I am Anti-War

I am Anti-War

not because i want the Taliban to win,

not because i want Al Qaeda to win,

not because i want the "Terrorists to win",

not because i am anti-authority/establishment (although i may find myself on that end from time to time, as we all do)

not because i am an "Obama hater" (which i am not, as i am an avid supporter of our president)

I am Anti-War

because war is not the answer,

because there is always a better way,

because i value human life, (yes, i am anti-death penalty as well)

because innocent people die in what is considered "collateral damage", (i guess you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette, or some other rightwing bullshit)

because it just feels wrong.

.
.
.

i am still shocked and amazed that some DUers could be so accepting of war. call me naive because i just feel like there should be more anti-war folks here on a democratic message board. it's part of the reason i'm here.

i remember when the towers fell and after my first initial thought of horror i realized that it was an act of terrorism. we're not at war. this is not full scale war. i assumed they would pursue them like they would criminals. they would track them down and apprehend them. i was wrong.
and the pit deep in my gut grew bigger.

flash forward to March of 2003. i still remember that sinking feeling in my gut when the pictures of the battleships were blasting into the shoreline, and watching the bombs as they lit up the Iraqi skies. i remember asking myself, "why the fuck are we there??" and the pit in my stomach grew larger.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?

we marched. we protested. we loathed the Bush administration for everything it was and we hated these wars. we hated them and wanted them to end. now. immediately. but they didn't, and we grew weary, but we did not give up.

some of you must understand, and i will speak for myself here, how disappointed i was when i realized the fairy tale dream of the wars ending wasn't going to come true. whether i understand what the current administration is trying to accomplish over there is beside the point. i still support our president, which does not translate into unwavering obedience in every policy put forth. i agree mostly, and disagree rarely.

this is one of those disagreements.

it still tears me apart to think that we're still sending men and women over there to fight these wars. it pains me to read day after day of civilians being murdered by our own side as well as the other. it doesn't matter who is doing the killing, it's still not right.

that is why i am Anti-War.


so, in the future, try not to assume that just because someone is anti-war that it automatically means they "want the terrorists to win" or "they want Obama to fail", perhaps just maybe they happen to actually be against war.











not preaching. i just had to get that off my chest.

Rec'd. Well said.

..... what have millenia of war brought us? More war, more misery and no resolution. ..... There's a better way.

there's always a better way.

k&r

Those guys look like they just don't have any idea WTF to do in that situation.

:(

that's the protest at the pentagon.

"i've seen those photos before" but i didn't want to say for sure in case memory was weak

i wish i knew what to tell you, i feel like i know where you're coming from but, as time goes by, i feel like we're in so deep we have no choice but to keep wading

i opposed the war in iraq and to my understanding over 15 million americans just in america took to the streets to stop it, we were ignored, bushco had made up their minds

now we're committed after all these beers and years and it isn't an easy question

do you play poker?

if you teach your opponent that you build big pots and then give them up, you cannot EVER win, bushco built a huge pot, vietnam built a huge pot, we CANNOT keep pouring money on the table and then walking away or we will NEVER have peace

obama plays poker and he knows this is a difficult decision -- the easy fold fucked up in 2003 by dumbya has to somehow be fixed

maybe it can't be fixed but getting america known as a "quitter" won't help our children and grandchildren have peace, there is such a thing as the future

We are still in Japan, Germany, South Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, UK, Turkey, Italy.....I'm tired of typing.

So that wasn't a simple act of protest you see. That woman was actually taking her life into her hands by doing what she did.

Funny thing is most of the National Guardsmen back then became National Guardsmen to avoid being drafted and sent off to Vietnam and into combat.

Don

The victims of war are humans. I am human. The warriors are humans.

The painful dis-junct between these facts and the persistence of war alienates me from whatever it is I thought I was.

I really struggle deeply with how to be true to what I think is real and how acceptable, nay even Desirable, war is to others.

May our ranks increase.

And I am shocked that some DUers can live in a world where such simplistic statements as

"some DUers could be so accepting of war" could be made with a straight face.

Now my credentials for being against war is that I was so against the Vietnam war that I protested, risked jail by refusing to cooperate the draft.

