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Echo In Light (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 02:15 PM Original message |
War Epics on Screen Skip Mass Slaughter of Civilians |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 02:31 PM Response to Original message |
1. Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo |
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Chulanowa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 02:51 PM Response to Reply #1 |
5. The old "hiding behind civilians" canard |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 03:14 PM Response to Reply #5 |
7. Again, not that simple. |
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Chulanowa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 03:44 PM Response to Reply #7 |
9. No problem. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 04:25 PM Response to Reply #9 |
12. I live in Burbank, CA |
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Chulanowa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 04:43 PM Response to Reply #12 |
13. So what, exactly are you arguing? |
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Posteritatis (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:51 PM Response to Reply #13 |
27. I think he's arguing that "indiscriminate murder" was actually "slightly discriminate murder" |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 06:18 PM Response to Reply #13 |
31. ^ what he said |
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Chulanowa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 11:32 PM Response to Reply #31 |
45. And I return to my original question |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 11:50 PM Response to Reply #45 |
46. No |
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Chulanowa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 12:02 AM Response to Reply #46 |
48. Defending itself by totally incinerating Tokyo and Nagasaki and Hiroshima |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 12:20 AM Response to Reply #48 |
49. Japan could have surrendered and stopped the war in a heartbeat |
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Chulanowa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 12:35 AM Response to Reply #49 |
51. They tried that. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 12:47 AM Response to Reply #51 |
52. No, they didn't. |
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DeltaLitProf (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 01:04 AM Response to Reply #52 |
53. If I'm grading this as a paper . . . |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 04:21 AM Response to Reply #53 |
58. This isn't a paper, this isn't a graduate course |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 08:51 AM Response to Reply #53 |
63. Some say academics are pompous, arrogant, and self-important |
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whathehell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 09:21 AM Response to Reply #49 |
66. And before dropping the bomb on Hiroshima, |
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dionysus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 08:28 PM Response to Reply #5 |
42. technically, in "total war" as was waged at the time, it would have been legitimate. we wouldn't |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 12:00 AM Response to Reply #42 |
47. If the US was waging total war on Japan in WWII |
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Posteritatis (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 12:05 PM Response to Reply #47 |
78. Tokyo was largely flattened by that point |
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geardaddy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 01:17 PM Response to Reply #78 |
82. The US also let the Japanese off fairly easily |
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dionysus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 08:54 PM Response to Reply #47 |
89. all i was saying was that if you were working in the war effort, you were a target, not that |
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Mendocino (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:01 PM Response to Reply #1 |
16. An estimated 250,000 Chinese civilians |
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proteus_lives (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:45 PM Response to Reply #16 |
24. 30 million since 1932. |
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REP (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 08:18 PM Response to Reply #24 |
40. Unit 731, Rape of Nanking, "comfort women," Bataan Death March.... |
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geardaddy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 11:09 AM Response to Reply #40 |
72. Bingo. |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 06:37 PM Response to Reply #16 |
33. The Japanese were killing Chinese about as fast as they could |
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Mendocino (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 05:20 PM Response to Reply #33 |
87. Well I don't "know"since I wasn't there, |
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slampoet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 02:35 PM Response to Original message |
2. Actually in Episode NINE of The Pacific they finally get around to showing some civilians and ..... |
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Ex Lurker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 04:13 PM Response to Reply #2 |
10. The Pacific is not fiction |
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Posteritatis (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:46 PM Response to Reply #2 |
25. Marines at the thin end of the wedge in the war aren't going to have contemporary views on the enemy |
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RamboLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 06:12 PM Response to Reply #25 |
30. Exactly - one of the benefits of The Pacific |
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Morning Dew (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 12:31 AM Response to Reply #30 |
50. Leckie's Delivered From Evil is excellent. |
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RamboLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 05:02 PM Response to Reply #50 |
86. Thanks - I'll check that one out as well |
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Morning Dew (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-13-10 01:01 AM Response to Reply #86 |
90. Me too! |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 04:23 AM Response to Reply #2 |
59. You have a poor grasp of history during that time, nt |
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mistertrickster (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 02:44 PM Response to Original message |
3. Correct. An oft-overlooked effect of the Allies invasion of Normandy was starvation of |
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RaleighNCDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 02:50 PM Response to Reply #3 |
4. Which continued to after the war, because of a lack of crops being planted during the fighting. |
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Diclotican (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 05:25 AM Response to Reply #4 |
62. RaleighNCDUer |
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whathehell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 03:08 PM Response to Reply #3 |
6. But that sounds like an unintended consequence. |
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mistertrickster (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:31 PM Response to Reply #6 |
21. Sure, it was unintended. But the people were just as dead. nt |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 04:23 AM Response to Reply #21 |
60. So we should have just left them in german hands? nt |
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mistertrickster (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 11:25 AM Response to Reply #60 |
76. No, I'm just saying that the civilian deaths are ignored in the story of the war. nt |
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whathehell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 09:02 AM Response to Reply #21 |
64. Of course. |
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mistertrickster (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 11:23 AM Response to Reply #64 |
75. I thought it was how war stories leave the civilian deaths out, intentional or not. nt |
