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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:18 AM
Original message
Greek uprising.....Is this what governments and the corporations that own them fear most?
Edited on Sun May-02-10 09:19 AM by marmar
from the BBC:



Greece must make 'great sacrifices' for bail-out deal



Greece says it has agreed a deal with the European Union and IMF to rescue the nation's embattled economy.

Prime Minister George Papandreou said Greece would have to make "great sacrifices" to avoid bankruptcy.

The value of the rescue deal will be announced later. Some details of the austerity cuts agreed in return for loans have been revealed.

There are fears that the Greek debt crisis could spread to other countries using the European single currency.

On Saturday, police again clashed with demonstrators in Athens who were protesting against government measures.

'Evident' anger

European finance ministers will gather in Brussels later on Sunday and are expected to approve the bail-out, which is which is designed to prevent Greece from defaulting on its enormous debt.

The rescue package is expected to amount to as much as 120bn euros (£100bn; $160bn) over three years. ........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8656649.stm




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secondwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. the Greeks pay a lot of taxes, and they expect services in return. n/t
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. The Greeks are actually notorious for not paying taxes. Taxes may be
high but that doesn't mean Greeks actually pay them which is partly why the country has a financial crisis.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. The problem is the Greeks DON'T pay taxes (or at least not enough to support level of spending).
One of the first riots was in response to the govt indicating they will be cracking down on tax violators.

Greece = huge social programs with no revenue to pay for it.

Pretty easy to figure out you will go bankrupt if you try to do that.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Front page of the NYT yesterday spelled it out...
They operate as an occupied country and still have mistrust of the government due to centuries of colonial rule...
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. You can't get out of debt by rioting.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Hello, again.....This could get interesting.
:popcorn:


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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Not really. This is straightforward.
They either pay their debts or they go bankrupt, and Greeks will like that even less than austerity.
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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. If you do what you have always done you will get what you have always gotten
We know they have to pay the debt.
The Working Class in Greece has nothing left to loose or to gain.
I am sure Workers have worked hard in the last few years as they have always.
If mistakes were made, were by the rich parasite class.
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. 40% of the country is on the govt payroll.
And not paying taxes is a national sport.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
3. Its about time everyone in every country does similarly.
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. and be promptly labeled provocateurs if so much as a mailbox gets scuffed... nt
Edited on Sun May-02-10 02:47 PM by MisterP
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. Jamaica is also about to explode
Teachers will start a two day strike tomorrow.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
40. Oops, wrong place. Hi malaise! n/t
Edited on Mon May-03-10 01:33 PM by Subdivisions
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. It's obvious what they must do now. Cut taxes.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. The riots are ridiculous.
Certainly, people have a right to be angry. There is legitimate reason to be fire-out-the-ears pissed off.

...but it's not going to change anything. They're broke. They have only two choices:

1. They do what is necessary to pay off their debt, including cutting services and paying higher taxes.
2. They go bankrupt.

There is no middle road, no third way, it's pay off the debt or go bankrupt. That's it.
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yup, riots just run up the bill even more.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Yup, and if they go bankrupt..
...they won't be able to afford to keep the level of services anyway. One way or the other, the cuts Greece is going to have to make are draconian.

The rioters are just going to have to accept that Greece overspent for many years. The bill finally came due.

We are not far behind ourselves.




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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
37. gee, to whom is all this money "owed," since all the world's supposedly indebted
& "overspent for years"?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. yes, they must pay the banksters. that is the most important thing, that the financial class
& those who live on their "investments" must have more money, even at the cost of the welfare & lives of the innocent.

good to know where people stand on this.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I'm sorry, I don't want to be rude, but do you understand what happened?
Do you understand what will happen if Greece doesn't pay its debt?

Do you know where the "banksters" get their money?

A lesson in life: If someone is going to get screwed, it's never the rich. They have a permanent golden parachute.

