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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:04 PM
Original message
I remember when. . .
I remember when we here at DU condemned Bush's expansion of executive power, and rightly damned anybody who supported such an expansion.

I remember when we here at DU condemned Bush's creation of the category of enemy combatant, and rightly damned anybody who supported such the creation of such a category.

I remember when we here at DU condemned Bush's assault on civil liberties, and rightly damned anybody who supported that assault.

Now we have an Obama Supreme Court nominee who supported all of the above, so now suddenly it is OK to expand executive power, OK to unilaterally declare somebody an enemy combatant, OK to continue the assault on civil liberties? No, it isn't, and frankly to do so out of party loyalty is the height of hypocrisy.

There are other candidates out there who are staunch defenders of civil rights, who don't defend the expansion of executive power. I suggest that we let President Obama know that his nomination is not acceptable. Otherwise we're going to see these atrocities unleashed during the Bush administration engraved in stone, fixed for our foreseeable future, and our once great country is going to take one more step towards becoming a banana republic.

If it wasn't the right thing to do under Bush, it doesn't make it right under Obama. Stand for principle, not partisan politics.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. I remember the dark days when Bush was President and/or occupied the White House
I am INFINITELY happier now
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Do you think that we should continue his assault on civil rights?
Do you think that we should install a SC judge who favors expanded executive powers, enemy combatants and fewer civil liberties?

It is nice that Bush is out of office, it would be a lot better if we saw his policies discontinued.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yes, but that's not what is happening now
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Um, funny think happed with his AG
Seems rights are only rights some of the time for some of the people and Obama's AG says that might be ok.

No, NO! Not OK
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. One has to completely ignore the New York v. Quarle ruling to believe that
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. So then,
Kagan didn't agree with expanded executive power, didn't support the status of enemy combatant, didn't support the assault on civil liberties?

I suggest you do some more research on Kagan, seriously.

What's next, are you going to resort to accusing me of dirtying the liberal flag:rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. The misrepresentation of Kagan's position on this issue has already been exposed
Edited on Mon May-10-10 05:31 PM by NJmaverick
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. Umm, as a good historian, I like to look at the primary document, not a review of it
And having looked at the document in question, my assertion still stands. Hell, right out of the gate she is stating that such an expansion of executive power is simply a natural evolution.

"But at different times, one or another has come to the fore and asserted at least a comparative
primacy in setting the direction and influencing the outcome of administrative process. In this time, that institution is the Presidency. We live today in an era of presidential administration."

Better yet, she thinks it is OK

"More particularly, I argue that a statutory delegation to an
executive agency official--although not to an independent agency head--usually should be read as allowing the President to assert directive authority, as Clinton did, over the exercise of the delegated discretion."

And it only gets better. Primary documents, always go with the primary documents.
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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
92. Kagan is right though and it's not defending executive domination
Of Congressional power. Of course the President has direct authority over executive agencies. Are you saying for instance the President can't set the EPAs agenda? If that's the case then when Clinton was President the right-wing Congress would've controlled the EPA.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Well don't blame us because you set the bar so low.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
40. Keeping tripping people up with that bar of yours and the Republicans will simply
walk right back into power
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. And if we set the bar low enough no one would notice the difference anyways.
Edited on Mon May-10-10 05:33 PM by Forkboy
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. 99% of the people in this nation see a HUGE difference, don't fool yourself thinking otherwise
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I see a difference in many areas. I don't in others.
Edited on Mon May-10-10 05:37 PM by Forkboy
As long as we accept the idea that anything is the best we can do it IS the best we can do.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Just because we see a difference doesn't mean that we should fall blindly into line
After all, Obama himself stated that we needed to "make me do it" if we wanted to see change. Apparently he thinks he is tough enough to handle criticism, why don't you?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Nor should we turn a blind eye to those differences
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Never said that we should,
Again, point out anywhere that I said we should turn a blind eye to those differences.

