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Nuclear Power IS NOT CO2 free nor Wallet Friendly

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Merrill Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 04:07 PM
Original message
Nuclear Power IS NOT CO2 free nor Wallet Friendly
I would go with Hydro Power over Nuke Power any day.

WE HAVE A PROBLEM:
• More nuclear power means more disasters like Three
Mile Island and Chernobyl. Since 1986, the year of
the Chernobyl accident, there have been 200 near
nuclear accidents at 50 reactors in the U.S.
• Radioactive contamination could spread across
40,000 square miles in the event of an accident.2
• Nuclear power is expensive. The first 75 reactors
in the U.S. cost $100 billion over budget and U.S.
tax dollars paid for much of it.
• Nuclear power provides the material and know-
how for nuclear weapons.
• There is still no safe way to take care of nuclear waste
which will remain dangerous for 240,000 years.
SOLUTION:
• No New Nukes! Shut down nuclear reactors and
phase out nuclear power.

• More renewable energy such as wind and solar
power. These options combined could meet 40
percent of America’s energy needs.
=============================================

*****• Increase energy efficiency and cut the massive waste of electricity. VERY IMPORTANT Replace Windows/doors/insulate/turn off lights/go with
95% HVAC Units
==============================================

WHAT YOU CAN DO:
• Tell Congress, your governors and legislators that
you don’t want nuclear power.
• Insist that nuclear subsidies are switched to
renewable energy.
• Demand stronger energy efficiency laws.
“The idea that the atom is safe is just a
public relations trick.” 1
James Watson, Nobel Prize winner
and co-discoverer of the structure of the DNA molecule

Exposing the myths 2: Nuclear power does not produce CO2

Nuclear power is not greenhouse friendly. While electricity generated from nuclear power entails no direct emissions of CO2, the nuclear fuel cycle does release CO2 during mining, fuel enrichment and plant construction. Uranium mining is one of the most CO2 intensive industrial operations and as demand for uranium grows CO2 emissions are expected to rise as core grades decline.

According to calculations by the Öko-Institute, 34 grams of CO2 are emitted per generated kWh in Germany <4>. The results from other international research studies show much higher figures - up to 60 grams of CO2 per kWh. In total, a nuclear power station of standard size (1,250MW operating at 6,500 hours/annum) indirectly emits between 376,000 million tonnes (Germany) and 1,300,000 million tonnes (other countries) of CO2 per year. In comparison to renewable energy, nuclear power releases 4-5 times more CO2 per unit of energy produced taking account of the whole fuel cycle.

Also, with its long development time a nuclear power programme offers no short-term possibility for reducing CO2 emissions.

http://www.nirs.org/factsheets/kyotonuc....
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good luck with that.
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jdlh8894 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. Reduce CO2 !!
Stop opening beer cans!
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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm calling B.S. on this one.
Edited on Tue Jan-30-07 04:41 PM by nealmhughes
Hydro is the very essence of intrusive! Fish are trapped in dams, fish can't get upriver to spawn, land is flooded for boaters and fishermen rather than diminishing CO2, hydro is a net contributer! Think of all those bulldozers and cement mixers involved...and all those rotting trees under the lakes! Think of all the steel in the turbines! It takes coke to make steel! Coke has to be burnt! C02! Boats burn gasoline in their engines! C02!

Those Russian bomb factories that made steam as a by product are all being shutdown, and rightly so. TMI was nothing in comparison to what could have happened, and it was due to stupidity in design and operations. Believe you me, those problems are solved now in the West.

I've done more reactor startups than I could ever hope to count, and refueled a reactor and defueled it before that. I never had the knowhow to make a bomb from a bunch of slightly enriched U238/5 and fission products. As a matter, I kept myself over 20 feet above the water when near.

The only thing approximating fact in your polemic is the spent fuel problem, which I happen to endore vitrification as a solution.

Vitrification: the process of turning a substance into glass.

One reason the power plants are so expensive is that designs were still in flux in the 60s and 70s. Designs are now standardized by the big vendors, GE, Westinghouse, Skoda, CanDu, etc. and the other Western vendors.

