Could the President stop pulling shit like this?

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10807595
It's a fucking shell game. He gets up in front of the cameras and does the "chill out, I got this" routine as a front for business as usual. I expected this of *, but I had hoped for better with Obama.

Bush got the job done, but he was a fucking embarrassment for his sponsors

oregone, we are well and truly eff'd.

getting screwed over by blatant corporate handouts. Then again, Obama did promise change.

his pockets jammed with corporate dough.

:argh:

Admittedly I allowed myself to believe Obama would bring real change. Now I see the kind of *change* he meant.

The sooner everyone wakes up to the massive corruption that is on both sides of the aisle in Washington DC the better!

:puke:

instead of standing up against it.

I guess more specificity is in order next time.
:kick & R

the ONLY thing that will EVER get us change. We get that and we get change. Thats why both sides of the aisle fight it so bitterly.

(and BTW, we have never had an honest election system in the U.S.) is the same reason we cannot fix anything else here. The parasite class owns this fucking place (thankx George).

...that is now sponsoring Obama.

I heard about it from four separate news outlets today in addition to reading it in half a dozen places online.

Obama's been really loud on letting the * tax cuts expire, but there was nary a peep about letting this ban expire.

There was nothing quiet about it. It was part of the announcement.




Area leaders devastated by oil say halting drilling is not the answer





The problem with the Gulf states is that most of the people there support drilling.

The U.S. needs to cut the dependency on oil, starting now.

Some business folks want this and it is after all, an election year. And since the SCOTUS ruling on campaign finance, we must be extra sensitive to those potential donors. Winning is ALL that counts. I NEVER thought I would see anything this bad from a Democratic Administration.This isn't defensible.

There was nothing friggin quiet about the shallow water moratorium ending.

These people.

Area leaders devastated by oil say halting drilling is not the answer






Where is your empathy for them? Guess the self-righteous lectures were bullshit, huh?

:eyes:

In case you're right, let's increase drilling to create jobs and save existing ones. While we're at it, why not expand logging and coal mining? Plenty of jobs to be created there.

Wasn't aware I was quoted in those articles.

You never said that you don't support the position, just that our dependence on oil needs to end in a hypothetical future. Guess what, if we end our dependence on oil, these people will be out of a job anyway.

You can't have it both ways--advocating for their jobs and advocating for getting rid of those same jobs.

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is fitting for you. If Nungessor says it, well, then, it must be true!

Actual fans of Nungessor (and Jindal) would likely be offended.

I could give two shits about either of them.

I remember the K-Mart blue-light specials way back when, but lately I've learned to be on the lookout for light-blue box specials from the admin's PR department. Up is down, war is peace. There is nothing which cannot be twisted in such a manner to make it sound like it's manna from heaven, even though it's only a polished turd.

But then again, that's what the PR department is paid to do, I suppose.

I could not agree more.

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Ignored always has their finger hovering over the "alert" button. We all know what it is, we jut can't speak of it-like so many things today. But until we DO accept the obvious as truth there will be absolutely no hope of "change." No more spin, no more con games, no more public populism and private corruption.

And I really do care about the fisherman and the local businessess. I never ever claimed to care about the people in the oil business. And the fact that after this incident those oil people can claim to be more sorry for themselves than the earth says a lot Those oil folks and associated services brought this on themselves.The other folks did not. I have empathy for the innocent. And I have empathy for the earth.Next you will state that I should be sorry for BP for losing money.

with the workers, their families, the grocery stores they spend their money at, etc etc etc etc etc etc


Can't wait for more of your brilliance.

that sent a man to the moon is too stupid to be able to provide other work for people. And it isn't as if we had anything like a Public Works program or anything. It isn't as if this nation never did anythinbg like that before.:sarcasm:

Oh wait, my bad, there's bound to be a few more trainloads of paper to print money on in a wharehouse somewhere.