Whoops, you can't. Another wispy strawman, blown off into the sunset.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. You didn't say it, rather you actually did it
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Again, you need proof to back up your assertions, and frankly you don't have any
Bye-bye, thanks for playing now, bye-bye.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. You are just fooling yourself if you think anything is different now.
Denial has been rampant on DU ever since the election.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. Yeah that has to be it, my damn eyes and ears are lying to me
:eyes:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. Glad to see you've finally admitted it. nt
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
101. some things are clearly different
whether those differences are big enough or if the differences are significant is another question. As bad as some here may think Kagan is, I seriously doubt that she is the equivalent of Thomas, Scalia, Roberts, or Alito.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #101
108. If she falls in line with their ideology
then she IS WORSE than they are.
We expect it from their side--we shouldn't have to accept it from ours.
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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #108
112. that's not the case at all...
A pro-choice, pro-gay rights, woman is nowhere close to Thomas or Alito.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. EXTREMIST!!!
:sarcasm:
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Agree. n/t
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. I remember when people seriously hated George Bush.
And weren't just posers who would be so intellectually dishonest as to compare him to Obama.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I remember when posters set up much more complex strawmen,
But this one is sadly, pathetically wispy.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. People who compare Bush to Obama can not and should not be taken seriously.
On any subject whatsoever.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. People who cannot acknowledge that 'good guys' screw up too should not be taken serioulsy
Obama, himself, said he would make 'mis-steps' and invited Americans to point it out when he did. So, why do you hate Obama?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. So, you are the expert? Or the decider?
My, I may faint
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Yes.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. LOL am laughing at whoever alerted
cuz I wanted that post to remain. Said so very much.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I'm glad we agree on that particular issue.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Quote me, anywhere in my OP, where I compared Bush to Obama.
Oh, yeah, that's right, you can't. I criticized Kagan, I suggested that we let Obama know our opinion on his choice, and I pointed out that if something wasn't during the Bush administration, it still isn't right to support it now.

Your thin, wispy strawman is blowing away in a gentle breeze. Say bye-bye to your strawman. Bye-bye strawman, bye-bye.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Quote me, anywhere in myresponses, where I said I was talking about you.
:crazy:
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Medal for courage goes to
someone else
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. If people want to play that game...
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Pointing out the illogical, inane, or just plain silly is not a game
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Dodging obvious implications is a game.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. OK considering dodging OP's remarks about what was said
:rofl:
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. I didn't.
See post #11.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Umm, you responded to my post,
Generally when you respond directly to a person's post, that means you're talking about, or to them. You know, Netiquette 101.

But hey, if you weren't talking about me, yet continue to respond to my posts not talking about or to me, fine. I'll just hold treat you the same way I treat those who come up and babble on to me about God and the FSM or whatever, harmless, clueless souls who have no idea what they're talking about, but who need to be treated with pity and compassion.

However if you want to have a serious discussion, talk to those you respond to directly and don't try to duck out with lame excuses when your strawman gets blown away.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. Speaking of posers, good to see your intellectual honesty on display.
Edited on Mon May-10-10 05:34 PM by Forkboy
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #46
118. Wow! A double, oxymoron in a single sentence.
Edited on Thu May-13-10 12:47 PM by Greyhound
Well Done!
:applause:

ETA; in referring to the poster to whom you replied.

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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. policies
The comparison is about policies, not personalities.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Same difference.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
65. really?
That is revealing.

So policies are not important. OK.

You are not supporting the administration by saying that, you are damaging it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
66. Only Monday, yet I'm pretty certain...
Only Monday, yet I'm pretty certain that will be the most stunningly stupid thing I've read all week.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. Already off to a bang too...
RIP WRP.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. LOL Was just about to congratulate you on an ingenious method to help clean up that oil!
Figure you decided this was a great way to have people throw straw at you. Brilliant! You are my hero for such a clever flushing out of the materials necessary to clean up a whole lotta crap.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. It's not a strawman until someone mentions "She who is without a brain" as a possible future pres.
n/t
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. Alas, if it were only real straw
But sadly, it isn't.

I would donate the couple of bales I've got stored in the barn, but I need them for the garden.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
59. Mabye we could have a big DU group-haircut and send it all to the gulf
:evilgrin:
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
75. .
Edited on Mon May-10-10 09:35 PM by Moochy
Zoot Alors! Le poseur!
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MIprogressive Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree 110%
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. I remember all that
and a time when objective, OPEN discussions of issues were always the soup de jour at DU

My dear, you and I seem to be getting long of tooth. ;)
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Autumn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. If we can remember "when", we are
probably too damn old. Sometimes I feel like a dinosaur. K/R
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yep, evidently logic is on its way to extinction here
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
16. Hey, put a "D" in front of anything and many will buy right in.
"Buying in, all the way."

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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Ah Forkboy this would be a sadder world without you...
n.t.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. Bingo K & R Stand for principle, not partisan politics
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
31. K&R
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
39. me too
K&R!
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
49. But We WON, We WON !!! - You Should Just Be Happy With That And STFU !!!
Apparently that is the new ruling philosophy here at the "Underground".

:puke:

I remember it as you do MH...

But now that we HAVE POWER... we must smash any and all that get in the way of HOLDING ON TO THAT POWER!!!

:banghead:

:wtf:

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Yeah, I remember that STFU line back in the days of the '04 campaign.
But it has become infinitely worse now that a Dem is actually in office. A real shame too, I miss being able to have discussions without being told to get into line every other post.

I think that the Underground's greatest moment of triumph, the election of a Dem president, is becoming it's greatest failure as well. A shame, a real shame.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. Interesting how you guys play both sides of the debate
although I am not sure what you hope to accomplish as it certainly doesn't enlighten an issue like REAL DEBATE does.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. And tell me, what do you know about a real debate NJ?
All I've seen you do is throw personal insults, ad hominems, set up strawman and go on and on all day about your fetish like obsession with some imaginary flag that you either have or want.