Many people who care deeply about the envirnment also endorse nuclear power. You have no monopoly on fact, only a strong bias in your post.

See, it's like this, when a thermal neutron and a fissile atom of U235 love each other very, very much, they join together...and the end result is bunch of babies! And heat! The heat boils water, which turns to steam and spins a turbine blade, which turns a generator, which goes thru lines to where mommies and daddies live and work and you go to school!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. LOL, for somebody who's supposedly worked in the nuke field,
You sure don't seem to know much about it, nor the dangers it poses. Our problems with poor design and human error have not been solved in the West, not by a long shot. Pebble beds are proving to be unsafe, and human error is a problem that simply won't go away, nor can it be engineered out. And you're proposing vitrification as a solution for the waste problem:eyes: Talk about an energy burner, and in the end, all you are doing is postponing the waste problem for a couple of decades or generations, you aren't solving the problem, just letting our children deal with it.

Oh, and many more people who care about the enviroment don't want to go nuke at all, especially since it has been shown that wind alone can provide all of our electrical needs(1991 DOE survey of our harvestable wind energy)

Nuclear is not cheap, just massively subsidized. And it remains a dicey source at best because of two problems, first, what are you going to do with the waste? Second, you are always face the threat of human error. Sure, you can massively minimize the threat, but still and all, sooner or later we're going to have a massive accident. All it takes is one RO flipping a tagged out switch:shrug::nuke:

We would best be served if we bypassed both nukes and hydro. We can find plenty of energy in solar and wind.

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nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. 6 Years Navy Nuke (RO/SRO) 8 years OPS at a BWR and a PWR.
Don't get much more firsthand knowledge than that.

Hyman Rickover is insulted from the grave.

I'd rather have a nuke plant in my backyard -- oh, wait, I do! 25 miles east, actually three of 'em -- than a belching coal plant or a bunch of artificial lakes for drunks to play.

In a perfect world, cascading micro-hydro and advanced photovoltic cells are indeed the way to go, as are wind turbines. However, we are talking real life here, where Duke, TVA, the Southern Group, etc. are hand in glove with GE, Westinghouse, etc. and their donors in Congress.

Getting rid of cars and trucks is a great first step -- but what cities are made for walking or biking these days? Few and far between. Energy autonomy is a goal for which we should all strive.

I'd rather see vitrification than barrels of waste in storage and new spent fuel pools being built. Damn you fission products!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Then you should know as well as I do
That you can't vitrify every thing, and there's a lot more to hot waste than fuel rods. Swipes, paper, the random tool in the pool. Too much waste that can't be vitrified, including the reactor itself, once it's been decommed. No, I'd rather not see leaking barrels at the bottom of Yucca Mt., I'd rather see no nuke waste at all. That's why I'm in favor of wind and solar.

And if there's money in it, corporations will follow. That's why GE is the number one US corporation in the production of wind turbines. There's money to be made, more all the time. As far as autos go, well, biodiesel seems to be the best possible solution. A fellow named Michael Briggs at the University of New Hampshire figured out that we would only need 15,000 sq miles of ponds to produce enough algae, as biodiesel feedstock, to fulfill all of our fuel needs. And a lot of that sq mileage could be used in cooperation with wastewater treatment plants, using the algae as a first step of water treatment.

And one other thing, nukes aren't run on a renewable resource. The US uranium reserve is dwindling rapidly, mostly as a result of the US foolishly putting it all on tips of bombs. Thus, once again, we would be at the behest of another foreign country for our energy, specifically South Africa. We've been down this road before, and look where it's gotten us. Let's instead do the right thing now, and start building a domestic energy structure that is clean, renewable, and not dependent on any other country than our own. It seems to make sense to me.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. actually, no, we can't
(find enough energy in solar and wind, that is) it's an interesting concept, but there simply isn't enough solar energy hitting the surface of the earth, even at full conversion capacity, to come even close to meeting our needs.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Sorry, but you're wrong
According to a 1991 DOE survey of our harvestable wind energy, there is enough harvestable wind energy in three states, North Dakota, Kansas and Texas, to power the entire US, including factoring in for growth, through the year 2030. And remember, this is with fifteen year old tech, turbines have become much more effiecient, tip speeds have lowered since then.

