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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:18 AM
Original message
Poll question: What is your perspective on the DLC?
What constituency do they represent?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. My thoughts on the DLC is that they are a group that saved the DNC from being a permanent minority
party. Until such time as progressives and liberals can win over a larger percentage of the American public, their tactics are the only way we can combat and prevent the far right from remaking our nation to their scary ideals.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Funny my perspective is that we won the majority in spite of the DLC
It was Howard's 50 state strategy, note that the DLC stepped on many good candidates, that brought us the majority.

As Truman said, given the choice between a republican and a Democrat pretending to be a republican, the voters will choose the republican every time.

-Hoot
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. You can't cite the 50 state strategy with out also mentioned the Blue Dogs
that were required to make it work. Using Blue Dog Dems is the sort of pragmatic tactic endorsed by the DLC
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Those are the candidates that I was speaking of...
The Blue Dogs didn't make it work, the DLC ousted quite a few viable candidates by convincing others to withhold funding and fund the Blue Dog candidate. The Blue dogs are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

-Hoot
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. The Blue Dogs were at the heart of Dean's 50 state strategy as there are
states were a traditional Democrat simply can't get elected
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Dewey Defeats Truman!
Sure Democratic ideals aren't electable.

-Hoot
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
102. That is not being honest. The DCCC and the DSCC handpicked those candidates
They even overruled the local parties when they handpicked. It happened over and over in 2004 and 2006 and 2008.

Dean did not allow the DNC to take sides in primary races while he was chair.

So your statement is not true.

It is propaganda meant to skew the issue.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #102
158. Of course it is, That's what this one's job is.
Spinning fascism as "pragmatic", stealing credit for others accomplishments, and always selling out to the highest bidder regardless of position or consequences.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Bought America 12 years of a Republican Congress
Edited on Tue May-11-10 09:37 AM by depakid
and split the party in the 2000 presidential race.

Oops!

That's what happens when you repeatedly pander to the right and create the perception that you stand for nothing.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. That would be a misinterpretation of history
I am old enough to have lived through that history and so I can tell you that you got it wrong.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. That would be precisely what happened
Edited on Tue May-11-10 09:47 AM by depakid
No if and or buts about it- beginning in 1994.

and btw: you're wrong about the 50 state strategy, too.

Dean's strategy was to go to the people in each of the states and point out that people there needed good jobs, better education and health care- the guys with the confederate flags on their trucks, just like everobody else. They'd be helped by traditional Democratic policies, too.

It was your boy Rahm who recruited the blue dogs- who are about to be slaughtered come November- due to their very own actions in thwarting the Democratic agenda.

Some people never learn- and to the cowardly, complicit Blue dogs I say: good riddance.

The party is leaner, meaner- more cohesive and better off without you.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I got news for you the Dems were having problems long before 1994
Reagan's election was the first sign that there was some serious problems
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. Carter blew that election all by himself- though admittedly, he was dealt a pretty tough hand
Edited on Tue May-11-10 10:05 AM by depakid
And Reagan could have been beaten in 1984, had the Democratic establishment not backed a sure loser in Mondale- but stayed neutral or backed Hart instead.

Look at the primary map of that year and you'll see what I mean.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. See having lived through that era I can see very easily that you missed
that Hart self destructed when he challenged reporters to follow him around. Hart couldn't be elected dog catcher after that fiasco, which was a shame because I liked him.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
177. oh, bull. hart was taken out on purpose.
Edited on Wed May-12-10 02:48 PM by Hannah Bell
i lived through that era too.

dirty tricks.

the dems didn't want hart running.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
37. I'm curious what you thought they were?
The primary problem was that the right wing nuts had killed many of our leaders. We had just gone through 15 years of purging the segregationists from our ranks, passing civil right legislation, and stopping a stupid war. It is amazing we survived at all. But the DLC saw their chance to undermine everything that had been accomplished, and they took it.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #37
157. +1000 nt
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
38. 1994 was about liberals not coming out because of disappointments and
the conservatives being totally angry about attempted health care and the assault weapons ban and even DADT (the "compromise").

The truth is, Clinton campaigned as a DLC-er and won that way, though only in a 3 way race. Democrat was a dirty word still after Reagan and Bush. I remember that distinctly and I was only 16 in 1992! Clinton had to win back the Reagan Dems to win and he pandered to them. Pandered again in 1996 when he signed DOMA. DADT to me was his being backed into the corner by Sam Nunn and the conservadems. After 1994, Clinton never attempted to be anything else then a centrist. I guess he figured the moderate Dems and the centrists would keep voting for him and they did. Successful for him but hurt the Dem party as a whole. Still, his approval was high when he left...he was not going to change what was working for him.

Gore paid the price for that. I voted for Gore. I wasn't about to welcome Bush as my President. Sometimes you do what you have to do to keep a Rethug out of office. Was it Clinton's fault we were split? Yeah, but we only hurt ourselves. And then Bush stole a closer election.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. I think Gore shoulders some of the blame, while a good and intelligent man
he is not an outstanding campaigner. I also think he made a mistake cutting ties with President Clinton and deciding to go it alone. Still I will never forget that he still won but the election was stolen by the Republicans. Then again had he won his own home state the election wouldn't have been close enough to steal.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #44
59. Clinton redefined him as leftist
By diving so far to the right, Clinton and the DLC made him appear to be a hard leftist, to everyone but leftists, that just saw him as more DLC crap. So many went for Nader. Clinton intentionally dragged the party to the right, and succeeded. So far to the right that "compassionate conservativism" was appealing to them.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #44
62. Gore really never liked the spotlight and was always naturally shy.
But he would have made a very good President. And Clinton dragged Gore down a bit with his mistakes.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
85. I had never felt more ignored by a campaign.
He ignored young people, and regardless of his environmental concerns, he never spoke about that issue during the 2000 campaign.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
82. Clinton campaigned as a populist progressive in '92.
He governed as a weak DLC centrist. So liberals and union members not showing up to vote in '94 is a direct result of the DLC strategy. That's why Democrats lost in '94 and 2000. It's also why Clinton couldn't get a clear majority of the vote in '96 even when he had a weak opponent.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #82
114. Exactly. Clinton ran as a progressive and then governed like a DLC tool and then wondered why
people were not enthused to show up to vote. And as per usual the DLC never learns which is why they are repeating the very mistakes they made in the 90's.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I lived it too.
The Kid is spot on from what I saw. The real accomplishment of the DLC is moving the center far to the right. Don't believe me? I think 'welfare reform' wouldn't have happened in such a draconian way without the support of the DLC. How about the war on drugs?