You wouldn't know real debate if it came up and bit you.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #61
76. Interesting how you think you are helping anyone's side with your posts here
here, as in at DU.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. We have power, yep
and the power must be used to round up all the ponies and banish them over the rainbow or something

:yourock:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #49
98. Or. conversely, we should always be miserable and be disappointed and
betrayed by every single move ever made by the President we allegedly worked so hard to elect!
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
67. either stop remembering, or stop making sense, dammit.
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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
68. Are there examples of her support for these positions OTHER THAN as when acting as an attorney
on behalf of a client?

Attorneys are employed to maneuver and employ the law AS IT EXISTS, not to lobby for the passage of laws with which they agree.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Umm, yeah, she wrote about this material in the Harvard Law Review
Back in 2001 shortly after Bushco's plans started to fall into place.

<http://mediamatters.org/rd?to=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.salon.com%2Fnews%2Fopinion%2Fglenn_greenwald%2F2010%2F04%2F12%2Fkagan%2FKagan-_Presidential_Administration.pdf%23page%3D68>

It's long, but an interesting and enlightening read.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
70. I remember when Bush had a 90 + percent approval rating
Which tells me that even a lot of "liberal" Dems can be spooked into fully supporting a maniac without too much difficulty.

So why is it so surprising to you to find some self identified.(We don't know who they are.), "lifelong liberals" on an anonymous website posting stuff that you say portray us as hypocrites?

Shit, maybe a lot of people just have a long enough memory to remember what it was like living under a president who was a maniac?

To see someone even try to compare this President with the last maniac who squatted in the White House is disheartening. I wanted to think that my fellow DUers had more sense than that.

Don
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
72. A great post ....
You say it all. Not only does Kagan support those policies, Obama got a Supreme Court decision early in his term that did set them in stone. I have written about it many times, but here is one more:

1. Torture is acceptable during interrogation.

2. Obama or a designated staff member may declare anyone an unlawful detainee, American or not.

3. For unlawful detainees there is no Habeas Corpus, there is incarceration without counsel or trail and the trials if they do come are by military tribunal.

4. Rendition of individuals is legal both here and in other countries regardless of where the other country stands on the issue.

I am ashamed to be thought of as someone who supports a pro torture and pro war crimes climate. That is not our way and it casually suspends us as signatories to the Geneva Conventions even though we were once instrumental in helping to craft them.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #72
79. As Solicitor General it was her job to support those policies.
Neither one of us know what she really thinks about them.

And, if her last confirmation hearing is any indication, we won't know anything about her at the end of this one either.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Umm, the trouble is she was writing in support of these positions back in '01
She published a long article in the Harvard Law Review that supported Bush's position on the issues I mentioned.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. I'm not a member of Lexis, so I couldn't retrieve the entire 2001 article she wrote entitled,...
Edited on Tue May-11-10 06:42 AM by MilesColtrane
"Presidential Administration", however several authors and bloggers have taken this quote directly from it:

“I do not espouse the unitarian (executive) position,..."

“President Clinton’s assertion of directive authority over administration, more than President Reagan’s assertion of a general supervisory authority, raises serious constitutional questions.”


Her statements on unwarranted wiretapping and defining enemy combatants appear to come from her 2009 confirmation hearing.

If you've got evidence that her positions on those policies were defined in writing before then, I'm all ears.

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. She doesn't reject it though however,
She simply argues that there hasn't been an effective argument presented for it. In fact on the first page of her treatise we find this:

"But at different times, one or another has come to the fore and asserted at least a comparative
primacy in setting the direction and influencing the outcome of administrative process. In this time, that institution is the Presidency. We live today in an era of presidential administration."

IE, it is natural that the executive branch expands its powers, natural, even right.

As far as your quote goes, here is the rest of the context it was taken from:

"I do not espouse the unitarian position in this Article, instead taking the Supreme Court's removal cases, and all that follows from them, as a given. I adopt this stance for two reasons. First, although I am highly sympathetic to the view that the President should have broad control over administrative activity, I believe, for reasons I can only sketch here, that the unitarians have failed to establish their claim for plenary control as a matter of constitutional mandate."

In other words, she isn't opposed, she simply wants a better argument made. Perhaps she thinks that Obama can make that argument(as he already is trying to, an argument which Kagan, as Solicitor General is intimately involved with).

She is open to, perhaps now even a willing participant in these expansion of executive powers. These indications of her true opinion, especially in light of the paucity of her written opinions, should send up some huge warning flares about her nomination. Frankly there are much more qualified, and more liberal candidates out there. There is simply no need, except Obama's personal preference, to install Kagan on the SC. It would be best to find somebody else, someone with a body of work that is well known rather than installing an unknown whose little written work that is available simply doesn't bode well for the control of an out of control executive branch.