Perhaps closing down M+M would save us a ton of money! LOL! And isn't that tax break for the rich supposed to expire soon?

you guessed it: your magical implimentation of a public works program in today's economy.



tody's = today's

but questioning HOW President Obama can magically create jobs overnight, end wars overnight or end dependence on oil overnight, is a big no-no.

according to lots and lots of people on this board.

But, hey this country is slip sliding away anyway, so CONTROVERSY should be avoided at ALL costs! WHATEVER, this Administration does will be DEFENDED fiercely at every turn, don't support what they may do... YOU WILL GET ATTACKED!

What's more, the attacks have gotten to a VISCERAL point! Ugly, nasty and VERY personal! I have never used "ignore" but I post less and less! Had stopped for several weeks UNTIL the DISASTER IN THE GULF, but started again because of where I live!

Cutting back again because I've never owned a pair of BLINDERS!

Just how I'm seeing it and I find it disturbing. Had The Idiot ever done some of this stuff, this place would be exploding! Kind of like that saying... "My Country, Right OR Wrong!" Some call this PROGRESS, but there are MANY here who find it jaw-dropping! Guess I belong in the latter group!

ENOUGH... out of here! Resume play!!

And we all know that the Corporations are well oiled Propaganda machines..

End the Wars, and we stop consuming 30% of the Annual Oil consumed in America. Nobody ever talks about that little fact.

No one has been asking for any magic, nor for anything to happen overnight. People are disturbed about the direction, not by the progress.

You know damned well that what people were led to believe during the campaign and what is happening are miles apart. Don't blame those who are pointing that out. It is not their fault.

Apparently, we also want him to "don a swimsuit and plug the hole himself". And just yesterday, I heard we also hold Obama responsible for dog poop on the street. :wtf:

Step one: Tell the troops to start packing.

(I think you see where this is going)

You still think Obama is doing a good job?

... except when he isn't, but we don't know because not enough time has passed to know if he has done a bad job or not... except for when he is doing a good job, in which case we don't need to wait.

Or something like that. It is hard to follow the logic sometimes. I most definitively was not expecting that "change" would mean that some Dems display the same blind allegiance of the president right or wrong as the Bushites did for those long 8 years.

Obama has done somethings right, but has gotten a lot of things very very very wrong. He is a center-right kind of guy, and that may be OK for the moderate conservatives in the Dem "tent." So I can totally see where they are coming from, it is their expectation to have liberals suspend their connection with reality, logic, and their ideology/interests which bothers me a little.

to cult-of-personality behavior as Repubs. I don't think it's been this bad (i.e. hero worship) for us since JFK (who was something of a mixed bag in my view). I have an older friend who still will not entertain the idea that JFK was a major philanderer! And my friend is an extremely erudite historian. I guess we're all capable of that trap to some extent. I know I can get trapped on Al Gore and to some extent FDR and Jerry Brown.

where there's a will, there's a way. :shrug:

And raise taxes on the rich. The latter may be difficult in an election year. The former is completely within the power of a "Democratic" president.

There is a problem here that must be tackled and tackled now. This is about survival and building a future not trying to do nothing to save a few bucks that won't matter at all if we keep going down this path.

and end the war on drugs.

Wind and solar programs that can provide jobs, no can't do that.

Thats a quote for yesterday..

Don't forget patented GMO bacteria for Biofuel so we can keep the same Oxygen burning Internal Combustion Engines so people can waste time in Traffic getting to and from their little cubicles in the Corporate daycare and wealth transfer center!

Oh yeah. Organic

You are partially correct though, Organic Spinach requires water to live, and water is a major component of spinach, so semantically, in a "Prosense" sort of way, that is a true statement.

and liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen for the upper stages.

Now LOX and Liquid Hydrogen as well as Nitrogen tetroxide and hydrazine are typical and the first ion drives are online.

No, they didn't fill up at Texaco on the way, if that was the question.