-Hoot
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Now you need to go much further back than 1994 to fully understand the history
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. LOL
Wasn't the war on drugs pre '94?

Go ahead lay me out a timeline and show me how the DLC held the line and kept the center from moving right! I'll be back later, it may take you a while.

-Hoot
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. You need to understand what happened in the 60s, 70s and 80s
what happened in the 90s was the result of what had come before. It starts with Nixon and his Southern Strategy, which Reagan fully exploited. It had major roots in the right painting the 70s as the generation of liberal excesses, where they blamed the left on rising crime and a failed economy. It was a failure of the left to counter the successful destruction of the liberal name. It's a very complex issue and can not be fully described in one post. Needless to say it was the DLC that played a major role in reversing what appeared to be an unstoppable right wing revolution that started with Reagan.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #24
39. By abandoning what had been accomplished.
I'm not sure you can claim they "reversed" anything. They passed NAFTA and DADT and DOMA, and undermined welfare. "They had to destroy it to save it" is what you're suggesting.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
76. "Needless to say it was the DLC that played a major role in reversing"
Bullshit. Raygun and poppy bush ratfucked Carter in Iran. Then the DLC stepped in after Raygun and moved the center right.

-Hoot
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. I am well aware of what Reagan did. Having lived through that time
I am well aware how effective the right was in winning over the general public (after the election).
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. So then how was it that the DLC reversed the right shift?
I mean Nixon was farther left than most of the DLC.

-Hoot
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. At the time the liberal label had been all but destroyed by the right's very effective smear campaig
at that point the Dems could have either lost election after election by running as liberals or they needed to temporarily eject the label until such time as it's image had been rehabbed. By portraying the Dems as the party of moderate views, they had a some what effective weapon to use against the Republicans and their extremes. Those were dark times. The Moral Majority (and similar groups) had clout, liberals were pariahs and right wingnuts were admired. I feared for our nation's future. The Clinton Presidency was like an island of sanity in the sea of Republican insanity. It seemed the nation had lost it's collective minds with Reagan and Bush Sr and the Contract with American and Newt Gingrich and all the rest of the GOP.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #83
94. Dark times or not
The right wing noise machine was generating press with the contract on america. But the liberal bashing had been going on since at least Stevenson. JFK handled it well and provided the example of how to handle the bashing. When the DLC was formed its purpose was to capture seats by moving right not by saving the left.

The DLC moved the center right, embraced the MIC and we're going to be paying for it for a long time. Just in case you haven't noticed, these times are much darker.

-Hoot
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. Don't forget displaced 4 million Iraqi's and killed about 1 million.
And continue to blow our economy up their
war machine funded noses.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. And gave us DADT
DADT, NAFTA, DOMA, Welfare "reform", triangulation, and really, Ralph Nader. They pulled so far right, they pushed the GOP further right. And that ultimately gave us Bush II.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. While DADT was certainly flawed it was an improvement over commanders
challenging and asking the people in the military the sexual orientation and kicking them out if they answered "wrong". DADT is certainly flawed, but it was an improvement.

Welfare Reform while greatly demonized actually turned out to be something that helped people


As for saying it brought Ralph Nader I would say Ralph and his destructive actions are what the DLC fights against.


Also the DLC did not endorse DOMA so you can't pin that one on them
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Clinton SIGNED DOMA
They can't run from that one.

Welfare reform? It didn't "help" people. It merely forced them off the welfare rolls. The soup kitches filled up quickly. The shelters did too.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. It wasn't a DLC goal was it?
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. Yes, it was
Triangulation was, and is, their strategy. That's how we got DOMA.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. That's incorrect, the President may have signed it but it certainly wasn't something
the DLC was pushing for.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Huh?
Triangulation is what they were all about. It, along with Welfare Reform was textbook DLC.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Triangulation was a Clinton tactic not a DLC one, not that the DLC opposed it
Edited on Tue May-11-10 10:54 AM by NJmaverick
the problem is that right now our nation has twice the number of conservatives as it has liberals. Until we fix that, things like triangulation are the only way to keep the right out of power.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. Triangulation empowers the right
It forces you to move TOWARDS them. Which means they get what they want by moving even further in that direction.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. Considering it kept them out of the White House, prevented them from appointing more Justices
I don't see how it empowered them.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. DOMA, NAFTA, etc
It stopped health care reform, twice now actually. It got them DADT and DOMA, not to mention undermining welfare. It got them Bush II. Heck, the entire health insurance reform was presented to them by Obama as a variation of their 1995 offering to Clinton. They keep getting what they want by opposing it. Seems to be working great for them. The left on the other hand is left to be told that they should be glad that these things are democrat victories, not GOP victories. You're basically making that case right now.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #55
70. The right was not made powerless, but you are ignoring some rather important points
Imagine if Justices like Ginsberg was replaced with another Scalia, for example
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. That's what you get when you push them to the right
The party has move right, as the DLC chased them. You get Ginsberg, and they give us Scalia. Where's the radical equivalent of Scalia on the left? There isn't one, because the whole idea of triangulation and the DLC is to move TOWARDS the right.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #74
104. Got news for you, you couldn't be further afield of the truth
the Christian right and Ronald Reagan were the forces that drove the GOP to the right.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. Ha
Ronald Reagan wasn't "right". He talked a good game, but don't be fooled by the myth. Other than taxe cuts (which were written by Dan Ronkowski) he wasn't particularly right at all. Neither was Daddy Bush. They both talked a good game though. There was a push to the right, but those two FOLLOWED it. Heck, Daddy Bush was pro-abortion until he accepted the VP slot. Reagan SIGNED the abortion law in California. The Christian right would have driven the GOP right off a cliff, if Clinton hadn't come along to join them.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #108
122. You speak like someone that didn't live through that era or were not old enough to appreciate it
If you had lived through it you would better understand what I am trying to tell you.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #122
129. You sound like that too
I lived through Nixon for goodness sakes. I lived through Carter. I saw Clinton a mile away for what he was and held my nose twice when I voted for him. I also remember Reagan. The cognizant dissonance was staggering. Any liberal would have been roasted for the golden asterisk. You want to make Clinton into something he wasn't as much as folks want to advance the myth of Reagan. Clinton went WAY to the right after '92. And NAFTA has been a disaster. The only thing Perot got wrong was where the sucking sound was coming from.

