Canada pursues sweeping trade pact with EU; “free trade-plus,” like a souped-up NAFTA.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/803085--canada-pursues-sweeping-trade-pact-with-eu

It’s been called “free trade-plus,” like a souped-up NAFTA pact, a deal to link Canada to a market with 27 countries, 500 million people and an economic output of more than $16 trillion.

With the goal to get a deal by next year, negotiators for Canada and the European Union are now into their third round of talks on an agreement that goes far beyond trade to touch issues such as intellectual property right, labour mobility and procurement.

“Tariffs are old news. Trade barriers now are overwhelmingly other things. That’s why you have to have trade agreements that deal with all the other non-tariff trade barriers,” he said in an interview.

At his stop in Brussels, the leaders are expected to deliver a strong statement that open borders are vital to helping the global economy emerge from the worldwide recession. “They will emphasize that protectionism is a major mistake,” said one source familiar with the upcoming Canada-EU summit.

Apparently one part of the deal, if it gets worked out, would allow Canadians to work in the EU countries and Europeans to work in Canada.

:woohoo:

And Greece shouldn't have really, because they lied to get into the EU, and then refused to enforce tax laws all these years while spending wildly.

They are only given enough to ensure the large EU nations don't get effected, while doing nothing to actually help Greece.

There would be no crisis if Greece wasn't stuck in the EU. Shared currency will always create winners and losers. The EU is not willing to use the tools of monetary policy to help individual nations.

They have vastly overspent, and undertaxed.

Yes, the crisis would be the same, in or out of the EU. Time for the Greeks to be responsible.

The EU refuses to use monetary policy to help them because it would reduce their wealth.

You can only pretend the crisis would be the same if you pretend monetary policy has no effect.

US states don't have separate currencies either.

Greece was in trouble before it joined the EU.

Monetary policy isn't at fault. Greeks are.

All while pretending that monetary policy has no effect.

The EU won't help Greece because it would have a cost for the larger nations. Which is why the EU is good for a nation only until they need help. At which point profits for the other nations becomes more important than the stability of individual nations.

Notice how their financial stability is irrelevant, only whether it will effect the other nations.

And the EU IS helping Greece.

The people of Greece are victims.

Are people in the US who are losing their homes victims? Were people hurt by the Great Depression victims? Were the people of Malaysia victims in the late 1990's?

Even though you got yourself into that mess.

That's what the EU just did for Greece.

How much are you helping me by causing a crisis and using it to make you my debt slave? EU interference means they don't even have independent fiscal policy as well.

If I accept your loan do I have to cede all control of my finances to you, like the EU demands? Sounds like monetary slavery to me.

Which is why Greece just got the largest ever bail-out given to a country.

There are conditions to any loan. One of them involves using it for the agreed purpose, and not spending it on wild flings instead.

Now I no longer need a bail out.

I'll take independent monetary policy over debt slavery any day.

Having escaped from massive inflation with your drachma.

Rather than accept debt slavery and misery it is sure to cause their people. They would either share in the burden of recovery or share in the burden of collapse.

Plenty of nations have had high inflation and recovered without joining into a shared currency. They just had independent monetary policy to allow them to shift their currency and price levels to the needs of a shifting nation. Instead of the EU where they maintain the currency for the benefit of the wealthy nations at the expense of the poor.

In fact they could dump Greece if they wanted to.

Greece got itself into this mess, so Greece will have to live with the consequences.

If Greece refuses their offer of debt slavery they have no option but currency revaluation. Kicking them out is sure to cause just as much if not greater devaluation of the Euro. If they get kicked out being able to set their price levels and currency value would help Greece.


How is it their fault when the only thing that would help them is being blocked by other people?

and now Canada wants to do something similar?

What the HELL are they thinking?! :wtf:

with it. Everyone else likes it, and wants to see more of it.

:eyes:

NAFTA for it. That would be silly.

The problem in the US isn't NAFTA or any other free trade agreement. It is our total failure to address post-industrialization in any way other than shaking our fist at the sky to John Cafferty and Bruce Springsteen.

:shrug:

http://www.originofnations.org/British_Empire/The%20Sun%20Never%20Set%20on%20the%20British%20Empire/The%20Sun%20Never%20Set%20on%20the%20British%20Empire.htm You can see by the graphic even as old as it is; that Canada has been considered part of it by others if not Canadians themselves

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/04/Queens-rep-suspends-Canadian-Parliament/UPI-44831228392970

The template being utilized for this trade setup between Britain & Canada has, at least for me, a collusive component to it. So with Canada hurting (as you've mentioned), Britain hurting econ-wise then why not proceed. I think the timing of this proposed pact is way behind the curve. And should have been initiated a long time ago. But as a practical matter that's part of the "how"...

The Sun Never Set on the British Crown, Empire call it what you will

The Empire has been gone for ages, and Canada is an independent country.

People here have been pushing to join the EU for years, long before this recent 'recession', since we are far more European than we are American, and we need more than one trading partner.

Britain doesn't use the Euro, and hasn't fully joined the EU.