It's been 40 years. Turn off Faux "news" and try reading up a bit. The technology has existed for a good long time to wean ourselves off the fossil fuel teet, but the political will doesn't exist. And poor ignorant plebs like yourself get drafted into Big Oil's war against innovation. He who controls energy controls the world. Your master pulls a lot of strings, including YOURS, and you just bend over and say "YES! YES! STICK IT TO ME!" You're paying more for EVERYTHING and are killing all of God's Creation for what? To make a few fat white boys richer? Come on now; think outside the fossil fuel box. Clean RENEWABLE energy saves billions. Just ask the Dutch.

gotta go easy on him. ;-)

Obama saved those jobs.

Let THEM run through their savings waiting for the elitist bastards in the company-owned WH to DO something.

How about imposing the normal rules for safety that they have in Europe?
- They have to have not only working BOP's but also the acoustic backup BOP's.
- No drilling until both of these are in place and passed stringent testing.
- Any rig or well that got environmental waivers is closed until they actually pass environmental inspection.
- No drilling until each rig proves it has sufficient boom and trained people with boats on standby
- Change of rules where anyone can push emergency button to activate the safety equipment.
- After all of these are in place, and the cap is removed so oil co's are 100% responsible for clean up and loss mitigation, then ()

I think most Americans would feel better about drilling with these commonsense safeguards, even though I still wouldn't like it and think the damn things should just be closed and we start a massive effort to switch to renewable energy sources and to greatly reduce the oil we are using now.

do I really need a sarcasm tag there?

and they can find new fields just like many of us. It doesn't make sense to do something generally suicidal as a fake ass jobs program.

but will be far less dangerous and costly in the long run. New tech requires new training no matter who does it-may as well be the people who already work in the energy industry.

Don't be so willfully obtuse. Try thinking outside of the Big Oil narrative for a change.

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until his state was about to drown in oil. Bobby Jindal is trying to make political hay out of an emergency for which Obama is not responsible.

Bobby Jindal should be addressing the issue of safety in the Gulf before advocating for more drilling.

We in California tried to bring in strict environmental standards for our cars and severely limit off-shore drilling. Why should we have to pay to clean up for Louisianans? So that they can burn infinite amounts of oil and dirty the environment for the entire world.

Off-shore drilling, if it must be done, must be done responsibly. That means having equipment available to clean up messes like the one that is now hitting Louisiana's shores. Don't create a mess if you don't know how you are going to clean it up.

Louisiana needs to support stricter fuel standards for cars, trucks and the end of the burning of oil for heat.

Oil is precious. We need it for many, many things like making plastics, medical equipment, fertilizers, etc. We should not be burning oil, or at least, we should be burning as little oil as we can. The earth does not contain an unlimited amount of oil. We should burn as little oil as we can.

The federal government did. The spill is in federal waters. The rig was inspected by federal inspectors. The rig was given a pass on inspection by the current administration. Louisiana DOESN'T BURN OIL FOR HEAT, because it has one of the largest supplies of natural gas on the planet.

Holy shit you're clueless.

I for one have natural gas. There are dangers in the natural gas pipelines also.

So nice to see such concern for your fellow man.

off-shore drilling. Are we somewhat poorer because we don't have as much of it as we might? Yes. We tried to impose stricter CAFE standards for cars and trucks. I think we had trouble doing it. The rest of the country needs to impose stricter standards on the burning of petroleum.

heh.

the companies have resubmitted their plans for an emergency and proved that they can handle any emergency that might arise.

What good is it to have a job if your workplace is so unsafe that you could lose your life under certain circumstances. This spill was a wake-up call.

BP claimed it was ready for an emergency. It was not. Now the oil industry has to organize itself so that it has a strategy, a plan available just in case this or something similar happens in the future.

Agree completely.

sshhhhh don't let anyone know about those!

and it's going to get worse. $4 dollars and up gas will spell doom for the dems in the upcoming elections and the future. now what do you think would happen with the repugs running things.