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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Nominating a liberal with a proven track record would be wonderful and would certainly...
make us feel better, but such a candidate will be ripe for much bluster and election year grandstanding, maybe even to the point of his or her confirmation being scuttled.

Kagan seems to have purposefully flown under the radar her entire career for just this moment.

The fact is, she is the nominee, and she will be appointed.

Only time will tell if Obama is fucking us on this.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Oh please, if we continue to worry about elections, we'll never get anything productive done
Oh, wait, that's what's happening, and has been happening for the past thirty plus years. Worrying about elections, instead of actually doing the right thing is part of how we got into this mess that we're in.

We need to stand up, and have the guts to do the right thing, elections be damned. Otherwise, though we may win elections, we're going to lose our country.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. You seemed to have missed my point.
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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. well we do have to worry about Justice Kennedy....
Even Stevens was extolled for being able to get Kennedy as a swing vote. You have no concern over what happens if the "liberal" element of the court isn't joined by Kennedy?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #86
100. this is like saying people accused of drunk driving or child molestation
should never have a defense lawyer. It's failing to see there are always legal arguments to be made, it's the way the court holds that matters, but both sides do get to argue their point. There were lawyers who defended the accused at Nuremberg, were they evil?

If some lawyer wants to argue the constitution allows torture, let them have at it, fortunately they are not going to win. But there is nothing wrong with arguing the legal side.



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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #80
93. no she didn't...that "infamous" paper was written before
Bush even mentioned those policies. And they weren't the same policies anyway.
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. When you are posting about supporting ....
war crimes and crimes against humanity, "it was just her job" doesn't cut it. At the Nuremberg trials "just following orders" was not accepted as a justification for supporting or committing atrocities. One of the most important things to come out of the trials was that each individual is responsible for his/her own acts. In the course of doing your job if you were told to mutilate or facilitate mutilating a co worker or stranger would you do it?

If someone doesn't support a heinous action they quit their jobs. We are not talking about sharpening pencils here, we are talking about unlawful and inhuman actions. I'm pretty sure she supported them, especially as OP points out since she was supporting them in 2001 before it was her job. Wake up and smell the coffee. She is not a good candidate. People without balance or mercy are not fit to judge others or make decisions that affect the laws of the land.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #81
85. Your "pretty sure" she supported indefinite detention and no habeas corpus before then?
I guess somebody else signed her name to this letter protesting legislation that would block judicial review of such policies in 2005.

NOVEMBER 14, 2005.

DEAR SENATOR LEAHY: We write to urge that the Senate adopt the amendment of Senator Bingaman removing the court-stripping provisions of the Graham Amendment to the Department of Defense authorization bill. As professors of law who serve as deans of American law schools, we believe that immunizing the executive branch from review of its treatment of persons held at the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo strikes at the heart of the idea of the rule of law and establishes a precedent we would not want other nations to emulate.

At the Guantanamo Naval Base, the Government has subjected foreign nationals believed to be linked to Al Qaeda to long-term
detention and has established military commissions to try a small number of the detainees for war crimes. It is entirely clear that one of the Executive Branch’s motivations for detaining noncitizens at Guantanamo was to put their treatment beyond
the examination of American courts.

The Supreme Court rejected the Government’s claim in Rasul v. Bush that federal habeas corpus review did not extend to
Guantanamo. The extent of the rights protected by federal habeas law is now before the Federal Court of Appeals for the D.C.
Circuit. Another challenge has been filed to the authority of the President, acting without congressional authorization, to convene military commissions at Guantanamo. Just last week the Supreme Court announced that it would review the case, Hamdan v. Rumsfeld.

The Graham Amendment would attempt to stop both of these cases from proceeding and would unwisely interrupt judicial processes in midcourse. Respect for the constitutional principle of separation of powers should counsel against such legislative interference in the ongoing work of the Supreme Court and independent judges.

Unfortunately, the Graham Amendment would do much more. With a minor exception, the legislation would prohibit challenges to detention practices, treatment of prisoners, adjudications of their guilt and their punishment. To put this most pointedly, were the Graham Amendment to become law, a person suspected of being a member of Al Qaeda could be arrested, transferred to Guantanamo, detained indefinitely (provided that proper procedures had been followed in deciding that the person is an ‘‘enemy combatant’’), subjected to inhumane treatment, tried before a military commission and sentenced to death without any express authorization from Congress and without review by any independent federal court. The American form of government was established precisely to prevent this kind of unreviewable exercise of power over the lives of individuals.

We do not object to the Graham Amendment’s procedural requirements for determining whether or not a detainee is an enemy combatant and providing for limited judicial review of such decisions. This kind of congressional structuring of the detention
of military prisoners is long overdue, and it highlights the absence of congressional regulation of standards of detainee treatment and the establishment of military commissions.

