in evidence here. I posted this in another thread, but several people have asked that I make it an OP. Let me start by saying something:

This operation should never have been allowed to begin, since there is no effective means for handling a blowout, as we have seen.

That said, the incident occurred, and the proof of my previous statement is in evidence.

1. As some have already said, the relief wells are probably going to be the only thing that ends this. Kevin Costner's device may help clean up the oil that has been spilled and will continue to be spilled, but, based on the dimensions of it, it would take hundreds, if not thousands of the devices to do the job of cleaning up multiple millions of gallons of contaminated seawater.

2. The US goverment has no technology capable of dealing with this situation. The only such technology, such as it is, is in the hands of the oil drilling companies. We do have submersibles in the Navy and at NOAA that can reach those depths, but so do the oil drilling companies, and those submersibles are already in place and are designed for the manipulations needed in this situation. The Navy's and NOAA's submersibles are not designed to deal with this type of work. Further, the US military has no expertise in offshore oil drilling technology, and can do nothing to fix the problem.

2. President Obama has spoken about this situation every day, despite erroneous claims to the contrary. I've heard and seen him do so. Given the inability of the Federal goverment to actually do anything to ameliorate the problem, there is little else he can do. What he is doing out of the public view is another matter, and is not public.

3. We cannot "nationalize" BP. There is no mechanism available to do so. That is a ridiculous suggestion, since it cannot be done.

4. We cannot penalize BP without due process. In the meantime, they have the responsibility for stopping the leak, cleaning up the mess, and paying for all they caused. Legal action in this regard will go on for years, if not decades.

5. We are not going to "nuke" the site. That would probably cause even more widespread leaking, and such actions have never been tested at these depths. To do so would be incredibly foolish.

6. This blowout is unprecedented, due to its depth and the depth of the actual well.

7. Hand-waving and blame-placing will do nothing to solve the problem. It will only serve to create distractions from the actual job at hand.

8. This blowout will not be fixed today, tomorrow, or next month, in all probability. It is going to take months to be put under control, and there's not a damn thing we can do about that. We can hope that the top kill operation will have some success, but it's a long shot. Be prepared to be disappointed with the results.

9. No amount of pontificating from academics who have no deep-sea oil operating experience will have any effect on this disaster. In fact, nobody but those working in this field directly can end the leakage. The best experts in this field work directly in this area and have the grease under their fingernails to prove it. Anyone can say anything he or she wishes but, without direct knowledge of this specific field, they're just blabbering.

Finally, again: This well should never have been allowed in the first place. It was, and the process was well underway when President Obama took office. We can all agree that it is a bad idea to do deep-water drilling when the technology for fixing things when it goes wrong doesn't exist. We're paying for that, and for our inattention for the past 20 or so years. Drill, Baby, Drill is a bad idea if we're going to drill without the proper precautions or knowledge. Perhaps we'll do better in the future. Perhaps not.

But, this is not President Obama's disaster. It is BP's disaster. President Obama cannot reverse what happened. Despite his powers, he can't pull a Superman deal and fly around the Earth and turn back time. If you think you are frustrated, imagine how much more frustrated he is. He can actually do nothing to hurry the fix up. The only people capable of doing so are the very people who caused the accident through their own negligence, and there's not a damn thing we can do about that, since they're the only ones with the equipment and skills required to fix it.

So, please, BACK THE FUCK OFF OBAMA! Save your scorn for those responsible for this. Blame those who are culpable. Don't write untruths about the situation. Study it and learn what is being done and what is possible. Take advice only from those who understand deep sea operations, not from academics with manicures. The guys with grease under their fingernails are the ones who are going to fix this, even though they're the same ones who caused it. There is no other option.

What makes matters worse is the misinformation that gets circulated online...

so to speak...

K & R :thumbsup:

For real information rather than polemics.

and oil will continue to spew before things are brought under control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I

off this oil spewing into the gulf? Seriously.

rig in the TIMOR sea last August under very similar circumstances but shallower water. It took 3 months to shut down. Killing the GBR to this day and inquiries to my knowledge have started but I've yet to fully look into it. Something I plan on doing. Australia has a sad history with some nasty oil leaks.

Cheers
Sandy

Apologies, this was a dupe --

Halliburton has a very poor track record with their well blowing up, btw!

You're right -- how many of were even aware that the Timor Sea blowout had occurred . . .

or were aware of the consequences!!??

In fact, I still wouldn't be aware of it, had you not posted your info --

:)

YES BOP has failed. But failed due to specs of BOP not meeting harsh requirements or truly failing.

Clearly Halliburton's cement did NOT hold up. In fact they have given presentations stating that you CAN'T CURE CEMENT UNDER THE KINDS OF PRESSURE FOUND AT DEEPWATER SITES.
CEMENT WILL NOT CURE UNDER PRESSURE. I guess not only did top annular cement not hold near the wellhead, but also the cement plugs sent down the casing at great depths did not hold either, cause this well is spewing at close to production rates.

I think these 2 failures are absolutely clear: (1) BOP and (2) Cement job.

Halliburton has a very poor track record with their well blowing up, btw!

You're right -- how many of were even aware that the Timor Sea blowout had occurred . . .

or were aware of the consequences!!??

In fact, I still wouldn't be aware of it, had you not posted the info on it --

:)

1 of the other 3701 rigs in the Gulf went kablooey again.

Sid

and obviously have more PR, profits, and recapturing their oil in mind than

dealing with this national -- if not global -- emergency!!

This needs to be openly and strongly supervised to ensure what is going on --

management of this well has to change hands into more adept and more knowledgeable

and more honest hands!

...so they can continue siphoning off oil to sell. They know that once it is stopped, the lease wont be reissued and the well will be plugged for good.

The biggest problem is that BP doesnt care about the common good. All BP cares about is the bottom line.

BP profit spilling in the gulf and ensuring that cleanup is more expensive.

who knows how much is actually being recovered . . . and then this will be

minus recovery costs?

There's a limit at the moment of $75 million on BP costs and penalties --

fortunately, some in Congress are working to try to change that!