And yes, there is plenty of solar energy hitting the earth to provide for our energy needs. The trouble isn't the supply, it is the state of technology for PV panels. Right now were using a silicon base for our PV panels, and it only delivers at 18% efficiency at best. We need a material delivering at over fifty percent to start filling our energy needs. And they have several right now in testing that seem to fill that bill. I imagine within a few years there will be a big breakthrough, and we'll have highly efficient solar panels.

You keep arguing your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours. Let's stop doing that.
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Merrill Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Way too much money involved in Nuke Power for many reasons
Nuclear Power is still expensive to generate and build:

http://www.nirs.org/factsheets/productiontaxcredits.htm

http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/pnucpwr.asp

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0519-04.htm

Additionally:

How can we possibly be thinking about building new nuclear reactors? Just one of the following would be reason enough for "No New Nukes!"

Bush's Plan: Taxpayers Foot the Bill

You'd have thought that the prospect of suicidal terrorists attempting to blow up a nuclear power plant would have made the nuclear industry the Bush Administration think twice before offering up a second generation of nuclear reactors at taxpayer expense.
However, despite the nuclear industry's abysmal economics and atrocious safety record and the added threat of nuclear terrorism, President Bush and the U.S. Senate are prepared to dole out billions of taxpayer dollars to Vice President Cheney's friends to construct new nuclear reactors.

Never mind that these new reactor designs are unsafe, uneconomic and unnecessary. The Bush administration is willing to have the U.S. taxpayer split the cost for new nuclear reactors that the industry would never build on its own.

Bush plans to provide the nuclear industry billions of dollars in guaranteed loans. However, the Congressional Budget Office has found that the risk of nuclear-industry default on these government loans is extremely high, well above 50%.

An Economic Disaster

If the nuclear industry and Wall Street financiers are unwilling to assume the economic risk of constructing new nuclear power plants, why should the American taxpayer?

Perhaps the Senate is betting that these new reactors will be better than the one hundred and three reactors that already exist? But consider the economic and safety meltdown experienced by the nuclear industry over the past thirty years. The Department of Energy (DOE) compared nuclear construction cost estimates to the actual final costs for 75 reactors. The original cost estimate was $45 billion. The actual cost was $145 billion! Forbes magazine recognized that this "failure of the U.S. nuclear power program ranks as the largest managerial disaster in business history, a disaster of monumental scale." According to Forbes, "only the blind, or the biased, can now think the money has been well spent." Despite the $100 billion cost overrun, Senator Pete Domenici wants to again give the nuclear industry billions in taxpayer dollars and guaranteed loans.

However, according to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO), the prospects for a second generation of nuclear reactors are equally abysmal. According to the CBO, the Department of Energy could provide loan guarantees for up to 50% of the construction costs for seven new nuclear power plants. However, the CBO considers the risk of default on these loans to be very high - well above 50 percent. It is little wonder that the three nuclear corporations that are attempting to site new nuclear reactors, Dominion Resources, Entergy and Exelon have stated that the numbers for new nuclear construction just don't add up.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. There are not many people who are environmentalists who endorse nukes
Edited on Tue Jan-30-07 05:23 PM by Dems Will Win
that is a propaganda lie. There are only a couple of true scientists, the rest are all FORMER environmentalists -- or not even -- and IN THE PAY OF THE NUKE INDUSTRY!

Since 2000, the nuclear power industry has pumped millions into a PR campaign touting nuclear energy as the solution to global warming. There have even been a handful of prominent environmentalists who have “reconsidered” nuclear power, primarily Stewart Brand, the editor of The Whole Earth Catalog.

Yet unknown to most, Brand is now a paid consultant to nuclear energy companies for the last several years, including PG&E, Southern California Edison and Duke Power. Another “convert” is Patrick Moore, who left Greenpeace 20 years ago, and is today paid by the so-called Clean And Safe Energy Coalition, financed entirely through the Nuclear Energy Institute.