Curiously, the Graham Amendment recognizes the need for judicial review of the determination of enemy combatant status, but then purports to bar judicial review of far more momentous commission rulings regarding determinations of guilt and imposition of punishment.

We cannot imagine a more inappropriate moment to remove scrutiny of Executive Branch treatment of noncitizen detainees.
We are all aware of serious and disturbing reports of secret overseas prisons, extraordinary renditions, and the abuse of prisoners in Guantanamo, Iraq and Afghanistan. The Graham Amendment will simply reinforce the public perception that Congress approves Executive Branch decisions to act beyond the reach of law. As such, it undermines two core elements of the rule of law: congressionally sanctioned rules that limit and guide the exercise of Executive power and judicial review to ensure that those rules have in fact been honored.

When dictatorships have passed laws stripping their courts of power to review executive detention or punishment of prisoners,
our government has rightly challenged such acts as fundamentally lawless. The same standard should apply to our own government.

We urge you to vote to remove the court-stripping provisions of the Graham amendment from the pending legislation.

T. ALEXANDER ALEINIKOFF,
Dean, Georgetown University Law Center.
ELENA KAGAN,
Dean and Charles Hamilton Houston Professor of Law, Harvard Law School.
HAROLD HONGJU KOH,
Dean and Gerard C. & Bernice Latrobe Smith Professor of International Law, Yale Law School.
LARRY KRAMER,
Dean and Richard E. Lang Professor of Law, Stanford Law School./div]
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #85
102. Tell me ...
Edited on Tue May-11-10 07:04 PM by gleaner
How many war crimes does it take for someone to be unacceptable. One, two, nine twenty? One should do it. And you didn't answer my question. If someone in the course of your work asked you to commit an atrocity against someone else either from a distance or up close and personal, would you do it?

Don't worry about my ideas, I'm clear. Take care of yourself and your own ideas. If you want to get semantic on me I will substitute the word "positive" for "pretty sure." I hope that makes all the difference in making her a kind person and an acceptable nominee. Like waving a magic wand isn't it? The words mean the same thing and she is still someone who supports torture and the conditions which foster it and who wants to shred the constitution. Let's divide it this way. You protect Obama, I'll try find someone who will restore our former way of life before George Bush and before Obama. He went to court and legalized all of this as I wrote before. He is worse than she is. They deserve each other, but the rest of us don't need either one of them.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. I get it.
Obama is a war criminal on par with Hitler.

:eyes:



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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. Your words not mine ...
I would never say such a thing. He is a bad president and he isn't doing much of what he promised but that does not make him Hitler or even comparable to Hitler. He made a bad choice in Kagan for the Supreme Court. Her ideas are not comfortable to contemplate and her experience is nil. No one seems to know a thing about her for the most part. That doesn't make her comparable to Hitler either.

This terminates my discussion with you. When you try to put words in my mouth and tell me what I am saying or thinking, what do you need me for. Talk to yourself if you want to, but when you do listen to yourself and think of the impression you are giving. It might not be what you want to present to the world. Now I am leaving the building. I advise you to act like an adult who can accept that people are entitled to disagree with you or you are not going to get very far in life.
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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #81
95. she didn't support war crimes.....
She never said anything about torture all she said was that enemy combatants can be held indefinitely if an independent judiciary determines through due process they are a threat.

Nothing about torture.
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #95
103. Disingenuous ....
But do you think it is fun being held in prison without ever knowing if you will get out, or even why you are there? Do you call being separated from your family and the life you knew without ever knowing what is happening without you gangs of fun? I think that counts as torture, unless you have ten or so specific physical acts that you define as torture and nothing else. Do you?

What do you think they did with the detainees while they were holding them without trial or civil rights, bake lady fingers for them? The information that has come out tells us that they were incarcerated that way to be tortured and they were. If Kagan is as smart as everyone says she is she had to know that too. Now what part of the Constitution do you want to throw away? That is a factor here. A definite factor.
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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #103
110. Kagan didn't say she supported holding people indefinitely
Without charges. Putting people in prison isn't torture because if it is we couldn't legally imprison anyone. Kagan said she supports indefinite detention only if they are shown to offer support to Al Qaeda by an independent judiciary.

The Constitution doesn't permit this? Are you sure you want to go all in on that?
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. I didn't support it when Bush said it...
I don't support it when Kagan says it. An "independent judiciary" could be a military tribunal which is held in secret without benefit of counsel and not a court of law. Last time I looked this was not Constitutional.

How do they have to offer support in your scenario? Is verbally enough, or do they actually have to take an overt action? One of the cornerstones of the legal system is that people are innocent until proven guilty, not as you say that they are held "indefinitely" without Habeas Corpus until an "independent judiciary" decides that they "offered support" to Al Qaeda. One of the detainees in Guantanamo came there when he was 16 because it was assumed by the military authorities that he was connected to Al Qaeda. He has been there for eight years without any kind of trial and without being granted access to counsel. One of the US interrogates admitted at a hearing that they had no evidence against him and that they had tortured him by threatening him repeatedly with rape and murder to frighten him into admitting what he was supposed to have done. He told them whatever they wanted to hear. The problem is, like most information given under torture it wasn't true.