Leaving corrupt and criminal corporations in charge of this well is an insane idea!

for the cleanup cost BP will simply be billed by government, where their liability is limited is in other people being to sue them for the damage the oil caused.



There are two broad categories of costs associated with the catastrophic BP Gulf oil spill: one is cleanup; the other is damage caused by the oil -- to shoreline property, local tax revenues, the fishing and tourism industries, and other businesses and individuals.

Here's a guide to who's on the hook for which costs.

What The Law Says

The primary law at issue here is the 1990 Oil Pollution Act, passed after the Exxon Valdez spill in Alaska.

Everyone, including BP, seems to agree that BP is on the hook to pay for all clean up costs associated with the spill. That includes the government response from the Coast Guard, Interior Department, and other federal and state agencies.

The Coast Guard, which is leading the joint local-state-federal unified command responding to the spill, is keeping track of costs and will eventually bill BP, an Obama Administration official tells TPMmuckraker. It's not clear when that will happen. (We've asked the unified command for details and will let you know if we hear back.)

The question of who will pay for damages caused by the spill is more complicated. As reported by the New York Times, the Oil Pollution Act caps at $75 million the liability for BP for economic damages caused by the spill.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/05/oil_spill_liability_whos_on_the_hook_1.php

we have lost in the Gulf region.

I wish they could clean this up.

Cheers
Sandy

The solutions they seem to be advocating require drilling more to relive the pressure from the existing well. I suppose that is far more profitable than blasting it and collapsing the well with controlled demolitions.

a bit difficult to believe. Corps HATE bad publicity. Even assuming they care less about oil all over the Gulf in and of itself, whatever they are reclaiming cannot possibly be worth what this ongoing mess is going to cost them, both monetarily and PRwise. I know nothing about oil, but I've worked for corporations, and in my experience there's no way they wouldn't shut this thing down yesterday if they could. It's a nightmare for them.

clean up the entire Gulf Of Mexico shorline, and that is what is going to happen if this thing gets eventually capped in August..No one even knows how much is coming out, and it is a month along...

will we live to see that day??? do you have any idea of the force and fury of this gusher?

we are f8cked. they are purposely fudging the flow rate and Prez O is playing along. It doesn't matter: democrat, republican, black, white....the rules of the system are the same.

will we live to see that day??? do you have any idea of the force and fury of this gusher?

we are f8cked. they are purposely fudging the flow rate and Prez O is playing along. It doesn't matter: democrat, republican, black, white....the rules of the system are the same.

Shutting off the gusher is but one aspect of the response to the catastrophe. There is no reason to think that federal management of the response would make it less likely to cap the gusher, or that it would not happen as quickly, and that certainly is no argument in defense of the current privatized model for managing the response.

The government can protect the public interest and welfare. BP is protecting the interests of the investors - by law they must do that.

That is the difference. That is what people are expecting, are demanding.

of their investors. How are they going to protect the interest of their investors when they pay up $$$billions and $$billions for the damages, or better yet, sit in jail?

corporations take care of it all.

And I happen to know better than all these hysterical folks by the accident of fate that I happened long ago to get a job for a small oil company. Because of a political situation, I had to read all the major newspapers in a couple of languages and prepare a summary of the economic news affecting the oil field nearly every day. I learned a lot. This was long before oil rigs were being placed in the ocean.

Peak oil was, way back then, predicted to occur, if I recall correctly, between 2012 and 2019. Something like that. Everything is working as predicted.

What each of us needs to do, what nobody can do for us, is figure out how we, as individuals, can live with less oil. It's going to take ingenuity, imagination and true grit to free ourselves of our oil addiction. But this is a life or death matter for many of us.

If you live in the north, in a cold climate, try to heat your living space without an oil product. If you live far from work, think about moving closer so that you can ride a bike or walk or at lest drive less. If you travel by plane a lot, how about teleconferencing more.

I have a friend who put solar panels on his roof. That's a smart thing here in California.

If you live in the North and have land, think about putting in a windmill for some of your needs. Put in a lower energy use water heater. Turn off lights. We can do small things that make a big difference when we all do them together.

This is not President Obama's problem. This is our problem. And the Gulf spill is BP's problem. Better hope the company survives so that it can pay the damages. I'm not sure it will. This is a huge blow. It's BP's leadership we should be screaming about, not Obama's.

renewables are not ready to take over (not nearly at all, drop in the bucket compared to our demand for oil). We want our way of life to keep being what it is now but govt. in all countries have no real solutions for the coming oil crisis. The big fields are declining though out the world. The oil we do find is increasingly difficult and dangerous to get to and we can get big leaks like this one. Some people over time tried to warn us, like Jimmy Carter. Not too many people were listening though. It is way bigger then just one President though. Not sure what direction we will go in regarding energy in the next few decades...

fuels even if you live up north.
Energy companies seem to have spend a great deal of time convincing us that 15 mpg is good mileage or that oil/coal/gas are the only 'cheap' way we can do work... how long has man been on earth now prior to using oil etc about 200yrs?

I live in NC we have cut our energy(mostly coal fired) use by 3/4 in 3 yrs and we are not wealthy. We are not sitting in the dark and cold either.
Most ways to cut energy use save $ right out of the box. So far our total cost has been 3800$, that includes insulation, led bulbs, replacing the dead dish and clothes washer with highly efficient ones..these have all paid for themselves already. We save 2500$ per year in electric bills, and we are more comfortable.
We see 4 seasons here in central NC, nights in winter regularly get into the 20s(sometimes to 2 degrees more often 13.
If it has been 30d or above during the day and any sunshine, I open the insulated curtains on the sunny side of the house and many cold nights we have not had the heat on at all it drops to 64 overnight inside it might be 30 out. with zero fuel costs or a kero heater on for an hour in the morning and a 1200watt elect heater in the bathroom for shower time.

