I just couldn't do it.

I flew into Boston last night after a long day on the road and as we rolled up to the gate the flight attendent announced: "We have a serviceman on board, back from Iraq for some well deserved R&R, lets all give him a round of applause for his service to our country. Welcome back xxxxx!"

The cabin broke out in claps and cheers. I couldn't participate. I just couldn't do it. I'm glad that whoever he was came home safe and sound, in one piece. I cannot cheer our soldiers. I cannot participate in the mindless nationalistic militarism. I am beyond despair over this war, over our failure to find any way within the system to bring this madness to a halt.

I just couldn't do it. What I wanted to do is yell out "Bring them all home now", but I chickened out. I couldn't cheer and I couldn't protest. To me that about sums up the pathetic state of our antiwar movement. Paralyzed until 2009? Is that it?

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3qcrdMeRYs

You'll be glad you didn't clap.

...

I'm sorry but this video just points out what war does to our soldiers. That soldier is a heartless bastard. They are fucking CHILDREN!

I ain't saying he's right, but he obviously hates being there.

:sarcasm:

...to be much of a movement to bring the troops home from Afghanistan. On the contrary, the line most often pushed by detractors of the Iraq war is that more attention should be paid to Afghanistan. Not that it would really matter at this point unless someone else was President. For now we're stuck with the botched policy.

But it's wrong to assume that everyone in the military is a heartless bastard. Living under difficult conditions, knowing that there are quite literally people trying to kill you, is very stressful and no doubt contributed to the attitude we saw in the video. It does not excuse it but its part of the motivation.

I've been embarrassed by the behavior of American tourists in Europe and the UK and no one was trying to kill them.

They were merely being inconvenienced by the reality that not all Europeans speak English and the difficulty of getting good food. I have heard Americans complain about Italian food and I've spent months in Italy without ever being served anything that wasn't delicious. I suspect the complaining Americans were just wanting burgers and fries, or perhaps Olive Garden food.

I grew up in a military family and in my experience young men in the military were like young men at college: homesick, often lonely, and somewhat immature. Just like college guys, some military guys act like dumb shits, wanting to spend all their spare time drinking or chasing women. Sometimes they get in fights and do other stupid stuff. But not all of them behave that way, or at least they didn't in the Sixties. Many of them were raised to have a strong enough sense of self that they didn't have to act out to show they were men.

but some people are just assholes.

BTW, wonder if this is what bringing to democracy to Iraq looks like ...

... then let it go.

I'm ambivalent about that.

begging like that is COMMON in the so called developing world

So is the fuck it they don't speak English so prevalent around Americans

'cause it doesn't.

I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech.

I bet that there were others who felt like you did.

I am confessing to my weaknesses. It is very catholic of me. My deceased lapsed catholic dad would understand.

Fear is a strong motivator and I have to keep reminding myself that many others feel this way also and it is ok to risk it. Remembering back to 2001-2004 time when I had to figure out whom I could have conversations with. Figuring out a way to be supportive of those in the military, yet NOT supportive of the occupation can be difficult. A friend's son just headed back for tour #3. I was hesitant to talk with her at first but she is very angry and scared about it. Just wants them all home. The kid signed up yrs back mid-clinton time, trying for retirement, trying to survive.

I doubt most, if any, of us could have done better at the moment, being tired and caught unawares. In the future, we may well remember the suggestion given.

I'd bet that most of the passengers were just glad this one guy was going home alive or they clapped and cheered out of pure herd instinct and/or politeness, not wanting to hurt the young war vet's feelings. If you had waited until it died down and then shouted, "Let's bring them all home safe, the sooner the better" I think a lot of people would have clapped and cheered you.


Of course, you might have ended up on the No Fly list. Probably better to keep your thoughts to yourself on planes these days.

I think we may have moved beyond that point.

Just kissing his wife may have gotten one man some prison time.

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=3143566&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

I was right in swearing never to fly again until airline conditions get rolled back to oh, say, 1965 conditions.

would have thought of it at the time. Don't you hate it when the perfect response comes to mind too late to use it?

Our problem is that we hate the war, not the troops. We hate what some troops have done, absolutely, but not the troops as a whole. We hate seeing the death count rolling up higher and higher and we want them all to come home safely and right away.