The response of the administration was to throw out the reporters who reported on the prisoners at Guantanamo. Weren't they supposed to have been released and deported by now? Wasn't that one of Obama's promises early on?

I'm already all in on opposing Obama and Kagan. There is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant or little bit crooked. You are or you're not. If you want to count angels dancing on the head of a pin go for it, but I'm not about to. He is a bad president. He supports torture. Kagan does too. No matter how you twist it or try to change what she says it amounts to the same thing. Indefinite detention without Habeas Corpus because someone thinks you might be guilty is unconstitutional, immoral and for a Quaker like me it is an insupportable form of violence against the human spirit.

It is easy for you to be glib, because you think it can't happen to you here, but if you look across state lines to Arizona where people are supposed to be able to look at others and decide if they are here legally or not you can see how the idea of detention on a hunch can spread and grow. Didn't someone just die because of the Arizona law? His neighbor shot him I believe. They were arguing and apparently the shooter didn't think his neighbor had a right to his own point of view.

Funny how that works isn't it? I have said what I came to say, and I have said it over and over and it is not going to change. I'm outta here. You go forward and keep mulling things over until you find some point that you can rationalize to acceptability. Then show it to someone who is interested. I'm not.
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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. ...
I don't support it when Kagan says it. An "independent judiciary" could be a military tribunal which is held in secret without benefit of counsel and not a court of law. Last time I looked this was not Constitutional.

Bush admin. tribunals were unconstitutional because the executive branch was unilaterally doing it. It is Constitutional if set up by Congress and decided by the judiciary.

Article 1 of the Constitution gives Congress the power to "declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;"


How do they have to offer support in your scenario? Is verbally enough, or do they actually have to take an overt action? One of the cornerstones of the legal system is that people are innocent until proven guilty, not as you say that they are held "indefinitely" without Habeas Corpus until an "independent judiciary" decides that they "offered support" to Al Qaeda.

Offering support to Al Qaeda means material support not your strawman of some guy saying he likes Bin Laden...I never said anyone can be held indefinitely until an independent judiciary decides they are guilty of helping Al Qaeda neither did Kagan.


I'm already all in on opposing Obama and Kagan. There is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant or little bit crooked. You are or you're not. If you want to count angels dancing on the head of a pin go for it, but I'm not about to. He is a bad president. He supports torture. Kagan does too. No matter how you twist it or try to change what she says it amounts to the same thing. Indefinite detention without Habeas Corpus because someone thinks you might be guilty is unconstitutional, immoral and for a Quaker like me it is an insupportable form of violence against the human spirit.

Well you've misconstrued everything I've said so I'm betting you've the same with Kagan. If you bothered to look you'd see Kagan in 2005 drafted a letter opposing the very things you've stated.

Please show me where she has ever supported torture. Nixon was a Quaker too...so what?


It is easy for you to be glib, because you think it can't happen to you here, but if you look across state lines to Arizona where people are supposed to be able to look at others and decide if they are here legally or not you can see how the idea of detention on a hunch can spread and grow. Didn't someone just die because of the Arizona law? His neighbor shot him I believe. They were arguing and apparently the shooter didn't think his neighbor had a right to his own point of view.

Classic change the subject....When did I mention the Arizona law or that people can be held on a hunch...



Funny how that works isn't it? I have said what I came to say, and I have said it over and over and it is not going to change. I'm outta here. You go forward and keep mulling things over until you find some point that you can rationalize to acceptability. Then show it to someone who is interested. I'm not.

Hey, I'd say the same thing if I didn't have a leg to stand on.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
74. You have spoken a whole lotta Truth there -
I have been watching the turning of many DUers into "If He does it is OK" sheeple and it disappoints me, disgusts me, and discourages me.

I stand with you and with our principles.

His continuation of some of Bush's worst policies on civil rights has made me ashamed I voted for him.

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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. I'm not sorry I voted for him
He's a hell of a lot better than any republican.

BUT - I think this nation is in deep shit after a quarter-century of republican policy dominance. we need to get beyond that to address the problems.

In many ways I understand Obama's positions. He's the first African-American president. Those who oppose him have all sorts of litmus tests for him. He also was elected at a time when the political process has been poisoned by right-wing extremism.

so, those things... I understand, even if I don't agree with some of the things he's done.

But the issues surrounding the Geneva Conventions on torture and the rest of it... that's about who we are as humans in this world. Both the democrats and republicans have codified the worst actions of any sort of power as justifiable. I cannot accept that as a way this nation lives in the world. but I also think it's a harbinger of the decline in this nation that is fast approaching unless the twin powers of military and corporation are not reined in.