I have gone round the house with a video camera..one with 'night vision' its an older Panasonic 8mm tape one that we bought for 150$ several years ago. Do it on a cold day when you are running heat..you can see white where the warm air is leaking through the walls.
Caulking around windows. I pulled the inside window frames, very carefully and put expanding foam insulation 'Great Stuff'inside the space missed by the fiberglass insulation.
Tip use disposable gloves as the polyurethane foam will stick to about anything, but nail polish remover will get up the rest..be sure you can use the whole can because the valve will harden up.

Go to the electric supply house and get gaskets (I made my own from left over stryo 1/8" film packaging, recycle/reuse). Gaskets go between the switch or outlet plate/box. Precut ones have a variety of perforated punch outs for switches, outlets or plain cover. I used the plate itself as template for gasket, a razor and a marker.

I use a small toaster oven for meats up to 5lb, that's 1400 watts compared to the 3,000w that the big oven uses. Covered pots on the stove at simmer for an hour instead of 30 minutes at high saves some 30% of electric costs.

Everyone bitches that efficiency costs too much.
I beg to differ. We are on a fixed income so instead of having 450$ power bills during the winter heating and summer cooling seasons we now have a bill for 150$ or less.

Our plan is to continue to drive our need for power down to the point where we can take a small loan if we have to to put up solar panels. I have a solar water heater that is not installed yet (cancer surgeries and I cannot lift ).

What I did do about the electric water heater so far is put on a fiberglass jacket, then took some Reflectix brand insulation and wrap that over it and I had some styro panels that were packing material for the new washer and dishwasher and lined the little closet the water heater is. Insulate pipes, mainly hot water pipes.
Shade the windows in summer if you live in a house or apt that you can do so.

Granted you won't discover oil if you do these things, but you will spend less $ and use less fossil fuels.

I have not installed any solar yet other than some solar powered fans that cool the house in summer since the big power hungry heat pump died and I don't have 3-4g to replace it.

I painted the roof which needs to be replaced, but again I cannot afford it right now using White Kool Seal 247 on the dark brown shingles lowers the inside temps by almost 30 degrees.

We used no ac at all last year. AC season savings 1500$ that we did not have to come up with. KS comes with 8 yr warranty, it is meant for flat type roof, but used the primer that goes with to seal the shingles well before paint 2coats.

Conservation is not hard, it just takes some study and exploration.
It also takes some dedication.
Look for Solar Sheets, the are a solar air heater for your home, costs about 1200 to get in if you have a nice south facing wall to mount it. It can take 40% off your heating bill, and you can get a tax break, same with solar water heaters..
We did not find out until we had bought one for 1/2price that our roof won't support it once it fills with water, but I plan to add a garage next year so I will make sure the roof will hold an extra 500lbs.
Then again most Americans think learning a new way is just too hard..the way we have learned is all post WWII , disposable and wasteful.
I grew up with Depression Era grandparents..we learned as a kid, use it up, wear it out, make do..

A friend in marketing studies looked at what we are doing and said we basically double our usable income, by doing what we do. Since I am now disabled and partner has had to settle for much lower pay since being repeatedly outsourced and downsized, we are getting by
on half pay, fortunately we are used to doing without, does not mean we like it, but while everyone is scratching their heads over the oil spew,it sickens and worries me greatly no doubt, we are doing our best to get off all fossil fuel.

Our addiction to fossil fuels is destroying the environment, causing wars and creating terrorism from countries we invade to steal their resources..the theft of resources from others has been the basis of US Business since the beginning. Slavery, taking gold, oil, other minerals, making war on China to force them to allow opium trade in the 1700s...We are not as exceptional as runnyraygun claimed we have become a nation of pirates living at the expense of others.

We are driving our electric costs down, but you are way ahead of us at the moment! However, it looks like we are following the same path.

Cheers
Sandy

of everyday energy reduction like a nation at war.

I've read the seemingly endless threads filled with anger at BP, corporations, Obama, etc., and wondered where calls for changing our country's lifestyle to conservation rather than addiction were.

There are all kinds of very low tech things that we can do to change our consumption.

If this spill has shown us one thing, it's that the now is now.

This denies and contradicts any and all theories of government.

"This is not President Obama's problem. This is our problem. And the Gulf spill is BP's problem."

Not since we have had government has that been true.

So...

- The people are on their own and are even to blame - they need to change their lifestyles.

- The response to a catastrophe such as this that threatens public welfare in not a proper concern of the executive branch of the federal government.

- The spill is BP's problem, so let them manage the response.

That is beyond an extreme privatization point of view, it is an anti-government point of view, a view that undermines and contradicts the very purpose for having a government.

I don't see how your experience as a public relations person for an oil company gives you any special expertise or background on this issue - the appropriate and proper role of government in protecting the public welfare.

is epitome of that picture

Not!

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is knowing that this thing was planned during the lawless 8 years before we elected Obama and that the blowout protector, even if the battery had been live and the hydraulics had not been leaking, was simply not rated at that depth or beefy enough to cut and cap that size pipe. There is no way it would have stopped this blowout even if it had worked perfectly, which they knew.

This is a case of willful negligence caused by years of refusing to enforce even the lax regulation that was allowed to remain on the books.

I keep asking the Obama blamers just what they expected him to do--swim down to the leak with a cork in his teeth?

The truth is that he ordered the Coast Guard in immediately to deal with what they could. This thing is just too big to handle with anything but a pressure relief well and I'm afraid everybody but the Obama bashers know it. In addition, there is no way to fix 8 years of utter incompetence and hostility to regulation overnight.

This is Cheney's Chernobyl and we can't let anyone forget it.

who have been blaming him for one thing or another since he was elected. Next month, it will be something else. It makes you wonder if there's an agenda in play.

Bush was.

Maybe you can explain what you mean. Or maybe not.

Why am I not laughing?

I feel comfortable with him as our President, even when I'm so mad at him I could spit.

happened and calling for the government to step in and for the nationalization of BP -- the "B" of which stands for BRITISH but these folks aren't interested in details like that -- are also the same ones who want the Bush admin held accountable for their crimes, Goldman Sachs held accountable etc.