But as Warren Stupidity said, we hate supporting militarism in any way. Most of us don't fly flags or have the decals on our cars because it smacks of jingoism, not patriotism.

I only wish I had that excuse. The perfect response was sitting in ny head. I was afraid to act.

the only honorable thing a soldier can do is deserting. That's when he'd get applause from me, not in any other case.

Or anything else. The rest of the cabin responded to the cheery coercion? Goody. I would have been enraged.

Examine this guilt you're feeling. How much of it is anger that you were put in such a position? This war is hated by over 60 percent of the country. How dare they pull this shit?

They're doing their best to manage in a war that is not of their creation, that they know is bullshit. They still have to obey orders, and they're damn well going to fight to protect their fellow soldiers.

Blame Bush and Cheney, and the GOP and all the other chickenhawks that lied us into this war.

I fucking hate this damn war, and I have friends in the .mil who have been or are in Iraq. I would have clapped for that soldier.

I had the opportunity to preview this documentary at a fundraiser for its producers, "Soldiers Speak Out"

http://www.empowermentproject.org/sso.html


One of them said that she tries to initiate conversations
with soldiers when she encounters them in airports, often with a non-judgmental
comment. The result is, that some of these soldiers open up and really start
in with their feelings about the war--and it's not often favorable or pro-Bush.

shirts with Retired Air Force on it and I wore while travelling one day and had quite a few folks start talking to me thinking I was the one who is retired.

Well, I couldn't agree more with the previous post - I have YET to have had a pro-bush discussion or a pro-war.

This country is SICK SICK of this and it has to stop.

And I am sorry, I don't believe for one NY minute that we are 'defending' this country by being in Iraq. The ONLY thing we are defending is Dick Cheney's company and HIS oil fields for his rich cronies.

It doesn't matter that you didn't want to make a scene, be attacked, spoil his homecoming, whatever. Sometimes its important just not to go along. Maybe others noticed you, and suddenly discovered they didn't have to do it. Not going along with it is what we need more of.

even sorrier you felt so less responsible for their duty in Iraq than you feel they were.

Before the game started the announcer asked for a moment of silence for the latest Minnesotan who'd "given his life for our freedom". One of the friends who was with me got upset because I muttered "He didn't die for our freedom, he was murdered by Bush." I did notice I didn't get any dirty looks from the strangers around us.

"THEY'RE FREEING THE SHIT OUT OF US"

With bombs dropping from airplanes flying over who knows where?

most servicemen and women are kids - quite young - and it really isn't their fault. I go into mom mode around kids who are in bad situations. They're stuck there dying for someone else's paycheck. I'd want to give him a hug. Imagine what he's been going through.

signed up to fight and possibly die for you in ANY war, ANY time, ANY where--thank God there are people who are willing to serve, because I'm sure you would agree our national defense is vital. It's not the soldier's fault he served in Chimpy's war--he goes where he's sent, whether you approve or not. That said, I think your reaction is more of a distaste for the "rah-rah" aspect that sold everyone on the war at first. I feel that way myself. I never bothered with car magnets or "Support Our Troops" trinkets myself, and I don't worship the military, but then I am married to an Air Force officer, and to me, it's just his job--I am proud of him, but I'm not gung-ho into military pride.

and this nation allowed George Bush to continue to be President again in 2004, it doesn't matter what you think happened, even if you think he stole the elections, that man should not have been President if this was a responsible nation.

That young man has probably not seen his wife, children, or parents in more than a year. He may have seen awful things, lived through horrific fear, watched buddies die or get maimed. Maybe the applause is less of an endorsement for the war or the military, but gratitude that this young man will arrive home safely when so many others didn't.

I hate the war and the lying bastards who started it. But I would have applauded the soldier.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

But it wasn't about you...

I wouldn't applaud either. I don't like being coerced like that. How many of those people on the plane went along because everyone else was doing it? Typical sheep.

There is nothing heroic about this stupid fucking war. They are not fighting for OUR freedom. They are fighting for Bushco and their corporate sponsors to rape and pillage a country of its oil. It's too bad they can't all quit.

