Maybe I'm crazy. Am I the only one on all if DU who thinks that illegal immigration is a bad thing?

Illegal immigration is bad for everyone involved.

I'm a legal immigrant.

I certainly don't think it's a bad thing.

There must be a way to stop coyotes and not act like Nazis.

:)

My husband has a sweatshirt with that picture on it. He gets lots of comments, and support, whenever he wears it.

The native Americans are the ones who should really be screaming to the rafters. What was done to them, and is being done to them, is indefensible.

Forcing people to live in the shadows, having essentially no rights, it the problem. The fact that they are here is not the problem.

better - anyone willing to risk their lives to get here deserves a fair shake - but we need to better protect the border to discourage that trafficking and the crime it generates. Evidently, if you live along the border, you see weird and sometimes, bad, shit happening.

Oddly enough a lot of the same folks hate NAFTA and blame it for all our economic problems mostly caused by China. Go figure.

Illegal immigration is a symptom of the problem, and not the problem itself. So long as we keep ignoring the actual issue and spend our time screeching and chasing "illegals" nothing will ever get solved.

:D

folks into frenzy and have people who will go vote in november because they are fired up.

How can this stand up to higher court scrutiny?

We think we can legislate it, but we can't. We can only regulate to a reasonable degree.

It's just that unlike the freepers, we are smart enough to separate the bad thing from a labeling of bad people, or a bad race.

Bad economic conditions, unequally bad, along with some bad law, keep us from dealing rationally with the bad thing.

But I don't support the damn Minutemen, I don't support throwing them all out, and I think anyone who does is a filthy racist.

Racist laws aimed at illegals are revolting.

I also don't feel the solution is amnesty and open borders.
There must be a reasonable immigration policy and it MUST be enforced.

"ENFORCE"! The current laws are a joke, and rounding up all the illegals, which by the way is impossible, is also a joke. Republicans talk big, but they don't want any "enforcement", especially when it comes to going after the EMPLOYER and not those who come here to try and find work to support their families.

I think we need reform, and we need to control the borders along with making sure we keep out the criminal element that only wants to break the laws, not work. We need to make sure that if an employer really does need help they can get it through programs that make sure the employer is not firing he current work force and just wants to hire those who will work for less money! We need to make sure that employers are not abusing the workers, which they do when the workers are illegal. We need to get those who are here and not breaking the laws on a track to get legal status, but we also need to make sure that those who have been going through the "LEGAL" process to come here to work are put ahead of those who broke the law coming here. We need extensive background checks to keep out the criminals and we really need to enforce the laws with the employers who have been exploiting cheap labor for years!

Like you said it MUST be enforced if it is to work, and not just the workers, but for the employers as well!

It should be the employers who should be targeted. But the conservative business interests love how illegal labor is driving down wages, so they won't go there. The truth is, if no one hired illegals, they would stop coming or would apply for legal entry. But still, it's horribly inhumane to vilify desperately poor people who are just trying to survive. Leave it to the conservatives to blame the victims.

I'm against illegal immigration and against racial profiling. They need to figure out a non-racist/non-fascist way to carry out the laws of the land!

It does provide you with cheap food, though. If illegal hiring really bothered you, you'd stop eating factory food.

The Republicans don't want to go after the companies that hire, because they ARE the companies that make their money exploiting people who have no power.

giving the 'death penalty' to any company knowingly hiring illegals. Many Hispanics left the state after that law because of lack of work.

In Arizona, they're working on a law that allows the police to stop and demand proof of citizenship from anyone they deem "suspicious" looking (I'm guessing that will mean anyone of a darker skin tone than the late Michael Jackson). In addition, the bill allows citizens to sue their localities if they don't think the constabulary is stopping and harrassing enough people, which is an open invitation to the most xenophobic elements to sue until they get their way.

Are you in favor of such a system? Why or why not? Is curtailment enough, or does it need to be stopped altogether? If illegal immigration is a bad thing, what steps do you want government to take?

Our case is made in the very first word of the phrase "illegal immigration." It is a bad thing, and should not be tolerated.

If the corporations were substantively prosecuted for hiring undocumented workers, illegal immigration would slow to a trickle.

I gave the timely and pertinent example of what's going on in Arizona. Do you approve? Does it go too far? Does it not go far enough? Make the case. How much money should governments be spending on enforcement? What are they spending now? Should that amount increase? If so, how much more are you willing to pay in taxes to make it happen? Make the case. What are the penalties now for employers who hire people without verifying their citizenship status? Should those be tougher or more lenient? Are fines sufficient, or should employers go to jail or be put out of business? Make the case.

If an illegal alien is employed in the US, fine the employer an amount sufficient to fund deportation of the illegal alien to his/her country of origin. Levy an additional fine against the employer (beyond the amount needed to fund deportation of the illegal worker) to go into a fund for the purpose of deporting non-employed illegal aliens as they are discovered.

Simple.

to compel them to stop hiring illegal immigrants.

Hahahaha!

:thumbsup:

Where I grew up there was a huge chicken processing company, and once a year or so, INS or later on ICE would come in, round up all the illegal workers, and ship them back to Mexico and fine the company $50,000 or so, then the company would send a bus down to a border town and pick up a bunch more folks and do the same thing over and over again. When its cheaper to pay the fines than hire legal workers, this is going to continue.

So I guess I don't understand the umbrage of the original post (which, of course, you aren't responsible for, since you didn't make it).