They scream that corrupt corporations and governments need to be held accountable for their actions. But when an opportunity comes up for a greedy, negligent corporation to be actually held accountable and to clean up the mess that they created, they scream that the government is negligent for not taking over seconds after disaster strikes, never mind that the govt doesn't have the appropriate resources to do so. It's hard to figure out why these people even bother if these are the quality of their arguments and "disagreements" with the President.

People are calling for a federalized response to the catastrophe, not the nationalization of BP.

People are not calling for corporations to be "held accountable" right now, they are concerned about the catastrophe.

If someone did in fact "begin howling that this was "Obama's Katrina" MINUTES after the oil spill" that is not cause for characterizing all critics and all people who disagree with you that way.

Yes it would be "hard to figure out why these people even bother if these are the quality of their arguments and 'disagreements' with the President."

But those are not the arguments people are making, are they?

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The agenda is to encourage a Democratic President to stand up against wealthy corporate interests in favor of the people instead of the other way around.

:thumbsup:

I understand birds and deer live around Chernobyl for some time now....I wonder how long before a healthy grouper will be taken from the gulf after the oil is done spreading....

she won at school and asks him to "fix it" cause the petals are starting to fall off?

George takes the petals and sticks them in his pocket then hands the flower to ZuZu as if it's all fixed.

Many DU'ers are like ZuZu. They want Daddy to fix the flower. That's the mentality.

It's horrifying the oil spewing in all likelihood won't stop for months and that the aftermath will take years to partially fix. But that's the reality and a lot of DU'ers can't handle it.

Obama and the Federal Government has no way to stick the petals in their pockets and pretend things are fixed.

The fix is going to take months.

I had to stop visiting DU and reading news to a large extent because focusing on that Oil spewing in the Gulf and the damage happening every waking hour doesn't help.

That is a great analogy.

I am coming to love all these "helpful suggestions" by amateur inventors that seem to have no grasp of the situation. Or, barring that, assertions like post #6 that there MUST be a way to fix it that Obama is simply holding back on for whatever reason.

Hardly -- we've had the oil industry in charge of our energy policies for the last

5 decades, at least --

Congress sideliend on the entire issue!!

We've known about Global Warming since 1957 -- and scientists warnings then --

After that we should not have been burning fossil fuels --

and should have nationalized our natural resources.

60 years of NOT INVESTING IN ALTERNATIVE ENERGY . . . really pays off, eh?

For whom but the privatized oil industry?

and those politicians doing their dirty work for them --!!

I suspected that many here were calling for all of us to think of ourselves as little children, who should stay silent and trust our betters, and see the administration as properly in loco parentis.

This post confirms that suspicion.

What you are proposing is contradictory to what is required for a healthy functioning democracy.

well yet - you're pretty acting like a child, aren't you? If you can't accept reality that is.

Nothing I have said could be accurately described as "having a fit that the government can't fix the well yet."

What is with the insults?

watching for safety violations, remember this all started with Reagan that the EPA and OSHA were businesses enemies, people expect the prez to wave a magic wand to change what happened back to before it happened. The real bitch is how many don't know that the only experts on oil wells are bought and paid oil company lackeys who won't do more then the oil companies allow. It was the same way when the oil tanker ran aground in Alaska, the "experts" claimed that it wasn't as bad as the media made it look.

elected officials -- not to mention

the political violence by the right wing over past 50 years and more!

:rofl: In a word: yes. Apparently this is what is expected. That, or perhaps folks think he went to Hogwarts and has some kind of magic wand that can solve all the problems.

I prefer to deal in reality.

times 10

on offshore drilling. He could have refrained from comparing the 'tired arguments' as he called them, of Environmentalists whose motivations have always been genuine concern that something like this could happen, to those of the 'Drill Baby Drill' rightwing mob.

As it turns out, the difference in those two groups which apparently Obama failed to see, could not be more tragically apparent than it is now. He certainly owes an explanation to those who supported him because of his opposition to offshore drilling, and an explanation and apology for that odious comparison.

It would also be illuminating to know whose advice he was taking when he claimed that technology had advanced so much since the ban went into place that oil rigs were safer than they had ever been.

In essence his implication was that those who opposed offshore drilling were old and in the way. Too bad he was so easily influenced by whoever helped change his mind. He would have had such an advantage right now against the Sarah Palins of the world had he stuck to principles.

Won't stop the blame obama for everything crowd, but WTF ya gonna do....

We are between a rock & a very hard place...with our hands tied.

Thanks for the information.:)

one pronto. Several weeks ago, the Dutch sent a skimmer ship to try to help but they were turned away. It seems feasible that some of the underwater goo that is flowing toward Florida could be pumped into tankers to at least ameliorate the pollution. The water and oil could be separated later at dockside.

do a good job, as far as it is capable. I saw the dimensions of the unit, though, and it's too small to make much of an impact. If there were a few thousand of them, it might be a workable solution. Sadly, I doubt that there are many of these units available, so even if it works it will be woefully inadequate to cope with multiple millions of gallons of oil and water.

I'm not sure why the skimmer ship was turned back. I had not heard that. Do you have a link?

Maybe a few hundred more centrifuges could be cobbled together in a few weeks. Any would help.

Two Dutch companies are on stand-by to help the Americans tackle an oil slick in the Gulf of Mexico. The two companies use huge booms to sweep and suck the oil from the surface of the sea. The US authorities, however, have difficulties with the method they use.

What do the Dutch have that the Americans don’t when it comes to tackling oil spills at sea? “Skimmers,” answers Wierd Koops, chairman of the Dutch organisation for combating oil spills, Spill Response Group Holland.



The Americans don’t have spill response vessels with skimmers because their environment regulations do not allow it. With the Dutch method seawater is sucked up with the oil by the skimmer. The oil is stored in the tanker and the superfluous water is pumped overboard. But the water does contain some oil residue, and is tthat oo much according to US environment regulations.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-oil-spill-response-team-standby-us-oil-disaster

though. If they're removing oil, what they're putting back in the water is only slightly polluted in comparison with what they cleaned, I'd guess. A failure of regulation, I think. I imagine it will be fixed shortly and the skimmers will be able to proceed.

bomb. Hope you are right.

where was our Congress or any member of government reactng in a similar way?

