WTF? Obama is Privatizing Public Housing?

If this is true at all it really makes me angry.

http://blog.buzzflash.com/contributors/3216

Below the Radar: HUD is Trying to Privatize and Mortgage Off All of America’s Public Housing

GEORGE LAKOFF FOR BUZZFLASH

The Obama Administration’s move to the right is about to give conservatives a victory they could not have anticipated, even under Bush. HUD, under Obama, submitted legislation called PETRA to Congress that would result in the privatization of all public housing in America.

The new owners would charge ten percent above market rates to impoverished tenants, money that would be mostly paid by the US government (you and me, the taxpayers). To maintain the property, the new owners would take out a mortgage for building repair and maintenance (like a home equity loan), with no cap on interest rates.

With rents set above market rates, the mortgage risk would be attractive to banks. Either they make a huge profit on the mortgages paid for by the government. Or if the government lowers what it will pay for rents, the property goes into foreclosure. The banks get it and can sell it off to developers.

Sooner or later, the housing budget will be cut back and such foreclosures will happen. The structure of the proposal and the realities of Washington make it a virtual certainty.

The banks and developers make a fortune, with the taxpayers paying for it. The public loses its public housing property. The impoverished tenants lose their apartments, or have their rents go way up if they are forced into the private market. Homelessness increases. Government gets smaller. The banks and developers win. It is a Bank Bonanza! The poor and the public lose.

And a precedent is set. The government can privatize any public property: Schools, libraries, national parks, federal buildings — just as has begun to happen in California, where the right-wing governor has started to auction off state property and has even suggested selling off the Supreme Court building.

...now, anything's possible with this mis-administration.

I have been fighting unsuccessfully, for 5 years to get my SS disability. My cardiologist says I am not able to work. Anyway, 3 months ago, I was forced to move into subsidized housing. I signed a 1 year lease. Last month, a new management company (same owner) took over the apartments. They have demanded that all tenants sign new leases. These leases increase the rent, allow no "grace period for payments...etc.. They completely gut any protections and agreements made by the previous lease. I have refused to sign. I get harassed daily from the "new managers" to sign this lease. I told them to take me to court. I have already signed a legal lease, and I will not give up my rights under that lease. Most tenants (all that I know of) were bullied into signing the new lease. Obama, I assume, is supportive of this new effort to increase homelessness and deny any relief to the poor. He is not the same person that I worked hard to get elected. My choices seem to be suicide or suicide. I worked as a carpenter since I was 15. I finally joined a Union and improved my finances but worked harder and in much more dangerous settings. Eventually, my body broke. Without my disability from SS, I cannot retire from the Union and get my benefits. Of course SS says I can not do manual work, but, I can be a "ticket taker", honestly. I can get back on a construction job and die or when my temporary Union disability benefits expire in July, I can die from lack of medicines or medical care. Forced suicide either way. What a great country.

You have no obligation to sign. Try to figure out, however, what it is worth to them for you to sign. Maybe you can say "I'll sign if you pay me X".

of St. Ronnie. Just look at how many are defending governments "hands off" policy with the Gulf!

I guess politicians want to be out of a job.

No, actually they still want that job, but only to award contracts to buds and cronies.

Old way:
Government services (taxpayers' money) --> people.

New way:
Government services (taxpayers' money) --> corporations to "oversee programs" ---> people.

See?

With 4 corporations owning the voting machines and the programming of those machines, and the supreme court turning loose all of corporate America on the media during elections, we're in control of elections....how????

Obama being the culprit here only needs to spin a web of eloquent words and the masses stew in his bliss. People that haven't figuered it out by now Obama is more of a Republican then even Bush was and where have all the war protesters gone? Even as timelines slip and wars are escalated he spins a tale of peace and the lemmings believe. Open your eyes no one is holding anyone accountable.

and one reason why Washington ever does anything serious about poverty.

WHERE are they busing these people in from?

WHO were those people who stood in line for 5, 7 even 11 hours???? Clue: It sure as hell wasn't the muddleclass or rich!

You need to either PROVE that these poor people AREN'T voting (which is why the RW tries to get rid of voters in poor neighborhoods, or you need to drop that ridiculous mantra.

However, if Dems don't start taking us seriously and working on our behalf, this will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. THEN you can cry about the abysmal election results.

Please..... things are bad now, and this will be even worse.

Please.... work to defeat this!

It only seems like he's behaving like a Republican. That's the beauty of it!

I'm gettin' a bit dis-illusioned here.....

:smoke:

:evilgrin: Obama a socialist. :rofl: :silly:

brilliant chess move.

:eyes:

:crazy:

... we should close shop and transfer everything to private interests. Because they have done such a magnificent job with the largest real estate crash in decades.

:applause:

When you have, get back to me and tell me how well the status quo has worked out for the people who live in these hellholes.

I have, get back to me and tell me how private enterprise has worked out for the people who have to live in the streets. See, I can play this game too.

BTW, I have been in projects, ferrying kids back and forth when I was a volunteer mentor in college and my uni had an after school program for inner city kids. So don't make monumentally condescending assumptions while trying to find tangential arguments to defend your false dichotomies. I also volunteered plenty of hours to renovation work of public housing.

I get fucking tired of all the GOP talking point bullshit. Conservatives cut down all sorts of funding for public programs... to the point of making them useless, and then with a straight face they say how "public programs don't work." Of course, they have the cure: their very own private solutions, which require more tax dollars than the original figures they were so willing to cut... all out of pure "coincidence" I am sure.

And then the "geniuses" come over thinking the solution to these problems is to add a private middle man to distribute public dollars, and whose only value added is to add insane overheads to tax dollars, money which could have been better spent if they had been used directly. Talk about creating the disease to sell the cure. Good grief.

Cheers.

parrot GOP talking points in order to defend their president. When President Obama was elected many of us abandoned our principles and went completely insane.

and anyone who believes most corporations have any interest in "the public good" is damn fool. sure...let's have blackwater run public housing...that should work just fine :sarcasm:

In fact, my wife helped run a family shelter in downtown Manchester for several years.

Next question.

get through to people.

:grr:

When you have, get back to us and tell us how well the status quo has worked out for the people who live in these hellholes.

I spend a fair amount of my professional life representing tenants in substandard housing in their legal proceedings.

Next question.

I think a huge factor in why poor folk keep suffering is our inabiilty to have full representation in the legal system.

As a matter of fact, I posted this the other day (and it sunk because Justice just isn't that popular among "progressives")

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8384985

you'd rather privatize. 3D chess right? Disgusting.

Thank you for your words of wisdom. So often we poor folk feel like we are alone in this battle.

In another thread you said you served 3 terms as a State Rep. Is there nothing you can do about govt. housing in your state? :shrug:

Public Housing Funds Slashed; New Plan to Privatize
By ALYSSA KATZ,
The Fiscal Times

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Issues/The-Economy/2010/05/20/Public-Housing-Funds-Slashed-New-Plan-to-Privatize.aspx

NEWARK, N.J. -- The John W. Hyatt Court public housing project is an unlikely refuge for a mother and two young children. Jets roar overhead en route to the nearby airport, while traffic on New Jersey’s Route 1/9 zooms alongside the cluster of three-story brick buildings. Drug gangs roost here in between police sweeps, and just last month, a former resident was shot and killed in the asphalt courtyard.