The "banksters" get their money from the working people. If Greece defaults on the debt that they owe to the "banksters", then the "banksters" will suddenly find themselves over leveraged, and will then in turn default on their own debt... causing a nasty cycle, not unlike one domino falling after another. Then one of two things happens. First, the people who gave money to the "banksters" - their life savings - goes up in smoke because the Greek's refused to pay their bills. Second, the government(s) step in to bailout the "banksters" to save the money people placed in their trust. That just means that the tax payers of the government(s) then have to pay the debt that the Greeks owed plus interest, as the government(s) likely had to borrow money for the bailout.

That doesn't even touch the fact of what it could do to the entire Eurozone. No one knows how bad its going to be until it happens, but it doesn't look pretty.

So, I'd like an explanation as to why other people - innocent people who don't live in Greece and don't vote in their elections - should have to shoulder either the burden or the penalty of Greece defaulting? To stick it to the "banksters" who are still going to be sailing around on their multi-million dollar yachts, sipping on the bubbly, and smoking expensive cigars, while some poor or middle class sucker has to pay off a debt they had nothing to do with? We both know that's how this turns out. Or is it something more ideological? Should Greece default just to prove a point?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. "ordinary people who don't live in greece" will be slammed regardless,
already are being, in fact.

& as it was US, UK, French & German banksters primarily in the mix, have a bit more responsibility for the fallout of their binge.

you think if greece pays up you'll be spared? lol.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. I don't disagree.
That's why I advocate for responsible fiscal management and good governance.

I'm not particularly concerned for myself. Even if Greece totally collapsed, I'm fairly sure the impact upon me personally would be minimal. Hell, if the Eurozone collapsed, in the long run it might actually be good for the United States in some respects. (After all look at what we achieved after WWII as Europe was trying to recover.) A lot of cash will flow to the safest place it can find, and so far that's still the United States.

But I'm not really focused on what's good for myself individually, or my country, I'm speaking objectively as to whats best for the people of the Eurozone and Greece. Do you even know what it means for Greece if they default? It's not as if they can just walk away and go, "HA HA! Suckers! We're not paying you a dime!" That's not how it works.

Although, to be completely fair, there is a line of thought that says Greece SHOULD default. That'd effectively remove them from the Euro because they'd no longer have collateral with the European Central Bank. But that has the side-effect of destabilizing the Euro Interbank Offered Rate. The greatest danger, though is the domino effect it might have (primarily with Portugal, Spain, Ireland, and Italy), and the loss of faith investors will have in other Eurozone countries. It's a gamble.

However, the above is strictly from a Eurozone perspective. It might be a gamble, but it might also be worth taking. From a Greek perspective they'd be royally fucked. If they think things are bad now - default will be unimaginably worse. Of course, you could then debate: Yes, it will lead to a lot of short term pain, but it could also mean that that recover faster.

The problem with default from the perspective of both sides is that there are too many unknowns. That's why the Eurozone is trying to bail Greece out, and why the Greek government is trying to create some type of plan to pay down their debt.

------------

I still don't know why you'd advocate for Greece to default other than the fact that your an anti-capitalist, and want to see the system crash and burn regardless of the consequences. So why do you want Greece to default?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. first, i nowhere advocate for "greece to default". i advocate for ordinary people to resist being
forced to pay the cost for financial maneuverings which they had no role in creating, no input into deciding & in general, no understanding of whatsoever.

if that turns out to mean default, fine by me.

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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. The Greek Government...
...borrowed money, which is how they ended up in debt to start with. It has very little to do with financial maneuvering, it was just those maneuvers that ultimately drew attention to the crisis. They did not, however, directly create the crisis.

Certainly, you could argue that the Greek Government was corrupt. (It is.) You could argue that there was criminal mismanagement of the government. (There was.) You can also blame Greek tax payers who didn't want to pay their taxes. (Plenty of that, too.)

A lot went into creating this crisis. It wasn't some "bankster" in a smoke filled room - 98% of it was the Greeks and their government.

Should the Greek people hunt down the bastards in their government who put them in the position they now find themselves? Abso-fucking-lutely. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a revolution on part of the people to dramatically reform their government - their government is the main reason for the problem.