That's the problem here, a privatized oil industry and it's wealth has influenced and

corrupted our government to NOT ACT re alternative energy -- electric cars, etal.

And it's propagandized the American public -- spending billions to do so -- that Global

Warming was myth!

Again, where was our government?

Sidelined by big oil money and political violence --

after they issued a directive telling BP to find an alternative to the toxic dispersant Corexit. My only question would be...just who in the hell is in charge here?

j/k
I know you and many others are not blaming Obama for the disaster.

That EPA story should be front and center both in the news and here. But don't worry, BP will pacify us with more "top" cure promises.

http://www.epa.gov/
http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/doc/2931/559595/
http://www.whitehouse.gov/deepwater-bp-oil-spill
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/05/05/ongoing-administration-wide-response-deepwater-bp-oil-spill


Looks like a joint effort, which it legally has to be: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/22/frustration-mounts-as-oil_n_585913.html

What would the purpose be? What problem would it solve? Would it change what happened? By doing so, would we only add more bureaucracy to an emergency? Would this actually slow down the current process? What would be the gain?

If there isn't a point to doing something, then why do it?

to begin with -- for a week --

Further, they seem inept or maybe it's distracted by what people expect them to do

versus where their main interests lie: i.e., wealth and control of oil and PR.

Offshore drilling is a disaster waiting to happen -- and now it's happened.

The truth of what was going on on that rig is criminal!

BP's record is criminal --

so is Halliburton's --

but these are the people you want to leave in charge?

Lots of people in the oil industry who know drilling and rigs --

Let's put someone more honest in charge --

Try tuning into C-span for oil hearings -- repeating --

The point is there is NO point in letting dishonest and criminal corporations

continue to try to stop a leak they denied for a week and for a month have shown nothing

but ineptness at closing off!!

You might also check for the article today where Obama is pounding on BP for it's lack of

effectiveness -- in fact, it's failures -- failure to do what they promised -- and failure

to meet timelines.











And that would help stop the leak and clean up the mess?
What would the purpose be? What problem would it solve? Would it change what happened? By doing so, would we only add more bureaucracy to an emergency? Would this actually slow down the current process? What would be the gain?

If there isn't a point to doing something, then why do it?

They certainly have the appearance of being completely in charge. I agree with that. And yes, I believe if they continue with this ineffectiveness, then there will need to be a full government take over, even if the players are the same, to send a message, so I agree with you there, too. However, if the government can get this thing on track and meet the necessary deadlines to the satisfactory of the EPA and all other government agencies, then perhaps all that won't be necessary. The less distraction and circus atmosphere, the better.

is that so much has been corrupted -- and you have to adjust your yardstick

to account for that.

You can't underestimate the corruption in place --

And, perhaps that's where Obama/government have been led down the garden path?

We should have certain reliable expectations of our government agencies . . .

but then we do recognize Monsanto's FDA -- and BP's EPA --

There has to be more wariness, distrust, questioning -- and less presumption of

logical performance.

:)

Remember, it's _British_ Petroleum.

Permit from American government . . .

And, no guarantee that they would have the money to pay for the total destruction

of Gulf of Mexico, animal-life, nature --- not to mention all the lawsuits from

fisherman and vacation areas . . . state and private interests!!

Let's see . . . what's 5% of the planet worth?

First, we have to stop judging everything by the value of a dollar bill --

there is no replacement for nature, especially with something that artificial!

Especially if you think impossible?

IMO, we can certainly SEIZE the assets of any company -- even a foreign one!

Not like that hasn't been done before!

owned by the Harrimans, Prescott Bush and others.
It was seized by the US govt because they used Auschwitz kamp prisoners as slave labor.

Knew about the front companies -- Holland America Line, etal --

their raising money from elites -- racist elites -- all over the world --

but didn't know about that one!

:)

Only the federal government has the power and authority to get it "done right now" - to have anything done right now. That is why we are calling for stronger federal intervention, that is the very purpose of having a government of any kind in the first place.

"seize" the 4th largest company in the world. just sayin.

It will now be dispersed . . . small enough now that animal-life won't be able to

avoid it -- and making it impossible to monitor the actual amount!

Who does that work for except BP?

It'll be fucking tough to oppose new regulations if a BIPARTISAN commission agrees that deepwater drilling was approached without enough caution or knowledge and recommends against further deepwater drilling until such a time as the technology to correct potential spills has been developed.

Any Republican that votes against the recommendations will be cutting their own political throat.

to work toward prevention of future such disasters. I'm completely puzzled by that. No, this commission will not clean up the current disaster. It might, however, be part of preventing future ones.

Make massives investments in alternative energy -- and electric cars.

Organize communities to produce local electricity -- generators.

STOP throwing petroleum all over our crops!

If this gusher continues, it's just a matter of time until it transforms entire oceans. The damage it causes may not be "repairable" in the timespan of a generation or two. Certainly, all the money in the world won't fix environmental damages, only nature's processes might, and they themselves take time.

Since we, that is to say humans, are part of the food chain, collectively we will also be transformed by the transformation of the ocean.

Thus, I hope your point about this gusher continuing for a long period of time is simply wrong. I concede that it has already continued for far too long.

stoppage of the oil until a permanent stoppage can be done via the relief wells. Again, though, it's untested at this depth and in this particular situation.

As for the cleanup of what has already leaked and will leak, that's a task that will never be completed. Eventually, the mess won't be visible any longer, but it will linger, as have other major oil leaks and spills, for a very, very long time.

What's needed here is a renewed resolve to make certain such incidents do not happen in the future. What's needed here is a dramatic reduction in our reliance on oil as a fuel.

Amen to that...couldn't agree more!!

Gee . . . could it have been privatized oil interests which blocked government

from response by buying it?

I remember having a car in the 70's that got 40mpg. What happened to those cars???
Sure wish I still had it...Plymouth Horizon, god rest its little carsoul.