Ever cross your mind that some, or even most of them might have done so willingly and agreed with it? You're being extremely cynical.

This is for YOU, WS. :hug:

But ragging on these soldiers is pure bullshit.

Please don't applaud. Just sit on your hands. And those of us with family who have served and friends that have died there will ignore you.

know any soldiers at all. Gosh it must be wonderful to be so all knowing. I actually know several kids who went to Iraq. All of them 'in good faith', luckily none of them have gotten harmed, yet. They are all still rather confused about what the heck they are or were doing in Iraq. I am not convinced that getting a ridiculous hero's welcome is helping them to figure out what they got caught up in.

This really is not about that particular soldier, it is about the mindless nationalism that brought everyone up to cheer his journey. Why do we do that?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Seriously, why applaud? I'd just say "welcome home, glad you made it back" since to me that would be how I feel. Not praise but welcome home glad you made it back.

Did he shake his hand? Pat him on the back? Give any expression of appreciation whatsoever?

Or, is his angst a big front for someone who totally lacks the ability to distinguish the hardship put upon these soldiers from the hideous decisions made by this administration? My opinion is that he really doesn't give a damn about the soldiers at all. What he felt was peer pressure and he's asking us for validation for resisting. He won't get it from me; more to the point, anyone who shows blatant disregard for our troops deserves nothing but scorn.

I never saw him. He either boarded in front after me or boarded in back before me.

I was not asking for validation for my silence. Quite the opposite. I was actually confessing to shame over my failure to speak up. My intention, which by the way was obvious and which I have stated and restated, was to simply discuss the dynamics of such situations, to explore what is the best way to use such public exercises in militarism to help end the war. Perhaps the answer is that this sort of situation is inappropriate. Perhaps you are correct and at every such public herd-mentality warrior worship session, we in the antiwar movement should just join in and otherwise shut up. Somehow I don't think so.

but our sub thread was deleted........

:puke:

What are we? Your psychologists?

This went from thoughtful to ridiculous to absurd. I'm out.

You took the opportunity further down to accuse me of being equivalent to Fred Phelps. Your descent into mindless infantile insults does not make a particularly good case for whatever point it is that you are trying to make. On the other hand, the appropriate emoticon is an overwhelming, devastating response. Touche, your vomit face wins!

It wasn't because windmlls posed a threat. They didn't. It was because he BELIEVED they were ferocious giants posing a threat and defended against them anyway. It's not because Dulcinea was a real person. She wasn't. But he BELIEVES she is and protects her.

The novel ends with Don Quixote's total disillusionment, with his melancholy return to 'sanity' and renunciation of chivalry and honor, and finally, his death.

Such is the way of warfare since time began, I think.

This, of course, is one of the 'lessons' in Cervantes' novel. It's a 'lesson' every high school student should know.

Today, many people use the phrase "tilting at windmills" in a demeaning and condescending way. Many people call someone "Quixotic" to demean their efforts and beliefs. Most of the people who do this have never found their own courage or adopted beliefs worth defending - beliefs in other than what they owned, that is. Even a mad dog will bite the hand that reaches for its bone - but that's not courage. That's sociopathic.

We ignore and demean the ones we send to be warriors who return because they embarrass us and make it obvious we don't have courage - and, no matter how much we own, it'll never be as valuable as what they thought they were defending with their lives. I often wonder who's really sane. I often wonder who's richer.

It was about the massive level of discomfort I felt at being surrounded by mindless people applauding our centurions back from the occupation. I'm tired of this game. We've been singing God Bless America in a nonstop tapeloop since 9-11-01, it is time to wake the fuck up and figure out we are being used.

Fuck Bush. Fuck Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Cheney.

But these soldiers are serving in good faith. If you can't see that, well... too bad.

No I don't think that is true. Even with 60% wanting us out of Iraq, of that 60% I'd guess that less than 1/3 have fully accepted that this war was entered into in bad faith with deliberate fraud and with criminal intentions. We still have endless debates right here on whether we should get out or stay to 'fix the mess'.

I do not see why I should assume that all soldiers are serving in good faith. Some are and some aren't. At any rate, I certainly was not suggesting that I should have shouted out "fuck that rat bastard war criminal", but rather "bring all the troops home now". To some here that is 'despising the troops', not to me.