Then I went to SE Asia and from 1978 to 1985 worked with refugees and eventually became chief of operations for IOM for refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and even a few from Afghanistan and Iran.

The lessons from resettling 440,000 refugees is far too complex to list here but in the context of your post here are some of them.

1) Most insurgencies can in fact be defeated. Contrary to the common wisdom civilized countries do not simply collapse every time there is an insurgency. Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia all successfully countered very strong insurgencies and in every case you can find articles that all (except Singapore) were going to be the 'next Vietnam'.

2) Stopping our involvement doesn't mean the end of killing. Over a million Cambodians were killed until the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia and got rid of the Khmer Rouge.

3) The goal of Al Queda and other Jihadists in the Afghan/Pakistan/India theater is to reignite tensions between Pakistan and India. The consequences of an all out war betweent these countries would be astronomical. When they divided the countries it is estimated that a million people died in "unorganized" fights that occurred spontaneously. This area has a greater potential for the break out of a full scale war that would have millions of casualties than even Israel/Palestine.

The fact that India, Pakistan and Afghanistan have developed such a high level of cooperation recently shows that the people in the region are keenly aware of the potential for the outbreak of violence that would make the current conflict look like a picnic.

People keep asking "could this be another Vietnam" (which also resulted in millions of refugees) when they should be asking "could this be another Cambodia".

4) There are legitimate and thoughtful questions to be raised about our involvement in Afghanistan and there are several DUers who raise thoughtful questions but the meme that Iraq equals Afghanistan is not only foolish it actually undermines the case against war. Every country has a right to defend itself and the Taliban was actively involved in the actions that resulted in the attacks of 9/11. The war against Iraq was a war of aggression that had no legal justification and by equating all war together you actually trivialize the arguments against wars of aggression and our involvement in Iraq.

5) While, obviously not a reason to justify the war in Afghanistan, our involvement can work with the Afghani people to establish a reasonable quality of life and join the civilized world. The most obvious advantage to the Afghan people is that we can help make sure that scenes like this never occur again:



6) Part of the reason that Afghanistan is in the situation that it is today is that it became ground zero in the cold war and was the last war by proxy. When we got our high profile victory we packed up and left chaos behind and now we can help restore what used to be in Afghanistan.

The common and frankly racist opinion often stated that "Afghanistan has never been civilized and never will be" is not based on fact. The fact is that while the very remote areas were not civilized (like similar areas in Pakistan, India and China are still today), the central government of Kabul has in fact been at times among the most liberal in the Islamic world:





Are there principled and intelligent reasons to be against the War in Afghanistan?

Of course there is.

There are also principled and intelligent reasons to support the Administration in its effort to bring an end to the insurgency and help the Afghan people establish a government that respects the rights of its citizens to the basic freedoms that all people aspire to. Your condescending criticism of people who support the administration as "pro war" is insulting. I also believe that it is not particularly well informed about the reality in Afghanistan.

You live in a world where war is the ultimate horror.

That is your decision. In the real world there are many types of horror and sometimes they can only be solved by armed conflict. You can continue to live in your world and write condescending OPs about how everyone who doesn't agree with your position is blind to the "horror" of war you can . War is not the only midwife of horror and sometimes it is necessary to be involved in an armed conflict in order to prevent a much greater horror. Such endings are not 'fairy tales' as they have occured in Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia. The ending of armed conflict in Cambodia, for example, created the most horrific killing fields in modern history until the armed forces of the People's Republic of Vietnam ended that horror with yes, armed conflict.

However if you are really really really as anti war as your OP suggests then I suggest that you get involved with helping people who are the actual victims. You can apply and volunteer to work in refugee camps outside the US. Or you can contact the International Rescue Committee and work with refugees in your neighborhood and demonstrate how anti war you are by helping them build a new life.

You can contact the IRC here: http://www.theirc.org/

and find out how to help refugees here: http://www.theirc.org/our-work/resettling-refugees

But it takes a lot more time than writing an OP.

Assholes killing women with an AK-47 in the sports arena really seems like the way we should leave that country.

That means we are a peace loving people.

Perfect.

All I can see is that killing causes killing.