I wanted Obama to be a good democrat. I actually thought Clinton might be one. I've been dissappointed once, and disillusioned once. Strangely, I prefer disappointment to disillusionment.
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mochajava666 Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #122
174. You may have lived during that era, but you didn't understand it
Truman was right about Dems posing as Repukes.

That Clinton DLC era that you are so proud of was Clinton taking advice from David Gergan (adviser to Nixon, Ford, and Reagan) and then he took advice from Dick Morris.

You must be a big fan of Dick Morris, and David Gergen, but I think you are actually much more Machiavellian and conservative than those two.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #45
54. When 36% of the population does NOT....................
have a negative view of the word "socialist", even after 30 years of RW propaganda, then I don't think you can say that the country has twice as many conservatives as liberals. What the country HAS, nowdays, is a couple of extremes and a sizable, squishy middle who NEED to be led by one side or the other. BUT THEY DON'T NEED TO BE LED FARTHER TO THE RIGHT! They need to be led to the LEFT! That's why I think that the DLC has outlived it's usefulness. The DLC is fighting the LAST political war, not the next one.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #54
72. 40% of the populations considers themselves conservative while only 20% considers themselves liberal
there is major work that needs to be done
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #72
112. Where and when did you get those figures?
The last I saw only 29% or 30% of the people polled classified themselves as Republican, which is the conservative brand. If 36% aren't negative about "socialism", then you should be safe in assuming them as leftist. Which would leave about 35% somewhere in the middle. Those are the ones we need to try and lead LEFT!
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #112
175. If I had to take a guess, from his nether region. n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #175
179. same as my guess, imagine that!
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #45
178. false. clinton = dlc.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
165. Study after study has shown welfare reform was a disaster for poor families. nt
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. the DLC only worked at the time because they had bill clinton. if they weren't running bill, they
never would have had any success.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. The other way to look at it is that there wouldn't have been a President Clinton
if there wasn't a DLC
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. Clinton is no progressive
He pulled the party way to the right. The only reason he was even IN the race was because most of the major potential candidates chose not to even run that year (figuring Bush would win easily). 8 years later, he had managed to marginalize most of the left, and push the towards Nader. He had also pushed the GOP further right. That's how we ended up with Bush II.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #31
46. He is left of center which is a hell of a lot better than Reagan, Bush Sr or Bush Jr
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Right of center
DOMA, NAFTA, etc. those were right of center positions.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #48
73. Try abortion rights, the justices he picked and many more major social issues
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. Lean away from partial birth abortions
heck, the entire language of partial birth abortions comes about because the DLC moved towards the right. There is no such medical term. Yet the court, even with Clinton appointees, has moved to the right.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Spin it if you like but President Clinton was most definitely left of center
on the major social issues (when one views the big picture(
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #77
84. Left of you?
It's kind of interesting that in polling data, his positions are to the right of where most americans are, when asked about specific issues outside of campaigns, but you are labeling that as "left of center". Since you are obviously a DLC sympathizer, I'd suspect that leaves you fairly right of center (at least in 1992).
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. Nope left of center. As for your rather inflammatory comment about
Edited on Tue May-11-10 12:16 PM by NJmaverick
DLC sympathizer I have been called worst. In my life time I have been called a gay sympathizer, a minority sympathizer, a woman's rights sympathizer and so on. I wear every single one of those attacks as a badge of honor (including yours).
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #88
98. Well, aren't you
I mean, really, you are defending the DLC and their policy of triangulation are you not?

And what makes you think that is left of center when most polls place it right of center?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. I am a pragmatic liberal. That means I favor doing what it takes to keep the
nation from lurching to the right. I appreciate that the DLC played a key role in breaking the Republican choke hold on control of this nation. So I don't demonize or hate the DLC as many others do. I don't agree with the DLC on everything but I certainly recognize a valuable ally in our fight against the Republicans and the right wingers.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. Defensive politics
What's the old argument, which is more important a strong defense or a strong offense. You seem to be taking the old Newt Gingrich strategy that the most important thing is to oppose the other side. Rush loves to comment that he prefers being in the minority because it is easier to be against something. In the end, you're relying upon the opposition to define the debate.

I'd rather define the debate, instead of merely swimming upstream all the time. Yeah, it's nice to be a strong swimmer, but the stream is still flowing the wrong way.

"Liberals" ruled this country for the better part of 40 years. How long did your DLC last?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. As long as the 40/20 rule applies defense is the best we can hope for
we need to put major efforts into changing that ration if we want to be able to go on the offense. As long as the right has FAUX news and hate radio and we have nothing to counter that. We need to at least bring the percentage of liberals to within 5% or so rather than letting them be double.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. The right is counting on that
You'll note that when they had a smaller majority, they didn't rule that way. But the DLC didn't make them either. The funny part was that Clinton never figured out that he was at his most popular when he OPPOSED the GOP. Worked wonders with the whole government shut down schtick.