Keep in mind that I told you I understood your reaction completely.

So you understood, but?

I give up: do you applaud or not applaud?

If you applaud then I'll ask again, 'oppose the war but applaud the warrior', why?

I bet you think this song is about you.

You didnt want to clap, so you didnt congratulations on using your mind and making a decision about something and not letting others pressure you into it.

However it really wasnt about you, if others want to cheer and clap for service members back from Iraq and they choose to participate that is thier choice and thier perogative.

I think I probably would have done the same; I don't usually have the guts to say anything either.
I don't even stand for the anthem anymore at ball games. Fuck that jingoistic bullshit.

I'm sick of all that crap ... I hate jingoism, "patriotism" (see jingoism), religion, militarism and corporatism. It all seems to go hand in hand.

:crazy:

:+

I could neither go with the crowd in an act of mindless nationalism nor could I stand up and speak out. I deserve no credit for anything other than honesty here.

Why exactly are you "Thankful Everyone Else Cheered And You Didn't Shout Out Your Comment"?

You're entitled to your position as I'm entitled to mine.

'free speech zones'?

Like I said, you have your viewpoint and I have mine. Don't twist the premise into something it isn't, as if I inferred for a second that protests should be limited to being in some dark alley away from sight or something, or somethin far more dramatic than what I was saying. That's just silly when people argue like that.

But I do find it to be a distasteful premise to shout out protests during a returning soldier's homecoming applause. Now granted, you don't. That's just ducky. To each their own. But I'm just glad in the end you didn't shout such things in the midst of a joyous moment and that the other passengers did applaud his homecoming and efforts, and made him feel good. Nothin wrong with my sayin so either.

:shrug:

But in the midst of a returning home celebration, to break in with that thereby making the moment about the protester rather than the soldier, is a bit in bad taste. There is also all the other political connotations inherent within the premise being shouted that also brings a negative political tone in the middle of a feel good joyous occasion of one of our brave men or women returning from combat.

There are times and places for protests, but doing so to a soldier's face in the middle of his feel good 'I'm coming home safely' moment, is more than likely done in really poor taste and with really misguided intentions.

That's just my take on it. I couldn't even conceive of doing such a thing in that situation. I would've clapped since he's returning safely, and then I would've shaken his hand in respect. To each their own.

because I'm sure the soldier wants all his fellow soldiers home too, particularly in this ill-conceived war.


I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to privately say thank you to the solidier if I'd been there, on the other hand though, I've always been weirded out by public nationalistic displays toward soldiers and even flags.

After what each of them has been through there, they deserve nothing short of absolute praise, respect and joy from all that they meet, upon their return.

I am not being silly. What is the right place? Why are the daily events where the war and its consequences are manifest not the right place?

I don't believe that to be the case here.

'free speech zones', just what the RW would like, take it where no one will hear or see it. Letting go of the Catholic guilt thing isn't easy. Around here we just tell ourselves "shoulda, coulda woulda", and let it go, you know, so next time we might prevent the guilt by acting. I should add that it is a true struggle to go against the grain, so ease up on yourself.

if for nothing else, we should all be glad when any soldier comes home alive, hopefullly well, and hopefully never to see war again.

If there is ever a time to shout protests at the troops, it probably isn't when they're just getting off the plane stateside. Until I know what an individual has done, I hope I don't curse him in effigy, so to speak, when my main beef is with the men who sent him to kill and die.

You didn't spit on him or otherwise darken his little welcome, and you didn't applaud. That's cool. Not every service member's appearance has to be a protest.

Succint and correct!

"Bring them all home now" was the right response. It does not darken his welcome, it celebrates his return while demanding the same for all the rest still over there.

...and not some with-your-shield-or-on-it conditional that the wingers are demanding. Our troops are certainly not all angels--many have done terrible things, and not always just because they were told to--but bringing them home will help them to become ordinary citizens again. Then we can begin to heal them, if we have the courage and caring.