Spare me. :eyes:

I'd know if we're an independent country or not. And if the British Empire died. :eyes:

And Canadians keep close tabs on the EU, and other countries. We have never been isolationists.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You were presented a link http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/04/Queens-rep-suspends-Canadian-Parliament/UPI-44831228392970 which clearly points to the contemporaneous, residue aspects of the empire you think is in some far off realm or kingdom centuries gone past; and has no jurisdiction over your own more recently. Matters of freedom are for some delicately balanced. To lend them the impression they are autonomous in-full. Disenfranchised Americans understand that most pointedly, my friend. That is if they've been paying attention. So it has to be easier for a Canadian to roll up here and berate everything America, her decline, and foist aspersion upon everyone else as being seriously out dated...

As an American, that is a level of comfort I am only able to aspire to

The elected PM dismissed Parliament...not the Queen, and not the Queen's 'representative'.

Canada is an independent country.

And I haven't seen any Canadians on here dissing the US. I've seen lots of Americans diss America though.

The topic here is a free trade deal between Canada and the EU. It has nothing whatever to do with the US.

Why didn't you guys ring up China? Wouldn't have gone so easy? You don't find a perceivable ease of transfer between Canada & EU? I do think you're remiss on from where that 'ease' has been cultivated and why. I understand the allure of the EU nestled amongst the baguettes, quaintest little back streets in the world, and social-democracy - but if I were the point person of a sputtering UE sitting at a huge boardroom table with a map; I'd suggest people start tapping their assets: all of them, even Canada

"I've seen lots of Americans diss America though"

Ah, got it, so you think you can do the same, again: whatever you say - cause lord knows we can't piss Canada off, and if you stick around here long enough you *will* see Canadians dissing America straight-up, its a very fashionable thing to do. The world thinks America is the most selfish nation on earth. But for Canada to initiate without an American component is to advance the causes of me-ism into a world that may well *have* to be,

But that's when lots of people see what other nations are prepared to do to maintain their economic viability - and to the people that become shocked or dismayed at what that might look like I say: Blame Canada ;)

We also trade with China and India. But a large part of our trade is with the US, and it's always been a dangerous silly policy to put all of our eggs in one basket.

I've never dissed the US, and neither has any other Canadian on here. What would be the point in that? Especially in a discussion about trade between Canada and the EU, which doesn't affect the US at all?

Should be re-thought to include re-write pursuant to what the world looks like more realistically = no more 'pie in the sky'. The mention as to financial reform is thus: in that without it very little will change regardless of either your or my opinion on the matter of sustainable longterm trade policy. It is folly to suggest by omission that America is *not* trading with either China or India, or a world landscape of trading partners

I didn't think I needed to list every country in the world that has trade with China and India.

And need to go back to the top of the OP for the memorable, slam-dunk tag line *at* the top of the article itself: "Canada pursues sweeping trade pact with EU", and if I thought riding a merry go round was the answer to these problems then I suppse I'd go find one and ride it - have a lovely evening

We have a trade deficit with almost every major industrialized country. The US trade deficit is ENORMOUS. We just haven't had any such luck with these agreements.

It seems like a one way street for us. A massive amount of goods and services coming into the US and many lost jobs.

Maybe free trade works for some countries. It definitely hasn't benefited ours that's for sure.

We signed a MFN trade agreement with China....boom...massive amount of goods coming our way, more unemployed.

We used to have a trade surplus with Mexico, now the deficit is in the billions and there are no signs of it abating and the amount of people unemployed continues to grow x(

Maybe it works for some countries and not others.

MFN status isn't remotely the same thing.

It works for all countries, but they have to be participants.

My point is that we have a trade deficit with every country that we do have free trade deals with (Canada, Mexico etc.) We even have massive deficits with the ones we don't have free trade deals with (China, Japan etc.).

MFN simply accords certain countries with trade advantages that they weren't previously afforded under US laws. I knows it's not a FTA.

The US imports $1.4 trillion worth of goods and services and we only export $994 Billion. The result is what you see today.

Do you think the US should sign more free trade agreements? Because the ones we have signed have devastated our employment rate.

Things that were made in the US are now made in other countries and imported back in. Jobs are lost. It's sad to see :(

What do you think we should do? Sign more FT "agreements"?

And you can't do that if you don't sign FTAs.

On the other hand, Canada and Mexico have big surpluses with the US. We have large trade deficits with those countries. As soon as we signed these deals, our trade deficits with these countries exploded and our unemployment has increased.

We can't seem to export more and that's why I said that perhaps free trade deals work for some countries and not others.

You've gained thousands of jobs in exports. Some states depend on selling to Canada to prosper.

Canada had a large trade surplus with the US long before NAFTA.

That can be measured by the overall balance of trade.

It's not just Canada. Every country we have signed agreement with has increased our imports while our exports have not increased nearly as much.

Surplus with Mexico? Gone right after the agreement. The US has been an overall net loser when it comes to "free trade"

That's why I said perhaps it works for some countries and not others. We import $200 billion more than the entire Canadian economy alone. The result of all these imports has been a nasty unemployment crisis.