So if the technology has been here all along...then yeah, wonder why it was never "grown".

(Actually I don't wonder at all.)

They think the technology is at fault!!

We went to the moon . . . but only at 22 mpg!!

Oh, we had a Plymouth for a while -- gigantic trunk -- could have put half our

apartment into it and we pretty much did in summer!!

:)

I do have to laugh when I see them advertise today how their car get's 30 or 40 miles to a gallon, like it's some big deal. My first thought is hell we haven't progressed at all when car's from the 70's were getting that much.

Amazing what oil money can do to spin heads around in the opposite direction!!

help me.
:cry: :cry: :cry:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/31/science/earth/31energy.html

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is proposing to open vast expanses of water along the Atlantic coastline, the eastern Gulf of Mexico and the north coast of Alaska to oil and natural gas drilling, much of it for the first time, officials said Tuesday.

The proposal — a compromise that will please oil companies and domestic drilling advocates but anger some residents of affected states and many environmental organizations — would end a longstanding moratorium on oil exploration along the East Coast from the northern tip of Delaware to the central coast of Florida, covering 167 million acres of ocean.

Under the plan, the coastline from New Jersey northward would remain closed to all oil and gas activity. So would the Pacific Coast, from Mexico to the Canadian border.

Is that supposed to help now?

the poster who was concerned with further drilling. Of course a moratorium won't help with a existing gusher. I neither said nor implied such.

For Pete's sake...think. It is not a zero sum game.

:shrug:

...had nothing to do with the drilling that has been going on in the Gulf of Mexico for DECADES. The moves the administration took to open up more exploration had NOTHING to do with this incident.

the true consequences of this "spill" -- !!

and one of the - 10X bigger than this one -- in serious trouble!

I've read that production from the main well has dropped off rapidly, but that may not be related to problems with the rig itself.

Would you please explain more what's going on at Thunder Horse?

shortly. What has happened in the Gulf just about guarantees that. It was a poor compromise. That is clear at this point. Watch the news.

devastation itself. I don't know if I can get over the compromise. I guess that is what I need help with at this point.

I'm not big on offshore oil production, myself, and haven't been since the Santa Barbara spill of 1969. It's not a safe way to get oil.

:hug:

hasnt he done it. or am i not up to date. i heard this from him within days of the gusher. yet just today i a hearing argument from people demanding he does it. confused



http://blogs.chron.com/barrelsandbtus/2010/05/obamas_moratorium_on_offshore_drilling_may_be_good_poli_1.html

Several months ago, to the dismay of some environmental groups, President Barack Obama proposed opening new areas to deep water drilling along the southern Atlantic coast, a portion of the eastern Gulf of Mexico, and some of the coast of Alaska. But in response to the recent oil spill in the Gulf, and pressure from some key Democratic senators who are up for reelection this year, he has now declared a moratorium on all new offshore drilling. The ban will remain in place until the administration completes a "thorough review" of the factors leading up to the platform explosion and the subsequent leakage of light crude oil from the bore hole. This review could take months.

While the moratorium on drilling may make for good politics, it constitutes bad economics. With the global economy growing again, and oil supplies tight, sizeable increases in the prices of crude, gasoline and diesel can be anticipated--especially as Americans hit the road during the summer months. Less domestic drilling and production will mean greater reliance on imports that, in turn, could reverse our recent progress in reducing the trade deficit. In addition, thousands of high-paying domestic jobs in the oil and gas industry will be put at risk, at least temporarily.

Who gives a damn right now? What about the thousands of good people in Gulf area who are losing their livelihood because of this tragedy?

I don't want a moratorium on off shore drilling...I want a complete ban.

the post is obama has done a moratorium that people are demanding, to this day, that he does. being informed is the very least of our responsibility, especially if we are going ot put out opinion or demands.

I lifted the title directly from the opinion piece you quoted.

Btw, I find it interesting that the man who offered up that opinion (Bernard Weinstein) is associate director of the Maguire Energy Institute..

moratorium. this article says he made a moratorium. first one off google. i really dont give a shit what it is demanding, what it is complaining about, what its point is, who wrote it. at least it KNOWS that obama has already set the moratorium and is not yelling at him to do what he has already done.

who the fuck cares what the title says.

you are puposely ignoring the point. a person, at the very least, has a responsibility to be informed when making demands or giving opinion. address that.

Obama said that he has placed a month-long moratorium on more drilling until he has completed a review of the drilling. Listen to his speech. It's not great, but it shows that he is responding. Among other things, Obama speaks of assembling a team of experts to advise on this. Another DU myth put to rest is that Obama is doing nothing.

I am not a knee-jerk Obama is wonderful person, not at all. But he is handling this crisis very well. There is next to nothing the government can do. If you study the remediation of environmental hazards, you will see that it takes time, regardless of what the problem is. Remediation is slow. The economic cost to the Gulf Coast will be horrendous.

My heart is sick about this. I lived in Mobile and remember the beautiful white sands of Dauphin Island. You have no idea of the memories I cherish from my youth there. But Obama is not the problem. He did not cause this. He cannot remediate this site immediately. Nobody could.

Stop criticizing Obama about this. All of you. You are not children. Act like the grown-ups that you are. Please. You are not making the situation any better for those who are most deeply affected.

"But Obama is not the problem. He did not cause this. He cannot remediate this site immediately."

i am not getting what happened in politics that we went from being grown ups in the real world. where rational, reasonable, pragmatic thinking was more a norm

you are from the area. you are experiencing the pain.

i agree with you post. thank you for puttin the time and iffort into it.

wonderful memories and photographs of the area. Honeymooned in New Orleans. I know and love the landscape. It was a horrible time to live in the South, but the coasts, the beaches were wonderful. There are places along the shore of Biloxi, Mississippi that I shall never forget. They are probably filled with casinos and hotels now, but back then they were really beautiful.

i have my memories too.

i agree with your posts

Right now Obama is looking out from a plane window over Katrina -- !!