Moore’s clients also include The Vinyl Institute, for his defense of the polluting plastic industry and he has spoken at public hearings for the timber industry, joking that “clear-cuts are just temporary meadows”. The late Hugh Montefiore is a third environmentalist, ejected from the UK Friends of the Earth when he went over to the pro-nuclear side, and then there’s James Lovelock, the co-founder of the Gaia Hypothesis. If we leave aside the two paid spokesmen, that makes only two prominent environmentalists, and only Lovelock is actually a scientist.

There’s good reason so few have changed their position on nuclear power.

How many nuclear plants would we really need to make a dent in global warming? The number is in the thousands. The total global installed electrical capacity on Earth is 3800 Gigawatts, while nuclear reactors worldwide were at 368 GW (installed in 2005). Installed wind power stands at 60 GW in 2005, while solar is a mere 5.5 GW installed. Hydro is 740 GW installed on Earth. Most of the rest is fossil fuel, especially coal and natural gas. A hundred new coal plants each are currently planned for both the US and China, which is true folly. Oil meanwhile primarily goes to heat and transportation, now being sucked up at the global rate of a billion barrels every 10 to 11 days.

Assuming we went from gasoline-powered to electric or hydrogen cars, we would need around 2,000 1 GW nuclear plants worldwide to really end the reign of fossil fuel here in the present. Yet the real carbon emission crisis lies in emerging Third World economies, which are projected to be half the increase in carbon through 2025. Thousands and thousands of dirty village diesel generators will soon be coming online, some funded by the World Bank and other agencies.

Any nuclear solution to global warming would thus have to replace these small diesels, which are spread out over vast regions. Many of the new nuclear reactors would need to be smaller 100 MW units, with construction of long transmission lines to all those villages and towns. After figuring in future needs and this Third World diesel village generator problem, we would need additional hundreds of big 1 GW plants and then several thousand smaller facilities spread out all over the Third World. But do we really want thousands of 100 MW reactors in places like Burkina Faso, Niger and Laos? And who would pay to construct those unprofitable transmission lines going everywhere?

In fact, trying to reduce carbon by building thousands of new nuclear power plants would clearly put us on the wrong road to planetary survival.

Here’s why. There is only so much high-grade uranium ore so far found on Earth, and its price has soared in recent years from $7 to $30 a pound, with some analysts predicting $110 a pound within 5 years. At current rates of use, all the known high-grade reserves are used up in a few decades. Having many new plants, producing for example 50% of the world’s electricity rather than 16%, means that the reasonably priced high-grade stuff will be used up in less than a decade. Then we are stuck with refining and enriching low-grade ore, containing the vast majority of uranium on Earth.

It turns out that with low-grade, we would have to mine 5 times as much ore, transport 5 times more, and process 5 times more--all done with fossil fuel for 30 to 40 years to keep the plants going. Uranium processing also releases tons of CFCs into the atmosphere, a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Plus all nuclear plant construction would be accomplished with fossil fuel.

According to a 2003 study by Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen and Philip Smith, when it is all added up, the high-grade ore nuclear fuel cycle produces only three times fewer greenhouse gases than modern natural-gas power stations. Low-grade uranium ore would make the carbon trade-off negligible. Nuclear is not greenhouse gas-free. (http://www.stormsmith.nl/).

Another question arises over nuclear power. Is it wise to create more radioactive waste, when the Yucca Mountain Waste Site—legal capacity 70,000 tons--is already “full” thanks to the 80,000 tons of waste currently stored near the 104 U.S. nuclear reactors? And Yucca may never even open. How can we start producing many, many times the waste, when we still can’t open one single waste depository?

Given Chernobyl and Three Mile Island, part of the nuclear industry’s PR campaign is to convince a skeptical public there is a new design for a reactor that cannot melt down. This is the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor—but there are several issues the industry does not tell the public about the PBMR.