The current bunch-o-conservadems leverages GOP opposition AGAINST the progressive wing. The GOP never did that when they were in power.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #103
172. Odd definition considering that every position you've taken has been in support of moving to the
right. And if you think people who consider the corporations who fund them more important than the citizenry which the DLC does in spades then you are certainly no liberal.

The DLC is a Trojan Horse designed to destroy the Democratic party from within. But there's always a sucker falling for their nonsense.

I present, Exhibit A.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #77
101. The DLC is pragmatic on social issues.
Edited on Tue May-11-10 01:18 PM by Marr
Their position on social issues depends on what the political winds are like. In a country this woefully uninformed, simply saying you're for reproductive rights is often enough to distinguish a corporate lobbyist from the corporate lobbyist running under the Republican banner. The DLC is all about being *just liberal enough* to run against the Republican.

In terms of trade, foreign policy, and financial policy, they're right-wing.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
50. i'll respectfully disagree on that one.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
36. And this from the guy who wants to be called a "Liberal"
:rofl:
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
93. By selling out to corporations, the DLC is lower than dog shit.
We deserve more than representation by corporate whores (which 99% of Democrats are). Time to throw them all out.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
100. The DLC was formed by the RNC to destroy the Dem party from within
you and your selfservative friends have been doing a fine job of that. Now you are hellbent on destroying both America and the entire globe along with it to serve your endless voracious greed.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #100
130. yup.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
140. If the DLC had had its way,
Edited on Tue May-11-10 08:22 PM by sabrina 1
Dean would never have been able to win a majority in 2006 for Democrats. They fought him every step of the way to try to kill his 50 state program. Afterwards, they tried to take credit for his work.

The DLC is made up of Reagan Republicans and has infiltrated the Democratic Party, working hard to make both parties paid lackies of Corporate America.

We didn't know all this a few years ago, but now that we do, things are likely to change. Maybe kicking them all out of the party, or maybe, a new party will emerge. But the current Dem. Party cannot continue on its current course. The public threw out the Republicans because they didn't like their ideas. Now, we see that very little changed.

The majority of Americans ARE liberal in terms of what they want for their families. The only reason they are not represented is because of the enormous amount of money being spent by Corps to prevent politicians who actually represent them from getting elected.

You couldn't be more wrong. In the real world, outside of DC, the average person will vote for their own interests, not the interests of Wall St. which is what both parties are now doing.

A real marker of how the American people (not counting the minority fringe elements who get most of the coverage on tv) are united on what is important to their lives, was how they reacted to the Wall St. bailouts. Nearly 80% of Americans opposed them. That crosses all party lines.

We the people, are being silenced by Big Money and we have to find a way around that. When we do, the DLC along with the rest of their rightwing buddies will be history.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
143. Agreed
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
150. **CRUNCH!... munch munch munch!!**


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Ardent15 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
173. Uh huh
Edited on Wed May-12-10 01:58 PM by Ardent15
Are you paid by the DLC to post here?
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. The DLC is the big business faction of the Democratic Party.
Edited on Tue May-11-10 09:38 AM by Marr
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
13. and they are also the fascist wing of the Democratic Party
They are as happy to tear the Constitution to shreds as Bush was.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. hyperbole much? or are you channeling Glenn Beck?
Edited on Tue May-11-10 09:56 AM by NJmaverick
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
30. Beck is a nazi, while Al From is a fascist
DLC is a proto-fascist organization.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
180. Corporate fascism like Italy, Spain, privatization of government is destructive to democracy
and, DUers, I haven't altered my views as expressed in my previous threads about the DLC.

Inconvenient truths about the New Democrats, the Third Way, Democratic Leadership Council, etc
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2973191
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
23. "They know the price of everything, and the value of nothing" - Oscar Wilde
Unprincipled neo-libs who tell you it's for your own good when they stab you.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
128. That's it in a nutshell
Best summation of DLC I've seen.
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mochajava666 Donating Member (771 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
176. Exactly.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
27. centrist!? That's laughable...
they are corrupt, plain and simple
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. From the perspective of Mussolini's belly button, DLC is centrist
From the POV of what was considered traditional liberal Democratic ideals, DLC is a Republican organization from the Nixon era.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. exactly....
I read your other posts and could not agree with you any more. There's is nothing populist about them and even tout as much... once they opened the flood gates to Wall Street, they just about destroyed what used to be an opposition party.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
29. From my perspective I see an axle... a couple of tires...
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
32. The DLC stole my car and kidnapped my kitty
:grr:
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
40. The DLC is a Republican infiltration of the Democratic party
deliberately designed to undermine our party and destroy it from within. Josef Stalin would be proud.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. +1
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
56. That's exactly why I detest DLC
and I'll never understand why supporters of an organization that want to destroy the Democratic Party are allowed the remain and post here. IMO the only thing worse than a neocon is a neocon enabler.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
49. I think that they've outlived their usefulness
They were useful when the country was FAR to the right (80s/90s), but not so useful since the country has shifted leftward. Now they're a hindrance.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
51. They are no longer needed
When the democrats started winning back it wasn't because we wanted to cooperate or get along with the republicans or because we wanted a third way between democrats and republicans. It was because we rejected the privatization and free market ubber alles nonsense as well as the wasteful and stupid wars and other absurdity.

We rejected lieberman and the blue dog jerks who represented the corporate wing of the Democratic party.

The DLC was formed originally of Reagan Democrats and the failure of supply side bullshit and the end of the Reagan/conservative pile of nonsense should have been the end of them.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
52. Other
Edited on Tue May-11-10 10:52 AM by WeDidIt
The DLC has no money, no power, no relevance, and no constituency any more.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. They occupy the White House
And they are now moving into the Supreme Court. The Obama administration is full of them from the CoS on down. It's why there was no room in the Cabinet for Dean.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Bullshit
Obama was never a member.