Seven years ago preschool teacher Nancy Mincey and her sons were on the verge of homelessness. Had it not been for Hyatt Court, Mincey said, “we would have had to pray we could find a shelter.” The security that Mincey and the other residents have may not last. Four years ago, soon after spending more than $1 million to upgrade Hyatt Court’s boilers, the city’s housing authority determined that the Hyatt Court and seven other aging complexes had “outlived their useful life expectancy.” Two of the eight complexes, with 1,005 apartments between them, would need $91 million worth of repairs just to be brought up to minimum standards. The city resolved to tear most of them down (including five buildings in Hyatt Court). Newark Housing Authority director Keith Kinard recently testified before Congress that he doesn’t even have enough funds in his budget to complete the four demolitions approved so far....

But public housing in New Jersey and a host of other states is about to face the brutal reality of massive budget cuts as the Great Recession targets the most vulnerable among us. The city housing authority, unable to come up with the nearly $500 million needed for repairs and improvements, has received federal approval to tear down Hyatt Court and three other dilapidated complexes that were built in the 1940s. Since 1995, local housing authorities across the country have eliminated about 165,000 decrepit apartments in the face of a repair backlog totaling an estimated $22 billion.

The Obama administration is arguing that there is another way. Seeking to stop the demolition and improve living conditions for more than 1.1 million households, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) is pressing to fundamentally change the strategy for low-income housing. The idea: Get local public housing authorities to operate like private landlords.

(more at link)

.................

This is terrible news for so many already hit and some will have to go homeless now! What the H is the reasoning for this?

:freak:

Should be obvious. We only favor helping people if someone makes a profit. No profit? Fuggedaboutit!

nothing to make off of a bunch of people that are flat-assed broke is there? Nope, not a single dime left after paying out your Section 8 tab for the month.

I've been there yes. I was damn glad it was there when I needed it. I would have ended up out on the street blind and broken without it. I am not exaggerating either.

What's wrong Obama, no money for the coffers from the broke and downtrodden? Geez. :grr:

:kick: & recommend.

Some of us were smart enough not to buy that line of bullshit, but still get attacked for it.

when he was trying to have a conversation with him about poverty. What was that, again? "Yeah, yeah. I care about all that." Kind of makes you swoon at the level of compassion and empathy.

Thanks for that quote from him. :puke:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

We all know how true that turned out to be.

will suddenly find the money to fund "studies" to figure out "why".

AND, should someone FAIL in their attempt, they will spend THOUSANDS locking them up.

But they don't have $$ for housing.

Yup, "studies" = profits.

Locking people up = profits.

I hope that they don't operate like the last private (corporate) landlords I had....they were one step above slumlords.

But they sure wanted those top "market rates"!

Blame Greenspan and the Federal Reserve for the Housing Bubble, which led to massive tax increases, which led to 9000 dollars a year on a duplex for those that bought "Income" property withoout bothering to calculate the 4,000 dollar a monet mortagag, and 10,000 dollars a year taxes, plus at least 2500 dollars a year maintenance.

These poor souls find that they are underwater and rents barely cover the costs, and in many cases, they have to do it out of their own pocket.

Of course, this happens because money management is simply not available in our educational system. The majority of Americans are left to fend for themselves to learn the hard way, and when they do, the banks win, and they are left with three stones.

When the fundamentals are so out of whack such as they are now, even this ridiculous proposal by the DLC Janus Obama will fail.

Good luck with that, mister one term.

especially about the whole housing bubble thing. It truly was a scam!

I don't blame all landlords. We currently rent from private owners, and no problem at all. However, the last place was one of those huge corporate conglomerates, who were too busy snatching up every distressed, dilapidated high and mid-rise in the metro area to bother with maintaining any of their other properties. That kind of 'management company' unfortunately gives all landlords a bad name.

This economy is in real bad shape, and the big picture continues to be ignored by this administration. As far as your 'mister one term', he doesn't seem to be able to or want to make all those 'hard choices' that he continually preached about during his campaign, and I couldn't agree with you more on that assessment.

This is Larry Summers style restructuring - right out of the IMF handbook. This is what happens to Third World countries that fall into distress - they privatize public housing, education, and all other public services that used to be subsidized by gov't revenues.

Welcome to Russia after the Fall.

unwritten law somewhere that doesn't allow for money management classes in high school.

Damn, I wish I could remember who insisted on this....one of the old robber barons, I believe.

If the shoe fits... :hi:

or possibly 'vulture' landlords; either shoe would fit that outfit quite nicely.

:)

Someone on another thread got a kick out of my phrase "vultural values"....

I saw a kettle(?) of vultures day before yesterday, and have had those damn things on my mind ever since.....

:eyes:

Apparently the way I see it, is that former HUD residents will be forced to move to homes that are far from their jobs but cheap or pay higher rents in another home where they live via a private landlord.

recession and long term federal budget shortfalls have required severe cuts across the board- this is a reality that is unfortunate, but unavoidable. I would personally wish to see more cuts to defense than housing, but this doesn't seem to be an actual cut, as much as an alternative funding option. In the linked article is quotes an official from the Urban Institute, by no means a RW organization (www.urban.org/about/trustees.cfm) , as saying this is a good step to help these deteriorating housing projects to get much needed funds for repairs and to integrate public housing into the larger community:

" For HUD, it’s the latest bid to move public housing and its residents away from their historic isolation and integrate them into larger communities. Affordable housing experts say the move is urgently needed. “Right now the status quo is not maintainable,” says Mary Cunningham, senior researcher with the Urban Institute. “This really brings HUD into the 21st century.”

Of course a nation that spends 15x more than all other nations Combined on the MIC, can't cut their "defense" :rofl: budget so that the impoverished might stand a chance. We can't tax corporations or have a progressive tax system that affects people who "earn" over $250,000 a year. Especially when the ruling elites get 500 million $$ bonuses a year. Just look at the actual progressive taxation of the 1950's through 1970. Before raygun. Your rationalizations are very bogus. Without a doubt, we are in a class war, only the 80% of the struggling Americans were never invited. We are just a doormat for the elite ruling class. The worlds largest doormat.

We have many places that are standing empty but if your credit isn't good or you don't have a 1st and last and you might not get the "income" they require you aren't getting into them! I just think that this is another idea that has not been thought out enough and I don't blame President Obama for it as much as I do HUD! I am sure President Obama is going on what they have given him as reasoning for this. True there are a lot of these that are "projects" that are now slum areas and need torn down but there are a lot that are very good places to live. My sister lives in one of them. She could not afford it if they come in and give it up to public landlords. From what I have seen there has to be more study on this issue before it is finalized!

find plenty of money for Afghanistan.

The Obama administration is arguing that there is another way. Seeking to stop the demolition and improve living conditions for more than 1.1 million households, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) is pressing to fundamentally change the strategy for low-income housing. The idea: Get local public housing authorities to operate like private landlords.



How is stopping the demolition and improving living conditions a bad thing?

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Thanks. Seriously - NOT demolishing public housing would seem like a good thing to me - but, that's just me I guess.

I am so sick of this neoliberal shit. It doesn't work.

In fact it is not a "solution" of any kind.

I don't have the patience to post a long screed about why that is, especially when it should be bloody obvious to anyone NOT living under a rock for the last 30 years, but imagine that your local police department needed some infrastructure repair or upgrade. Would you support them being taken over by a for-profit corporation as a solution?

withdrawal of all American troops from the Middle East and divert the billions of saved dollars to such necessities as public housing and our crumbling infrastructure.

It would also be a good thing to legalize and tax marijuana, which would solve a lot of problems including the public housing shortfall.

Obama is some good things but we need to focus on what he isn't doing and ask why.

costs us a f*cking fortune...that's where most of the tax dollars go. Stop killing people and spending $$ on news ways to do so.

After years of research, I have finally come to face the fact that a little know function of the Military in General is to provide a "Sink" for all the fiat money that is printed out of thin air.