Pebble reactors work by harnessing the heat released by radioactive pebbles the size of tennis balls, which move slowly through the reactor core. It’s true they are harder to go into meltdown, but pebble bed nuclear reactors can erupt in a graphite fire. David Lochbaum of The Union of Concerned Scientists explains:

“There is no free lunch. While it may not melt down, it could catch on fire. The pebble bed is like the Chernobyl reactor in that it uses an awful lot of graphite. None of our reactors operating in the United States use graphite in the core. Graphite is just carbon. If the carbon catches on fire, it's pretty hard to put out. It's particularly hard if you're using airflow to cool the reactor, which the pebble bed does. If you have a fire and you stop the airflow, you also stop the heat removal. So you may stop the fire and start the meltdown. You may not be able to get `fireproof' and `meltdown proof’, you may have to pick one or the other.”

Unfortunately, pebble bed reactors also generate 10 times the waste for the same amount of electricity. When Stewart Brand was informed of this, he replied: “It may well be true about the pebble bed and waste. But then, okay, back to the old drawing board!" Yet Brand went right back to touting pebble reactors at the industry events he is hired to speak at.

Worst of all, the corporations and the government have convinced themselves that pebble nuclear reactors are “inherently safe”. So they plan to build each one without containment buildings--allowing them to add reactor module after reactor module. The truth is that PBMRs are air-cooled, so they need convection--which a containment building would hinder. The industry continues to tell the public the pebble reactors are “inherently safe”.

Yet as Edward Teller, the father of the H-bomb said, "Sooner or later a fool will prove greater than the proof even in a foolproof system."

When the Germans built a working 300 MW pebble reactor, the lack of a containment building proved to be a real mistake on May 4, 1986, when a defective fuel pebble got stuck in the feeder tube and caught fire. It is in the end impossible to assure that every nuclear pebble is perfect, with no defects, and that’s what they need to be.

The resulting graphite inferno contaminated a 2-kilometer area around the plant on the Ruhr River in Hamm-Uentrop. Germany shut the plant down permanently, citing it as “unsafe”. Pebble reactor manufacturers have yet to address the possibility of graphite fires in any of their proposals to governments. They simply ignore it.

Another real issue is a terrorist attack Any nuclear reactor is subject to one. The government is predicting that the War on Terror is going to last decades. Unfortunately, in mock terrorist attacks conducted by the NRC, fully half of the terror gangs succeeded in gaining control of the plant’s safety systems. If they had been real instead of mock terrorists, control of plant safety could have lead to meltdowns or releases. Recommendations for increased security have included the National Guard being deployed around each plant to restrict land, water and air access.

On September 11, 2001, Mohammed Atta himself flew United Flight 11 right down the Hudson River, thankfully passing the Indian Point power plant. If Atta had decided to descend and had rammed the jetliner into the unhardened building housing the used fuel rod pool, the resulting catastrophe would have been centered in the Hudson Valley. The lethality of the resulting fire and its smoke, laced with the radioactivity of decades worth of fuel-rods, must be understood to comprehend what the threat of a terrorist attack is all about. Obviously, building thousands of nuclear plants would greatly increase the risk of terrorist attack or take-over.

Meanwhile, the top US climate modeler, Dr. James Hansen, gives us just 10 years to stabilize carbon emissions before warming is irreversible. If so, nuclear reactors are not the answer. Previously, it took 10 to15 years just to get a single nuclear plant permitted, and that would only be worse today. In addition, the new pebble reactors would require tens of billions of research dollars and decades of R&D to commercialize. It would all be too late.

Then there are the unfair subsidies nuclear energy must receive to make a profit, over $140 billion in subsidies over the years (NIRS). Even with these, no one has financed a new nuclear plant in the US since Three Mile Island released enough radiation to trigger the evacuation of small children and pregnant women from Harrisburg on March 30, 1979.

All this for a technology that was initially advertised as being a power source that would one day be “Too Cheap To Meter”. The catastrophic liability insurance, decommissioning, uranium enrichment and waste disposal tabs are mostly picked up by the American taxpayers, sometimes camouflaged by lumping them in with the nuclear weapons program. There should be a level economic playing field, without subsidies for obsolete reactors.

So if nuclear reactors are not the answer, what’s the solution to global warming? In fact, we need a mix of solutions: primarily conservation, wind, solar, some hydro and natural gas (with sequestered carbon).