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whathehell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 06:00 PM Response to Reply #75 |
88. I don't think so...I think that would go in the "War is Hell" file. |
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Posteritatis (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:49 PM Response to Reply #3 |
26. Obligatory relevant book recommendation: |
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tabasco (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 03:18 PM Response to Original message |
8. They miss the slaughter of soldiers, too. |
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tinymontgomery (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 04:46 PM Response to Reply #8 |
14. I meet and had dinner with Bruce Crandall |
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tabasco (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:23 PM Response to Reply #14 |
18. LOL. |
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tinymontgomery (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 08:11 PM Response to Reply #18 |
39. Well, maybe he was |
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RamboLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:37 PM Response to Reply #8 |
22. Problem is in a movie like this you can't fit in all that is in the book |
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pinboy3niner (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 08:23 PM Response to Reply #22 |
41. Exactly--the filmmakers had to narrow the scope . . . |
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Rex (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 04:19 PM Response to Original message |
11. Now now, we don't want to disturb people too much. |
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malaise (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 04:49 PM Response to Reply #11 |
15. True just in case it was going to be repeated |
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Rex (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:26 PM Response to Reply #15 |
19. Well what would happen if people watching these shows started |
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htuttle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:18 PM Response to Original message |
17. The rationalization for inflicting mass civilian casualties is often 'Look what you made me do' |
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HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:27 PM Response to Original message |
20. It's very disappointing. |
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tkmorris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 03:54 AM Response to Reply #20 |
56. You are a flibbertigibbet |
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Echo In Light (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 05:41 PM Response to Original message |
23. Books on the subject: Operation Hollywood |
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RamboLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 06:00 PM Response to Original message |
28. Haven't seen The Pacific though I'm reading the book |
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Posteritatis (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 06:05 PM Response to Reply #28 |
29. The series is excellent, if very hard to watch at points |
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MicaelS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 06:20 PM Response to Original message |
32. Once again the poor, innocent, Japanese |
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RamboLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 06:45 PM Response to Reply #32 |
34. Very good synopsis of the brutality of the Japanese military |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 04:28 AM Response to Reply #34 |
61. One of the top NAZIs said about dresden and hamburg |
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BakedAtAMileHigh (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 09:49 AM Response to Reply #61 |
68. so we should have killed every German citizen to end the war? |
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MicaelS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 10:55 AM Response to Reply #68 |
69. If needs must, then yes. |
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BakedAtAMileHigh (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 11:11 AM Response to Reply #69 |
73. Awesome! |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 04:36 PM Response to Reply #68 |
84. Didn't say that |
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Codeine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 03:33 AM Response to Reply #32 |
55. +10 |
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BakedAtAMileHigh (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 09:46 AM Response to Reply #32 |
67. Jesus Christ, What Terrible Idiocy; Were All Those Children Guilty Too? |
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MicaelS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 10:58 AM Response to Reply #67 |
70. What about the all the civilians killed by the German, Japanese |
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BakedAtAMileHigh (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 11:12 AM Response to Reply #70 |
74. what the fuck does that have to do with ANYTHING? |
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Lurks Often (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 02:09 PM Response to Reply #74 |
83. So what is your solution? |
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mistertrickster (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 11:41 AM Response to Reply #32 |
77. I taught in Chongqing, China, the war time capital in the 80's to drs. who had lived through |
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geardaddy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 01:16 PM Response to Reply #77 |
81. That is my experience. |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 06:52 PM Response to Original message |
35. I've always found the notion of "rules of war" to be ridiculous |
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MicaelS (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 07:09 PM Response to Reply #35 |
36. General Curtis LeMay, the architect of the bombing of Japan |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 07:22 PM Response to Reply #36 |
37. LeMay was wrong |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 07:41 PM Response to Reply #35 |
38. You don't seem like the "turn Iraq into a parking lot" type |
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Hippo_Tron (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 03:24 AM Response to Reply #38 |
54. If there weren't consequences to using nuclear weapons, I'm sure we would have |
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wtmusic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 01:14 PM Response to Reply #54 |
80. We didn't nuke Iraq because of fallout? |
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kgnu_fan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 08:44 PM Response to Original message |
43. ALL WAR sacrifices civilians - Then and Now and forever |
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MellowDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 01:07 PM Response to Reply #43 |
79. The world isn't a democracy... |
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Old Troop (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue May-11-10 08:52 PM Response to Original message |
44. My father, a WWII infantryman in the Pacific, almost never spoke |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 04:13 AM Response to Original message |
57. Don't feel sorry at all |
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neverforget (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 09:13 AM Response to Original message |
65. Of all the people killed in WW2, 58% were Allied civilians, 4% Axis civilians, |
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MrScorpio (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 10:59 AM Response to Original message |
71. Slaughterhouse Five was the exception, not the rule. nt |
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spin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed May-12-10 04:58 PM Response to Original message |
85. Japanese war crimes ... |
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JCMach1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu May-13-10 04:35 AM Response to Reply #85 |
91. +1 |
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