I'm such a people-pleaser, that I'd probably go along. Afraid of being ostracized. And, I sure wouldn't bring it up here. Good for you. Men I dated...relatives, and friends.... had been to Vietnam. My brother brought home a slew of pictures which gave the impression it was one huge outdoor party. It continued when he came home...the party that is. No one talked about it..even when guys he'd served with came to visit. They just got very drunk, and laughed alot. Later, when marriages, jobs, living..became a problem...it still was not discussed. It was talked around. To ask him what it was like...would be like asking a woman to explain a rape. No one ever said that, but you could feel it...like it was taboo, and even cruel to ask...especially when he withdrew...when the party was over. Years after that, I went to the VA hospital for AA meetings with a boyfriend. Again...the subject didn't come up. There was before, and there was after...but that time was blanked out of the chronology. The only thing discussed was the year, and places they were stationed. Like that told the entire story. Your conflicted feelings seem pretty normal to me...you may have picked up on the vibes....like I did, way back when.

I would and have done the same.

First it was dismaymal...Then is was disdain..

Always separate the warrior from the war...

who wrote a book debunking it as myth did extensive research and there was no documentation in the media or police reports. The myth didn't start spreading until years after the spitting allegedly took place.

When I first heard the stories about vets being spit on, I thought it was very odd that it had never been mentioned during the war. I read two good newspapers every day back then and watched national news, which was more news, less fluff than today, and reported much more on the war. I never read a thing about a vet being spit on, never heard it on the news, never heard it from the guys I knew who came back from Nam.

Hope this helps.

strongly about it..tell the flight attendant ..if you see a soldier on your flight , that you will be angry and upset if they make such a PA..

or when getting off..stop and talk to the flight attendant and tell them that it made you very angry..and you do not fly to hear that kind of propaganda on your flight!!

and follow up with a letter to the airline!!

tell them how upset it made you!!

tell them if they want to do that kind of crap do it on a charter..not on a open flight, or you will never fly that airline again!!

be vocal with paper and pen!!

fly

I was not angry and upset with the airline. I am angry beyond words (literally in this case) about this war, and I am disgusted with God Bless America knee-jerk nationalism, and I am upset with my own inability to act.

I should have spoken out. I should have cheered louder than anyone while demanding that all of our troops come home now.

(I keep having these experiences at Twins games) the ceremonial first ball was thrown out by a soldier who'd lost both his legs. The stadium went wild cheering him on and, I admit, I applauded him as well. But I couldn't help wonder how many of the people in the stadium would have kept cheering if there'd also been an announcement like "Oh, and by the way, your taxes will be raised so that this wounded vet and all the wounded vets get all the medical care they need and deserve."

Aren't we confronted every day by the nexus of the personal and the political? A poster up above declares that my moment of convergence was 'not the right time to protest' and I wonder why not? What is?

I've been to many official protests, which I assume is that poster's concept of 'the right time to protest', and I will go to many more, but each time I go I feel useless and silly. I am participating in a charade, in an ineffectual event that will not even be reported. It is a tree falling in the woods with nobody to hear it.

Perhaps it is exactly 'the wrong place to protest', the awkward personal public moment such as this airport gate event that is the right place to protest? Perhaps if we want to actually be effective we have to have the courage I failed to have to seize these moments, to act out in thoughtful and creative ways when the convergence of the political and the personal occurs?

I would've felt the same say. I would've certainly been glad the soldier was home safely too, but that mindless jingo-istic 'fightin' for our freedoms over there' sort of thing is just dishonest crap. Our soliders deserve better than that hollow rah-rah sh*t.

If you follow the thread, however, you'll see that the author is not conflicted at all -- he has strong negative feelings for these soldiers and Marines.

There is a huge difference between supporting the war and showing appreciation for those who've been thrust into battle.

Just about every day, one or more DUers post the death count for Iraq. I suggest you seek these out and tell the entire DU community that you just don't give a damn about these deaths and that you'd like those threads to stop NOW.

Not worth it.

You've walked right off the deep end on this one.

Applauding would have been like saying "thank goodness you made it home and were not one of the statistics of this war."

You can hate this war, but hating the soldiers is misplaced hate, imho. They are doing their duty. Despite what this admin and the right likes to say, they are not volunteers, not every soldier over there volunteered to be a part of Iraq. They may have volunteered to serve and protect this nation, but they did not pick the battle or choose the enemy.