The world is calling for Obama to take over control of this well --

And, please, let's stop applauding threads disguised to try to suggest DU'ers

are doing something wrong, when the entire purpose of the thread is to alibi for Obama

and try to get everyone to shut up!

imposed a moratorium. That news slipped by a lot of people. It was one of the things he said that nobody seems to have seen...at least nobody who is in the business of constant criticism of all things Obama.


When an agenda exists, no facts that don't support that agenda matter. And so it continues.

as if, recognizing truth = applause for the gusher. i cant do unreasonable.

seems to be all they have.

on the news, then all of a sudden thread after thread blaming obama for the damn earthquakes and more....

same thing with this

and the ecomonmy

and the banks

we knew when obama went in there was 8 yrs of breaking down every part of the u.s. and that it would take time, lots of time, to start repairing.

i gotta go back to ignoring these threads.

Everyone is fully aware of his announcement to halt further drilling in the locale while he "rethinks".
NO ONE is claiming a belief that's not the case.

Many assumed that part of that "rethinking" process would also extend to a temporary time out on the new issuance of drilling permits themselves in the meantime as well. Especially ones with categorical exemptions of the same nature that was granted to the present clusterfuck adventure. 27 of them since the volcano erupted, and especially no one thought 2 of them would be to BP. At this point, they shouldn't be allowed to push a new thumbtack into a piece of corkboard.

THAT is the news that has evidently slipped by a lot people, and is being studiously ignored elsewhere by a lot of present admin policy apologists.

i ahve had people answer my posts telling me that is what they want. this morning i had to google to get the info. so you are wrong to say no one is saying that.

and now i will have to google this information since lack of or incorrect information is so readily discussed.

got a tidy little name to call people if they dont fall in order, dontcha. i never have respect for a poster that resorts to hyperbole name calling.

about as immature as you get, or rw'ers get

had called a temporary time out? That's one more even than there should be for a political discussion board like this so rightfully focused on this disaster, but it is DU -- a big, big board and we see anything and everything here some days. It's possible there are even a FEW (but I doubt it).

It is not some big pervasive myth you are pretending it is.

OTOH I've seen quite a few people who want to see a discussion of a permanent moratorium-- a return to a ban. That is a political opinion they are entitled to, whether you or others agree with them or not.

And there's been a very concerted effort by a few very hardcore apologists to try to debunk, muddy up or discredit the fact of the last 27 permits. Apologist is the KINDEST nomer I can think of for that kind of intentful disinformation effort.

and our government needs to massively finance alternative energy --

and NATIONALIZE the oil industry now --

We have to totally ban offshore drilling -- and we shouldn't hear anyone say "no" to

that until we find out the true damage caused which may take a minimum of months/year.

Right now Obama is looking out an airplane window at Katrina --

he has to take over this well, seize BP assets --

and turn to other oil industry people who are not as corrupted and personally involved as

BP is with this well. And, let's hope not as dishonest or as inept!!

If they were not aware of the violations of safety regulations by BP, of its history of accidents, some deadly, of its human rights violations and its criminal negligence, BEFORE this, then studying is not going to help them much.

The moratorium has about three weeks left. What then? What do not KNOW now, that they will know then? I have had no problem over the past several years finding information on the dangers of deep water drilling and the horrendous, careless, negligent behavior of Big Oil corps like BP, who are by now means the only ones.

I would feel a lot better with a president who had not caved in to Big Oil just weeks before this disaster.

"Why are they turning back airplanes?! Can't they just land?!"

"Why is Obama just letting the people of Haiti suffer?!?!"

That takes too much time for some...especially those with an agenda to support.

I think the emotions associated with a disaster can cause some to enter a sort of "grieving loop" before they can accept harsh facts. They spend some time in the denial and anger stages before getting to acceptance.

avoid going public with their erroneous conclusions until they've had time to learn the facts. Many do not bother to do this, however.

A poster at FDL posted this not too long ago:

Government to Oil Plume Discovery Team: Shut Up

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/48816


Anyone with critical reading and thinking skills would recognize it as suspect for a number of reasons.

The truth of the matter is that the mission was over, as you can see from a series of articles on Nature.com:


Oil spill science: Mission’s end - May 16, 2010

Science journalist Mark Schrope is aboard the research vessel Pelican, which is spending the week studying the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Check back to The Great Beyond for daily mission updates.

http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/earth_environment_ecology/oil_spill_science/

We tend to forget that, sometimes. They are editorials, not news. All too often, they are incorrect, too. All opinion needs to be investigated by the careful reader and compared with reliable news sources. I do not read FDL opinion blogs any longer. They are wrong far too often for comfort.

No peer review, no credentials--just some person posting on the internet. But some people here cling to it.

Always has been, especially when an agenda is involved. All that can be done is to point out the flaws in agenda-driven stuff and conspiracy theories. That was why I posted this in the first place.

Government took over harbor in Haiti -- all of it, forcing medical shipments to go

thru Dominican Republic!

New definition of reaction to "emergency" -- !!

No politicians on those planes, I suppose?

It was a full month before medical supplies starting getting thru DR . . .

6 weeks before military opened the port -- !!

back to the chair...


sit down...


research the moon again for a bit or something and calm down

Do you have a credible post anywhere on this thread?

Checked -- and it looks like that post is your one desperate effort on this thread -- !!



:blush:

:rofl:

K&R

didn't renumber the rest. My bad.

Particularly for use of common sense.

I see it for the bush/cheney catastrophe that it is

I remember the first big spill off Santa Barbara. In fact, I was in college at the time, and helped clean oil off rocks on shore. We've been failing at offshore oil production for a very, very long time. We need to take a long, hard look at it and make some difficult decisions. One of those decisions should be to seriously cut our reliance on oil. We haven't done too well at that so far, either. President Obama's call on increased mileage standards for trucks is a step in that direction. More is needed, however.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_enCDXmVj0

(except she isn't a "guy", I suppose)

Yes, this is a complicated situation. But it's the "eggheads" at universities who've told us the truth so far, not the "guys with grease under their fingers" working for BP, thanks very much. BP was criminally unprepared. They could've been prepared. They shouldn't have been allowed to do what they have done in the first place. Was that Obama's fault? Of course not. It probably isn't even Bush's fault. It's the fault of this system. But Obama is allowing this to continue.