Additionally, what makes a person an illegal immigrant? Any number of people enter the country legally or seeking sanctuary from lethal persecution, make a life for themselves (including making a home and raising a family), and then through the dilatory process of the INS become "illegal" through no fault of the individual involved. Is it good public policy to disrupt these families and ruin the lives of spouses and children (who may be full citizens because they were born in the U.S.)? Should provision be made for the "legal" family left behind? How would that be paid for? Or do we just shrug and turn our backs on fellow citizens because they made a choice that turned out to be bad due to our own unwillingness to reform the immigration process?

There are a lot of questions and details lurking behind the phrase "illegal immigrant." I don't see them addressed very well by generalities.

by making them pay people the same no matter what. the incentive won't be there then. and people who are just trying to have a better life can be treated with decency instead of like animals. we should also work to improve mexico's standard of living and outlook there. you don't see canadians jumping any fences to get here do you.

intervening in the affairs of sovereign nation Canada "to improve the standard of living" there, do you? Hrm... let me think of some recent examples of where the US intervened "improve the standard of living..." There's Afghanistan, for one. Oh, and Iraq, too. Somehow I don't think Mexico would welcome this sort of intervention.

It is precisely US "intervention" in Latin American countries that is one of the root causes of the illegal immigration problem. The US has been intervening in Mexican affairs since 1857 and in other Latin American countries since the 1900's. The United States has continually destabilized countries and supported regimes that were "friendly" to the United States meaning, they allowed US companies to acquire natural resources and products at prices favorable to them at the expense of the people. One of the reasons the people like Chavez, and Morales are so hated, and why Calderon was elected in Mexico instead of Lopez-Obrador.

You don't see the US intervening in Canadian affairs 1. Because Canada began as a protectorate of Britain, which though the US gained its independence from Briain, was still powerful enough to repel attempts to invade Canada in the 1800's. Britain's protection allowed Canada to develop without constant destabilization until it could stand and do business on its own. 2. They are White and thus considered brethren to the US so we doe business with them not try to exploit them.

and develop fair and equitable business and trading partnerships with them. It is a bad idea for us to continue fucking those countries over. That should be our intervention into those countries. Until then we need to shut the fuck up about the consequences of our actions in the form of immigration of political and economic refugees into this country.

that doesn't further the agenda of those currently in power (who presumably would receive any official reparations on behalf of "their people")?

It seems to me a situation (rather like Afghanistan) where the best course of action is to STOP INTERFERING, pull out, say "sorry for that" and then stay the fuck away. Is there really any way in which the US can interfere FURTHER in Latin America without causing further trauma?

Corporations wanting to do business in those countries need to pay fair wages to workers and fair prices to the producers of resources from those countries. The US should also assist with the development of infrastructure in those countries without expectation of profit and using the local population as workers. Just off the top of my head, those are two ways that reparations can be made.

Not an outside, 3rd party govt. Repealing NAFTA may be a tremendous start on helping to make that happen. Coincidentally, it will also be INCREDIBLY popular (populist, even!) here on the home front. I would draw the line at the US trying to directly fund infrastructure improvements, though. Like I said earlier, any further US meddling in the region can almost be nothing but bad. We give $5 million for an infrastructure project, and Calderon steers those dollars to his people (not THE people) and the US takes the blame for any calamity that follows. I think that after decades of malign intervention, benign neglect may be the only antidote.

mexico to raise their standard of living.

And any help the US tried to provide... goes through Calderon. Unless you support the notion of "trickle down" reparations (or aid) I don't see how the US can do *anything* positive other than apologize for past meddling, quit all current and future meddling, and let Mexico sort itself out. Maybe the UN could monitor the next election to help make sure it's not tampered with. But the US can't - we've done harm. Further meddling at this point can only mean further harm.

They can then demand minimum wage and are not exploitable. That takes away the incentive. We then compete on even ground with them so they really will have no reason to come unless there is a job surplus. Simple.

Sending people back doesn't solve anything. You've only deported one person.

Why not just fine the employer enough to discourage hiring? Why the need to 'send them back'?

Here's the deal - you go to Mexico without any approval from the government, announce that you intend to stay there indefinitely anyway, and see what happens. When you've paid your ransom and gotten out of Mexican jail, re-post here and tell us about your experience.

The reverse does not happen.

The US is a first world country and that makes it a place immigrants come to, and there are few emigrants, who only do it for personal reasons.

We do not have to be like other countries, either. And in Mexico they can easily deport illegals. How many do they have? With their shitty economy that spits their people out, what immigrants are they going to get? Very few.

so we will continue to harrass and vilify brown people, because it makes people feel good to do so.

Liberalize the law to allow more people to enter and exit legally will solve the problem much more cheaply.

Reward them for it?

didn't need to make their case because it was "legal" huh?

evaluating any possible problems. In fact, the word is wrong. Immigration is not a criminal issue. It is a civil procedure.

the Supreme Court has said this. It is like breaching a contract. Just a civil issue.

There is no criminal penalty for it, but that does NOT mean it is not illegal. Only the range of prescribed remedies differs.

This is a problem with the immigration debate. People misuse words and attempt sophistry to justify their positions. "Nobody is illegal." Catchy slogan. And largely true. Although it must also be said that certain people's presence in certain places *is* illegal. "It's not illegal, it's only a civil violation." This is an abuse of the meaning of the word "illegal," which (as I said before) does not discriminate between criminal and civil law, it only applies to LAW (specifically those things in contravention of law).

It's how serious that illegal act is. The "but they're illegal!" crowd expects all of us to want to punish them for that as if they've done something utterly horrible. What they've done is something we can forgive them for. It's not dangerous (only to white supremacists).

So, do you have any opinions on what might happen if/when Congress addresses immigration reform?