There ARE other ways. We just are not committed to them, partly because almost ALL of our resources go into killing and very little else.

saying killing causes killing supposes there wasn't any killing going on before we stepped in. Might as well say that life causes killing.

Your comment about resources and almost all of them go into killing and very little else needs some refinement. Clarification.

You cannot have aid workers in an area that isn't secure, but I'm silly that way.

Not all, but a significant portion, of what you are saying is Self-fulfilling prophecy. Amongst other things, this makes those aide workers too far behind the curve to actually change anything.

If we had something even remotely resembling the power and influence ($$$$$$$$$$$$~) of MIC, but dedicated to Peace instead, things would be different.

But that's beside the point because our Universal Death Cults are going to cause species suicide first.

Admit it, Clifford, **YOU** love war and you will find ANY excuse to justify it.

Unpleasant, but welcome to humanity. Hopefully you'll enjoy a long and fruitful stay.

But I love anything that annoys you.

:hurts:

"If it were proved to me that in making war, my ideal had a chance of being realized, I would still say "No" to war. For one does not create human society on mounds of corpses." Louis Lecoin, French pacifist leader

Just trying to better understand what being anti-war means to you

to end it. If their leader says it's a good thing it's a good thing. If Bush said it was a good thing it was a bad thing. Everything is now linked to a "team win" and the dead civilians, soldiers, and billions wasted on something that only greater intelligence can "fight" matters not.

Beautifully written,. I wish I could have said it as well. From my view, in this day and age, war is always counterproductive, and violence as problem solver is not acceptable. War in itself should be considered criminal, and in fact, there are sound arguments that America's wars today are illegal; "Crimes Against the Peace".

War is a choice.

I often wonder where people's consciences went to around here. :(

I don't care how many of them kill each other. They're kinda brown and we know THAT means they mean absolutely nothing as long as I get my peace cred on.


Fuck me the stupid is thick around here sometimes.

I'm anti-war, but in THIS world being the people of peace, love and understanding sometimes creates Cambodia.

Which was a completely preventable tragedy...

Although I like tattoos that are based on the piles of skulls photographed there, so there's another upside.

No war for US and great tat ideas. Perfect.

In Vietnam (And Cambodia and Laos) and then letting that war be about profits, and not really caring who won or not, and then the population in the USA got tired of it. So then we pulled out, and while all that was going on (for over a decade) the area was de-stabilized, so then Pol Pot came in.

Same thing as will happen whenever, wherever, we fight endless wars for profit.

These wars were a lie and they used the murders of my co-workers for their filthy lies to start these wars, and they still keep up their filthy lies to keep them going!

To believe otherwise is only to lie to oneself.

Bring our soldiers home and stop the damn murdering..because it is murder what the USA governnment and MIC are committing!

For the greed of few.

It's where we take our cute little rules and laws and suspend them. So when someone advocates for war, they are advocating for all the things we're not supposed to be doing to our fellow humans.

The veneer of civilization is very thin at times.

what was the better way in WWII?

well, we'll let you get back to worshiping G W Bush & his wars, how's that?

because it's a platitude

it SOUNDS nice

but it's utter rubbish

there is NOT always a better way

i repeat. what was the better way in WWII?

You're right, it's a platitude. It makes the speaker feel wise and enlightened, like they've discovered some grand truth, and anyone else who contests it is an ignorant barbarian. It comes down to someone trying to puff their own ego by being "superior."

Fact is, they're just ignorant. Idealism has its place, and it can be good, but it should always be tempered with a dose of realism as well. There are no absolutes. When someone syas war is wrong, will they then applaud Clinton for not sending some forces to Rwanda to stand between the Hutus and Tutsis? when they say war is wrong, are they willing to let the Taliban massacre at whim in Afghanistan? if war is wrong, then was the rape of Nanking, the Holocaust and Porjamos, the mass murders in Ethiopia and Croatia "right"?

to adhere to the paulsby principle (tm)

if you tend to agree with me, you tend to be correct ;)

:applause:

I think your opinion of war is quite clear.

Thank you.

I have a son serving in al Basrah who recently wrote something very similar.

dollars on weapons and armaments of mass destruction. :sarcasm:

The war will NOT ever end until the corporations comprising the MIC have had their fill. UNLESS ... you stop sending your children to kill and die for large multi-national corporations?

