One Way to Save the Wolf? Hunt It.

with their great big guns.

:eyes:

kill off a bunch of deer because they got so overpopulated they were running out of food.

those of us that actually haft to live with the wolves and bears in our back yards can finally do something to help slow the decimation of our newborn elk calves and our domestic livestock. between the grizzlies in the spring and the wolves all winter our deer and elk are now the ones on the verge of endangerment. both in and outside of the greater yellowstone ecosystem.
i know this won't be popular here on DU but until you have had to live with them in your neighborhood you really have no idea.

The elk population is soaring because of the lack of predators. And Texas has plenty of whitetail to send you. They get overpopulated here on a regular basis.

And all ranchers I know are not willing to give up one single animal to allow other species to live alongside their herds.

Do tell how many calves you lost this year.

so skimpy now. This is the first year in something like 40 years he hasn't gotten his elk. That's saying something. And no, I'm not a rancher or an apologist for ranchers, just a Montana gal who still has folks back in that state.

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_fed621c8-728e-11de-886c-001cc4c03286.html

And populations are huge in other areas.

And it looks like another predator has had much more impact.

Their population was estimated to total 10 million before European man arrived.

http://www.azgfd.gov/h_f/game_elk.shtml

When I visited Arizona most recently, I was amazed how many elk we saw just from the highway. And big, fat, healthy animals because there are few predators there. Mountain lions - gone. Wolves - basically gone. No brown bears there to speak of. But lots of elk for the real top of the food chain.

told than there used to be. My Uncle told me that they had a public service announcement recently to tell people how to act if they come across a mountain lion when they are out hiking because the population of mountain lions is way up in the western part of Montana. The service announcement said you should try to look big. Mountain lions are intimidated by large creatures and will leave them alone in most cases, I guess.

facts before posting please
start here http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/mar/27/elk-reproduction-woes-tied-to-wolves/ and here http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/bears_elk_research.html. just do a search for "wolf elk calf " and the info is available, these are the stats that show the bears and wolves in concert, as well as the other predators can do. folks seem not to understand that the wolf is another keystone predator, and when combined with in an area already dominated by grizzles the elk simply have no chance. as mentioned before, unless you are living with them in your neighborhood you have no idea.
also, if you have a deer problem let me introduce you to a new program here in wyoming, we call it the "wyoming wolf adoption and promotional program". as we seem to be quickly being over run by the dear wolf and they have become so populated here that they are now beginning to suffer death by mange and other diseases we thought it might be a great idea to spread the wealth and offer for adoption for the first 300 to inquire a wolf of their very own. simply come to NW wyoming or south central montana and ask a local ( they need not be a rancher as wolves have pretty well migrated to within miles of towns everywhere) and as quick as a wink you will have volunteers ready to help you pick the wolf of your choice , we will help you trap and cage the animal and get you sent on your way back home to texas. you have my personal guarantee that if you adopt a breeding pair you will not a deer population problem within a 5 year span. plus you have the privilege of reintroducing the wolf back into another native area.
as far as loosing calves this year, i am sorry to dissapoint you but i didn't lose a one, yep not one, reason being i am not a rancher, but i did play one on t.v. :)

"But scientific understanding of how wolves influence elk behavior is in its infancy, Cook cautioned: “There’s an awful lot that’s not known.”

I have no doubt until scientific understanding grows a little, the wolf will continue to be blamed, facts in place or not.

Another option is to bring some of our Great Pyrenees to guard the livestock. I have an abundance that I can place whenever you are ready. They fear neither bear nor wolf and are very effective in protecting their herds (or humans). We have chickens and coyotes in the forest next to our house, and we have yet to lose a chicken to one of the coyotes. Pyrs are used throughout Texas with great success.

I'm sure you are tongue-in-cheek when you suggest trapping a breeding pair. Wolves make wonderful companions, but you have to get them while they are young and really understand pack behavior. I have friends who have been very successful domestically with them.

Interesting about wolves. They were often spirit totems of some Native Americans. I guess they want their land back, or at least some of it.

wolves have a MAJOR size advantage of not only weight and girth but pack size as well. have you read what happened in Idaho.....
http://wolfcrossing.org/2008/04/17/wolves-kill-dogs-brutal-weekend-attack-leaved-familys-shaken-is-this-what-its-all-about-is-this-what-we-want-for-our-ecosystem/
how about this one :
http://www.pinedaleonline.com/wolf/wolveskilldogs.htm
here is another one in idaho
http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/news/story?id=2054720
even kalispell has a turn:
http://www.dailyinterlake.com/news/local_montana/article_f7371805-176a-5baa-8a0a-0ebecfa89419.html

and this DU post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7913789

folks here have been trying to use dogs of various breeds to protect their homes and property, when you have 7 wolves in your yard, even the great pyrenees has little chance.
you seem to think the wolf can be domesticated if gotten as a pup, attempts to domestic wild animals in general and keep them as pets is not only a bad idea, it usually ends in disaster and i would highly caution against it. if your friends believe they are having success, they will soon be in for a surprise much to the demise of the wolves i am afraid.
http://leerburg.com/wolf2.htm

personally i could care less about guarding the livestock issue, my concern is the diminishing elk and moose herds due to the introduction of the wolves in concert with the grizzlies. actually my comment was only partly in jest about trapping and relocating the breeding pair, believe me that your opinion would change on the issue if wolves were brought into your neighborhood, dropped off to run at will and you were told you could do nothing to defend your property from their presence. especially when after they have decimated your deer population by eating themselves out of house and home they turned to prowling around your front porch for a meal. as mentioned before, unless you have lived in their presence like we are forced to do here in wyoming, you would not understand. it's easy to sit a 1,000 miles away and tout how wonderful they are and have no idea what you are talking about.