Conservation is not “wishful thinking”, as Dick Cheney said. Europeans, for example, use half the energy Americans do. Conservation can reduce US energy use substantially, even more if we switch to plug-in hybrid cars that charge with the wasted “off-peak amps” produced by our base-load power plants each and every night. That’s right, every night there is excess base-load capacity, as much as 30% excess in most regions, which would easily charge much of the US commuter fleet for the average 25 mile per day trip. All without adding a single power plant or using any extra fuel.

Conservation equipment has been shown to cost only 2-3 cents a kWh, thus every penny spent on nuclear reactors wastes a least twice the money compared to spending it on switching to more efficient lightbulbs, building methods, etc. Amory Lovins of The Rocky Mountain Institute: “buying nuclear power instead makes global warming worse. Why? If delivering a new nuclear kWh cost only (say) 6¢, while saving a kWh cost (pessimistically) 3¢, then the 6¢ spent on the nuclear kWh could instead have bought two efficiency kWh.”

Meanwhile, wind power is predicted to far outpace nuclear power increases over the coming years. Amory Lovins explains the new shape of the energy market: “The International Energy Agency forecast in 2003 that in 2010, wind could add nine times as much capacity as nuclear added in 2004, or 84 times its planned 2010 addition. Eight years hence, just wind plus industry-forecast PVs could surpass installed global nuclear capacity. The market increasingly resembles a 1995 Shell scenario with half of global energy, and virtually all growth, coming from renewables by mid-century--about what it would take, with conservative efficiency gains, to stabilize atmospheric carbon.”

In addition, there is hydroelectricity, with much capacity around the world. 20 GW of hydro-electric power in the US alone can be supplied by current dams which right now have no generators (FERC), so no new dams need be built.

At the same time, modern combined cycle gas generators, with only a third the emissions of a coal plant, can support the bulk of the transition to lower carbon levels quickly. Natural gas is unfortunately necessary as a temporary measure in the response to the crisis of global warming. Natural gas prices will drop from current levels, as supply quadruples with the completion of several LNG terminals. Plus there are now sequestration methods that trap the carbon and inject it into underground geological formations, successfully done in Norway. Later, when we are creating “green” hydrogen from water, these temporary natural gas facilities can be converted to that.

Finally, there is a fantastic new breakthrough in solar technology.

Solar power has just leapt from 11% efficiency to 40%. Just as a magnifying glass can burn a hole in a newspaper, a set of magnifying lenses can increase the amount of electricity produced by a special solar “chip”. In fact, a working prototype has operated for a year without problems in El Cajon, California, churning out 6.6 kilowatts from a 23-foot diameter, floating circular platform.

Currently, five acres of panels are needed to produce one Megawatt. Within a year the new technology, from a company named Pyron Solar, will reduce that to a mere one acre per Megawatt. The National Renewable Energy Lab in July 2005 put out a press release predicting that concentrating photovoltaics will soon be cost-competitive with fossil-fuel, lowering solar to just $3 a watt installed. Ordinary solar panels today are $5 to $6 a watt or more--without any installation.

The great thing is, a practical concentrating solar PV device is here now, not 15 years from now. Plus the Boeing-Spectrolab chips work on gallium, so there is no chance of being held back by the current silicon shortage that is plaguing solar power. In fact, the European Science Agency released a report in 2004 stating that nuclear power was apparently no longer needed to avoid global warming, as new breakthroughs such as the concentrating photovoltaic prototype by Pyron promised to alter the energy landscape.

So let’s not get distracted and waste our money on building thousands of pebble nuclear reactors that each generate ten times the radioactive waste, in a process that ends up emitting greenhouse gas anyway. The mix of conservation and the energy solutions given above makes sense and nuclear reactors are not needed.

Our country and the world needs to go on a war footing over global warming. If the Allies won World War II and beat the fascists, we can pull together in the same way and overcome this challenge with energy initiatives around the globe.

Let’s have community conservation drives. We can set local conservation goals and use the media, events and local organizing to meet them. And let’s spend our time and money on the real solutions of renewables, the emergency gas plants and especially the fantastic new solar breakthrough in concentrating photovoltaics.