You poor thing....

Lets see, in order to create the largest economy in the world, despite the crushing cost of energy, the Japanese have extensive mass transit, and "Gasp" maglev train technology!

Yep, the 4 buck per litre cost sure was devastating to their economy...

It's apparent that you are the one with your head in the sand, as Amtrak gets underfunded, our railroad system is suitable for running cattle, and the Hummer gets tax credits... Wake up.

"Salazar said..."

And there lies the problem. Salazar is conflicted, and should not have been put in that job. Obama made a bad choice, and Salazar should be replaced. I understand the department was a mess when Salazar took over, but he has a LOT of connections to the oil industry.

Why put a recovering alcoholic in charge of the liquor cabinet?

Where's the change in that? Didn't we have oil men in there before?

My bad.

If you want to give them a job making more money I'm sure they'd take it.

for the nonsense peddlers

tiring for sure.

too much to ask? In the name of the 11 dead workers on Deepwater Horizon.

He stands up and says what he thinks you want to hear while he continues doing what he knows you don't want to do as quietly and secretly as possible. He is a spoiler and a hypocrite, and his endless drilling will destroy our coastlines.

Talks a really good intelligent game when in front of cameras, then once the lights are off, does things totally in conflict with his stated direction. Just like Jeb did.

Nothing gained, nothing lost. Just keeping us in a holding pattern until the next RW monstrosity gets in office. (Actually, come to think of it, there have been some losses.)

He has widened the war in Afghanistan to Pakistan, Yemen, and we are still in Iraq. He is saber rattling at Iran and North Korea. Maybe he can draft the BP officials because we are going to run out of enlisting soldiers if he keeps this up. Feel a draft?

He has continued issuing permits for offshore drilling after the BP fiasco and still states that he supports deep water drilling even though there seems to be no fix if something goes wrong. It is like a doctor telling you. "I'll start the surgery, and figure out how to finish it once I'm in there." Would you go for that? This is no different, only he is playing fossil fuel roulette with the whole planet.

Then there the supreme court decision he won under cover of his Health Care mess. It allows torture as a tool of interrogation, rendition to countries outside the US where individuals he or his administration have declared to be unlawful detainees can be held in secret without being charged, given benefit of an attorney or Habeas Corpus. The decision also allows military tribunals which can be held in secret without anyone holding the tribunal accountable. Constitution? What's that? Ask Obama, he is the constitutional scholar. He made legal actions and powers Bush could only use illegally and secretly.

Have you tried to find a job lately? House payments current? Been to the supermarket? Bush started the spiral but Obama has not done much to make it any better. Tax the rich? God forbid. It might be inconvenient for them. But the poor and homeless and people who used to make up the middle class can sleep in the gutter for all he has done to alleviate the situation. About 70 people froze to death in the US because they could not afford to pay for heating fuel, and there was no longer any subsidy of any kind to help them.

I could go on and on, but I am tired and it won't help anything until the primaries come around and I can try to help elect some more enlightened Democrats instead of pretend Democrats and Conservatives in Democratic clothing. The less said about the Health Care bill the better. I don't want to start cussing and spray my monitor with venom.

Why should we be any different? Governments are the crowd control subsidiary of Capital, we should expect no help from that quarter, we are on our own. In solidarity is our only hope.

every right to expect it. Expectations don't always equate with reality, but that doesn't mean you give up and just let them have everything. I heard Pete Seeger sing "This Land is Your Land" once and he was very careful on the second line to emphasize the "my" in "this land is my land," each time he sang it. I'm an old Quaker lady and I'm with him. The US belongs to everyone. I am not going to sit on my commodious butt and say and do nothing because people are trying to take more than their fair share and destroy us and the rest of the land in the process. We need to stand with each other, and we need to insist on help. Whether we get it or not, we need to keep trying.