And the organization is dead for all intents and purposes.

You need to find a new bogeyman for your angst.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. Rahm
Look down the list of folks high up in the administration. DLC'ers all around. Look at some of the early support that Obama got that encouraged him to run. Old DLC'ers that thought Hillary wouldn't win. Look at his Secretary of State. Look at his tendency towards triangulation. He's a DLC'er in everthing but the membership card.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. You need to take off the trinfoil
Here are a few facts for you:

1) Karl Rove was not some evil genius who could make small airplanes fall out of the sky.

2) Rahm Emmanuel does not control the White House, Barack Obama does.

3) There is no all powerful cabal of "DLCers" controlling everything that happens in the Democratic Party.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. "Karl Rove was not some evil genius who could make small airplanes fall out of the sky."
Well of course not. That's not his role in the Bush Crime Family. Other people take care of those things. Just ask Salem Bin Laden, or that poor son of a bitch who rigged the Diebold software in Ohio.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. And all the documents backing this assertion up
are hidden in Area 57.

:eyes:

:tinfoilhat:
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #66
86. That's Area 51
Geezus... doesn't Rahm tell you anything?
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. Piffle, EVERYBODY knows about Area 51
Area 57 does not exist.

:hide:

:tinfoilhat:
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #63
67. So they have no influence
I'm so glad to know that he Chief of Staff of the White House has no influence at all. And there is no influence at all of having a couple of hundred former members of the DLC in the highest positions in the White House and in the Cabinet. I'm also glad to know that it means nothing that these are the kinds of people that Obama chooses to have on his staff. I'm sure that says nothing about him at all. And these people have no input what so ever on what kind of future appointments and hiring will be done.

And so there was no reason at all to worry that so many federal appointees of Bush II were Federalist Society members.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #67
87. For all intents and purposes, the organizaiton is dead
So yes, the DLC has no influence because it no longer exists.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #87
154. ?...But you have been wrong before.
No charge for pointing out your mistakes.
My pleasure.



The DLC New Team
Progressives Need NOT Apply

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)


”I am a New Democrat!”---Barack Obama
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=254931&kaid=85&subid=900184
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #67
91. Do you think the liberals in Obama's administration have no influence?
Let's try inserting a little logical consistency into your argument. Yes, there are former DLC members in Obama's administration. There are also many liberals and the two people most responsible for getting Obama in the race were liberal stalwarts Dick Durbin and John Kerry.

If the presence of DLC members in the administration is proof that Obama is DLC, then isn't the presence of liberals in the administration also proof that Obama is liberal?

Or, you could consider that Obama was telling the truth during the campaign when he said that there would be diverse viewpoints in his administration, including people who disagree with him. That would be the logical conclusion for anyone not trying their hardest to look for any reason to be outraged.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. Name them
They could find no place for Dean for example. Who are the "hard leftists" in the administration? Who is advocating the renegotiation of NAFTA? Who is advocating a pullout from Iraq and Afghanistan now?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #97
106. Is Dean a liberal again?
That phony went back and forth so many times it's hard to keep track. Maybe there isn't room in the administration because he's a self-important, worthless asshat with a personality cult.

You know, it's a shame that liberals are so quick to bark about the disappointing appointments and slow to celebrate the liberal ones. It shouldn't be so difficult to find a list of administration liberals. They're there, but most left commentators see it as their role to always dissent and never praise. So, I'll make a quick one off the top of my head.

The start of the list is Barack Obama, who has a stronger liberal record than Dean ever dreamed of.
David Axelrod
Melody Barnes
Hilda Solis
Susan Rice
Lisa Jackson
Denis McDonough
Valerie Jarrett
George Mitchell
Karl Eikenberry - To answer a specific question, he strongly argued against the troop surge in Afghanistan.
Christina Romer

I'm sure there are many more. And how do you like former DLC chair Harold Ford's position in the administration? Oh yeah, he doesn't have one.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. Even Obama won't call himself a liberal
Cadillac Taxes
No public option
Gitmo
Indefinite detentions
DADT
DOMA
Gay Marriage in general
Rich Warren
Limited Miranda
Drill baby Drill
Escalating in Afghanistan
Sticking with the SOFA
Sticking with Gates
Timmy
Ben
Telecom immunity
"having the backs" of the tortures
Abuse photos


I'm shocked you'd even try to call Obama a liberal when even HE won't say that.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. I notice that most of your list isn't anything.
The Senate blocked closing Gitmo. Obama tried and has released or arranged for most of the prisoners to receive trials. He's acting like a liberal on that one.
He proposed and fought for a public option. Once again, maybe you think Obama is still a Senator?
He has stood by his commitment to repeal DADT. He's liberal on that one.
"Sticking with Gates" is not a policy position. Maybe he's using Gates to help enact a liberal agenda.
Timmy? Watching South Park lately?

A lot of your list is symbolic "I'm looking for a reason to be offended by a symbolic gesture" stuff. I care more about policy and action. I'm happy to see him stroke moderates and conservatives like Rick Warren if it gets a progressive agenda passed into law.

I don't think you want action. I think you want entertainment. You want to be entertained by someone like Kucinich or Dean screaming about how liberal they are. You want a candidate who panders to you with words. I look at action. That's why I prefer Obama over Dean. Dean is a pandering performer. Obama gets shit done.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. Let's align some facts
The Senate blocked closing Gitmo.

Actually, they blocked his attempt at a change of address. He has no intention of "closing" it. He has, infact, stated that he intends on setting up a system allowing him to hold, without trial, certain detainees for as long as is deemed necessary.

Obama tried and has released or arranged for most of the prisoners to receive trials.

Hardly, see above. How long does one wait for justice? The constitution says 25 days. When do these trials start? Will tortured information be allowed as evidence?