For it is this exciting new solar technology that finally gives us a fighting chance against global warming. So get out your magnifying glass and take a closer look--because here comes the Sun!
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Those facts are mostly incorrect.
For starters, there is indeed a large and growing number of people in the environmental movement embracing nuclear power, and expressing regret over their anti-nuclear past. The founder of Greenpeace is one of them. You can find ordinary people who feel that way right here on DU. The fact that you no longer consider them environmentalists if they're not tilting at windmills doesn't change their stance.

I won't bother going through your entire message, because I really don't have the time or the energy. But suffice to say that if you look at solar power with an independent eye, not trying to massage the numbers to make it work, you'll realize that it's pretty much a hopeless cause. To supply even just the electrical demand for the US, you'd need to pave over an area 214 miles by 214 miles. That's a little over half the state of Nevada. Add in roads, maintainence areas, storage, distribution, inefficency, and you're talking about covering over most of Nevada. And that doesn't even address power for electric vehicles. Which is to say nothing of the unprecedented strip-mining that would have to be done, as well as the hundreds of thousands of tonnes of petrochemicals produced, to build that many solar panels and the batteries that support them.

Those wattage figures are off, too. Five acres of solar panels don't generate 1 megawatt. They generate 1 megawatt for the roughly 3-6 hours in which they have optimal sun. That's between one quarter and one eigth of a power plant which generates 1 megawatt continuously.

When it comes right down to it, the only two near future solutions that present themselves are fossil fuels and nuclear power. I prefer the one that has killed less people.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. That's really unfair. You say my facts are incorrect but you say you did
not read the whole post. Then I debunk Stewart Brand and Moore and you justify your "many environmentalists" claim by citing the 2 I just debunked! Then you say there are many DUers who are pro-nuclear!

That's pathetic.

Name 2 real environmentalists beyond Lovelock and Hugh Montefiore -- but they have to be real environmental scientists, real ecologists. You can't...

As for the new tech, the solar concentrating PV gets 1 Mw per acre (in peak sunshine as you say--but that's exactly when we need the extra power for air conditioners in the summer). At 640 MW per square mile, we only need 500 square miles -- or an area 25 miles by 20 miles -- of CPV to equal 320 Gigawatts. This would be in the Southwest desert.

But that would equal one third of all electrical generation in the US

In the real world, such a huge solar farm in the Southwest would not be built due to the need to build farms near the cities that use them.

But you begin to get an idea of how we can switch over to a mix of solar, wind and 20 Gw of hydro waiting unused at current dams.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. What about all the nuclear waste?
:shrug:

What about the effects it has on the environment?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nuclear Power is inefficient and has never been ready for prime time
I have a much better source than toxic mineral deposits - because that's all Nuclear power is, really.

Go to a source that is constantly burning, and nearer to us than we think: geothermal.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Europe would disagree with you.
And geothermal energy is incredibly inefficient, not to mention that there's not nearly enough energy density to provide a viable alternative in energy production.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. And the waste?
How do you deal with Nuclear Waste?

Geothermal, no waste
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Thank you, Wraith
for, imho, the most informative and clear-headed posts in this thread.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. Your information is little better than propaganda.
"More nuclear power means more disasters like Three Mile Island and Chernobyl."

No, it doesn't. For starters, there hasn't been a major nuclear accident anywhere in twenty years. The only true major nuclear disaster, Chernobyl, was the result of human error.

"Nuclear power is expensive. The first 75 reactors in the U.S. cost $100 billion over budget and U.S. tax dollars paid for much of it."

Less expensive, however, than coal, hydro, solar, wind, gas, or almost any other kind of power.

"Nuclear power provides the material and know-how for nuclear weapons."

So? We already have plenty of nuclear weapons, thank you. And actually, it doesn't neccessarily provide material for nukes. Reactor grade material can't be used in bombs.

"There is still no safe way to take care of nuclear waste which will remain dangerous for 240,000 years."

Certainly there are safe ways to get rid of it. And it should be pointed out that a nuclear plant produces about 30 tons of waste per year, compared to thousands of tons of waste released from a coal plant, most of which isn't radioactive, but it certainly still is highly toxic, and which results in the premature deaths of over 40,000 people a year in the US--ten times the death toll of Chernobyl.