Can BP be nationalized? Of course it can. BP officials and Thad Allen should be in prison. If we had even the slightest bit of political sense--or even the slightest bit of sanity--they would be.

It's a strange mix of conspiracy theory, goldbuggery, and assorted other wackiness. I don't think I quite trust the source as a reliable news source. :shrug:

I could never find information as to its origins.

and stopped it right quick, but noooooo.

Just for the record: :sarcasm:

nadinbrzezinski had a great OP on perspective yesterday: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8394460


This is a very complicated situation. To think otherwise is just simple unreasonable and unrealistic.

simple minds. It's a continuing problem.

while the obvious main purpose is to alibi for Obama and get the

criticism to STOP!

Did you really think no one noticed?

Wow!

so what if a few billion gallons toxic sludge conteminates the gulf mexico, atlantic seaboard and the gulf stream etc. WHO CARES! No one cares, that's who. The whining anti-american crowd are no one, and .... to show they care, mister pig has intentionally kept price of oil down....chuckles on wall street, you betcha. Hahaha. We bin snookered! Again...klol! Sara palin is THEE next president. The encyclopedia britannica has already put it in their 2014 edition. Writ in stone.
Well done, cnn foxnews etc! :) god darn that obama feller!

we frickin old bastards blew it, big time. We let liars run the world for decades. In 1980, white well to do males overwhelmingly supported reagan, as he DEFIED the bad guys in the ghettoes and lazing about in prisons etc. Damn right. Greed is good. Drill babby drill. Buy a house with the mastercard. Cowboy country. nukem all. A bush/cheney sticker on the humvee.
btw, i aint dronk. not yet

some direct statements about what you think, rather than whatever it was that you posted. I haven't a clue what you're on about.

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what?

:crazy:

Succinct!

:kick:

Recommended.

Those who have a bee in their bonnet about this man or his administration rush to point the finger, and those who carry water for them arise to herald this as a triumph of leadership.

Your post is very constructive and perfectly true. You could have also added the statistics of marshalling public resources like the Coast Guard.

Still, the true amount of the gusher has been kept more silent than many of us feel it should, and statistical measurements of the spread have too. Characterizing it as a calamity of worldwide proportions might have also brought in more foreign experts and equipment by admitting that we're literally in over our head. It's a mile deep, and that's, if you'll pardon the pun, unfathomable.

On a philosophical level, this simply demonstrates how reckless adventurism in an age of extreme interconnectivity is DISASTER. It's like letting Lehman fail when its holding a fortune in overnight paper: if one link fails, the chain breaks for us all. Drilling or performing ANY dangerous function where there is NO METHOD TO FIX A MISTAKE flies in the face of human reality and should not be allowed. We are cursed with the bravado of the "free market" and the macho swaggering that naysayers are just lily-livered so-and-sos, but the truth is that things happen.

Speaking out about it daily is certainly important, and some of the words used are quite harsh, especially for the finger-pointing, but I personally feel that he's going a bit easy on them, and that this is actually time for the kind of grandstanding and showy leadership that I usually dislike. There is a feeling that he's backing off of really characterizing this as the colossal disaster that it is out of fear of being blamed by the reactionaries (who will hate him whatever he does) and the local tourist and fishery industries.

Still, the overwhelming point you make is quite true: there's not much he can really do about it, and he's doing most of it.

Thank You!

Those who have a bee in their bonnet about this man or his administration rush to point the finger, and those who carry water for them arise to herald this as a triumph of leadership.

Still, the true amount of the gusher has been kept more silent than many of us feel it should, and statistical measurements of the spread have too. Characterizing it as a calamity of worldwide proportions might have also brought in more foreign experts and equipment by admitting that we're literally in over our head. It's a mile deep, and that's, if you'll pardon the pun, unfathomable.

On a philosophical level, this simply demonstrates how reckless adventurism in an age of extreme interconnectivity is DISASTER. It's like letting Lehman fail when its holding a fortune in overnight paper: if one link fails, the chain breaks for us all. Drilling or performing ANY dangerous function where there is NO METHOD TO FIX A MISTAKE flies in the face of human reality and should not be allowed. We are cursed with the bravado of the "free market" and the macho swaggering that naysayers are just lily-livered so-and-sos, but the truth is that things happen.

K&R, especially that last paragraph.

Sid

BP made certain we would not see what the hole looked like for as long as they could so we could not come up with ideas on how to fix it.

They're like a kid who hides a bunch of used car oil over a kid's playroom, then when it breaks through he covers the growing pool of oil with his dad's dollar store's left over Cadmium and Lead laced bling-bling that is too toxic to sell any longer, all in order to hide as much of the spilled oil that he can hide while he claims it's not so bad to his mom trying to minimize his punishment and putting off the actual cleaning so mom will be too busy cleaning to bother punishing him later.

Cheney's ChernOILbyl to be sure.

We need to look at deep sea drilling as a gigantic risk because of the lack of ability to stop a leak that far down in the ocean.

great summary.

What presser?

Seems that Salazar was saying pretty much the same thing I am saying. BP has the equipment. We're keeping a close eye on them as they try to fix what they screwed up. So, I guess I don't understand your point.

It was brief and to the point. I hope there's a transcript or a video around later.

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Did you even watch it?

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to keep promises, time lines -- to deliver what they've promised --

I'll see if I can catch the article on Yahoo --

to people the OP are calling out for their ignorance. Now that oil is starting to hit land and mess up peoples waterfront property, the political heat has been turned up. That means more rhetoric from the administration. But the underlying facts remain - the US does not run the Oil/Gas industry. This is a major disaster caused by BP and unlikely to be fixed by anyone except for those in the Oil/Gas industry.

There certainly should be criminal charges against BP for telling the MMS that they could handle this type of spill when obviously they cannot at these depths. I think Obama knows what a disaster this is and does not want to take ownership of a problem that he cannot fix.