He proposed and fought for a public option. Once again, maybe you think Obama is still a Senator?

He did not fight for a public option. He gave it away in July at the latest. He even tried to claim he didn't campaign on it.

He has stood by his commitment to repeal DADT. He's liberal on that one.

How does one stand by something by continually agreeing to delay it? We don't even really know what he's going to ultimately do. he's done nothing and he won't even protect the currently enlisted while the military is allowed to do their study.

"Sticking with Gates" is not a policy position. Maybe he's using Gates to help enact a liberal agenda.

Would that be escalating the war in Afghanistan, or sticking with the SOFA? You mean, in all the country, he couldn't find a liberal to help him advance a liberal agenda?


Timmy? Watching South Park lately?

No, I don't get my political information from cartoons.


A lot of your list is symbolic "I'm looking for a reason to be offended by a symbolic gesture" stuff.

Torture policy is not "symbolic". Health Care is not symbolic. Ben Bernake is DEFINITELY not symbolic.

I care more about policy and action. I'm happy to see him stroke moderates and conservatives like Rick Warren

Warren isn't a moderate, he's a bigot. But all the moderates around here thank you for that insult.

if it gets a progressive agenda passed into law.

And what would that be? The GOP version of health insurance reform, written in 1995 by the GOP to BLOCK any hope of national health CARE?


I don't think you want action. I think you want entertainment. You want to be entertained by someone like Kucinich or Dean screaming about how liberal they are. You want a candidate who panders to you with words. I look at action. That's why I prefer Obama over Dean. Dean is a pandering performer.

Well, if we are telling each other want they "really want", then might I suggest you wanna president that can win on American Idol.

He's obviously already won yours, since you're calling him a liberal and even HE won't agree to that. But I know, you and he have this "secret understanding" don't ya.

Obama gets shit done.

Just not liberal shit.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #118
124. Obama's record is no secret. It's liberal.
I wrote: "conservatives like Rick Warren"
and you wrote that I'm calling Warren a moderate. You aren't interested in an honest debate.

I could spend an hour finding links that correct all the false statements in your comment. There are many, many false statements in your comment. But it would be a waste of time as long as you believe everything you read that criticizes Obama from the left. You sound just as hopelessly eager to believe any flimsy accusation that confirms your views as the conservative talk radio cult.

I've already proven you were wrong about there being no liberals in the administration and you haven't defended your logical inconsistency which suggests that their mere presence proves Obama is a liberal too. You can research the number of Gitmo detainees released on your own (released, not just moved), along with the changes to Bush era torture guidelines, what he has actually said about DADT here in the real world rather than how someone mischaracterizes his position, and so on. If you aren't willing to do the research yourself then I know you wont believe anything I link either. You are horribly misinformed.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. I'd suggest you aren't paying attention
Fact: Gitmo isn't closed, and Obama isn't going to close it, he's going to move it. What part are you disputing?

Fact: Obama does not consider himself a liberal, has said so on the campaign, considers himself a "new democrat" which is what the DLC calls itself these days. Furthermore, he went on Fox News to explain that he "rejected progressive ideas". That really doesn't make him much of a liberal. What part are you disputing?

Fact: The torture guidelines in place on the day he took office weren't all that different from what Obama wrote. Torture hadn't been used for the better part of 3 years. The memos authorizing had been withdrawn before Bush left office. Obama retained authority to use it at his discretion in the very same order stating it should not be used. What part are you disputing?

Fact: DADT hasn't changed one bit. They are still being ejected. They are still being investigated. He has produced no written legislation indicating what he intends upon doing. He is giving the military ANOTHER year to study the issue. What part are you disputing?

Fact: He campaigned AGAINST cadillac taxes, and mandates. He fought for both. What part do you dispute?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #125
138. Cherry picking and distortion.
Edited on Tue May-11-10 04:58 PM by Radical Activist
I'll ask again that you do some research on your own. Let's start with just one issue. How many Gitmo detainees have been released (not moved but released) or have a trial currently scheduled or underway since Obama took office? Do you know? Can you find out? Do you even care?

And once again you are leaving out the fact that it was Congress that denied Obama's request to close Gitmo. Blaming that on Obama is deceptive. So let's start with this one issue and see if you're any better at acknowledging anything good Obama does than the conservative talk radio cult. It's very easy to get a distorted worldview when you cherry pick the bad and ignore the good like you and Rush Limbaugh are doing.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #138
144. Not to close, to move
You keep avoiding inconvenient facts. He was denied the ability to move Gitmo, not close it. That isn't cherry picking. If you won't acknowledge that singular fact, you can't claim any level of honesty.

And how many detainees did Bush release? Do you really want to bring Habeas corpus to a numbers game?

Can you really represent Obama as a liberal if he is willing to continue to delay justice to detainees at Gitmo? You do realize the reason for a right to a speedy trial in the constitution is exactly for this reason right? Justice delayed is justice denied. I heard that somewhere.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #144
146. You aren't interested in facts or doing the research.
If you can't acknowledge what Obama has done to speed up trials, the policy changes to bring justice to the prisoners, the policy changes in how they're treated, and that over half the prisoners have already been RELEASED (not moved) by Obama then you can't claim any level of honesty. You're just as stubbornly uninterested in the truth as any Obama hating Limbuagh fan.