The mechanism allows for the destruction of the play money created by the Banksters to manipulate Economies, and societies in general. Since Nixon abolished the Gold standard, the U.S. Dollar has been backed by nothing tangible, other than tax revenues and sales to the Corporations. When one looks at the liabilities of the Government as a whole, the combined tax revenues barely cover the supposed cost of the DoD.

OK, so they've sold this Ponzi scheme to the Government, and the Government has run with it for 4 decades to great success, but at this point, not enough fiat money has been destroyed, and the value of the Dollar and the Reserve currency of the world is in doubt.

Many countries are now realizing that paving over prime farmland and building McMansions doesn't inherently create wealth, no matter how the spin doctors would like to portray it. The reality is that humans need good food, clean water, and the ability to choose the path that they are motivated to follow and not be categorized in some corporate educational system that promotes only enough education to ultimately support the Corporation and the Government that is just another part of the Control Mechanism.

The MIC is just another economic mechanism to help Governments maintain "Order", either by money destruction, since Military operation yield no returns, other than to those that are awarded contracts. It serves no purpose to Humanity other than causing destruction of assets, property and lives, but even that result is exploited in the name of "Growth" such as opportunity costs for cleanup and rebuilding, not to mention stealing land from dead peasant landholders.

The first document that pointed me in this direction of research was the Iron Mountain Report, which I do not defend or claim is a real document produced by the Government, but the hypothesis present sure does paralel what we are seeing today.

With the DLC MIC fully in control in this Mal-Administration, and all of the escalated Sabre Rattling by Hilary Clinton, along with the obvious escalation of Military Activities in the world, we all should be concerned about a new conflagration in the near future, as the Banksters cling to this diseased economic system.

The fact is that Liberals and people that have empathy and knowledge are hazardous to the status quo for the government. We will not die for the Corporation, nor will we support them in their endeavors. This is why the "Left" is canonized so fervently by the Powers that Be, many of which are members of Both parties. Poor people, or the ones that have been discarded by the machine are more likely to buck the system than Johnny Whitebread living under his parents wing.

Sadly, when Johnny Whitebread grows up, he will probaly be discarded and find that the Privatization of HUD will directly affect him when he is ultimately disillusioned and discard, left to fend for himself.

Report in pdf and haven't read it yet. I just spent a couple of hours over at the National Index for Corruption....now that has some specific dirt.

I sometimes think that our culture is stomping out empathy. The evil I see and read about is just overwhelming. Maybe WW3 is about to start with a nuke instead of the last WW which ended with one. Sometimes, I wonder if these corrupt people are even human.

I read somewhere that evil can never win because there will always be acts of kindness.

I don't think of the Military as a sink...I think of it as the sick need for men (mainly) to destroy, oppress, kill, and maim. The military offers 'order' in the lives of young men...like a parent, it tells them when to eat, to sleep, to work, etc. I think it is an absolute waste of humanity.

Why use the military as the sink? Couldn't we use something else?

I blame the patriarchy.

Thank you for your response. I will read Iron Mtn. this evening.

Where would this "profit" come from? Or, more correctly, WHO would this "profit" come from?

Think about it!

:think:

I'm pretty sure you can figure this out.

to another corporation to mismanage??? It needs to be reformed a great deal. However, I wouldn't trust another corporation or other entity to take them over and improve them.

They are only going to be in it for the profit. The will ignore any regulations that are inconvenient to them. Just look at the Gulf.

I can hear the cut corners falling now.

How very progressive and changealicious!:puke: :grr:

and NOT what most of us voted for! :grr:

and I dare any one of them to spend some time there. I doubt they would... yet they would gladly keep everything as is. :eyes:

I admit it's worse than I could probably imagine. However, this is just handing the problem off with another step away from anybody being responsible.

If I felt like a private entity would do a good job or that the government would watch them like hawks, I might feel differently about it.

Don't say that anything is better than what they have now. Just look at the Gulf. They need to put somebody in charge who knows what they are doing and give them the power to act. And they need to watch them too.

to get their homes safer and up to code. When its the government - to whom do you write to tell them your roof is leaking, or the furnace doesn't work half the time, etc. Who responds? Who comes to check it out? If it is a private entity - you could file a complaint with your local city/county office and demand that they force the owners to fix what is wrong and make what is wrong right. Just because they're poor doesn't mean they want to live in squaller.

Do you know how hard it can be to get somebody to respond if you complain??? Especially if you are in the projects???

I know they don't want to live in squalor. However, you live on another planet if you think anybody is going to hop to it and respond to complaints from the projects.

You've already admitted you don't really know much about the projects or what they are like. I can only speak to my own area - which the police patrol constantly. In the next big city - a landlord didn't pay the heat or gas for a huge project - and the police arrested him - he is still in jail. To say that absolutely nobody cares and no one will do anything and private landlords can just break the law without consequence is just wrong.

I said I can't imagine how horrible it must be. I don't think you can make that claim unless you have lived there. I didn't say I didn't know anything about them. I taught kids from the projects. So I know quite a lot about them second-hand thank you very much.

I didn't say that nobody cares or that all landlords will break the law. I do say that few appear to watch over these people very much or enforce what regulations there are. That's what needs to be done.

Everybody can sit and care all day, but if if nobody enforces the regulations then they are worthless. And when nobody listens to what you suggest or even pretend to, that doesn't inspire confidence.

The 'project' in the next state has a landlord? What, exactly, do you think a 'project' is?

I am 15 minutes out from a large metropolitan area, in a small city.

There are Section 8/HUD townhomes in regular neighborhoods with privately owned homes - perhaps 12 in a row, that are all privately owned and are very nice. In another area in the city - there is what is called "The Projects" where there are old, rundown apartment buildings - probably more like 50 buildings with 10 apartments each in them - which has a place for a security guard - but no one is ever there - because they don't need one I suppose. The people there aren't "thugs" - they are just poor. There is very little crime in that area too. Most of them walk to where they need to go, many do not own a car - but the metro bus goes directly into the projects. The police are constantly driving up and back from the projects. There is a daycare down the street - I see the women walking their strollers down to the daycare and hopping on the bus to go to work. I suppose it is the city who makes sure the police patrol often, and that the surrounding neighborhoods are safe.

Does that answer your question?

with a little bit of bigotry as well. The areas with serious crime problems in their poor districts have CRIME PROBLEMS and infrastructure issues. Very little will change with new landlords. We have been there before.

Instead of dismantling every social program after we have trashed our society and institutions, we should instead look to the states and locations where these things are managed well and renovate the institutions and programs, not just the housing.

This is more bullshit libertarian answers. Same old thing going on. Disaster Capitalism. Force the programs and institutions into chaos through poor policy and starving them for the resources they need, then have the "Hero" private industry come in to save the day.

EnlightenedOne, no offense, but if you haven't realized what is really going on with Disaster Capitalism and the false "Government Bad / Business Good" claims, you have much more "enlightening" to go through.

and people like you stew in his bliss...... Watch V much?

Where would the people who cannot afford these privatized projects live? Currently, these "projects" are managed by a company tasked with making repairs and are allowed to profit (subsidized). So, yes we can file complaints against them for neglecting the repairs. The only difference will be larger rents, more profits and more homeless. I invite you to spend a week with me, in a rural "project", that is great compared to the inner city. I am sure your opinion of privatization would change. You really buy in to the raygun philosophy of the "free market?" Amazing.

And the Superintendant is on a 12 month tour in Iraq...

government???

Truly. Amazing.

or not..... since it was easy to see what direction this administration w0uld drive....

better than it's currently being done. If a private company or person is more capable of running the place, then so be it.