I also know I do not face the extraordinary circumstances that he does as the leader of a powerful nation with those with more experience in various areas giving me advice or providing information that is not available to the rest of us.

So, no, I'm not sorry I voted for him. I would do so again. But I am disappointed in many of the things he's done and think that it is acceptable and good to acknowledge those areas that are simply unacceptable - such as torture.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
91. The color of his skin does not excuse his
Economic appointments, which are furthering the ruin of the middle and the lower middle incomed class, and since African Americans fall into that category,it is especially shameful.

I never thought that I would live to see a black man become President. I was so proud when I voted for him.

But I also never thought that I would live to see the day when someone of African American ethnicity could sell out the middle class. His good buddy, Geithner, has brought tremendous ruin upon this country, and Geithner and Bernanke have far more to do about what happens to us as a nation than a President has.
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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #91
99. actually it was Alan Greenspan who brought tremendous ruin...
And then left Geithner and Bernanke the mess.

Yeah that stimulus package was not selling out the middle class....nor was extending unemployment.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #99
104. The advantages of the stimulus package
Will not be outweighed by the perpetual debt that this nation faces for the 14 trillion and counting that Bernacke has offered up to Wall Street.

And as much as this household has relied on unemployment, what is needed far more than unemployment checks is JOBS! Not short term jobs, but real jobs.

And those will only come to us when we have a President and a Congress who are not owned and totally controlled by the current Las Vegas-style Wall Street crowd.
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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #104
111. wow never thought I'd hear this on a liberal site.....
The cause of the 14 trillion debt isn't because of the stimulus package but big banks inflating interest rates. That stimulus package made it so many states didn't have to cut out half of their budgets and in many cases created jobs in the public infrastructure sector of the economy.

I agree big money interest is out of control but to say they totally control Obama is a little misleading.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #111
114. Google the terms
Edited on Thu May-13-10 01:49 AM by truedelphi
"Octafish" and "democraticunderground" and "Federal Reserve". And add in AIG, Goldman Sachs. Geithner helped the folks at Goldman Sachs and at AIG while using his power as Chairman of the New York Fed - he should have been put in the slammer for that, but instead he got a promotion - ie he now heads Treasury.

He and Obama have probably been friends all their lives. And Geithner only spent some six to nine months during his formative years inside this country, which is why, I assume, he sneers at Congress people that "Their government" doesn't have the ability to do this or the ability to do that.

Their is no monopoly on people of one political persuasion or another understanding this. You don't have to be living inside a Tea Bagger's tent to read about these things. In fact, just following Kucinich and his recent career in his position on the Oversight Committee in the House has helped me understand much of this.

Federal Reserve is so in bed with AIG and Goldman Sachs that it would be hilarious if not so absolutely deadly to any type of real recovery. At one point, Octafish had a very intricate chart detailing all the key positions of ex-AIG, ex-GS employees and which positions of power they now hold due to Bush/Obama appointments.

In the decade before the economic collapse of Oct 2008, Americans had been taught to live on credit. Over the nineties, our jobs had been sent overseas - and the notion that "education' will help is a myth. People who had dual master's degrees saw their research jobs go to Singapore. People who were programmers saw that someone in Pakistan could fax the code in to the American headquarters. Accountants in New Delhi handle the coding of insurance policies and audits formerly handled by American accountants. Meanwhile, inside the country, we watched an open border, such that foreign born people own the convenience stores (and only hire their relatives or their inner circle,) restaurants like undocumented workers because they can pay them under the table, and H1 visa people also get dibs on jobs before American citizens do. But our society pulled along okay, because we had credit cards and the ability to watch the equity in our houses rise, and then borrow against it.

All that changed with the collapse of Fall 2008. And yes, Obama's stimulus bill and its 790 billion bucks made some sense - but that is a fraction of the remaining thirteen trillion bucks offered up.

Perhaps Sanders (Ind, VT) recent "Audit the fed" bill will help us understand more of the details.
Thoiugh many people expect it will be watered down.

But I for one found it exceptionally chilling when Good Ol' Ben of the Fed told "Sixty Minutes" that he was not giving out real money to the Banks and other Big Firms on Wall Street - he was simply creating accounts and putting digitized money into those accounts. That statement alone would have gotten coverage on half a dozen other "Sixty Minutes'" shows, if we were still living in a time when we had people like Ed Murrow or Walt Cronkite to dig a little for the Truth.

This era is the era of Big Advertising Bucks making sure that such coverage doesn't occur. Ever wonder why half the commercials on TV are about Credit cards? Most people these days cannot get a card these days - so those ads are not there to help consumers make choices. It is so that the networks don't get the cute little idea of putting together some real journalism and following the GS connections between the Wall Street offices and the Upper Government economic positions.