I could go down the rest of your list of "facts" and point out the realities that you don't want to hear. It would obviously be a waste of time. I can call Obama a liberal because I'm aware of what he has done on the issue, even though there are people distorting the record because they want him to do a little more. I want to push Obama left too but I'll do it honestly in a way that recognizes his efforts.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #146
162. I can
I can acknowledge that he is doing things differently. What you can't seem to acknowledge is that the underlying structure has not changed. He still has prisoners being kept without trial. And he intends upon sustaining that policy. He'll change the address but not the policy.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-13-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #162
184. The policy already has changed.
You're proving my point pretty well. You'd rather ignore information that doesn't fit your preconceptions about Obama, just like any Limbaugh fan. Saying its only a change of address without any other policy change is a lie.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #113
123. Obama? Liberal?
Bwahahahahahahahaha! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :puke:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #123
133. no shit... I didn't think that poster was serious
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #133
145. Not just this one
I am amazed the number of posters that continue to make this assertion, even though Obama himself avoids the label, and has chosen "new democrat" instead.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #145
166. it bull crap spin... he is no liberal nor progressive
and it's based on his policy decisions, not some pretty speeches.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #166
167. They need to believe it
The truth is, they need to believe it. Otherwise, they are subject to disappointment.
The argument that he has done "some" liberal things, therefor he's a liberal, is indefensible. Bush II did "liberal" things. He often got high marks for his African Aids assistance. He passed a perscription drug benefit for goodness sakes, and didn't worry about the cost. He teamed with Teddy to pass education reform. Ultimately he also signed TARP legislation and started the whole bailout schtick. That doesn't make him a liberal by any stretch.

Yes, Obama has signed Leadbetter, and changed alot of the details of how the departments make decisions. The vast majority of that is admirable. But at his core, he is no more a liberal than Clinton. He's a centrist at best. A tip toe through the health insurance reform bill, and his Gitmo policies will reveal that.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #52
80. Besides the presidency, chief of staff, new head of the DNC, etc. "I am a New Democrat"
Edited on Tue May-11-10 12:10 PM by rudy23
Remember that quote from Obama? DLC changed their moniker to "New Democrats", and Obama acknowledged his membership in that group.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #80
107. No, I don't remember that.
Do you have a clip? A transcript of a public statement? Anything that isn't second or third hand gossip? No, you don't.

But we do know that Obama specifically asked the DLC not to associate themselves with him back when he ran for Senate. And we have plenty of evidence by his words and actions that he isn't one of them. So it looks like you'll grasp at whatever straws you can find.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #107
135. "I am a New Democrat"
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/131210/uh_oh:_obama_calls_himself_a_new_democrat/

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20090311/pl_politico/19862
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #135
137. So no, you don't have a direct quote, clip, or transcript.
Just gossip from the frequently discredited Politico. That's what I thought.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #137
155. Will this do?
”I am a New Democrat!”---Barack Obama
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=254931&kaid=85&subid=900184
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #155
168. That still links to the one and only source. The discredited Politico gossip rag.
Edited on Wed May-12-10 11:48 AM by Radical Activist
Every site that repeated this line links back to Politico's unsubstantiated gossip. They have an agenda. You fell for it hook, line, and sinker. People who are eager to have their preconceptions confirmed make an easy target.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #168
170. As you have exemplified several times in this thread.

The DLC New Team

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)


Duh.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #170
171. Yeah, Obama said he'd have a wide range of viewpoints in his administration.
You're proving that he didn't lie. BFD.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
58. The DLC is the Boogeyman
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
65. They are a balance to the far left
Keeps the Democratic party well rounded
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. I'm curious what you don't like about the "far left"
I'd be curious what you think the "far left" is?
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. The whole anti capitalism and corporatism agenda
instead of just having sound regulations and tax policies.

Also the far left is more about fighting the opposition while the DLC is more into compromise. I find that with some compromises you are able to sell your ideas to the middle and helps the Democrats keep a majority
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. So it's about tactics
Your complaint is about tactics then, not policies.

As for the capitalism and corporatism agenda, it's a tad vague, but what about that agenda do you support that you think the left opposes?

The reason I ask is I am hearing more right/GOP spin about who the left is and what their positions are, than anything that is actually a position. The language can vary a large bit, which is where one starts to get into tactics.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #69
90. Right, because if we have learned anything the last 30 years
it's that corporations are our friends, and are all just wonderful people who are out to do the best for all the American people, and even all the folks in the third world who volunteer to work in their sweatshops.

There's absolutely no reason to regulate them, they'll do it all themselves. No really, Al From and I were discussing this just the other day at the country club with Erik Prince, Rupert Murdoch, and Mitt Romney. Mitt's actually a little miffed that we stole his mandatory insurance scam from him, but he's got a plan to recover from it, when Bain Capital and the Carlyle Group buy out United Health Care. What a great day that will be for middle America.













































Do I really need this -------> :sarcasm:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
92. Yes, both of them.
There isn't much of a far left in the elected Democratic party anymore. I'd call them a balance to the left.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #65
148. What far left? There is no far left.
But those who feed at the corporate trough sure like to toss that canard around. Well rounded? How exactly is having Republican who are too cowardly to actually come out as Republicans keep the party "well rounded?" The party doesn't even bother to fight for the principles it claims to uphold. And the DLC is the reason for that. The DLC is a poison that's killing the party. But too many people are either too stupid, or too well entrenched to see that.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #65
153. There is no "Far Left" in US Politics anymore, just fascist and fascist-lite.
Quit spouting corporatist lies that keep driving this country further and further to the Right
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #65
160. That would be the job of Republics, please go take your own party back. n/t
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
81. First off, I believe the DLC prefers to go by the term "New Dems" now, and secondly
Edited on Tue May-11-10 12:12 PM by NorthCarolina
I believe the correct answer to this poll is #4, but is a direct result of #5. In other words

The DLC is wherever the corporations want them to be, placing them far to the right of America's political center.

IMO "America's political center" is to the left of the Governments political center.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
95. Stopped the Democratic Party from using its most effective messages.
Some DLCers were right to see after '88 that the party needed something besides a liberal from Massachusetts. But over time it became a corporate tool that stopped Democrats from using their most effective economic populist messages. Clinton won as an economic populist in '92 and his mistake was not governing that way. Blanche Lincoln is experiencing the same problem. She's campaigning as an economic populist right now but she's unpopular because she votes like a DLC corporate centrist.