Amnesty. It was a mistake then and it would be a mistake now. Get ready to revisit this in another 20 years if Congress is foolish enough to do it again.

fines so severe that by the third incident the fine puts them out of business. Arizona is out of control, but they see no help from the Feds and are using the Swordfish mechanism for handling problems, attacking them with ten times the force necessary to get results. We had a house in Arizona once. We sold it because it became too dangerous to live there.

I don't blame people coming here for work for doing it. It's what I'd do if I were in their shoes and I freely admit that. It's time to focus on the employers who are hiring undocumented workers and make sure fines go from the slap on the wrist that they are to something much more serious.

If there weren't people here ready to hire illegals instead of legal workers, there would be no problem. For years the local growers around here never were investigated to see if they were obeying the laws, and they hired illegals by the thousands to pick their crops, drive tractors, trucks and work in the packing plants. Many of the growers have abused the system, and the workers big time, but got away with it. Last December ICE went to the biggest grower in the area and check their hiring records. Around 800 workers were found to have fake ID and the company was told they had to lay them off and that ICE would be back to check on them again to make sure they complied! In the past it was simply picking up the workers and sending them back to their own country, and in a week they were back and working for the same company.

been put out of business.

root causes is very much in order. I do not blame poor people for doing this in an effort to better themselves.
It also represents an extreme security risk having borders that are easily crossed. After all the histrionics carried on about 9/11 and terrorists, including what we're put through at airports, Al Qaeda has surely gotten the fact that if they want to get into this country, they can come in through the southern border with impugnity.

in Long Beach, California it has been a disasaster beyond belief. We now have iron doors securing our house and windows, a guard service, and a Glock 17A in the cupboard beside our hall entryway. All my neighbors have the same or equivalent. Prior to the rampant illegal immigration our neighborhood was a paradise. People didn't even lock their doors.

do you know that the criminals are "illegal"? do you demand their papers? they're fucking criminals, and you DON'T know.
i lived in california, too. long beach has its shithole neighborhoods, like many other parts of california. has been for a long time. there have been gangs of all stripes there, made of citizens and non-citizens.
thank god you're not my neighbor.
your post, and your premise, is pathetic.

provides. Gangs of them have diminished since folks stopped buying new cars and changing the facades of their houses, making them look different on the outside than the inside. I live in Los Altos 90815, still a nice neighborhood comparatively speaking. I share your thank God statement using the same contraction. My post is 100 per cent accurate. I have lived the nightmare.

to good versus bad. Is our immigration policy bad, in that it is horrendously flawed, unworkable, and often grossly unfair? Absolutely.

Are people who have been here, granted illegally, but for many decades, paying taxes, raising their children--after escaping horrendous circumstances or victimization in their home countries, BAD? Hmmm.

I would have to argue it is not that simple.

I see so much anti-immigrant rhetoric that is over the top (not on DU) that I see being against illegal immigration as racist.

I can see the economic of it.

I think we should be putting people on the path to citizenship. We have plenty of people who play by the rules so I don't see why Hispanics can't. I realize economic conditions in the U.S. might be better than Mexico but you have people from India, Afghanista, Africa,etc. who play by the rules and I think we can all agree Mexico is better than India, Africa (some parts) and Afghanistan.

especially the illegal immigrants, you get a bunch of people here slamming you for it.

I believe these people deserve opportunities here, I just don't think they should be shitty opportunities,(low paying jobs and no legal recourse when their employers exploit them). I know people who have immigrated here illegally, gotten jobs and their employers have refused to pay. For the most part they have been honest people. However, when they do a job and don't get paid for it, they have taken their compensation in other ways. One popular way I have been witness to, is the stealing of the non paying employers equipment. It's not as hard stealing bobcats and huge lawn mowers as one might think and there really is a lucrative black market for this equipment.

Did I mention that I have not one iota of sympathy of these non-paying employers?

I'm not in favor of it, but I understand it. I worked for Dept of Justice Executive Office for Immigration Reivew for four years so I saw a lot of the good and bad of illegal immigration. My biggest issues with it are the fact that illegal immigrants basically have no police or social protection and they can be a strain on the employment system and decrease the living wage in some areas. Then again, if I were living in a country which consistantly had a 30% unemployment rate like many of the countries these immigrants come from, I'd probably be here illegaly as well.

it takes jobs from Americans and it drives down wages along with many other social ills..

I can't blame someone who comes into the U.S. with or without documentation when all they're trying to do is find a way to support themselves and their families. If they weren't able to get work here they wouldn't come here.

We need make it so painful for employers who hire undocumentated workers that they'll decide it's not worth the risk.

And we need to stop pushing trade agreements that make economic conditions worse for workers in all countries.

Americans are employing millions of undocumented people in jobs where they are payed a pittance compared to what a citizen would make. These folks have virtually no rights as employees and are often taken advantage of. If they get sick they have to rely on expensive medical care that we, as tax payers, have to pay.

The reason they are here is because there is often no hope or way to survive where they come from. They are exploited by virtually everyone from the people who bring them here to the people they work for.

They are here. Twelve million strong. If they were offered a road to citizenship they would be paying taxes and the criminals that employ them would have to contribute fairly into our social security and unemployment insurance systems.

What is the point of calling this a bad thing? It is a situation that exists and needs to be dealt with in a humanely and cost effective way. Punishing people for being "bad" is expensive and useless.

They DID have better weapons than the native people
who objected to their illegal intrusion;
so here I am today, 300 years later, posting on the internets.

You're not crazy, you just don't understand how the world works.

agree with you.

I don't mind immigrants being here at all, they do a lot of good in the country and they get good compensation for it - it's a win-win situation, but they need to get registered and do it legally.

are not doing any good for the country?