I'm sorry. There isn't a good track record for doing this from anybody.

only goal is to make huge profits at the expense of those who pay and entrust them to pay their health care costs.

In my mind's eye, I envision slum lords gaming the system. I envision people getting the shaft at their most vulnerable moment by heartless fat cats.

I'm too angry to even formulate my words properly. I will be contacting my senators, though. Slipping this under the radar, if this is what they're really doing, angers me to no end.
:grr:

I appreciate your anger on my behalf, and your willingness to take some action.

Please spread the word,and ask others to call!

:yourock:

I don't know what it will take to get through to some of you.

There is plenty of reasons WHY it is wrong, right here in this thread, if you are only willing to listen.

But, I guess the Faux lies are so much more seductive.

You're painting everything with a broad brush.

with "privatization" Which, since you don't seem to understand, means BIG PROFIT.

I suppose you think it might also be a good idea to "privatize" Social Security? Medicaid?

How did "privatizing" public utilities work out?

Faux news causes brain rot.

Don't be ridiculous. I just don't have a blanket hatred for all things private. Private companies do certain things better than the government and vice versa. I LIKE our society's mix of socialism/capitalism. Privatized utilities are regulated, in case you didn't know.

PG&E. I live in Northern California. They may be regulated but their prices sure aren't. They have put in these "Smart Meters" and everyone's rates are doubling to tripling. Now there is an initiative on the ballot that is sponsored by PG&E (most people don't realize it) that gives the impression that they want 2/3 of the voters to approve bringing in public run utility companies. Well they know that the voters never ever have a 2/3 majority on ANY initiative. So this means that they would never have any competition! You cannot trust corporations to do the right thing -ever! We have to get that through our head.

Think of the recent mining situations. There were regulations in place to prevent what happened to those miners who died but the corporation ignored the regulations. They don't give a shit! This could definitely happen to people who live in the public housing units. Slum lords don't care and if they can get away with doing nothing- they will.

I will also be calling my senators and congressman. There is no way that I want this happening to people where I live.

time for the crickets.

Really, they think we are soooo stupid that we can no longer connect dots.

:wtf:

:grr: i am on their balanced payments program. last year, i got off the plan when i realized my electric bill was about $15.00 less than the "balanced payment." i switched back to the plan in the winter.
since i am unemployed i decided to switch to the regular plan again, so PG&E tells me i can do that, but i have to pay the past due balance of $200+ dollars. i only pay for electric in a one bedroom apartment, and indeed the rates have tripled. i have no choice: i have to be on the balanced payment program because of their inflated rates. it's highway robbery.

Thanks Enron...

I have been puzzling over this since I read this thread the other day - just what, exactly, do "private companies" do better than public entities, other than maybe manufacturing luxury goods - yachts, for instance? But then, luxury goods for the upper 2% don't exactly add much to the "common good," do they?

Do they do education better? See Charter Schools.

Power? I get my electricity from a private power corp. If I lived 15 miles away, I could get it from a municipally owned power plant (non-profit) - at approx 1/3 the cost, last I checked (and what's hilarious is that around here, the deluded majority rail against "socialism" while moaning they can't have the same electric rates as the Municipal).

Food security? Well, we have hungry children - lots of them - in the richest country on earth - not to mention that lots of poor neighborhoods don't even have a grocery store (not profitable enough)- what does that tell us about the ability of the "private sector" to meet the needs of the people?

Housing security? ROFL, witness recent news.

HEALTH CARE? nuff said.

Sustainable food production? Look what's happened to NE dairy farmers, going out of business everywhere while the "Milk middlemen" clean up the $$$.

Rational transportation options? See influence of auto-makers on US transportation policy and the destruction of public systems of transit - and our consequent total reliance on endless fossil fuel profits for the "private sector."

I probably missed a lot, but you get the drift. So please tell me what "private companies" do better?

And yes, each of those companies is regulated in some way. Like I said, I like the MIX. Goodness...why is that so offensive? Is your Internet service through the government?

who's services are far too expensive for low-income citizens (profit) and who's lobbyists are no doubt out there trying to limit equal access (profit). Same goes for cable, for cellular, and anything else that can be considered an essential service.

"Groceries" are more complicated, since I have no idea if you are referring to food producers, manufacturers, or retailers. But surely no, the industry as a whole is doing a piss-poor job if universal food security and access to healthy choices are the standards. If profits are the standards, well than, that's another story, but all we have to do is look at - oh, say, Massey Coal or BP to see how well profits as a standard works out.

And I hope no one is so naive as to bring up "bad apples." There is not a day goes by that we don't read some tale of corporate malfeasance, fraud, abuse, exploitation.

and not using them to cover up shite, it's all suspect.

They have let BP redact the whole damn Gulf so far.

improved our nations long term outlook?

You are making the assumption that a private company will improve the situation. Look around you at corporate earth (not even corporate america, so many aren't even "ours" anymore)and it becomes quickly clear that that is an unwarranted assumption. The more likely answer is that a private company will take the cash out, make a few minor repairs, add the property to their asset list, get some investment money, and then start finding ways of divesting itself of the downside. Its their legal responsibility, you know.

Rah! Rah! Geeeet PrivatiZed!

Of course, it sounds like you have already had enough.

Many people have not known a what a good infrastructure looks like. They think it is simply not possible. But what confuses me about our new "progressives" is how exactly do they think they are going to bring about a better world then? If you buy all the bullshit there simply *can't* be a better world. Only moneyed interests and winners and losers. What kind of world do they think they can build? I don't think they have thought it through.

I guess they are hoping to end up with a "benevolent dictatorship" society. Well, they need to read up on history. There is no such thing.

Infrastructure these days is almost entirely designed in Autocad, rendered in 3D, and approved without every taking into consideration the final outcome..

Nobody asks why roads are built with median dividers that take loads of money to maintain, irrigate, etc. They don't think about the truck driver that has to maneuver a 40 foot rig through a slalom course of "Aestetically designed" access points. It's just not done these days. Then, people wonder why traffic is snarled at the drop of a hat, accidents kill hundreds of people every year, or the Mass Transit that is present is only a set decoration, and basically unusable for 90% of commuters.

It's built, we are stuck with it, and get to rebuild it at triple the cost after too many people die or complain. America is choking on a lack of reality and a Hollywood complex that admires Looks over functionality.

take the roads, for instance. Our road and highway systems are pathetic compared to 30 years ago. They are falling apart, and just get patched back together.

Now do YOU have any idea what it is like to live in your car????????

If so, I'm calling BS.

bad housing and corporations, then YOU have bought the Faux lie.

So, take your denigrating language.....and "call" all you want.

But privatization would actually make them worse. They need more money and greater attention and oversight from the govt entities currently responsible for them.

Oh, and yes. I do know what they are like, firsthand, up close, and personal. We are in a far better place now thankfully, but I do know how it is.

They want you to think it is all Cabrini Greens, and that is ignorant.

Just recently, housing in St. Louis was demolished .....just because. There were protests of poor folk who lived there, but ....so what...? They are just poor, useless nothings.

There is some good public housing that profiteers can't wait to get their hands on.

Don't buy their false dichotomy. It isn't either/or.....that is the RW lie. They are telling you that government will always do worse than corporations. We badly need to get rid of the corporate wing of the party, and that includes right here at DU!

Yes, I'm sure in small towns the public housing is wonderful. But in the big cities, they are death traps.

you are lecturing somebody who HAS lived in public housing?

I wasn't replying to you because you are making a false dichotomy, and you obviously don't care what happens to poor people....you just think more profit for business is GRAND.