I guess you haven't been paying attention to the stop loss policies and the extended tours forced upon the soldiers.

Those that have chosen to be a part of this war are the mercenaries that get paid small fortunes and have no restrictions to be in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you want to be angry and show disdain show it to them and the members of our administration that allow them to be there and pay with our tax dollars for our services.

Your story is a perfect metaphor of what is wrong with this illegal war, and the publics response.

The only ones who are making any sacrifice are the soldiers and their families. The rest of us sit on our fat asses doing not a goddamned thing.

Like clapping your hands, or not, is such a big deal. Really, thats the best we can do?

There is a tremendous disconnect from the experience of our soldiers and our ignorance. Having served multiple tours in the shit, and rotating back to the states, they are staring to feel alienated by our indifference here to what they are going through over there. Some are actually preferring to be amongst their comrades in arms, the only people they can identify with. Similiar things happened during Veit Nam.

We can be just as much to blame as anyone, all of us. As long as other people have to deal with it, we can remain fat and stupid.

part of a captive audience being told what to do - when I may not feel like doing it. Most people go along for whatever reason, but I can't and won't.

(For the record I would not have applauded - partly because I don't like being told to applaud and partly because I do not support this insanity. I'm glad he's home, but they should all be home.)

What are you doing about the 14 more of ours (and how many more Iraqis were killed?) to change the situation?

I'm suggesting that we consider using every possible opportunity to protest this vile war.

You've complained about being too chicken to protest, so this is it. Go on both of those threads and let the posters know that those soldiers and their deaths mean nothing to you. This might be your first step toward "significant protest." Maybe by the end of the summer, you and Fred Phelps will have competing picket lines protesting at the funerals of dead soldiers. How sweet would that be?

Nothing more needs to be said.

the situation and what I would. But, what keeps coming up for me is that those of us who didn't support mindless nationalism (which is good for neither the mind nor the nation) when I was in high school wore black armbands as a way of expressing our sorrow for all the dead in Viet Nam, all of them.

At first, just a few of us wore them but after a while you couldn't walk into any room on that campus without seeing them.

I wonder if that flight attendant would have made the same gesture in the same way if she looked at the cabin and there were black armbands sprinkled around her field of vision.

It's one thing to welcome someone home from a near brush with death. It's another altogether to use that occasion to aggrandize needless death and destruction, even unwittingly. :(

With everyone wearing everything on their sleeves wrists and bumpers, we really don't have an iconic emblem of our own. At best we borrow the peace symbol from the vietnam era, but mostly we just defer. We have all gotten corporate logo branded, why aren't we anti-war branded.

What occurred to me on that plane flight is that it is time to bring the antiwar movement out of the closet. Time to put it front and center in our daily lives. Perhaps challenging this little warrior-worship session would have been inappropriate, I've certainly drawn fire on this, but we need to move beyond waiting for washington, we need to move beyond the next near-useless protest march. And I know some of us here have been there for a long time. I salute our freeway bloggers, our code pink public nuisances, our many Cindy Sheehan's, determined to not let a day go by where they did nothing to end this war. I'm urging all of us, even the ones on this thread who have taken such offense at my post, to ask themselves every day "what can I do today to help end this war?".

and then have used those same people to stop anyone from objecting to their mendacity.

Let's come out and let's do it today. I respect our people in uniform enough to demand respectful deployment of their service and care when they come home. Something they are NOT getting right now.

/oops

of military action by using the soldiers themselves.

Many a right winger has told me that the troops are "mostly republicans" and I have wondered if that were the case, why would I even have to support them? If they are fighting for the Repukes only, I'd like to know that and not support those particular individuals.

And know the attitude of the guy - I would like to know whether he should be applauded or not. Was he over there fighting for freedom, defending America in his own belief even if that belief is silly or was he over there for the chance to kill as many "sand people" as he could (I've known of those types, too, and they don't deserve applause).

:hug: Troops Come Home Music Video 1991 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYHcY-oH12M

Good on you for not giving into the pressure to participate in the mindless nationalistic militarism.

The flight attendant put you in an very awkward position, and you handled it marvelously.

I wonder how many would have clapped if the flight attendant had introduced a teacher who was returning to the US after spending her time educating women in Africa?