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Men have a deep and equal stake in preserving reproductive choice

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:44 PM
Original message
Men have a deep and equal stake in preserving reproductive choice
Edited on Sat May-01-10 09:46 PM by uppityperson
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jacob-m-appel/transcending-ovaries-towa_b_559843.html

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Rather than urging men to stand down, abortion-rights advocates should reach out to convince men that they have a deep and equal stake in preserving reproductive choice.

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Those who favor abortion rights presumably share my belief that fetuses do not possess "personhood"--that they are not meaningfully human. That is very different from declaring that fetuses are fully-realized human beings, but women should be able to abort them anyway. Defining abortion as a "women's issue" all too easily enables opponents to characterize the struggle as one between the "rights of the mother" and the "rights of the child"--which, to pro-choice thinkers, it most certainly is not. Often, this leads abortion-rights advocates to be perceived as agents of identity politics, as part of a special interest group (ie. women) promoting its private agenda. Rather than "winning" the abortion debate, efforts to tag abortion opponents as bigotted against women merely cloud the underlying issues. For example, the proposition that it is sexist for states to pay for Viagra but not for abortion, which one hears all too often in liberal circles, sounds speciously appealing, but is actually rather reductive and shows a stunning inability to grapple with the ideology of abortion opponents. (If one believes abortion kills babies, as some folks sincerely do, of course the taxpayers shouldn't pay for it.) I can think of hundreds of powerful reasons why the government should pay for abortions--but the frequent claim that it's sexist to pay for ED drugs, but not pregnancy termination, or even women's contraceptives, is so deeply illogical and philosophically simplistic that it actually adds to the challenge of making the case for public funding.

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So why should abortion rights matter to men? The most obvious and dramatic reason, although likely not the most persuasive, is that the lives lost through illegal abortions will be of our sisters and daughters and partners. I have often heard that interest described as "secondary"--after all, some naysayers ask, how can one compare a woman's interest in her own life or health with a male relative's interest in her wellbeing? The reality is that many males do value of the lives of their loved ones, and particularly their daughters, as much as their own. Needless to say, so do women. To put the matter more bluntly: I know many men who would gladly suffer a slow death themselves if it could prevent their wives or girlfriends or daughters from succumbing to septic shock on a mattress in an underground abortion clinic. Anyone who argues that men don't merit an equal voice in the abortion debate does a grave disservice to these fathers and brothers and partners.

The second reason that abortion is a men's issue is that the entire sexual revolution, from which boys benefit as much as girls, relies heavily upon the right of pregnant women to terminate unwanted pregnancies. Couples, both single and married, would risk intimacy with considerably less frequency--and would deny themselves one of life's greatest pleasures--if they knew that the outcome might be a child that they had no desire to bear or raise. Personally, I would never have intercourse with a woman unless I were highly confident that she would terminate a pregnancy that we were not both ready for. If the law were ever changed to prohibit that option, I doubt that I would have sex with anyone until I was prepared to start a family. Recognizing that no form of birth control is ever foolproof, not even the rhythm method, I imagine most intelligent, responsible men and women, if denied an opportunity for legal termination, would make a similar decision to forgo certain forms of sex. In fact, many abortion opponents relish the prospect of rolling back the sexual progress of the 1960s and 1970s. Pro-choice women would do well to emphasize this to their lovers. These women could take a page from Aristophanes, whose play Lysistrata relates how the women of Greece deny their husbands sexual privileges until they agree to abstain from warfare. If pro-choice women consistently refused to sleep with anti-choice men, or even men who were indifferent or who voted for anti-choice candidates for non-abortion-related reasons, they might be stunned to discover how many new recruits entered the abortion rights movement. Incidentally, if you are single, looking, and reading this, I urge you to add "Pro-Choice Only" to your next personal ad....(more@link)
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Let me put it this way:
It is about something general - personal choice, or freedom.

Your body, your choice. Something which I used to think most progressives believed in across the board - from a woman's right to choose to your choice on many other things.

But over time I have seen it all whittled down. The whole idea, right to choose, is under attack from both sides of the aisle.

Nanny state to puritan state, seems both sides want to tell others how to live.

Either you are for choice or you are not. And if you are not then at least have the guts to say it and admit you think others should follow your beliefs and have their choices limited based on your own personal beliefs/ideals - and admit that you think we need to tell other adults how to live and what is best for them.

Abortion is but ONE area of personal choice. If you are on the bandwagon for personal choice get on it for the whole ride, and not just for a single issue.

Either you believe in choice across the board or you don't.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. No laws or overly restrictive ones? Do you seriously see this in a dichotomous way?
Edited on Sat May-01-10 09:59 PM by uppityperson
No restrictions on food, medicines? You should be free to chose anything at all? No mandated education for young'uns?