Your argument is that the only way to fix public housing is to make it private: the argument is obviously and dramatically wrong.

Thanks for playing, though.

And by the way, you have no fucking clue if someone on this board has ever been homeless or in Section 8 Housing, so you might want to cut the self-righteous bullshit.

I really do appreciate it. Sometimes it really hurts here (which is exactly what they want) and it means a lot when someone has a kind word.

:yourock:

find living in "death traps" preferable to being homeless --

That is the situation you have to respond to --!!

This is the same unit that I hand restored, painted and repaired, as well as living in for 3 years. Take your death trap remark and stuff it where the Sun doesn't shine, because you are so full of B.S. your eyes are brown.

And this was no small town...

Just an aside, the so called "Conventional" applicants were mostly completely underwater, were very comfortable lying about there situation, and generally disqualified themselves by misrepresenting their situation. If they only told the truth, we would have welcomed them in, simply because they were honest.

With Section 8, the people were obviously struggling with Parental, Socialogical, and mental problems, but at least they were honestly in need, and not puffed up trying to fool us into believing that they were "Successful" when their reality was 180` from the truth.

Liars don't sit well with us, and they don't sit well with Section 8 facilitators either..

After growing up in Central L.A., and watching my family's large apartment complex transformed into a ghetto overnight, and the Jewish community fled after the Watts riots, we got out of the landlord business. It turned into an adversarial relationship as inflation denied people the ability to pay the rent.

The Landlord is usually the villian, because they control the place you live, and it's easier to place the blame on a Landlord that say pay or get out than to go to the Boss and say I need more money to pay my rent. Labor has been so bullied into accepting a Non-Living wage that they don't face the reality that Wages are out of sync to the reality of what it costs to maintain a rental unit in the manner that would allow "ANYONE" to call it home. In this I mean that if I wouldn't want to live there, then I don't feel comfortable renting it out. It's that simple.

To do that takes ongoing maintenance, and this costs time and labor, especially if you are not living there.

I have lived in the most opulent of conditions, owned many properties, and have lived in a tent. Strangely, the time spent in a tent was the happiest time my wife and I had in the 20 or so years we have been together. Opulence or modern structures are not the end all of happiness, but having a secure place to call home, even if it is temporary is very important.

What people do with the home is up to them.. Many people just squander it by watching TV, let the yard get overrun with weeds, convince themselves that "I can't grow anything". Spend money on some useless pet that requires eeding and maintenance to fill the void in their lives, etc..

Then we have the truly disturbed that bring down any place they live, and I don't have a solution to that. Mental illness is real, and sedating them with pharmaceuticals keeps them docile, but it doesn't do anything good for society.

Corporations do not have the incentive to keep a nice dwelling up. And people that live their are afraid to request repairs for fear of retribution. It's hard to deal with this, and things that need to be repaired right away are often neglected... What would have cost a few cents and some labor turns into a new floor, linoleum and hundreds/thousands of dollars due to fear and neglect.

If you have never been a landlord, then you really cannot denigrate the amount of work it takes to make it work the way it is supposed to. The amount of hassle, expense, and ongoing maintenance is lost on most people. They don't have a clue how hard it is. And they certainly don't have any insight on how screwed up the financial situation of the majority of people are without seeing the financials of applicants, and the dire straits most people are in these days.

Just think of the public housing that got destroyed in New Orleans post Katrina. Nothing at all wrong with it, they just wanted to be rid of it.

I was only addressing the idea that public housing that DOES need attention must be privatized as a solution. The idea is ridiculous.

And, yes, the public housing in NOLA was destroyed while NOLA people around the country were killing themselves because they had NO PLACE to live.

I'm glad you understand that.... I just wanted you to realize that they had you going on a red herring, which they know NOTHING about.

They are so steeeped in the corporatist mantra that they cannot understand other logic.

What is scary is that there is a whole generation who knows nothing different now.... they believe the Raygun rot that gummit is bad.

Which was just horrible, incredibly crime-ridden, and needing to be torn down for years?

Seems like you're criticizing others while talking about stuff you know nothing about.

I appreciate your dedication and care for the poor, obviously you have alot of experience/knowledge. I've worked with the poor a great deal in my life too - and from my experience, these people will do anything for a roof over their head. And it might be a crappy roof, but a roof is really what they want. This plan may not work longterm - it may not work at all - but it seems to me to be worth a try. If Obama didn't get a shit - he'd let them tear them all down and be done.

I'm "dedicated" partly because I *AM* poor... therefore I know what I am talking about, and I am really sick of DUers denigrating me for my knowledge.

YOU are the one who isn't getting it, and it is because anything your hero does is just fine with you, and if people suffer, then.... what the hell, let 'em suffer.

And, SINCE you don't know... it HAS been "tried".

It makes life suck even more.

Does that matter to you?

Go argue with someone else. I am really tired of being talked down to by someone who knows nothing, and cares even less.

so try again. You are not the only person on DU from a poor background. Get over yourself.

"power words". Words that hold "power"? Well, yea, words do hold power. You seem like you're in a really bad mood, or maybe you're always this angry. I don't know. But I have not denigrated you - I have sincerely praised you - and yet, it is you who denigrates me. Man, this board has really become a battleground, which is why I rarely post anymore.
Seriously, just too much hate and anger.

You are brushing the whole situation with a very wide brush, and I'm sorry, but you limit yourself by only judging from your own experience and dismissing the experience and knowledge of others. My experience has been different. Perhaps Obama's experience is different. He was out in the streets as a community organizer after all, so he's not deaf, dumb and blind to the problems of the poor. I for one have seen/known private landlords who own Section 8/HUD public housing and from ALL the ones I know of - they have have done a terrific job. People are expected to tow the line, keep their places clean and nice, there are inspections, etc. And, if you don't, your out. The ones that I know of that the government is in charge of? Not so much. I am not poor but I have worked extensively with the poor. So I know a little bit about from where I speak. Sorry that another view point makes you so angry.

I say - its worth a try - unless someone has a better idea and can pay for it. If it doesn't work - we can try something else - but at least the building will still be standing (rather than demolished) and these people will have a roof over their head. Problems can be dealt with as they arise.

"LOOK".... yes, that is a power word.... like standing over somebody with your hands on your hips and glaring. And, yes, people who are suffering and ignored get MAD. What a surprise. Try reading Malcolm X sometime... noway can I even come close to his anger, but it was righteous.

I don't appreciate the know-it-all attitude from someone who has never been in this position.

And that is exactly why so many of us are homeless... because you won't listen, and it matters even less to you.

So, go ahead and "try" privatizing Social Security... you know, it might just work. Its worth a try. Maybe * was right about that, eh?

After all, if it doesn't work, the offices are still there.

:crazy:

Just look at the Avatar chosen, and the Tag Line Image.

Now does that not simply scream out "HEY I'M DLC -- LOOK AT ME!!!"

Truly pathetic.

Rah Rah Go-Bama!

Talk about brushing with a wide brush. Worse, FAR worse......here you are implying that projects are the way they are because of the people who live in them not because of the negligence of the government, owners, etc. Are you kidding me? You are perpetuating the bias of those who look down their noses at people who live in projects, those who perpetuate the idea that projects are the way they are because of the people who live in them. Bull shit.

Yes, there are people who trash projects. But I've known MANY people who live in projects and I've been to their apartments often. Most of the people I've known are fastidiously clean and tidy. A few weren't, but their apartments were clean enough and tidy enough -- they looked about what my house looks like half the time and I suspect most peoples' houses/apartments look half the time -- not perfect but good enough.