You should be giving thanks before every meal for the exploited labor that provides you with the cheapest food in any western country.

these people's illegal entry into the workforce, I will gladly pay an increased cost for fruits and vegetables to attain them by other methods, or, stop eating them at all. Or maybe grow them myself.

You can refuse to pay for factory food. You could also work to change the laws in your community so that any company that is caught hiring an undocumented worker is shut down for 30 days. Just like a bar who serves a minor is shut down for 30 days.

brought forth that accomplishes this I may start voting again.

to the economy.

over, the more that stay and migrate to other industries, where they work for subsistance wages. And their staying takes jobs from American young people, who are AMERICANS! And who can't go to college because they can't go to work because the illegals have taken all the jobs. Let's just sign a piece of paper giving them part of the United States--for free! Then the rest of us can go somewhere else and have our culture go back to 1958. They should not be on Social Security. They are not entitled to benefits if they work in violation of the law!

but receive no benefits? That is what is happening now. You have your wish. :)

And in return, maybe we should stop raping their democracies and economies. What about that? Can you live with that deal? I'm sure most economic immigrants can.

not be given Home Loans by Wells Fargo Bank!

Middle class Americans are not going for the same jobs. If an American does not go to college, that still does not put them in the same labor pool. The illegals have hardly taken "all the jobs." Your reference to the culture shows what's really bothering you. The culture always changes; this has always been a land of immigrants.

working the stores. Go into a Target and see the same. Course, it makes no difference. As I said before, the US will be gone in 45 years. IMO. The Founders wouldn't recognize the place now. Half of Americans couldn't even read the Constitution let alone sign it. My reference to the culture? I'm supposed to pussyfoot around to make you feel more global?

Maybe you need to go work for AZ law enforcement. You'd be a natural!

Until the employers are penalized,imprisoned for knowingly hiring undocumented workers,this will just keep happening.I live in Texas and can only imagine what affect on civil rights this legislation would have here,where 45% of the population is Hispanic.No worries,though,as none of the good ol' boys would dream of pissing in their buddies Cheerios by penalizing them for slave labor.

As a Hispanic, let me say... Yes, your not alone.

I remember years ago, back in the late 70's. My family was the first Hispanic family to move into a small packing house town here in Nebraska.

The welcome we got from the community was not exactly warm. However, soon a few more Hispanic families moved in.. they all worked at the beef packing plant like everyone else. Soon, people got used to it, just because my dad was a Mexican was no longer an issue. He worked hard, did lots of double shifts. And he followed the Maddox philosophy of:



To keep us out of trouble, doing our home work, chores, and part to contribute to society.

The payoff for that effort, was respect from people who may have once saw you different when the culture shock first hit their tiny little community of farm boys.

However... in the early 90's... things started to change... soon all the white guys were getting other jobs around our industrial section of this state, and replacing them, was more and more Hispanic families.

The PROBLEM started for 2 key reasons...

1. Lots of young single hispanic guys moving in for the jobs, not just established family's
2. Illegals going where their friends and relatives were going for all that good money.

The main problem with the young single guys wasn't just the fact you had alot of farmers pissed off they were fucking their daughters, but when your young, you do those things that are fun when your young.. so you had your trouble makers... more often then not, the trouble makers were starting to turn out to be illegals. The crimes today, are also starting to be committed by smaller faction gang members from SUR13 and 18th st.

This makes me think back to a comment my dad made back in the mid 90's about the escalation in crime..

Something like... these fuckers need to go back to where they came from... they're giving us all a bad name.

For a while, I thought he was just joking and being sarcastic, soon I realized, he was being 100% honest.

Yes, I do realize all the angles involved here... You can't say just because they are illegal, they are criminals, not all youth are gang members, and many other twists you can toss on it... trust me, I fight with right winger racist assholes over these stereotypes all the time over on http://www.brownpride.us/forum/

But you can't deny the impact of having JUST ANYBODY cross the border. Obviously, the reason we HAVE a damn border in the first damn place is to keep the riff raff out. I don't give a damn what their skin color is, or what language they speak, if you come to America illegally, you can not be reasonably acclimated into our society if you are only here to reap the benefits without the repercussions.

Things are different in Mexico/South America for Hispanics that make some things abnormal in America more common, although still taboo in other countries. And I believe if you want to enter into America, you should first be required to get documentation showing you have been briefed on American culture, and society expectations.

If that doesn't happen.. animosity's between cultures are only gonna get worse.

Borders need to be secured, illegals need to be sorted out and riff raff sent back.

How to do that.. I don't know... or maybe I do know but I'm not sick and twisted enough to say it or wanna think it.

I just want things to be like they were back in the 80's... Hispanic's came here to raise family's and live the American dream, and people accepted that without the fear of illegals and gang members.

So much of our discourse (on this and many other things) is between people who aren't "of" the group they're discussing, and really have no idea what the members of that group want or think.

I have a question about the employer sanction route - if we really did ramp up sanctions on people/companies who hire illegal immigrants, do you think that it would make employers less likely to hire *any* hispanics? (Or any other immigrant group that can be easily "identified" by sight or accent.) I've heard/read that fake documents are relatively easy to create - they may not bear up under close inspection, but there's no easy way to check their validity, so I'd guess many employers may decide to just not take a chance.

What would be the answer to that? Some sort of technique for producing legitimate documents that can't be faked? Some central "checking" facility? Any of those seem invasive, and discriminatory, but I can't think of what else would prevent high employer sanctions from rebounding on legal immigrants. What do you think?

A few things need to happen.