Wow, that WolfCrossing.org is a fearful bunch. They are just pro-human convenience all the way.

Do you view all such magnificent creatures as "problems"? What is the long-term solution if part of that solution is that all species on this continent have a chance to survive in some of the habitat that existed here for them in 1492? How much more shall we fuck everything up? How good is life if there is nothing but busy breeding humans, genetically-modified food species, and concrete?

How do you think the Native Americans dealt with "the problem"?

Au contraire, I grew up with timber wolves, before all of them were killed here. My sister had a big dairy farm, so I do know a bit about wolves, cows, horses, and children living together in deep rural Texas and Oklahoma. My sister's family dealt with wolves not so much from fear, but from respect and awareness. Wolves run away when a shot is fired into the air most of the time. I saw that with my own eyes, more than once.

Coyotes have as many as twelve in a litter and there is nothing to stop them from overrunning, and they are much better survivors than wolves. They are everywhere here, urban included. Every place on the planet has predators, but none so selfish as humans when humans want to encroach. Humans don't want to negotiate ANYTHING. Having the privilege of being at the top of the food chain carries great moral responsibility for visionary stewardship. At least it does to me.

Great Pyrenees in pairs or more are extremely effective. Just their bark will keep most predators at bay. And they don't eat much. One of the chicken ranchers I know keeps about ten of them. Goat farmers here have big packs of them too. They are the best dogs on the planet in my book and would love your climate.

One of my friends has a twelve-year-old wolf she raised from a pup. He is completely awesome, though he is getting old. So many people told her she would have to get rid of him, but she didn't listen and lives to tell of it. He looks something like this.



Why don't you move? Animals need to live somewhere. Come on down to Texas and enjoy the economy and leave the wolves a place to be. We still have plenty of open cheap land, and since we have no statewide long-term land use plan, it's all going to hell anyway.

see all magnificent creatures as problems, that why i am defending the elk herds so vehemently here, i am not saying the wolves as a whole are bad, just trying to point out what can happen when man reintroduces a major keystone predator along side several others into what the wolf proponents considered a national park environment, and then could not for the life of them understand why after the prey was chased outside the boundaries of said park the wolves followed.
it was as if they thought the wolves could read the sign that said " park boundary" and would stop before leaving.
granted the wolf crossing is a radical bunch, and as a group probably have done as much damage to the effort to maintain a viable live and let live policy around here, but by the same token many of their reported facts are accurate, even if they are used by them in a poor fashion.
you ask How do you think the Native Americans dealt with "the problem"? what problem ???, when you have 8 states worth of area to roam over in the late 1870's where food was plentiful and natural elk calving areas were spread over a vast majority of the great plains area and lowland winters were not nearly as harsh as the yellowstone area there was no problem. but that was a long time ago and things have changed a whole bunch since then.
here is what we are seeing now


This cow was killed and the fetus ripped out of her body leaving the rest to rot.

this was 53 feet from my mothers front door, 8 days later we found 4 more just like this one.
the elk are taking a terrible tole between both the griz and and the wolves. how many keystone predators can one cram into an area the size of the yellowstone ecosystem and not expect something to go horribly wrong

But that is nature and evolution in action. More traumatic to see are pics of the aerial wolf hunt kills by those manly hunters at the real top of the food chain.

Now what's the solution I asked you for? How can two top predators coexist?

is Albuquerque Day Tea Party.

I strongly believe in guilt by associated links. That says all I need to know about you and your anti-wolf propaganda.

i went back to my first post and could not find any blogroll, did i go to far back ??
in any event i don,t think the tea baggers are to concerned with the status of the local elk population and it certainly was not my intention to try to include them in any way

Since Montana has the second largest elk herd in the US, one that outnumbers the actual humans that live in that state. I don't think that predation by wolves is making a huge impact.

But Montana ranchers and farmers, yeah, they hate wolves with a passion. But something they need to consider, the wolf was there first, not them, and frankly rather than conquering nature, man needs to learn how to live with it.

And the funny thing is, folks up in Montana get monetary compensation, our tax money, for the livestock that wolves kill. Even funnier, the livestock killed by wolves isn't that much in the greater scope of things, about thirty head of cattle a year, about fifty sheep a year.

