others can a medium level of power but people, the press are too hard to control thanks to technology. They can't hide their foibles or misdeeds so easily. (A key factor in duping the unaligned masses).

"However, to discount the existing similarities would not be wise."

The similarities are surface similarities. It's like saying a VW Bug and a Ford F-150 are the same because they each have four wheels. These tactics didn't originate with the Nazis but after their regime, people started to pay more attention to those signs. And like I said, America has seen their type before, we don't have the patience for them. Americans move on quickly. They have shown no structure, candidates or staying power. Bachmann and Palin? They don't believe in the teabaggers, they're just making money off them. Plus, there is no unity in them. It's a thousand groups in 50 states. It's been almost two years and they've shown no sign of combining.


"What do you suggest should be done? I would very much welcome your answer, as I'm in Europe and watching the developments with great dismay from a distance.

Have the FBI keep a watch on the crazier ones, watch the repubs abandon them when they dry-out and the Democrats ignore them. Like Perot's party in 1992, they'll fade away after Obama gets another term. Plus if the economy gets better, the quicker they go away.

The similarities are there. But it's just the same paint-job. Completely different animal.

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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #59
68. Thank you for your answer.
I'll have to give it some thought, but I very much appreciate it.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
43. Not when the similarities
are so striking.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
45. Yeah - especially when the similarities are NUMEROUS and STRIKING!
yeah - any mention of it is "foolish" if YOU say so...

FAIL.

AGAIN.

It's disgusting when people refuse to see the TRUTH.

but go ahead - keep your head up your ass...
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Go ahead. Be emotional.
I'm sure it makes you feel better. And it's easier then looking at the real situation.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
78. You must channel the Vulcan inside you.
All is well, the adults are in charge.

Pay no attention to what you see, believe what you are told.

There is no class war.

Change is impractical.

It can't be done, so don't even try.

Trust us.

If the uniforms were not designed by Hugo Boss, they are not fascists.

Corporations are your friends and will take care of everything, all you must do is submit.

The economy is fine because the stock market is up.

Your children don't need to learn, it only breed dissatisfaction.

And most importantly; OBEY!


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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
50. So are we supposed to ignore historical reference in every case
there are actually similarities?

The OP is specifically talking about the rise of the Brown Shirts and Hitler and what tactics they used.

Military around the world still analyze Rommels tactics during WWII, the US tactics and British tactics. Should we just ignore those too?

Everyone is caught up in the "history is not relevant" theme and prefer to skip over large swaths of history. It is what is it. Don't be fooled just because the folks we are talking about are American citizens does not mean they haven't read about what happened during WWII.

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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. Twain: History doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes.**nm
**
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
21. Talking to my grandparents when I was a teenager, who witnessed it all at that time...
...my grandpa said that the SA (the brownshirts) would storm meetings of the Social Democrats, where he was a member, and create carnage. People were badly hurt and even killed. The same held true for meetings of Socialists and Communists.

There is an excellent book with excerpts of Goebbels' early diaries describing his and Hitler's rise from obscurity. He wrote about how he whipped his listeners into a frenzy, and while "The Party" needed these people to spread fear, he was deeply contemptuous of them. It is well worth reading, but I'm not sure if it is available in English. If you're interested, I'd be glad to check.

A frightening book. I can definitely see similarities to the teabagger movement. And one of the most visible and notorious of them, Palin, is a (by now) skilled demagogue, spewing hatred and sowing the seeds of violence...
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Demagogue is a perfect term for Palin...
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. The problem I see
is that Palin's appeal, the appeal of any demagogue, is at the gut level rather than the brain. Those who fall for her particularly dangerous brand of folksiness can't be cured by providing them with the facts, because they are not willing to listen. Trying to provide facts which run counter to beliefs a demagogue has instilled or reinforced immediately makes one a member of the enemy camp.

If they were to listen and learn to reason for themselves, perhaps the entire edifice of being made to feel disenfranchised, misunderstood and even persecuted would start crumbling. To realize that those you have cheered on do not have your best interests at heart - that they, in fact, are using you to only further their agenda, that you are nothing but a tool, must be terrible.

See Germany during the late 1920s and early 1930s - and then the harsh awakening, the realization of what had been perpetrated in one's name and with one's help. And by then it was too late.
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WhoIsNumberNone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. What's the title of the book?
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-09-10 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. The title is "Goebbels - der Verführer"
by Heinrich Fraenkel and Roger Manvell, Wilhelm Heyne Verlag München, Heyne Sachbuch 19/413.