Also, are you or are you not aware that a coal fired power plant releases more radioactive material into the atmosphere than the amount of contained waste that a nuclear plant produces? And don't start talking about solar power. Until you're willing to pave over most of Nevada to get the square mileage of solar panels we need to supply just our electrical demand, solar power is a pipe dream.

Nuclear power isn't an ideal solution by any means, but given the choice between it and coal, I'll take nuclear. And it annoys me the amount of outright lies and mythology perpetuated by the anti-nuclear people in their jihad against all things atomic.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Always with the false choices, why?
We don't have to go with coal or nukes, both are foolish and polluting. Instead, why not go with wind. We have more than enough harvestable wind energy to fulfill all of our electrical needs into the forseeable future. Why do you insist on this false either/or choice. We have many others that will supply our needs and are clean, renewable, and cheap.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
11. I find it funny nobody wants to talk about the elephant in the room.
Edited on Tue Jan-30-07 05:47 PM by Selatius
We speculate about alternative fuel sources, but the last time somebody in a position of power actually said that maybe we should cut back consumption, it was the 1970s. Since then, nobody brought that message to the table. Oh, we all want a new source of fuel to sustain our current lifestyle, but pour scorn on a president who actually tells you to wear a sweater and run the heater less in winter!

Solar and wind are simply insufficient to sustain current energy consumption levels and solar panels operate at roughly 15% efficiency. We need to radically increase the fuel efficiency of our processes. If we fail to do that, then the only solution is to cut back consumption of energy and accept a lower standard of living. In the summer time, maybe it's best you learn to tolerate a hotter house. I'm not saying you should turn off the A/C altogether but that you should learn to use it less. In the winter, maybe you should learn to wear a sweater and run the heater a little less.

If you wish to build a new home for yourself, might I suggest a geothermal heat pump sunk into the earth to help reduce your energy consumption level further?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-30-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. And that's all well and good, but we're still talking percentage declines.
There's only so much that can be done with changing to fluorescent light bulbs (done that), turning down your furnace (done that too) or AC (don't have one), and that sort of thing. We live in an advanced society, and the price that we pay for having the technology that we do is energy. We need a hell of a lot of it to run our civilization. I know it's popular around here to suggest that we're this horribly lavish decadent western culture, and there's some truth to that, but there's more truth in the fact that this is what civilization is. When we domesticated animals, it was done to harvest the energy they provided, in the form of labor. Every advance we have depends to some degree on increasing our energy, and while there's a lot that can be done for efficiency, it's not going to eliminate our needs altogether.
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meldroc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-31-07 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
22. Thorium nuclear reactors, maybe?
Edited on Wed Jan-31-07 01:15 AM by meldroc
I'm not a fan of current nuclear reactors, for the reasons given above, but I remember reading an article about the potential for using thorium instead of uranium as a nuclear fuel.

Aha, found it...

New Age Nuclear

Nuclear energy produces no greenhouse gases, but it has many drawbacks. Now a radical new technology based on thorium promises what uranium never delivered: abundant, safe and clean energy - and a way to burn up old radioactive waste.

What if we could build a nuclear reactor that offered no possibility of a meltdown, generated its power inexpensively, created no weapons-grade by-products, and burnt up existing high-level waste as well as old nuclear weapon stockpiles? And what if the waste produced by such a reactor was radioactive for a mere few hundred years rather than tens of thousands? It may sound too good to be true, but such a reactor is indeed possible, and a number of teams around the world are now working to make it a reality. What makes this incredible reactor so different is its fuel source: thorium.


It's promising. Not environmentally perfect - the byproducts of thorium fission are still nasty and problematic to dispose of, but not nearly as nasty as those from conventional reactors. I also like the idea of using a thorium reactor to react the truly nightmarish nuclear wastes like the plutonium isotopes that have a half-life of thousands of years, which need structures that last longer than the Pyramids to contain them. React them in a thorium reactor instead and convert them into less nasty byproducts that aren't nearly so problematic to dispose of.
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