I'd say 3/4 of the apartments I saw in terms of how the inhabitants kept them often stood in stark contrast to the structure in which they lived and the grounds around it. The structures & grounds reflected years/decades of neglect by the owners, be the owners private or government. The rest were nice, clean apartments in nice, clean buildings.

I've been very lucky in my life -- I've never been in a position where I've had to live in public housing. But I've been around it all my life from growing up in New York City with a liberal, caring father who was constantly dealing with public housing problems/issues and discussed it a lot at home (and took us with him occasionally) to working in a Chicago inner city hospital where most of the patients were poor (and a couple became friends when I enlisted them to head peer counseling programs) to Boston where I lived in a neighborhood with public housing in an apartment that wasn't any better than the apartments I saw of the friends I made to a very small city I lived in (I've moved a lot).

I've seen both private & public projects (way more public) -- a few were quite nice and many sucked, including a couple of the private ones.

Frankly, I haven't heard your attitude for a long, long time -- I'm glad to know people still think like that. It's a reminder there's still much work to be done.

What a load of crap.

That really worked with the Patriot Act and Medicare Part D.. They, those got amended really quick..

Statements like yours make me want to vomit.

what will we do? If the housing is privatized and it doesn't work, is the government going to seize private property? Fat fucking chance. What will happen is the owners will make it so that the people living there cannot afford to do so. They will be kicked out in the streets, buildings renovated, and rented to a higher scale clientele. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

You actually have a functionaing Brain, which is the first component of being rich.

When one discards the Hollywood notion that all need to live in the "Stepford" community in order to be well off, we are all rich in one way or another.

True wealth is the ability to live on three stones, such as those used to cook our meals on. The wealth of today is all for show, and nothing more that a set decoration that most American's want to emulate. Labor, Knowledge, and Production are what makes us rich, and no amount of money can provide that for us when we are left to fend for ourselves.

Education is wealth, which is why Education is denigrated so feverishly.

Labor is Wealth, which is why "Efficiency" is used to make it seem that some fancy tool is better than a hammer and chisel. They make it seem to the majority that picking up a shovel is below them, or cleaning the chicken coop is some sort of punishment, when the reality is that the chicken shit is great for the garden, and if it stinks too much, it's a sign that you need to be cleaning the coop more often. No No, just avoid chickens entirely and remove that facet from everyday life. (And while they are at it they'll ban chickens from your yard so you can't even experience what it takes to keep a healthy happy flock of chickens, that provide fresh eggs and meat daily for virtually free)

They even take Labor out of the equation by not allocating time for the average person to do any labor after working in the rat race all day, and facing a 2 hour commute home. 2 hours...200+ days a year..

I used to be considered wealthy... I did everything Society taught me to be successful. It turned out to be a sham, and the first woodpecker that came along (Enron) destroyed my house. I gave up money, the pursuit of money, the yearning for more money and became a saver. I buy nothing that I don't absolutely need. If I need to buy something, and I feel it costs too much, I try alternatives for at least 3 months to see if I can make do without it. (Takes a month to learn new methods after all, and a month to build callouses and heal blisters), and a month to go, "Why the hell haven't I been doing it the old way all along, and a month to crunch the numbers and calculate how much money I have saved by discarding the so called efficiency of whatever it was I was buying in the first place..

I will never lose the education gathered through my life journey, and discarding the current system for the simpler more self sufficient lifestyle is simply transformational.

Sadly, as most people are Urban, many do not have the opportunity to explore the alternatives, and I am deeply concerned for their future.

Your posts speak volumes to me and are backed up by my personal experiences that authenticate your statements. More power to you Bobbolink.

make me want to puke? It just sounds nasty.

These humans? The poor? The underclass? The underprivleged. They are people who happen to be poor. They are still people.

It separates "them" from "us." It homogenizes people who live in projects -- they become "these people" who are all lumped together as all of a kind.

Perhaps I can say it better by referring to how "the rich" are often talked about here. I have a sister who is very rich thanks to marrying a husband who is very rich. I see "the rich" defiled here like crazy and I can't say that I haven't done it once or twice myself. They, too, are called "these/those people" as if they are also a homogenous class.

It's wrong in both cases. To stick with my example, my sister and her husband are incredible people. I've learned much from her husband about kindness & generosity, among other things. They're amazing people who, yes, live very well but also give very well. They give both money and much of themselves. My BIL has a staff who have worked with him for decades and are intensely loyal. I met one guy once who does mostly maintenance & labor for my BIL. He told me about the time his daughter was diagnosed with cancer. My BIL was on the board of trustees of the best hospital in the city -- he made damn sure that the man's daughter got everything she needed both in and out of the hospital in terms of aftercare. His employees have good benefits but there were still costs to the family that insurance didn't cover -- my BIL picked up most of them. They've both helped their communities in many ways. And there's much, much more.

In short, they're not all shits. But they're still referred to as homogenized "these/those people."

Privatization -- wherever you look in this country -- is simply organized crime.

Whether you're talking about Social Security or military.

Probably we are due to replace low rent housing -- and increase it --

rather Obama continues to invest in wars and the military rather than the nation and

its citizens.

Shameful!

Katrina, a large public housing apartment building was demolished. The people living there were up in arms. The building was fine....hell, it had survived a powerful hurricane. 'Someone' wanted that lovely land in NO.

Made me sick.

Having worked in corporations, I know how ineffective, stupid, greedy they can be. Why do people think Corporate Assholes are smarter than Gov't??? You're right....they listen to Faux.

demolitions are all "necessary". It stems from the same greed that keeps over 3 million of us homeless in this nation.

BASTA!

If you think privatization is going to help the project, then you ain't been in projects either, buddy.

Private landlords own many Section 8/HUD homes - and as a taxpayer - that is fine with me. I'd much rather support the poor than the welfare corporations. Not everyone is a bad person who sees a business opportunity and helps people at the same time.

across our nation with enough money to buy out a building would be willing to do so with altruistic intent?

I am pretty sure you will come up with a pretty damn short list. It ain't gonna be well meaning persons buying these. It will be investors. Who are intent on profit. Which means that someone has to create that profit, and that will be you and me. And when a republican gets in control and cuts it back, the profit will disappear, and those investors will find another way to get their pound of flesh. And it won't be by "helping" people. And that's only if they cannot finagle a quicker way to make a buck out of it at the cost of the people living there.

There is little enough of such housing for people who need it as is. Losing what little there is will help no one.

They also have apartments for low-income near them and they are all always nicely kept! There is no where for some of these residents to go but homeless shelters if they don't keep them. By the way these units are 30 years old.

I work in them every day. The condition has nothing to do with the OP. Your straw man is just silly. Or do you really believe that corporate interests will improve things, that adding the cost of profit and business costs will make the property better?

If your protests are to be at all purposeful, you will need to explain how putting profit ahead of service and turning over public property to private corporations will make things better.

If not, then you need to just be quiet. You either don't know what you are talking about or you are being purposefully obstructive.

Bleed you dry, let the property deteriorate, hold you up for "damage" that was there when you moved in, continually raise the rent. Yup -- just what low-income people need.

Who gives a shit?

"If its good for big bidness, its good for everyone."

Let 'em eat cake and live under a bridge.

There are good and there are bad, and there are tenants who get walked all over, because their landlords know they don't have anywhere to go if they go back on the waiting list.

HUD has no qualms about canceling their contract with assholes.