What I just now noticed, looking at the title again: Verführer = seducer; and then Führer = leader.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
47. thanks... I'm getting it
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. Let me know what you think of it.
There are many good books on this subject - I can recommend any of Guido Knopp's books; all of them are well worth reading. Let's keep in touch, I would love to hear your opinion!
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #53
71. will do, thanks again
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
29. A belated K&R! I'm a little slow so early in the morning.
Dear WCGreen, thank you for a great post.
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troubledamerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
31. The Blueprint for 4/4/15
(1) Stage an orchestrated, perfectly-timed economic meltdown to attack social cohesion & create instability

(2) Create an artificial movement that will be a vehicle for a Third Party

(3) Catalyze these Brownshirts to rage in the streets as (a) a destabilizing social force, and (b) as political leverage

(4) Let this artificial movement be ridiculed as buffoons by intelligensia before they seize power;

(5) Let this artificial movement be led by a charismatic messianic figure who was a failed media artist (Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Palin).

Sorry, folks, America deserves this. For not knowing HOW Hitler rose to power. For NOT SEEING THIS COMING.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. who staged the economic meltdown?
Please be specific. No hazy "them".

Where is the raging in the streets?

Who is letting the "artificial movement" be ridiculed?

I know how Hitler rose to power. I doubt very much you'll see a replication of that here within the next few years.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. Yup with this blueprint I can definitely see how history would repeat itself.
God forbid the teabaggers ever assume total power of our government. :scared:
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
40. Sounds very familiar, doesn't it? nt
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
41. Who Is Going To Be The Fuhrer?
Michelle Bachman or Sarah Palin
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
42. And what happened to the Brown Shirts after the Nazis seized power?
The "useful idiots" were liquidated after they served their purpose. the party hierarchy didn't trust them.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
46. some people have HARD TIME noticing the parallels
well, I'm sure many German's had a hard time realizing what kind of monster they elevated to power after the fact, yet many warned the rest.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. I had a very well educated friend, someone with a PhD that told me she would
Listen to my rants about how we were becoming a totalitarian state (This was during the Bush presidency) when/if the TV news stations talked about it.

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #60
73. it's a choice... and for some it is a very hard one
I think mostly because the truth is that awful. Nobody wants to think their country shows parallels to nazi germany... I understand that, but in the end it's dangerous if ignored.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
48. And he was seriously enabled by a decimated economy.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
49.  Many have been saying there are similarities
for a long time.
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Vexatious Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
51. Part of his appeal
was that he offered simple solutions to complex problems. Sound familiar? And it all played out in a totally screwed up economy with many unemployed.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
54. Don't forget how intellectuals, gays and handicapped were demonized and killed.
Edited on Sat Apr-10-10 01:59 PM by glinda
We ARE there right now.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
58. Thanks, WCGreen!
Great post.
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Omaha Steve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
63. The unions demanded a holiday that they got

The next day he abolished the unions!

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
64. Now go read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer. The
similarities with our times will really pop out at you.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. I read that back when I was a teen ager....
Back in the 70's...
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. I read it when it first came out in the 1960's.
Edited on Sat Apr-10-10 04:15 PM by Cleita
Then I read it again when Bush became President. There are so many things that pop out that don't in the first reading because of the lack of experience from being young and the passage of history from that time. Also the last chapters when Nazi Germany collapses and the allies march into Berlin, haven't played out yet in our time. Makes me wonder where we will go.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. Yep, the GOP has changed handbooks from 1984 to "Rise and Fall"
I recommended that book recently to a co-worker. He had been on a message board where Freeper-types were misrepresenting the Nazi Party and, of course, comparing them to Liberals.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-10-10 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
67. He relied on a lot of the opposition sitting around fighting each other
instead of fighting him
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
72. Just like every career politician I've ever seen.
:nuke:
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
74. Is it a parallel or the use of their tactics?
It has appeared to me that Republicans have only adopted the Nazi's tactics and that is the extent of the similarity. The Republicans are only following the strategy that was inaugurated by Reagan when he played to the racists with his condemnation of welfare queens driving Cadillacs. He created a scapegoat to blame for many whites' failure to succeed just as Hitler did with the Jews. Religious leaders have employed these tactics throughout time such as are now being used to blame homosexuals for the imagined breakdown of families and morality. The Jews have been the Christian's favorite scapegoat for centuries and are being used again by the Catholic Church in an attempt to divert criticism of the pope. These tactics can suddenly backfire when the leadership is exposed as being immoral thugs as did happen with the KKK.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. That was precisely what I meant...
But tactics can turn on you if they produce an entirely different strategy and those who are using the tactics can be swept away and replaced by something far worse...

It's a dangerous way to play the game.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Yes, it is an incendiary game with the outcome always in doubt.
Eventually the masses come to the senses, but far too often only after catastrophic loses. No government is as anti-fascism than the present German government even to the point of restriction of freedom of speech. Take for example the KKK in the United States. They had a massive membership and were able to trample on the rights of Blacks, Catholic and Jews with the approval of the masses. They like the Nazis became hated outcasts but only after they had caused so much unnecessary suffering.
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-11-10 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
80. WWII never ended
It just went into a 50 year ceasefire, with the players going into hiding while they rebuilt their power base.

Now they're out in the open again, and are running the playbook again step by step- only this time their base is America.

We're being subjected to the Nazification of our nation as surely as it happened to Germany.

God help us all- Hitler is at last winning his war.
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