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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #114
116. I'm not sure....
As President of just the Fed in NY if Geithner really had the power to not go along with the Fed Chairman's policy and secondly the Fed helped out AIG, not Goldman Sachs. I don't think Obama economic appointments were at AIG or Goldman is a conspiracy but The Big banks became so entrenched in our economy that most qualified economists who worked in the economy worked there at some point.

Progressive critics need to realize he was handed a failing economy where only a few Big Banks controlled and if they failed the whole economy would. I don't think Obama sees this as the ideal and he pursuing financial reform.

All of the things you listed would be more concerning if I knew the administration and Congress weren't pursuing reform of the system.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #116
120. It's not about whether Geithner had to "go along" with The Fed when
G. was head of the NY Federal Reserve - it is that he did some rather semi-legal and very conflict of interest ridden back room deals.

As far as the reform and regulations, it will not help those who were destroyed by the policy of taking from Main Street to give to Wall Street. And the reform will be watered down and loop hole ridden, but of course, we will be told (just as we have been told about the HC "Reform" bill) that eventually it will all work out.
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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. no...I think financial reform will be different than HC reform...
Edited on Fri May-14-10 10:34 AM by Green_Lantern
Mainly because the public opinion polls are much more favorable to reform of Wall Street. If it bans derivatives and creates a bailout fund banks pay into then it is worth it. Breaking up the banks won't stave off another near collapse according to Paul Krugman.

For one thing, letting AIG collapse would've destroyed much more people because they controlled so much of the economy.

I just don't buy that Obama is secretly trying to let big business take over. I just think he's dealing with things the way they are not how we want them to be.

I'm not a DLCer but just being a realist.

PS: I apologize for implying you're just complaining.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-14-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. Oh please. When people in the economics forum here at DU
Edited on Fri May-14-10 03:42 PM by truedelphi
Understand the solutions better than the President (who now hides behind a rubric of "I didn't spend much time looking into economic matters while running for the highest office in the land") either we have the most naive President in the entire world, or one of the most corrupted. And since on the one hand he was smart enough to win this high position despite an intensely fought battle with Senator Clinton, with his people understanding every single thing they needed to do in fifty states to beat Clinton in the Primaries, it would be rather naive of me to believe that he and his advisers are
naive, and/or under informed.

As someone who voted for him, I hate saying that.

But he really is The Wall Street President. This is the number one reason why 60% of all Dems are having problems with this Administration.


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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #91
105. you didn't understand what I said
I didn't say the color of his skin excused anything. I said I understand why he might be inspired to work against right-wing stereotypes.

like I said, I'm not sorry I voted for him, considering the choices that we have and had.

that doesn't mean I'm happy with many of his choices or the directions taken.

obviously you have a different opinion.

I would prefer Dean - I think he would be a much better president for the American people. Obama, however, has done good things and bad things. like all presidents. I can't think of one that I totally agree with - LBJ is probably the biggest example of looking at the good and bad and wishing for something better but... in the context of the time, he was what we got.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #105
121. Please explain to me how it is that he is working against "right wing" stereotypes?
Edited on Thu May-13-10 04:14 PM by truedelphi
He is right wing. You cannot decide to give away Main Street's money and allow it to be handed over to Wall Street, and not have the label of "Right Wing" applied.

Now he is not Neo Nazi, Cheney/Rumsfeld "right wing" character type, but then if he were to play that role, the public would have never accepted any of the things he has done.

We would not have accepted the Health Care "Reform" and Bolstering of Monies for the Big Insurers and Big Pharma Act.

We would not have tolerated the fourteen billion bucks being given away to Wall Street, in exchange for some unemployment checks and for some Schedule M tax write offs, while Main Street closes up.

If Obama was as nasty as Mr Cheney, we would not be standing by while Monsanto is handed the ability to monopolize our food, and perhaps cause devastating famine in the near future.

But he is "right wing" in a sweet, kindly, personable and charismatic way. So the collective unconscious accepts all of this.



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Green_Lantern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #74
96. Obama isn't trying to be an SC Justice...
LBJ was horrible on Vietnam but his SC appointment of Thurgood Marshall became a progressive warrior on the Court.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-10 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
78. K&R

:kick:
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
83. Her position on no-warrant wiretapping:
“These occasions are rare and cannot be created or justified merely by a general invocation of the commander-in-chief power.”

2009 Senate Confirmation Hearings
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
84. K/R
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
87. Yeah but Bush didn't "make history" when he was elected. nt
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
97. The first sentence of your fourth paragraph is certainly up for debate
And Bush made a mess of things.


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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
107. I don't consider myself a partisan hack
and am deeply disturbed by what folks "on my side of the aisle" are doing and even more disturbed at those followers who think it all of the sudden is okay to support what I find to be reprehensible policies.
I don't even know where I belong anymore. It feels like we all fell through the looking glass.:(
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
117. knr
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
119. K&R. Hope for Change.
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