Just say NO TO WAR!

:thumbsup:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XYy470fpCVM/SwIybCCiGJI/AAAAAAAAAZw/ZGaYN4e9s74/s1600/Kent+State+shooting.jpg

Now, mind, I'm anti-war as well. Howver, i'm a pragmatist, and know that yes, sometimes there needs to be a fight.

Let's take Afghanistan. It's a war that shouldn't have been started, I think we can all agree on that. Regardless, it was started, we smashed the country and let it rot in the sun for a while. The guys we were supposed to be smashing got reorganized while we were ignoring hte place, and now they stand to retake the place; we know from their previous takeover that pretty much anyone who has expressed any outlook less fundamentalist than these folks is going to get killed if they take over. We know that the women who are going to school right now, will be bagged and beaten to death with rocks, if these guys take over. We know that, if these guys take over, the police and military of this nation, who are trying to keep the place together, are going to have their brains blown out. We know, because it's what happened before.

All that's standing in the way of this carnage, is our military presence, because those police and that army simply aren't strong enough.

So my question is, what do you do?

I don't think tucking daisies into gun barrels and mouthing inane John Lennon lyrics is going to dissuade people who lynch men for not having their beard at the proper length, it's inspiring stuff in your pictures, but there's a world of difference between a tense situation between national guardsmen and peace protestors, and the situation in Afghanistan.

Only buy raw materials from other countries if needed. Keep out of other peoples business. Don't visit countries unless you can follow their guidelines. If you do go, you're on your own (will help with embassy). It's not your country it's theirs. Use star wars (lasers) to stop incoming nuclear missiles. Defense, Defense, Defense. Patrol our skies and waters with ships that can kick their ass before they even know what hit them. Set solid boundaries with no questions asked adherence. The best offense is a strong defense. Does that answer your question?

I gave you a situation, and asked you what you would do.

"Buy American" isn't going to help Afghans not get fucking killed by the Taliban, is it? "Star wars" sure as hell isn't going to fix the china shop we just smashed up, is it?

Corp thing to change the country into one that respects the civil rights of women. We need to hold the Taliban at bay while the country changes. We need to be police not warriors and we need to not be the only policeman on the block.

War is only good in a zero sum game. What peace requires is a win win outcome. The Taliban could be gone in one generation if the next generation was taught not to be Taliban. That could take less time than this endless war has taken.

I am a veteran of the Vietnam war and seeing the way the war ended and our relationship to Vietnam today makes me understand the complete futility of the war. We could have had in the 1960's what we have today without all the killing and suffering since then.

Peace takes a lot more work than war does.

to be immoral, savage or heathen. Basically changing a society to our point of view or robbing them of their resources. Understand that we have killed over 1 million Iraqi's and for what?

Seriously, they don't put the peace corp down in places where people are getting gunned down regularly. You say "hold the Taliban at bay" and that's a good idea, but how are you proposing that be done? They're not vampires, so planting garlic won't help. And as I mentioned, poking flowers into their guns isn't going to do much good.

You're right, the Taliban "mentality" could be gone in less time than the war takes (which is still considerably less than a generation) - The Taliban has always been a minority in Afghanistan, and the Afghans are by and large happy to be rid of these people. The problem is, it's hard to teach, if the teachers are getting their heads cut off, see?

As I already said, I don't endorse starting a war. However, we have a few, and the question is, what do we do about them? Packing up and going home and leaving them in the mess they're in at the moment is, to me, unconscionable. I often figure that my "fellow liberals" would never propose this, if these were not Muslim countries populated by brown people.

Keep your behind here or if you travel out of the country you do so at your own risk. Stay the heck out of their business. Protect our borders with voracity. What is so hard to understand?

Bring a few thousand of our pets out, and walk away after declaring victory.

The only alternative is to stay there forever. Changing a culture takes centuries and that's all that will prevent the catastrophe you describe, which is what was happening when we blundered sideways into that quagmire.

Thank you for putting "Why?" so well, Soylent Brice.

There is another power at play, the hand of the War Party, the Secret Government.

Otherwise, there would be peace.