All I'm saying is that it doesn't do them much good to resist some of the hard decisions that will have to be made to pay off the debt. Is it fair? Well, to some - yes. To others, no. It's a shitty situation, and a lot of people are getting a raw deal. No one is going to dispute that fact. However, to my understanding, the riots are more focused on the anger at this or that being cut. They don't seem to realize that no matter what happens, whether they accept an austerity plan or not, that Greece is literally broke. They CANNOT pay for those things even if they wanted to. There is no money to spend.

I believe if the people focus on getting their government in order, and cleaning things up, making the tough choices required to pay off their debt, that within a decades time they can be bigger and better than ever. It's just going to literally take a revolution, not only in government, but in thinking. I think Greece can come out of this better than they went in - it's not impossible.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. goldman & other financial houses = also corrupt, & it is to those entities that a great deal of the
cash will ultimately go.

the people have no power to "get their government in order" without revolt & resistance, which is what i advocate.

greece is not "broke". the financial houses which run the world are actually "broke," & trying to shift that cost.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Let's be clear about what Goldman was accused of doing.
Goldman stands accused of speculating heavily in the Greek debt markets while at the same time helping the Greek Government hide its debt. It's unclear if Goldman actually made money doing this, and if so, how much money they made. It's also not entirely clear if it was illegal or legal. (That's a totally different question than whether or not something was ethical or unethical. Clearly it was unethical, but it can only be illegal if they actually broke a law.) There are investigations underway to determine the legality of what they did, as well as an attempt to uncover any other information that we don't already know about. One way or another, here or in the EU, you can bet Goldman will be in Court before this ends.

----

I think I should give you a glimpse into what a "Greek Bankster" is saying, and why he claims Greece should default:

.....

Greece is a country with rich, underlevereaged savers, underleveraged corporates and a healthy banking system whose government happens to have borrowed a hell of a lot of money. But the world has grounds to be scared: with rates at 5% and government debt comfortably above 100% of GDP, servicing that debt costs 6% of GDP at the moment. GDP growth, in the meantime has not touched 6% nominal in a long, long time.

So here's the deal: No matter what happens, the debt is now at a level where its growth has reached escape velocity. Even if Greece were to run zero deficit, ultimately we are heading to default. We can default now or we can default later. Is that a big deal? Frankly, no. 75% of the debt, probably more, is held externally. If JGBs fail to pay coupon, that's a disaster for Japan, since 95% are held domestically. If GGBs fail to pay coupon, it's far less catastrophic. For the debt-deflation spiral to start, you need the debt to be internal.

With an alleged 216 billion held by foreigners (plus the recent 8) the contagion risks mainly lie outside the border! Even the banks who are in the news for holding all those ECB-funded GGB's aren't as long as US banks are long Treasuries, for example, though they would probably have to be restructured. Basically, the economy is paying 5% or even 6% of GDP to service a debt whose failure will hurt three or four times more abroad than it will in Greece. Do I look worried?

Supposing we default, what will be left is a AAA credit here. Give it five years and a line will form to our door to lend us more. It would not be fantastic for us to default, granted, because at the moment we are in a virtual reality where a bunch of greedy foreigners lend us a fresh 5% of GDP every year on top of what they were lending us the year before. If we default they won't lend us again for a short while. During that period we will have to live within our means. That will be a haircut. But it won't be a catastrophe for Greece. Germany took a bigger GDP hit than that last year, for example, and so did the UK!

Indeed, I'm willing to bet Greeks continue to have good access to the international financial markets, and here's why: as I'm writing this, Greek shipowners owe some EUR 100 billion to the international banking system.

Even with the Baltic Dry somewhere in the dungeon, this debt is being honored and serviced. Greek companies will be just fine, basically. It's the government that is the joke here, not the country! Nevertheless, a sovereign default by Greece will set off a cascade. Italy has tons more debt than Greece and a much bigger proportion of it is held in Italy.