Do not petition, rather demand.

no violence involved. When I was very young during Viet Nam, I used to take to the streets and demonstrate and demand an end to that war and various other governmental actions I knew were wrong. I got hit, kicked, shoved, spat upon and tear gassed. I didn't love it but I survived. I know there are people taking such actions now as well, but the problem is those actions are not reported by any mainstream media. You have to go hunting for them on the internet in blogs or websites or even in papers of other nations which do report them. You have to find the pictures and videos that have been taken at the time usually by the participants or you don't see them. So if the tree falls in the forest in total isolation, has it really fallen? People assume that we are more quiescent and accepting than we really are. The isolation does not help it, it helps the powers that be to promulgate the myth that they have a population that is pleased with their actions and provenances.

If you want to participate in a direct action, a demonstration, a vigil, a visit to a legislative office, go to the AFSC website. They usually have a list of events and a contact number where you can find other things that are being done close to where you live. We are not selling religion, we are invested in social justice and trying to bring about positive change for those who have nothing or nothing but despair.

If I have mistaken the meaning of what you are posting, please excuse me. I have MS, and today is a pain day. It makes it hard to think and interpret and limits reason.

in his words: "make me do it."

Obama needs to take some responsibility for his decisions and stop talking out of both sides of his mouth -- from one side when he speaks to corporate representatives and the tools of the corporations in the Senate and House and the other when he speaks to members of OFA. The worst example of that was his handling of health care reform. On Friday he gave a speech to OFA members and stated he was for a public option. All the while he was working against a public option. That's as two-faced as it comes.

it won't stop until we put an end to capitalism.

It's like a big FU to the people getting oiled right now.
It is adding insult to injury.

I guess the real message is that, well, FU.

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:evilgrin:

Democratic Party run him if you want.

I'd like to see a primary challenge by Grayson or the like. I'd work for him in a heartbeat.

I'm done with him unless there is some big turn around that he makes. :mad:

I will vote 3rd party or for any Democratic challenger to the left.

It seems to be all politics, no principles.

And on top of that, no consistent message.

Someday, perhaps soon, it is going to blow up in their faces, wounding all of us.

Sad.

... remember that a lot of people in DU specially, think of "pragmatism" as the best thing since sliced bread.

Except that this is not "all politics" all of the contrary actually. Politics would imply some sort of ideological level, which at least would force politicians to adhere to some baseline of ideological expectations, and people would then be able to at least understand the context of the policies due to their ideological origination.

This is something else, this is politicians trying to have it both ways: use their own personal interests as the excuse for policy creation. When that happens, politics ends and oligarchy begins.

Note how many people, in DU even, for example would defend or excuse Obama not doing the right thing as it being not conductive to his reelection prospects, or limiting the electoral chances of the Democrats, or not being "realistic" (never mind there is no actual definition of what makes something "realistic" thus the massive intellectually dishonest approach to debate reeks of hypocrisy). It is not about whether politicians are doing the right or wrong thing for the people they are supposed to represent and work for, but whether or not the career/interests of the politicians are served. Seeing people actually think that way makes me weep for this country, and at the same time it makes me very impressed with the brainwashing and PR efforts that the conservatives have engaged for the better part of 4 decades. One has gotta give the devil its dues....

"never mind there is no actual definition of what makes something "realistic" thus the massive intellectually dishonest approach to debate reeks of hypocrisy"

Realistic=likely to win on election day.
Is that enough of a definition for you?

which last I checked is actually rather "unrealistic." If you already know what is "likely to win an election," why holding elections to begin with? Seems like a waste of time, no?

So it is not about the "amount" of definition which I am seeking in this case, but rather correctness is what I am interested in when it comes to definitions.

Thanks for proving the point of my previous post though. LOL

If you added up the total votes for Dean and Kucinich you will find they they never had the RAW numbers to win the nomination. If you added the Nader votes, while they were enough to make Gore lose in 200, they were never enough to win the Presidency.