The OP is a bunch of shit. They couldn't even post a link to the actual bill.

http://portal.hud.gov/portal/page/portal/HUD/fy2011budget/signature_initiatives/transforming_rental_assistance/documents/PETRASectionalAnalysis2010-05-11.pdf

I know my aunt never called hud when her place started falling down around her ears. Sure, it would have felt nice to do, but her fear of losing a place to live, of being homeless with 2 kids again was far greater than her desire to have fully working plumbing.

Edited to add that the only time anything got done was right before inspection time. And the fixes usually didnt last out the year

We are constantly telling them to report anything that comes up, but they are so trained to not make and trouble that things can get out of hand due to neglect.

I feel sorry for them, and ponder how they were damaged in the past to not feel free enough to exercise their rights.

Want to back that up with a link? Section 8 can raise rents in accordance to the prevailing rates as determined by HUD for the geographic area. If it goes up, then rent goes up, if it goes down, nothing usually happens...

Check it out.

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_{yay, blue!}
:eyes:

For which we were tacked to the wall for daring to utter during '08.

Just another Obama bashing thread with no explanation as to why its a bad thing. Better just to scream about that Damn Obama.

It shouldn't be a bit surprising he's turned his back on liberal policies, for he never was anything remotely a liberal to begin with.

The facts about him were there, but people chose to buy the "rock star" nonsense instead.

I'm very happy with the guy - he's who I researched, who I watched and paid attention to, who I gave my full support, financially and emotionally - and I'm still very content. Has he made me 100% happy? No. But then I'm smart enough to realize he couldn't and wouldn't. We put the best man for the job in the White House - and he's doing the best he can with the tremendous mess he was left with and has steadily helped to work our way out of. You are not going to turn around a wholly corporate owned corrupt government around in 18 months, much less 4 years. But give him time. People cannot understand his Ghandi like approach. I get that - because we are so far removed from that. We want everything that we want and we want it right now. We will be decades cleaning up Bush/Cheney's mess. Better to realize that right now.

"Ghandi like approach" about someone who is continuing one war while escalating a second? Seems a bit out of place.

we were in them. We don't know all that he knows - but we can't hardly destroy the place and then walk out and leave our mess. Afghanistan was ignored - so we can debate "escalation" as to whether there should have been that many troops there to begin with - or more. Or, more realistically, if we should have gone in there at all. We unfortunately started this shit - or Bush/Cheney did - and we've created alot of hatred and made alot of mistakes. That has to be corrected and undone and we've got to try to fix things, if that's possible. I was never for nation-building - but if we can get the Afghanistan women out of their horrible sitations, then maybe we have to do that.

He's also more conciliatory than I would be to the Republicans. He's more patient than I would be. He's more calm than I would be and he holds his temper better than I could or would. I admire the man and I'm thrilled the American people were smart enough to elect a black man who displays his kind of courage and intellect and calmness. God only knows what this man is having to deal with. I hated the fact that the R's supported Bush/Cheney wholheartedly - no matter what - but I've got to admit I'm really disappointed in the Dems that they can't give the benefit of the doubt at times instead of jumping on his back and calling him names. Obama asked the people to speak up and speak out - to HELP HIM - so go ahead and do that, by all means - but I'm seeing alot of just outright hate, which I find uncalled for and unnecessary.

via drone strikes are his ALONE to bear and very un-Ghandi like. I can agree that he has had his plate more than full since taking office but that is no excuse for some of the policy decisions that have been made. I am not into name calling or finger pointing either but I vehemently disagree with some of the directions he has chosen to go.

stupid Ghandi had them visited on his people. And in the end? Either way the inflictor of atrocities will get their comeuppance. Er, wait, uh-oh.

control everything to do with the clean up. He didn't start the fire, but he left the arsonists to put it out. That's where he made a big mistake.

quoting the right wing. Impressive.

I read as much as I could since this happened. You call it quoting the right wing. I call it reaching my own conclusion without paying one bit of attention to them.

In addition as for quoting them exactly, if they mentioned Ghandi then pigs are flying.

But living on the Gulf and watching the locals try to plan for this disaster and having problems not with BP, but with the State, perhaps I just have a different perspective.

So sorry if that conflicts with your view from the East Coast.

I would still have the same view. It's not an East Coast view. My statement still stands. Just because you don't agree with my view is no reason to automatically accuse me of just following their memes. I could care less what any of them say.

Because you live on the Gulf, you would and should have a different perspective. I can only imagine the leaders people have had to deal with. I am talking about dealing with this disaster. Planning for it is a different can of worms, and most of that doesn't fall into Obama's lap in my view.

BP has had entirely too much control over the response. Having the government take a more active role might not have changed anything. However, once it became apparent that they didn't have a clue, other minds might have been able to help.

Somebody said that BP should have been in charge because the government lacks the resources to handle it. BP didn't either. There are people who have a great deal of knowledge about drilling, the Gulf, and all the other factors. They are not being listened to or called on to do anything.

Well, isn't that more than just a tad condescending?

My local officials have done an absolute great job, thank you very much.

Please detail the people with this great knowledge who aren't being called upon. The Oil Patch? Scientists?

Wait, people who know something about the wind and waves and sand? They're not being called upon? I don't think so.

Just because you don't know their names and they may not be part of some group that you'd recognize as sufficiently important doesn't mean that the locals aren't consulting with "people with a great deal of knowledge".

is because unless someone is in the middle of it, truly imagining it is impossible. I find that saying that I can is condescending.

I believe you when you say the local officials have been great. A lot of them are because they know a lot more about an area, care more about it, and have more invested in it. I doubt if they are leaving any stones unturned when trying to find solutions or help.

I am calling out BP and others who can muster many more resources.

Here is one headline today from nola.com:
Plaquemines Parish President Nungesser claims berm oil capture plan killed

Here is another from a group of scientists:
Scientists Fault Lack of Studies Over Gulf Oil Spill
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/20/science/earth/20noaa.html?scp=1&sq=scientists%20oil%20spill%20gulf&st=cse
These aren't amateurs, but people with extensive knowledge on determing what is happening in the oceans.
I could care less if they are considered 'important.' I look to see what they have done.

I know that the coastal states have a lot of experts and groups to call on. That doesn't mean that other people who could possibly help and bring in new ideas should be ignored.

I'll leave it to all of you there then. You seem to believe that what is being done is all that can be done. I hope the best will happen. I know people who live there have to be working their hearts out.

It apparently isn't possible to be critical or really care unless one is in the middle of it. Being in the center of the whirlwind can sometimes obscure what is happening in some areas. However, I am out of it now in all ways. It is yours since you seem to want it that way. Many other people don't want to hear dissenting opinions from any area so you are not alone.

Vaya con dios!

I had heard Billy Nungesser talking on the news and had also heard that the Corps of Engineers was balking at his plan--that outfit of sterling reputation for its sound decisions in Louisiana. Nungesser is a good guy as far as I know and it seemed at least like a plan. And given the disaster that this will be for the people in his Parish, any plan right now seems like a good thing.

But it get's a little crazy-making reading all the people's statements who seem quite sure that none of us in the coastal states know what we're doing at all. I was initially disheartened by the people who felt that we had no lawyers on the Gulf Coast capable of filing lawsuits, making it imperative that people from the Northeast with "Harvard" or "Yale" in their resumes must come down to help us out. As if anyone in Boston or New York knew more than the Louisiana and Texas lawyers who deal with the oil industry all the time.

And from what I've seen locally, it's not BP that's a problem for this response, but the state and federal agencies who are perhaps not so creative about potential responses as the locals.

Again, you seem genuine in your concern and we're gonna need all of that.

Can't tell the truth and cause panic can we?

Nope, we need to wait for the right move in the Political 3D Chess Game.