And NAFTA has been around since 1988, first as the FTA and then as full NAFTA.

The fact you have an unemployment crisis now...the same way the rest of the world does...isn't connected to NAFTA.

Our current account deficit with the NAFTA partners is close to 100 billion dollars a year. We have lost, when you factor in spin-off and support jobs, close to 2 million jobs because of NAFTA.

And there are thousands and thousands of them.

Again you have to look at the overall balance of trade. Sure some people have benefited, but overall our deficit has only increased.

gain jobs. And your deficit has increased because of other factors.

Of course some people lose jobs and some people gain. My point is that overall the US has been a net loser as our deficit has exploded. You can't dispute the facts my friend. :hi:

been a worry to Americans.

Of course it's a worry when things that were made here are now made in other countries. The unemployed continue to suffer.

Things once made in Canada are now made elsewhere. The west in general has the same problem. It's a concern, but it's not unique to the US.

I'm not exactly clear what your stance is when it comes to the US. Do you think the US should sign more free trade agreements when all the evidence suggests that the US trade deficit has increased after previous agreements were signed?

What makes you think that suddenly the US trade deficit will improve with free trade when evidence suggests it has done nothing but increase our deficit?

But throwing up walls and becoming isolationist and protectionist will just make you a bigger N Korea.

We have signed agreements and it just hasn't worked for us. Why would more agreements suddenly work?

:shrug:

in which everyone else is moving away from nation-states and into blocks. Asia has one, there is the EU of course, and South America has one. The US has an FTA with small countries, plus NAFTA.

The solution is global trade, because eventually the blocks will join up as well.

Whether the US is willing to do this or not is up to you.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Outsource jobs to countries paying slave wages while the only people that benefit are the elite while they lay off more and more Americans.

Sad how some people support this. Franklin Roosevelt would be furious if he saw what was going on today.

Free trade has only benefited the wealthy.

How so? Why don't you analyze the current free trade agreements we have now? NAFTA has increased our deficit dramatically since 1998. The evidence suggests that more free trade agreements will only increase our deficit and put us more into debt just like past free trade agreements.

Look...I can see that you're a free trader and that's fine. But the US has to get the trade deficit under control and signing more free trade agreements isn't going to work and the evidence backs that up.

More free trade has increased our deficit substantially while other countries have benefited.

It works for some and not others. Not every country is the same.

It's up to you how to react to that. :shrug:

I wouldn't presume to tell another country what to do, I'm just happy Canada is looking at a deal with the EU.

The US on the other hand is NOT Canada as our deficit has only increased with every signing of free trade agreements.

I fail to see how signing more free trade agreements will remedy this when the evidence is clear as day. $1.4 trillion in imports and only $994 billion in exports and it's only increasing.

I'm just very pleased for Canada. Thank you for your good wishes.

The evidence is clear as day. Numbers don't lie. Ever-increasing deficits with every flick of the pen and it's only getting worse at a faster rate :(

We can see why people in other countries love them. They just haven't worked for us.

But I really don't see protectionism as a solution. Neither does Obama.

People are wary because overall the US has lost a millions of jobs and the trade deficit has spiraled out of control with every agreement.

Tell Americans that they should sign more agreements and they will laugh in your face.

I'm just happy for Canada.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

and Mexico.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.commerce.gov%2FssLINK%2FPROD01_006839&ei=iLfeS-2gOIzs9QS2oYnLBw&usg=AFQjCNGj1tl2JyONpainO44WfzwRqX4HdQ&sig2=EK6Qe27i3R1avFCsK8PxHg

• For the first time, the U.S. trade balance in manufactured goods with our 14 FTA partners is in a surplus. In the first five months of 2008, the trade balance in manufactured goods with our FTA partners rose to a $2.7 billion surplus, from a $12.3 billion deficit during the same period last year.

• This improvement in the trade balance is due to the increasing competitiveness in FTA markets of U.S. manufactured goods. Since 2002, FTAs have helped U.S. manufactured exports grow steadily, and at a faster rate than imports. Year-to-date through May 2008 (when compared to the same period of 2002), U.S. manufactured exports to FTA countries have grown 63 percent, compared to only 42 percent growth in imports.

• Our trade balance in manufactured goods also improved significantly with FTA partners Singapore (up $3.0 billion year-to-date), Chile (up $2.0 billion), and Australia (up $1.3 billion).

• In 2005, prior to the implementation of the Central American-Dominican Republic Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA-DR), the U.S. had a trade deficit in manufactured goods of $1.2 billion withthese countries. In 2007, after implementation with five of the CAFTA-DR countries (Costa Rica has yet to enter-into-force), the U.S. trade balance in manufactured goods improved markedly to a$2.8 billion surplus. Based on the performance of the first five months of 2008, that surplus with CAFTA-DR countries is on-pace to exceed $4.5 billion this year.

"We even have massive deficits with the ones we don't have free trade deals with (China, Japan etc.)." - Actually the countries we have huge manufacturing trade deficits with are precisely those with which we do not have an FTA, FWIW.