You need to have an established plan for social integration taken care of at the borders with those wishing to LEGALLY pass through, and make the process cheaper for them.

If people who are illegal are mainly coming over for work.. well GOOD!! The cheap labor DOES help our economy because it makes products cheaper, and hey, whether they paid taxes or not on a paycheck or they're employers got some tax breaks, as long as they are taking that cheap labor money and pumping it back into the American economy, let em'... if you make it easier for them to do this, you have simply less illegals.

The problem is, there would be a risk of employers using this to their advantage to profit and basically kills jobs. So I think what we need to see is instead, a job classification system meant specifically just for migrant workers. Use that as a means of entry for illegals, require all money earned as an illegal (rather undocumented) worker be spent in America.

Face it, we live in a sorry ass classist society, and realistically, it's this same class bullshit that is needed to sort out just whom is gonna get what job at what pay and just whom should be able to use migrant labor.

2nd, you take that program a step further for those wishing to earn citizenship, and charge them a substantial registering fee for having to fill out the forms in America instead of their home country... in other words... tax the shit out of them for not having their papers in the first place. If they are serious about citizenship, they'll cough up the cash.

And 2. Bring home the troops and patrol our borders on the Mexican side. I know that's OCCUPATION in some people's minds, but I think the relationship that the United States and Mexico have is significant enough that full cooperation could be expected.

If my taxpayer money is going for troops, then I should have a say in what their mission should be... after all.. isn't it "THE PEOPLE'S" army?

I tell ya, the damn racist tea baggers might claim to stand for "FREEDOM & LIBERTY".

I think they are missing sight of something Democrats should be focusing on..... SECURITY.

And finally... legalize marijuana and tax the living shit out of it.

in both cases, it is "who" not "whom."

Excellent solutions, IMO.

that this is probably not a good time for a wave of immigration, what with high unemployment and all. But for if baby boomers are going to have any shot at retiring, we had better provide for a lot of legal immigration before too long, so that there is a population to support them. Some countries in Europe are doing this.

K & R, and I wish I could recommend multiple times.

and understanding. There is no black and white solution to this problem.

from coming here illegally. i choose to be angry with businesses that exploit these people by paying them less than they would have to pay anyone else so they can pocket more money. IF they had to pay immigrants the same as they would have to pay you or i then one of two things would happen.... they would still risk hiring illegals and pay them the minimum wage and the immigrant would be making as much as the rest of us or they wouldn't risk it and there would be no work for people without the proper papers.

I don't know why anyone would support an illegal act here. If illegals want to go through the process of becoming an immigrant, they should do it legally.

And I just want to let everyone know that I don't support the bill that's being debated in AZ right now.

process. But just because the system as is sucks and is dangerously slow is no excuse for people coming into the country illegally or overstaying their visas.

The one thing illegal immigration clearly shows is that we live in a great country that people want to live in. We should make it easier to do so legally, and harder to do so illegally.

that American corporations and sometimes Canadian and French ones have raped places like Haiti so badly that it's uninhabitable and the people need to leave to survive. We should be expecting a new wave from Honduras where we just helped legitimize a military coup government that is now killing people with impunity.

Ask most immigrants. They'll gladly tell you.

And this "great country" is a predator in Latin America and in the Caribbean.

Blaming undocumented workers for leaving their homes and coming here to work for crap wages is like blaming the guy whose house you burned down for sitting under your awning to get out of the rain.

Or only in quotation marks?

for hundreds of years. Do you?

You think we prey on other countries. I don't.

whatsoever.

of the United States in Latin America. It's not a thought, it's our history or would be were it over yet.

Because then you don't have to acknowledge flaws and work to fix them. It is also easy to say if you have never suffered or seen anybody suffer the effects of that predation.

I know we have flaws, but honestly. The propensity to think the worst of our nation and ignore its positive effects in the world, it's so obtuse.

If you want to wave the pom poms and believe that we are the "shining city on the hill" be my guest. The reality is that we have done, continue to do, and allow some very fucked up things to happen in other countries. We talk about how horrible China is and how Russia is a bully, when we have invaded 2 countries in the last 10 years and continue to utilize wage slavery to provide us with cheap consumer goods.

That is classic.

But, until then, the process we do have needs to be followed.

Deportation is not considered a punishment. You cannot get jail-time for being here unauthorized. It is not a crime. Calling it 'illegal' taints one's perception. It is closer to 'breaking the rules' or 'cutting in line'.

A loiterer an illegal stander?

Immigration rules are based on statutes.

Speeders are called speeders.

Loiterers are called loiterers.

People who came to this country without following the outlined procedure are called illegal immigrants.

than illegal immigrants.

It is not a crime.

The word ILLEGAL does not apply only to criminal law. It applies equally to civil law.

You prefer your term, I prefer mine. It is no different than the war on drugs. You cannot stop people from coming to this country or stop business from hiring them. The problem is not that is occurs, but that we try to call people illegal and deny them rights. It creates a sub-class of the population, a significant number at that.

We need to change our terminology and our immigration system to correct the problem. The people are not the problem and they are not illegal. They just came here by a way different than you and I. I was fortunate enough to come via birth canal, but I should be no more entitled to rights on that basis.

Again, the problem is not the immigrants, it is our collective racism, xenophobia and ignorance that is the problem. And all of those things are institutionalized, unfortunately.

broadly in the same class.

Penalties differ. Illegality does not.

No one can help you.

The penalty is deportation. Yet in the long run, that is impractical. Others just come illegally. Deported people can come back. They way to do it is to give them visas and allow them to come legally. That way they have the right to the same wages and will demand them.