But the reality is that ranchers and farmers simply hate wolves, damn near hunted them out of existence, and can't stand the fact that this noble species is actually trying to make a comeback in the states. Well, you know what, ranchers and farmers in Montana and elsewhere can simply go shove it. We need wolves in this country. The wolf once ranged throughout most of the US, and since its disappearance, deer have become a huge problem, causing wrecks, spreading disease, etc. We need the wolves to keep them in check.

Frankly, given the hyperventilating hysteria that has been put out there by farmers and ranchers in Montana, they are the last source I would consult concerning what to do about wolves. Oh, and before you get all on your high horse about being a farmer having to live with nature, etc., you aren't the only one, not in Montana, not in the United States. There are millions of us around the country and we don't go out and kill that which we either find inconvenient or outright hate, we learn to live with it and adapt. Perhaps you should do the same.

the very cockles of my heart with such a passionate response. unfortunately much of your response is both incorrect and shows a amazing blind side to what century we are presently living in.
lets see where to start.....lets start here.

you said
"I think that your real concern is for domestic livestock,"

i am curious how you came to this conclusion, i am not a rancher/farmer, i have not hunted for over 30 years and want to let it known that our native elk herds are in danger because we have an extra keystone predator on the scene now that along with the grizzly, mountain lion,coyotes and other predators the pressure on the elk has reached a threshold.
then you said:
"Since Montana has the second largest elk herd in the US, one that outnumbers the actual humans that live in that state. I don't think that predation by wolves is making a huge impact."

wow what a blanket statement....
please bear in mind that Montana's elk herd freely migrate to wyoming and idaho on a yearly schedule,depending on what time of the year you take your head count any one of these three states could easily fluctuate these numbers. now keep in mind these elk have calving areas where they come to give birth every year, a wolf does not need to decimate a grown elk herd to devastate it, all it needs to do is simply wait till a cow elk is bedding down to give birth and then strike. it can either end up with a newborn calf or a full grown elk cow or both. it does not take much imagination to see where this would lead.
also keep in mind the wolves are not the only predators to adopt this stratagem, the griz are as equally adept at this feeding style. and they are the other keystone predator to take a notch out of the elk population.

then you tried to make this point:
And the funny thing is, folks up in Montana get monetary compensation, our tax money, for the livestock that wolves kill. Even funnier, the livestock killed by wolves isn't that much in the greater scope of things, about thirty head of cattle a year, about fifty sheep a year.
try explaining this then-
http://missoulian.com/news/local/article_24fec5a8-018c-11df-bdbc-001cc4c03286.html
in montana alone they were averaging a domestic animal per day, and that does not even include wyoming or idaho.
not to throw your assumptions out the window completely but have you seen the compensation ratio that is paid out vs what it costs to raise an animal. someone in washington did not know their math.

ah and then you touted this jewel :
But the reality is that ranchers and farmers simply hate wolves, damn near hunted them out of existence, and can't stand the fact that this noble species is actually trying to make a comeback in the states. Well, you know what, ranchers and farmers in Montana and elsewhere can simply go shove it. We need wolves in this country. The wolf once ranged throughout most of the US, and since its disappearance, deer have become a huge problem, causing wrecks, spreading disease, etc. We need the wolves to keep them in check.
i don't even know where to start with this statement.....we now live in the 21st century, we know that in todays world that their range is essentially gone forever due to the expansion of people over the last century. the wolf could never be trusted to control the deer population as they once did because things have changed. we cannot go back to the 1860's nor would you want to. oh it's ok for you to set somewhere else and say " the wolf should be free to be as he used to" as long as you don't haft to live with the detrimental effects he also brings with him on the area. and now he is beginning to suffer from the sentiment that has been brought to bear, a whole pack dies due to mange, a disease virtually unheard of for years in this area.

:eyes:

Fuck the wolf hunt, and double fuck the wolf hunters..:grr:

the wilderness area to begin with, so why would this be an issue ??

ALL OF IT :evil:

Am in MT myself, and tired of the silliness of people who don't have animals that were native to their home areas there anymore.

and deer so they could bag them during hunting season. Maybe if you didn't do that the herds wouldn't come into your back yards making it easy for predators to pick off the young ones.

that the majority of the damage being done is in yellowstone park and the greater beartooth and bitterroot mountain range. on national forest their is no farming of any kind. believe me if you tried to grow alp alpha in yellowstone you would end up in a federal prison in a hurry

wolves at night. It's not coyotes. It's almost magical, especially when the moon is full. I'm glad I'm not there to witness this murder. The idea of bringing the wolves back was to bring back the balance of nature so that the hunters didn't have to go thin the herds of deer and elk. A pox on those assholes.

:sarcasm:

The wolves and elk seemed to "manage" very well on their own until people started hunting them.

Even before humans you had wide pendulum swings between predators and prey. If your idea of well management includes disease and starvation, then you might have something.

We impacted wolves and elk long before we started hunting them. Hunting is frankly the least of their worries. You, for example, impacted them by being born, eating food and drinking water.

Even if we all dropped dead tomorrow, they'd never return to what they were before we impacted them. Management is a must; methodology can be debated.

Wolves, Iraqis, Afghans...

Oh, don't we have quite the legacy. Why the hell don't we stop?