That won't be a picnic. It gets worse than that, of course. People like to talk about PIGS, but the real oink oinks of the past decade have resided in the protestant part of the world. The United Kingdom and the US have total debt of more than 400% of GDP. You can never grow your way out of 400%, it's as simple as that. And this concludes my first point: be careful what you wish for here, because Greece is a rich country that will mainly hurt others if it defaults. Directly (through the default) and indirectly, via contagion.

A default will have both negatives for Greeks (less money to spend) and positives, which don't concern anybody here....

The newspapers have us think that bankers were the winners. We did not do too poorly, but we are not the big winners. The big winners here are the baby boomers. That's because they have their name against some 80% of the value in all pension funds and insurance policies.

And if the banks had gone down, that's who holds their debt and much of their equity. Bottom line, had the banks gone down, no insurance product would be worth a penny more than the paper it's printed on. So basically, the 2008 bailout sacrificed business, i.e. our generation, but saved our parents. The US bailout was intergenerational transfer, pure and simple. Now, our parents did not have enough kids.

.....

Talk about the bankers is fashionable, but in the bigger scheme of things it was a side-show. It's pretty much the same with the Greek situation. Yes, we Greeks have been naughty. Yes, we are overindebted. Yes, we live above our means. But, much like the evil bankers, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Greece. That is my main thesis here. The Greek saga (for I refuse to see it as a tragedy) is all about saving the French and German baby boomers' retirement.

.....

The goings on in America, where nobody is thankful for having been "saved" and where the economy is suffering the result of a misguided, short-term decision may push the French and German government to say "the Greeks don't deserve a bailout" and allow their insurance behemoths to take the hit. But I would not bet on it. My money is that the baby boomers prevail again! Make sure you've covered GGB shorts by the end of the week!!! I, for one, hope we're allowed to default, and here's why: Once upon a time, Greece was a model small democracy. An extremely frugal government ran tight budgets and provided an extremely basic safety net, and truly threadbare services for a very low cost: Tax collected was minimal.

While tax rates may have been high, collection was virtually nil. A small oligarchy was the only source of capital and had the acumen, education and experience to deploy it as the country developed. Old families controlled the steel, cement, foodstuffs and construction companies that rebuilt Greece after the war. As recently as 1980, debt/GDP was at 30% and it would have been much lower were it not for the high costs of defense. When Greece joined the EU in 1980, all that changed. It was party time. Money that was sent to build the Greek infrastructure was funneled pretty much directly into the pockets of the oligarchy as well as the new Socialist oligarchy that emerged.

.....

The notion that Brussels will dictate to Greece terms on public sector wages and impose a May deadline are, frankly, comical. The government may like the idea, but the entire population will probably go on strike. Needless to say, Greece can pay. If the government chooses to freeze savings accounts it can pay the whole kahuna in one go. But the Greek people will refuse to take any hardship. This is a matter between some French and German baby-boomers, their government, and twenty Greek families who will happily take more. I hope we default and the country is freed from the curse of free money that befell it in 1980. Once our politicians have no more money to disburse to the oligarchs, we can start to be proud Europeans.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. nothing you posted has anything to do with what i posted.
"the Greek people will refuse to take any hardship."

this is crap.


unemployment currently at 13% in greece, has been rising since before 2005 (when it went from about 8% to about 10%). youth unemployment is over 25%.

last year bonuses reduced 12%. pensions were already "reformed" in 2008. inflated land prices, depopulated villages being bought up by expats,

ordinary greeks have been paying the price for their "betters'" games for years.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. You wrote:
goldman & other financial houses = also corrupt, & it is to those entities that a great deal of the cash will ultimately go.

the people have no power to "get their government in order" without revolt & resistance, which is what i advocate.

greece is not "broke". the financial houses which run the world are actually "broke," & trying to shift that cost.


You brought up Goldman, so I made clear what Goldman is actually accused of doing.

Goldman and other financial institutions are not responsible for the Greek Government taking on a tremendous amount of debt. You might say, "Yes, but they gave them the money!" This is true, and if not for Goldman the money would have stopped flowing long before it did - after all, they are accused of attempting to hide the debt for the Greeks.