The legal system just takes people who make a lot of money or are related to U.S. citizens. Investors. IOW, the rich whom DU usually rail against.

and bad land use practices; plus, it helps US businesses profit, at workers' expense

It is a bad thing. It is however another one of those "the horse is already out of the barn things". We are a nation of immigrants. We are also (or were) a nation of laws. How do you provide a path to citizenship to someone that has already broken a major law? There are ways to get in to America legally and granting citizenship or amnesty is a slap in the face to those who have followed the system.

I know it sounds harsh, but illegal means illegal. I know that's also an over simplification because there are major employers who "import" illegal aliens because they will do work that most people wouldn't do in the first place, for very little ching. Chicken Debeaking is not popular with the latte drinking set.

Yes, we do need immigrants but I think we have enough. I own a small landscaping company and all I can hire is legal Hispanics. They are great workers and I can't get whites to work. Well, I take that back. They will "work" if you start them out at $20.00 an hr. and give them a title like "Pointer" where they point to things that need to be done, but that's my job. Something I find interesting is Mexicans resent Hispanics from south of Mexico because they travel through Mexico illegally to enter the US illegally. Figure that one out.

There has been a reverse trend in immigration from a coming to work standpoint. There just aren't as many jobs as there were. There's an increase in immigration to sell drugs. We don't need that either.

The answers?

A: Deport any illegals we encounter. I don't mean go on a round up like Arizona, but make proof of citizenship imperative to receive any service. No POC, no driver lisc. No POC, no health care. I know deportation will be expensive but not nearly as expensive as paying for them to live here. I understand the frustration in AZ as the violence is out of hand as it is in other areas, but profiling is profiling.

B: Simplify the path to citizenship. Like any other government service, the red tape gets in the way of getting anything done. Government is not the problem as Reaganites believe. It's broken, inefficient government that's the problem.

C: Incorporate a path to citizenship in the H2b like programs.

D: Fine and imprison any and all employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants.

E: SECURE THE FUCKING BORDERS! Put non violent offenders in the CA AZ NM TX prison systems on guard 24/7 on guard duty. Make them really pay their debt to society. They need only be armed with radios to call responders to the scene.

I know it is a complicated issue because of human rights but it's another part of our system that's totally broken. The greatest presnit in history and his cohorts did NOTHING during the 6 years they held all offices and yet their supporters are the first to cry about our lax immigration standards. Those Al Caders have been creepin in here all those years through Mexico and they let it happen!

Oh, and one more thing. We should encourage Mexico to improve it's standards so it's citizens aren't compelled to leave. Mexico is a country with great natural resources, many of which are virtually untapped. Mexico has been for years what our country is becoming. A country with no middle or working class. There are a VERY FEW who are rich beyond imagination and the VERY POOR. That's it. That's why they want to leave. Their government is totally corrupt. I was in Nogalez years ago when El Presidente Gerald Ford was going to a summit. Three days before his arrival, the town was cleaned up. There wasn't a prostitute, drunk, bandito, or drug dealer in sight. Twenty minutes after Ford left, it was business as usual.
Those were a bad 3 days for me~

The big differences come in the solutions people are behind.

The appalling lack of solidarity of Americans with their brother and sister workers from elsewhere is coming back upon us in spades.

Stop blaming the people, capitalism is the author of our woes.

They played by the rules and came to this country legally. They don't approve of illegal immigration at all.

Bullshit.

Illegal immigration is a problem because corporations and republicans have allowed it to become a problem.

Quit blaming those that are poor and desperate. They are only doing what's best for themselves and their families.

This is why we have laws. Everyone individually doing what is best for them and their families is anarchy. In stable societies we have laws for a reason. One of those reasons is controlling our own borders. Are you seriously trying to advocate for anarchy here WRT immigration law? Or anarchy for some and laws for others? Because neither of those fits very well with America and its Constitution.

Sounds like, "I got mine, fuck you Jack."

Let me ask you this...

If you graduated from a University with a degree that you worked hard for, and were competing for a job with someone who just forged a diploma from your alma mater to make it appear that they earned it like you did, would you find that peachy keen, or might you resent the shortcut forger a little bit?

Secondly, that nationality, an accident of birth, should should in any way condition one's ability to work.

Workers gotta hang together or we hang seperately.

Utopian open-border sloganeering notwithstanding, you're not contributing much to this discussion.

You stated that your competitor had forged his credentials.

Now you would dismiss the idea of worker solidarity as utopian.

Shows whose side you're on, because that is the issue.

But illegals are not competing for the same jobs.

residents can no longer afford to compete (race to the bottom) for them.

now ask them that if they lived in abject poverty, and the only way to support your family was to cross the border ILLEGALLY to get a job and send money back, would they be willing to wait and go through legal channels.

most of us are concerned about the human rights of the individuals who are labeled as such however.

the US government militarizing Latin America and arming governments that kill their citizens like flies? Or, how do you feel about NAFTA?

I'm always amazed that people make a big deal about "illegal immigration" but never say a word about its root causes -- which isn't US immigration policy or porous borders at all. It's the continued predation on Latin American resources.

Undocumented workers are just one more resource of Latin America that the United States uses and abuses -- and then turns around and blames the people.

that force people off their own land and make them come here looking to feed their families.

Anyone care about that?

And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one"

I think your martyrdom is premature...

Many Du'ers believe that imaginary lines on a piece of paper holds much more moral weight than hunger.

The HORROR!!!

:eyes:

The facts are always almost identical:

1. A company looking to take advantage of people willing to work for dirt, and
2. A pool of people wanting said job for dirt.