No, there are shades of grey.

Do you have comments on the article, on men having a stake? Did you even read the part I posted?
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Yes, I read it, yes there are gray areas, but....
I see many people who want to deny adults many other choices - like where to eat, drink, etc.

The core value I walk away with is - Your body, your choice.

When do we decide to restrict that? And who gets to decide that? And why in some cases and not others?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. would not have sex if abortion not an option... bullshit. and to suggest
"deny themselves one of life's greatest pleasures--if they knew that the outcome might be a child that they had no desire to bear or raise"

troublesome for me


that being said, i have always felt the male voice belonged in this issue. maybe not the ultimate in decision making, but i do feel they have a voice in the debate.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I grew up during the time when this was how it was for many. Not bullshit, well, it was
It led to all sorts of inappropriate attachments. If you were hormonally drawn to someone, wanted to be sexually involved, you "fell in love", became emotionally attached beyond what would perhaps have been healthy.

Not having sex with someone, unless you were sure you would be able to work together to raise the child, or to have abortion be an alternative otherwise, yes. This is real thinking.

"The most obvious and dramatic reason, although likely not the most persuasive, is that the lives lost through illegal abortions will be of our sisters and daughters and partners."
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. i can see a lot of reasons for choice to be necessary
and maybe because of the time i was raised, with contraceptives and never in the position, and a confidence that if need be i would raise on my own.... it is hard for me to think in that manner

but then, i am not much into abortion. never having to make the choice easy to say. always having safety nets, easy to say

that is the nifty with choice.

i dont have to be into abortions, to believe choice is necessary
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Men are half of the voters.
Like it or not, they do.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. of course that is the logistics of it. but
Edited on Sat May-01-10 10:15 PM by seabeyond
i think we are talking more a philosophical voice. reality is the vote ergo a voice.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Wow that's a minority view. I think just about every politically active woman I've ever read...
says men should just stfu.

Doesn't make much difference to me, since I know that women are every bit as capable of fucking shit up as men are. Just interesting to see a minority view.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. i am a believer
that any baby created is 50/50. belongs to both. and responsibility of both parents to be adults.... an equal voice in all things. even while the woman is carrying, still his baby. so his consideration needs to be there. his feeling *gasp* and thoughts heard.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Pfft. We have no feelings. Except for bewbies. We love bewbies. And steak.
Edited on Sun May-02-10 01:06 AM by BlooInBloo
Wonder if there's a way to combine the two?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. well, there is that thread of man boobs in the lounge.
bewbies be bewbies.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I don't say men should "just stfu".
First of all, as in the article, "The most obvious and dramatic reason, although likely not the most persuasive, is that the lives lost through illegal abortions will be of our sisters and daughters and partners." Men should have a voice in keeping choice legal. They are involved with the process of becoming pregnant, and in being a part of the world. Their friends and perhaps family risk losing lives, or health, without having the choice be legal.

Secondly, on the personal 1 to 1 basis, I don't think men should "just stfu". The woman has the responsibility of making the choice about her pregnancy. If she wishes input from the involved man, or from some other man, that is up to her. If she doesn't wish input, THEN yes, all of them should stfu. I would talk with my partner, and my best friend, but do not think that should EVER be mandated. Like my spiritual beliefs, it is up to me to share or not.
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. Never let the state have control of your body,
is the principle involved.

One they have it, they can order you to have no children, or to have 20.

Your life, your body, your decision, not theirs.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. Paragraph 1) okay. 2) brilliant. 3) complete and utter fail.
Good enough to merit a recommendation, but every adult must take responsibility for their own reproduction. Only an idiot gives that power to another under the "I'm highly confident she would terminate a pregnancy" excuse.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. You mean the one where wouldn't have sex as often?
I am always curious as to what decade was formative yrs for people (mid-teens-mid twenties)? Was it after abortions became legally accessible? Before oral contraceptives became available for other than married women with several children?

So me, it was prior to that. We were always aware that if we became pregnant, we would most likely end up with the guy we were having sex with. Or else be sent in disgrace to an unwed mother's home, excuse me, to visit relatives in another state for the school year. It impacted not just whom we had sex with, but our feelings about that guy. Yes, had sex with guy who was not long-term appropriate, and became unduly emotionally involved with him.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Yeah, that too.
Edited on Sat May-01-10 11:04 PM by lumberjack_jeff
In my adult life abortion has always been safe and legal - especially in my state.

We need a male oral contraceptive.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-10 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nobody should be forced to become a parent.
Children need good, willing parents, not incompetents who were dragooned into the job.
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