You brought up revolt and resistance, and earlier in the thread I pointed out that the Greeks are revolting and resisting the changes that are necessary to pay off the debt. In fact, my post that started this thread of the discussion clearly pointed out why it was silly. Why is it silly to revolt over such a thing? Because no matter what happens, whether they accept an austerity plan or default on their debt, they're facing cuts either way. There is absolutely zero way around it.

You brought up the fact that Greece is not "broke", but rather it is the financial institutions that are "broke." Obviously, they will be over leveraged if Greece doesn't pay off its debt. You loan out money in the expectation that you'll be paid back. If you aren't paid back then you're out of the money. They aren't trying to shift the cost, as you claim, they're trying to make that Greek government live up to the end of the deal that was made.

If you loaned out $5,000 to someone with the expectation that you'll be paid back, and the person you loaned the money too refused to pay you back - 98% of the people who did such a thing would attempt to get the other party to pay what they promised. The Greek Government may have been corrupt, but it is still nominally a democracy. I suppose an alternative is to dissolve the nation of Greece - literally dissolve the country as you would a business - and begin auctioning off its land and national assets to pay off its debt. Somehow, though, I don't imagine either the Greeks or you'd find that acceptable either. ;)

That was one of the reasons I posted part of what the Greek Bankster wrote who was advocating for default. It shows the Greek mindset. Some of it is understandable, virtually all of it completely logical though risky. Ultimately, though it boils down to the same mindset that you hate in Goldman and other such institutions.

Also, it doesn't matter if they manage to violently overthrow the government and install a new one. The new government would STILL be responsible for the debt, because the people of Greece are considered to be responsible for the debt.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. The Greek Bankster articulated what I understand is happening.
Thanks for posting it.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. amazing, isn't it.
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
10. I wonder how much of their debt is due to worthless paper sold by Goldman Sachs?
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Overspending and tax-dodging caused the problem.
Goldman Sachs just helped the previous govt hide it.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Conservative gov. sold billions in bonds to fuel a massive bailout of
Edited on Sun May-02-10 03:07 PM by JCMach1
the banks in the most recent crisis. Add to that overspending, corruption, and an inefficient government and well... you have the Greek problem. Funny how the conservatives scatter like roaches once they make the mess.

Meanwhile the EU plan includes... wait for it... more bailout funds for banks... http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-02/greece-bailout-plan-includes-support-fund-for-domestic-banks.html
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
50. "more bailout funds for banks."
it just gets better and better.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-04-10 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. Would laugh if I didn't want to pull my hair out...!
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. Along with the French, IMO, those Greeks know how to put on an awesome riot.
No BLUE PILLS for them! :P

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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Riots don't pay bills.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
19. Greece gets forced to buy arms they don't want from Germany and France.

Greece has the largest military in the EU! For no reason! Keep your eyes on arms sales.
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Oh Greece wanted them.
No one 'forced' them into anything.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. "greece" did, eh? no one forced "them"?
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. No.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
27. The poor are finally going to eat the rich.
Can't pay the bills or put food on your family? Eat a rich person.
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. The rich left Greece long ago.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Well no wonder the country has no money!
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. No, that would be because no one pays taxes.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Strange, I would think rich people would love to live in a country
that never pays taxes.
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ZeitgeistObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. A country that badly mismanaged
is a disaster waiting to happen. Why hang around? :)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. the rich own most of greece.
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KillCapitalism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
38. They should have just defaulted.
No one has the balls to do it though.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
41. The riots are a manifestation of anger. People are angry that they have to
suffer because of the actions of banksters and greedy/corrupt government officials. People just want to make a living and live their lives and now, because of the actions of others and circumstances beyond their control, they have to pay the piper. That our population is not just as angry as the Greeks baffles me to no end. I know I'm angry as hell.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
44. It can be an effective negotiating technique
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. Politicians should fear the people. In this country they have set it up so the people fear them.
Time for pitchforks?
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-10 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
48. It will happen here in the States. It's just a question of when.
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