Why is it some support people coming here illegally (and using our services) to get a below market job, but oppose sending this same below market job to this same person in their home country? I can understand supporting or opposing both, but will NEVER understand supporting one and opposing the other.

but of supporting other working people against organizations like Bechtel who screw them in Latin America just as they screw us here.

It's not that difficult to understand.

So, if they maintained similar (or better) working conditions overseas yhan they do in the US, you would support outsourcing????

My techie salary will only go so far!

:sarcasm:

I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

And realizing Mexico wants us to keep our borders open so their government can stay corrupt.

LOL

We need to stop worrying about the people crossing the border and spend more time focusing on how US policies affect immigration. A lot of posters in this thread need to think through this a lot more. The people crossing over the border are not, as one person put it above, 'riff raff'. They are people without opportunities who have families to support. They are people fleeing violence. They are people who have been threatened and intimidated for standing up for themselves in the workplace (how do you think our anti-labor, 'structural adjustments' play into this?). They are people who's livelihoods have been destroyed by United States agricultural and trade policies. Telling them to go through the legal channels is, frankly, ridiculous. The United States is not clamoring for impoverished laborers (not through the legal channel, anyway). These are facts, and if the left cannot stand up and show solidarity with the immigrants in light of them, what does the left stand for?

who come here to steal the "better life" of American citizens.

And they believe deportation and a hundred foot wall would work.

They have never put together that American Corporations, backed up by our military, have been sucking Latin America dry for centuries. And that most undocumented workers don't want to come here in the first place but have been left with no choice.

These are the same people who were outraged when American troops were not welcomed by the Haitian people after the earthquake when was what needed was food and medicine and doctors.

And so on.

If they were they would have offered more than an overly simplistic throwaway line and then waited for hours before even bothering to comment on any reactions at all.

They were just looking to congratulate themselves for being righteous. Popular, but at least most people here manage to do it by actually saying something, not posting bumper-sticker slogans.

Sad, really.

This is very illustrative, leftists, opposers of capitalism, automatically side with their brother and sister workers....

Just sayin'.

in order to migrate to a particular country, they unlawfully "crossed over."

They broke the law and continue to do so, and are even being aided and abetted by natural-born citizens.

Then there is the crazy US law that states 2 illegal immigrants equal however many natural-born citizens, thus defying the laws of math, among other things.

Illegal immigrants, for all that some argue they contribute, have placed a severe strain on social services all over the country.

So no, you aren't crazy as it relates to this issue. "Illegal" is also a synonym for "criminal" and, while I don't like the draconian law in Arizona, nor the treatment of INS detainees, I also don't like it that these people have decided to defiantly ignore immigration laws.

but i'm sure that you would never do anything deemed "illegal," because that would be "illegal." right?

Just as there are consequences for illegally entering the US if caught. What point is it that you're trying to make here? Is it that a sovereign nation should not be able to make and enforce laws regarding who may and may not cross its borders? Because I don't think you're going to find much in the way of precedent or support for that open-borders utopian fantasy in the real world...

who like to throw around their self-righteous bullshit on what is "illegal," while they too engage in "illegal" activity.

furthermore, the people living in fantasyland are the ones that think that we can round up every single "illegal" residing in the states to fufill their big deportation wet dream.

seems only those with brown skin and who speak a foreign language are targets of the anti-immigration crowd. So I feel the outrage is racist in origin and putting poor people in jail whose big crime is looking for work so they can feed their families is more wrong than the immigrants crossing the border illegally. The only way to stop it is to lean on the employers with heavy fines and jail time if needed. Yet, no one is willing to do that.

We need to stop routing progressive democratic governments as we just did in Honduras.

We need to stop giving murderers like Uribe the full backup of our military. There are mass graves in Colombia and even crematoria that our tax dollars likely paid for. Ditto for the butchers in Peru and the thugs Bush put in power in Mexico.

The United States makes living peacefully and democratically in Latin America as difficult as possible and then uses the refugees from its LatAm policy as scapegoats for its domestic policy. Yankee efficiency at its finest.

really need to change our policy in Latin America from the bottom up into the future for a real solution.

Current "laws" regarding undocumented immigrants can and should be changed.

It's happened before and should happen again.

Because that is *precisely* where we need to send illegal aliens.

those countries that US policy has screwed over most and most recently. That's why about a fifth of the population of El Salvador moved here during Reagan's dirty war there. Ditto for Nicaragua, Guatemala and Honduras.

These are not accidents. Maybe US corporations should be deported from those places so the people can stay home. Oh, and the Pentagon. Maybe US troops out there supporting brutal governments like in Colombia, should be repatriated to the US so the people won't have to fear being murdered in their beds and can go about living their lives.

I think you've got that whole deportation thing ass backward.

and urban industral centers alike in Mexico leading to wide-spread displacement and migration. NAFTA and Mexican Immigration http://borderbattles.ssrc.org/Portes/

and urban industral centers alike in Mexico leading to wide-spread displacement and migration. NAFTA and Mexican Immigration http://borderbattles.ssrc.org/Portes/

US intervention in those countries, as well as in Mexico, has made life for citizens of those countries extremely difficult. They come to the US because they feel they have no alternative and would rather face the dangers of migration and detention in the US than the poverty, lack of opportunity, and repression in their country, which has been enabled by US intervention.

People who think this need to be honest about what they are proposing. If we're going to make an effort to deport every 'illegal' immigrant, it's going to involve Gestapo tactics. Be honest about this. We are going to have to kick down doors in the middle of the night and take parents from children (unless you want to change the rules about children born here being citizens). It obviously will involve holding people in massive detention centers because it's going to be very difficult to just drop millions of people off across the Rio Grande. We're going to have to set up a transportation and holding system similar to what the Nazis were doing with European Jews. Be honest about it.