Let me ask you this bluntly, can a candidate that is far enough left for you actually get enough votes to win the Presidency of the United States? Can that person beat the Democrats and Republicans?

Has anyone EVER come remotely close?

That's why we see the sabers rattling against South Korea, Iran, and crickets when it comes to Israel's state sponsored terrorism.

That's why the president of Germany and Prime Minister of Japan have recently resigned, most likey to prepary for the serf uprising just around the corner.

Thats why we see Thailand in bloody street fighting with troops against farmers with chile pepper granades, and Jamaicans standing up for "Drug Lords" that are more popular than Obama.

Something is afoot fellow DU'ers..

Edit to add the already eclipsed Greek Tragedy.

It seems to be all politics, no principles.

And on top of that, no consistent message.

Someday, perhaps soon, it is going to blow up in their faces, wounding all of us.

Sad.

I used to look forward to his speeches and appearances. Now I don't bother because if he says anything good I figure he's going to walk it back or secretly work against it.

:shrug:

prices would start to go up. the last thing we need with a economy that is trying to recover. just my 2 cents.

I think that the last thing we need is subsequent disasters that could devestate the economy of an entire region.

year after year after year. I suggest we invade Canada and take their oil. They are number 2 in the the world for oil reserves. And it isn't far for the Army to travel.















:sarcasm:

It ain't so cheap when you have to add in random client states, environmental impact, Pax-Americana, and cripplingly expensive resource wars.

$3 and $4 a gallon is not only fraud but theft from the future.

Basically, Thom compared what Bush did to what Obama is doing and that is to continue Bush's policies instead of stopping them. I think Obama is being owned by the OILigarchy and probably doesn't have a whole lot of say except to go along so he can have some oversight on what they are doing.

Shallow water drilling is way safer. You drama queens just need something to winge about.

You should go first....

:rofl:

Shallow water drilling is "safer" eh? Given that one of the biggest oil "spills" to date happened on shallow water, chances are you really don't know what the fuck you are talking about, but as usual I don't think that constitutes much of an impediment for your entitlement to "school us" LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I_oil_spill

they must be getting desperate!

Here. Let me introduce you to my little friend: www.aptera.com

Will he? No. The fix is in and the writing is on the wall. Some here are trying to spin this for all it's worth, but it isn't working. The stakes are too high. Obama has made it clear time and time again whose back he has. We have the best government money can buy. Silly me, I thought a "Democrat" would be better than this. :thumbsdown:

just like they did for BP - since there's a mere 30 days to complete it in. It's mind boggling.

Looks like knickers were twisted for no good reason this time...

Source: Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 3, 2010; 1:54 PM

The Minerals Management Service has stopped issuing permits for new oil and gas drilling in the Gulf of Mexico regardless of water depth, effectively extending President Obama's previously announced suspension of permits for deepwater drilling into the shallow waters.

Thanks to ClarkUSA for posting!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x325220

Tell Tattoo and Mr Roarke hullo for me and I'll be over as soon as my schedule allows to be the Kentucky Basketball Coach and have Ashley Judd on my arm for a weekend.

Seems too many were too quick to put Obama's head on the block... again... and didn't wait until the other shoe had dropped.

Tell Ash I said hey.

"The Obama administration is blocking all new offshore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, a day after regulators approved a new permit for drilling in shallow water.

The Minerals Management Service, which oversees offshore drilling, says in an e-mail from its Gulf Coast office that "until further notice" no new drilling is being allowed in the Gulf, "no matter the water depth." A copy of the e-mail was obtained by The Associated Press.

The announcement comes a day after the MMS granted a new drilling permit for a site about 50 miles off the Louisiana coast, 115 feet below the ocean surface. Environmental groups said the administration was misleading the public by allowing work to resume in waters up to 500 feet deep while maintaining a moratorium on deepwater drilling."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/03/gulf-oil-spill-feds-halt-_n_599491.html

...