Most of these experts talk too much for the comfort of BP and the Government, that wholly depends on BP to support their Too Big To Fail Military Machine that consume over 30% of the annual U.S. consumption of Oil can we?

The people that know the truth are waiting for a phone call that will come far later than they would imagine.

By not taking responsibility and passing the buck... Oabma is leading by example, and the States are taking there cue know that there will be no repurcussions, since the feds are doing it, so why shouldn't they? After all, the Inflated Tax Appraisals and Bills, still stuck at the peak of the bubble highs are not being paid..

And that's my point of view from the Central Pacific.

The fact of the matter is that ALL Governments are insolvent.. They can't piss off the Corporations, lest they dump all the token Americans they employ to keep the Rainbow and Skittles Economic happy talk from collapsing.

This thread alone is an indicator of serious trouble ahead, and given the response, I'm sure the Government is stockpiling ammo in the shadows.

The facts are that BP Knows the Government is broke. They know that there will be no meaningful repurcussions simply because the Government cannot afford it. Sure, they can bluster in the media, but nothing meaningful will happen, if the Exxon Valdez is any example, for at least 20 years. But by then, the economic system will have collapsed, Florida will be underwater, and the Gulf a large expanse of toxic water, ringed with beaches that emit volatile chemicals while baking in the Tropical sun.

The HUD crap is another handout to the Corporation to cowtow to their ultimate control (Which is just as bankrupt as the Government when the peasants revolt)

Your disdain for the State Governments is misplaced. The states do not allocate Gas and Oil leases, nor do they enforce the regulations. What you are seeing is Corporate deniability 101.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion but I believe the best man for the job, Dennis Kucinich, was pushed aside on day one. I further believe Obama has shown himself to be a corporate puppet who was positioned by kingmakers who funded his candidacy. And while an increasing number of his former supporters are wondering why he continues to damage his prospects for re-election, I believe the conditions under which Obama agreed to accomodate his sponsors exclude any such hope.

Regarding the efficacy of a "Ghandi-like approach: " Ghandi practiced passive resistance to absolute oppression. The problem Progressives have had for the past three decades has been passivity. What we need now is aggressive leadership. We don't need a Ghandi -- or an Obama. We need an FDR -- or a Kucinich. We need a fighter.

We need a President who will sweep every vestige of the Bush Administration out of Washington and appoint an Attorney General who will investigate and indict every member of the conspiracies that put America in the position it's in today. If we had started there sixteen months ago we would be well on the way to a full recovery by now instead of floundering about while depending on the same criminals who sunk our boat to keep our heads above water.

But, as I said, you're entitled to your opinion.

Not that it matters to anyone that we poor folk want to be included in this country, too.

I'm not sure what you refer to, but Kucinich overall has spoken the truth about the structural defect in our Society that contributes to Poverty in general, such as Education, Perpetual War, etc..

As I said in a previous post, we all are equally blessed with a brain, and it is our responsibility to use it wisely, or be trapped by the Social disease that is exploiting those that have not seen the light.

Just remember that the Middle Class is being exploited as well when it comes to being manipulated. Relatively, when you take Poverty out of the equation it is just another method of controlling the masses.

There are much deeper roots to poverty than people imagine, and much of it is through education, emulation, and desire. The poor desire to be rich, but when a windfall arrives out of some fluke, they generally lose it because they lack the skills to manage it. i.e. spending it on 10 multimillion dollar mansions for example.

It is time to re-evaluate what real wealth is. I am afraid that the re-evluation will be forced on the majority of American very shortly, and it won't be pretty.

It deeply hurts those of us who are ignored, used, and tossed aside.

Not that it matters to anyone but us.

you fail to delineate between Pacifism and passivism. Ghandi was pacifistic, but in no way was he passive. He was very assertive in going after what he believed right.

A Ghandi would get us where we need to be. Not a "fighter" but a person who does not give up, who defies their opponents attempts to make them the enemy to be fought and instead lets them break themselves in battles against nothing, fights they get no victory from even if they win. A Ghandi is exactly what we need.

I agree with you about DK.. I think he was the best choice in a moral sense. Unfortunately not in a political sense, which is why we are where we are.

like Dennis Kucinich?

You forgot that he invented Popcorn and Sliced Bread.

Just because someone doen't agree with Obama, people yell they are bashing him. That's changing the subject and trying to end the discussion or get it so far off track it never comes back.

Now the alibis are so worn out that you simply refuse to acknowledge that

Obama backs Charter Schools, off-shore drilling, nuclear power, hacking Social

Security -- and destroyed our best opportunity yet for MEDICARE FOR ALL?

And, presumably now it isn't his administration doing any of this?

Are you delusional?

"Damn Obama" -- this is disgusting!!

A program which was accused of doing the same thing.

Good grief. Seriously? If you think Obama is bad, what makes you think a former Goldwater girl, who was president of her Alma Mater's College Republicans chapter, and sat on the board of Wallmart would be much better?

I may disagree with Mr. Obama in a lot of issues, but at least unlike Hillary he had the decency of not being a registered republican, much less involved in republican organizations. Although I think his fawning over Reagan and his quickness to throw Rev. Wright under the bus forever negated any sort of liberal credibility. But it would be incredibly disingenuous to pretend Hillary Clinton is somehow a less of a center-right politician than Mr. Obama is.

and I don't think it's too early at all to try to encourage someone more

liberal/progressive Democrat to run --

Hillary is part of the leadership of the DLC -- the Republican/corporate wing

of the Democratic Party! How could that have helped.

Obama continued to deny that he supported DLC agenda --

Of course, he does -- he eloped into the White House with Rahm Emmanuel --

Corporatism is where our problems are coming from -- fascism in America.

Also keep in mind that the leaders we are given/offered are the leaders that

the powerful find acceptable for us to vote for. And, that is pretty much only

compromised opponents -- pre-bribed and pre-owned by corporations.

We keep hoping for a break thru -- but neither Hillary nor Obama are the solutions

we need.

Keep looking -- again, not too early to start for 2012.

Sounds like Grover Norquist to me.

Did he switch parties?

Just wondering... Public housing in it's current state is ruining lives. Privatizing may not be the answer but I think most of them should be torn down and turned into mixed income housing. Grouping the poorest in one area has not worked.

And look at how successful the privatization of Stuyvesant Village was.

are certain groups that have a great experience with public housing. But every instance I've seen has been really really bad. The type of place most people, even cops, are scared to go into at night.

It will just be different. I can see it now. They'd hire KBR and bring in Blackwater for security. It would be secure because people would probably be scared to leave their homes at all.

There has to be somebody who can handle it. Most of the time when something is privatized, it's given to somebody's cronies. They want to make money. Period.

after privatization.

or elsewhere. But due to the scarcity of affordable housing in NYC, poor people traditionally accept compromises in standard of living in order to have affordable shelter; public housing can be really awful here, but for those who are on the edge of homelessness, it's within their budget.

... it does not ruin lives at all, it builds character. Right?


WTF do you think the projects are a failure: lack of funding. So even less funding is the answer?

The logical dissonance is deafening at this point... if you have to use republican talking points to defend Mr. Obama, I advice you start considering where you are standing.

:applause:

If 10% of every new building was offered to the homeless/poor and subsidized --

we'd be getting somewhere --

but this decades long attack on American citizens is purposeful --

Next we'll have poor houses -- Dickens style.

The very idea that we have a Democratic president and 3 million homeless is absolutely

outrageous -- outrageous on its own --

but, when justaposed with the costs of the Bush/Obama wars which are making us all poor,

it is utterly inhumane and immoral.

I guess that meme has disappeared down the Memory hole too.