You are not thinking about the implications of your proposal. You want to force employers to pay for the deportation of immigrants. How do you propose we round these people up? A secret police force? Create the conditions where people feel they have to rat out their neighbors? Where are we going to take all these people? You say we should just dump them back at their country of origin, but there are millions of them. What kind of infrastructure do we need to create to detain and move millions of people?

No railroads, no prison cars. Hell, make the illegal employers spring for first-class one-way airfare with limo service on the ground for those deported for all I care, or private Lear jets (forcing them to use the company jets where possible would be extra sweet justice).

But likely does not have enough agents to go after all of the immigrants, thus follows the large number of them.

It's just not practical. Give people visas so they are legal.

Don't be glib about this. Think about what you are saying. How is possible to fly millions of 'illegal' immigrants out of the United States? How do you propose we catch them all? Do you think mothers should be taken from their children? What does it solve when the immigrants wind up in the same position that led them to cross the border in the first place?

What I'm getting at is I don't understand why people propose these ridiculous scenarios in which we just deport everyone en masse rather than seriously address the actual problem. People come here for a reason. How do the policies of the United States (in agriculture and trade) and the international organizations in which the US wields tremendous influence (the IMF) affect 'illegal' immigration? Why would we, on the left, choose to attack the most vulnerable people in all of this? It's easy to say, 'just fine the companies hiring them!' but if you understand the structure of the American economy, you should see why such a thing just isn't possible. The goal is to radically alter that structure!

where illegals would need to be deported. Trains run to some of them. Cars and boats can go to the rest. I propose no new infrastructure for this. Like I said in another post, force the illegal employer to buy the illegal alien(s) first-class one-way tickets to the destination for all I care. They simply cannot be permitted to remain here ILLEGALLY.

It's ridiculous to think deporting that many people would be an easy thing to do. How do you think the Nazi's dealt with a similar number of European Jews? They had to create an infrastructure for rounding them all up and moving them around.

Why do you want to go through all this trouble instead of fighting for a system that does not exploit and destroy people's lives? Why would you want to take people from their homes and split families and communities? They come here 'illegally' for reasons. Why don't we actually address those reasons?

including those hiring illegal immigrant day laborers (I propose $1000 per day) then we would not need to round up, kick down doors, or any thing else to deport illegal aliens. They would "self-deport" by returning to their own countries. I would also propose being able to turn oneself in at ICE and getting a flight back to the country of citizenship.
A lot of the posters say to crack down on the employers without thinking THAT through. No jobs = no money = no reason to be here and/or homelessness and starvation. They would either have to leave or go into the underground economy.

All of them at once - that will cause long term detention and give $$ to the prison industrial complex.

Or will any example of ridiculous presumptuous hyperbole do?

It is illegal. PERIOD. You break the law, you suffer the consequences. Tough shit and independent of skin color. Equality rubs both ways.

J

It is hard for me to see things in those terms. My guess is that if any of us were born in the same situation that the illegals were born into we would do the same thing they are doing. It is a human drive to want to better your circumstances. In a similar way the wealthy in this country do not want any of us to better ourselves at what they see is at their expense.

It comes down to being a decent human being and caring for people whether they were born on this side of the boarder or the other. The solution to the problem should be a win win thing not a win lose thing.

since that makes absolutely no sense.

I doubt very much whether there is ANY issue that only one person on all of DU would have a different stand; this is supposed to be a "left-wing" discussion board, and there are pro-life people, anti-labor people, anti-public education people, privatizers, corporatists, and all sorts of people who don't hold left-wing values.

I do not think "illegal immigration" is a bad thing. I think bad immigration laws are bad, and using "illegal immigrants" to push other political agendas are worse.

Because part of the reason we're having so much illegal immigration is due to the time it takes and other flaws built into the system of becoming a legal immigrant.

Furthermore, the ones we need to be going after on the issue of illegal immigration are the employers of illegal immigrants. Make their wallets scream, put them in jail and they will stop hiring illegal immigrants. This will lead to a drop in illegal immigration.

Unless the plan is not to let anyone in. Which is what it seems that many here want. It's kinda like GLBT rights, "I got mine so fuck you". That attitude seems to be working it's way from the right to the left. I can't believe how many posts I see on DU that say that, in so many words...

Every time I see a post complaining about immigrants, what I hear is "I am MORE entitled to this lifestyle than they are." No special reason given, it's just the run of the mill sense of entitlement and privilege based on birth-right.

There are ways to approach it and ways to exploit it. This new law, if Brewer signs or let's it go into effect without signature, makes it profiling. Arpaio has walked on the edge of laws already to harrass people and one truck driver was arrested who was born in Fresno. Remember too this is Arizona where we passed the bill that really is questioning Obama's birth certificate and calls Hawaii a liar. There are veterans who served honorably, one I interviewed on my show was actually decorated for heroism by President Clinton in Kosov that got deported for a bounced check.

They must be very passionate about these illegal people.

As it was throughout most of this country's history.

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It doesn't even matter.

They would not have all the jobs. That's just silly.

and whitecollar jobs that they through recommendation would control who was hired. It's happening right now in Longshore jobs.

Legal immigrants command the same price as natural born citizens. The need to stay below the radar is what keeps the wages of illegal immigrants depressed (which in turn depresses the wages of everybody else).

were allowed to come over and charge what they wanted for their services, they would soon control many labor markets.

Ergo, there would be no illegal immigrants. Comprende, amigo?