The narrow focus on targeted voter groups (usually seniors and soccer moms) without any vision or big goals hurt the party. The DLC strategy pursued from '93 until roughly 2006 is the primary reason why Democrats have no chance in rural areas anymore, it's why liberals left the party in 2000, it's why most colleges had bigger campus Green chapters than College Democrat chapters by 2000, and it's why voters were so hungry for a candidate with a real message in 2008. It's the "vision thing."
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
96. Politically, they are an opponent of mine.
I'm more of a Roosevelt Democrat with Bobby Kennedy sprinkled in.
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ConservativeDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
99. I used to support them. Now I don't.
At this point, they're now just the other side of the circular firing squad -
as bad as the Obama-bashers who post on this site.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
110. A distraction... a boogeyman used on DU when
someone disagrees.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #110
117. damned distracting disagreers.
They should just shut the fuck up and agree and stop that distracting crap no matter what some cabal of right-wingers does in the name of the Democratic Party.

And get off my lawn!
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
115. I know a lot of blue collar workers and gun owners that jumped ship in 94 thanks to..
.. the DLC's support of NAFTA & the assault weapons ban.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #115
119. Right. It was a strategy designed for suburbanites.
They won suburban soccer moms but the party has never recovered in rural areas.
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workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
120. The DLC is a tool of cowboy capitalists
At least the rethuglicans kiss their masters in public.

The DLC does it behind closed doors and then pretends to give a damn about workers, the poor and middle class.:eyes::puke:
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
121. Terry McAuliffe
Remember that douchebag? He was the walking talking personification of everything I found wrong with the DLC.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
126. They're the yuppie wing of the Democratic Party
They're all for personal freedom, but don't do anything that will hurt share prices.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
127. DLC sucks. Is that "other"? :)
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #127
131. not to me.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
132. The republican wing of the Democratic Party
:puke:
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
134. The DLC is the anti-liberal, pro-corporate wing of the Democratic Party.
They have been wrong for 30 years.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
136. "Republican Lite"
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
139. Unfortunately, the DLC is "in charge".
"They" are running the show, and are completely responsible for every betrayal of "Democratic Values" over the last year....Like letting Joe Lieberman & The Republicans write the Health Care Reform Bill.



The DLC New Team
Progressives Need NOT Apply

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)


The DLC Dream List:
*WARS fully funded and EXPANDING. Bill sent to our children…...Mission Accomplished !

*Trillion Dollars given to friends and campaign contributors on Wall Street. No Strings Attached...Mission Accomplished!

*Military Spending INCREASED....Mission Accomplished!

*Trillion+ Dollars given to the Health Insurance Industry. Easily Avoidable, symbolic only strings attached....Mission Accomplished!

*Force all Americans to buy invisible products from For Profit Corporations who manufacture nothing and create no (Value Added) wealth..."A Uniquely American Solution"..indeed. .....Mission Accomplished!

*Kill the possibility for a REAL "Public Option" or REAL Universal Health Care for at least another generation, and begin the “Entitlement Reform” defunding of Medicare (-$500 Billion)....Mission Accomplished!

*Block ANY REAL re-regulation of BIG BANKS and Credit Cards....Mission Accomplished!

*Protect the Bush War Criminals and Torturers from JUSTICE....Mission Accomplished.

*Throw the GBLTs under the bus and expand "faith based" initiatives....Mission Accomplished!

*Reinforce the worst Police State provisions of the Patriot Act and strengthen the Unitary Executive....Mission Accomplished!

*Protect the very richest. Tell the Working Class that they CAN WILL compete with 3rd World Slave Labor for their jobs.....Mission Accomplished!

*EFCA (Employee Free Choice Act) killed in the crib....Mission Accomplished!

*More Anti-LABOR "Free Trade"....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Jobless Recovery....Mission Accomplished

*The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party SHUT OUT of the Obama Administration…...Mission Accomplished!

*Accelerate the destruction of Public Education...Mission Accomplished!

*Bury next generation under such a debt burden that they will never be able to afford any social or economic programs that will benefit their Working Class....Mission Accomplished.


But HANG ON!
The destruction of Social Security is NEXT on the DLC hit list.
Its no secret. It is right there on their website.
They call it "Entitlement Reform".

The DLC is more responsible for the destruction of the American Working Class than the Republican Party.

"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans."---Paul Wellstone





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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. They are not in charge of me, only their own futures.
Although there are different views of what that is based on thoughts people have.

Time for a Narwhal song, with all the ridiculousness.

Narwhals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykwqXuMPsoc
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #139
151. amen, brother!
:applause:
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #139
181. +1
:thumbsup:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
142. As handy as a barber shop next to the guillotine.
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ultracase24 Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
147. K and R
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #147
163. +1
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
149. Money sets the marching orders. They do whatever $$$$ likes within
the bounds set by constituency.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
152. Corporatist lapdogs.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
156. The DLC is where the true Republicans went when they
Edited on Wed May-12-10 01:18 AM by Cleita
couldn't stomach Nixon and then Reagan and the Bushes, whom we know are organized crime. However, we need our true Democratic Party back, the party of the working class and the majority of Americans known as "we the people". Let's hope the DLCers form a moderate, conservative party separate from the Democrats to replace the Sarah Palin/Tea Party takeover of the Republican Party, which is going the way of the Tories and that is extinct.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
159. The DLC represents whoever pays for them.
Right now, it's the corporatocracy. Are people even trying to deny that anymore?
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
161. They represent the corporations and special interests ...
That's why I used to call them Republican Lite. Now I just call them venial idiots who are willing to sell us for a used subway token if they need one.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
164. the democratic wing of the republican party
fuck the dlc.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #164
169. Except that they aren't creating chaos in the Republican Party.
They are doing it to us, the real Democrats.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
182. DLC is pretty much the reason the dem party has been out of power since the '80's
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-12-10 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
183. You don't have the option for
"Is apparently like the Illuminati of politics and has secret wizard powers".
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