I'm sure that had we all gone along with it it silence, they would have done the right thing anyway...

:sarcasm:

whining will commence - ignoring the hundreds of wells operating there as we speak.

Someone needs to get fired over this--it'd be irresponsible to keep people in positions of authority who are going to undermine the boss.

I'm glad I wrote to the White House.

bear in mind I wish we could stop using petrochemicals RIGHT NOW... what do you offer to replace the oily stuff from all the uses we have for it, RIGHT NOW, ready to go...

Whether I like it or not, until we have things ready to take over from oil, we are pretty much stuck.

Look around your house... at least 95% of what you got there was produced with oil and the other five percent got there with petrochemicals. Yes, that is how deep down the rabbit hole we are.

You are right Nadine, but policy still caters to the Automobile and the Military.

I can't force the government to implement mass transit or stop the wars.

We eat the stuff, we type on the stuff, we clean with the stuff... we medicate with the stuff... I could go on and on and on.

But truth be told, the Green Revolution actually uses more oil than the military does. Don't get me wrong. an Abrams is not quite fuel efficient... but they are just in the top five users.

That said the military actually gets it... why they are ahead of the power curve in the research, and not because they like hugging trees... it is the logistics stupid. But one of their solutions is a faustian one. Do I want oil, or food?

Oh and if the Green Revolution stopped TODAY, we'd see a population collapse of biblical proportions. (Yes what billion starves to death this year?)

I mow acres of land with a Machete. My 2.5 gallons of pre mix fuel for the chain saw has lasted me 8 months. I sharpen my tools with files and water stones.

My chickens deal with pests, and they are quite well fed and tasty. I have lots of trees, and th majority of those trees produce food at one point or another throughout the year. I let weeds do their thing and work for me. I no longer endeavor for a scorched earth approach, ever.

That is the true green revolution, not some greenwashing of unsustainable farming practices by co-opted big organic, using a broken till the soil dies agricultural system.

Plastics and medicines are what is going to take precendence when the Peak Oil dillema truly comes home to roost.

Don't look now, but there is a more serious issue that is being ignored.. All the cheap Potash will be gone in twenty years or so.

Now I don't know how knowledgable you are regarding modern agriculture, but when Potash is gone, so are the big farms. It will be an earthshaking event for the world population, and nobody is talking about it but a few weak voiced canaries in the distance.

an industrial farm, on the other hand, is not that efficient, if you want to put it that way.



This is not what you are using, is it?

And that is what we are using for this...



and this



As far as the eye can see. The only reason why we can engage in heavy industrial monoculture... no crop rotation any more, is because of these



That is what I am talking about. A modern US Industrial operation produces more food than ever before in history... and it is chemically dependent.

Oil supports 90% of the population being able to move off of the farm in this country, it does not support farming.

It is the non-farming population that is dependent upon oil, not farming. The food grows fine without oil.

This is a lie - "we cannot question the oil industry, because without them we would starve."

Food is trucked all over for corporate profits, not because food production is dependent on oil. Tractors allowed a large percentage of the farm population to move to the city, it didn't otherwise change food production - it changed the labor need.

Oil based fertilizer was cheap for a long time. As the price has risen all of the farmers in the counties around here have gone to manure.

It just shifted the labor inputs and allowed a lot of people to become urbanized.

Unfortunately, city life is by definition, unsustainable without massive inputs brought in from elsewhere.

Noone ever thinks about the wasted nutrients that have been carted away from the farms, then flushed into a toxic cesspool of sewage treatment, never to be returned to the agricultural cycle ever again.

Instead of feeding future crops, the modern american chooses to mix his waste with fresh, potable water and chemicals and feed it to pathological organisms instead of plants that would actually use it to produce more food.

The insanity that this represents will come home to roost very shortly.

I'm also debt free, feed lots and lots of people, and don't and toxic residue to dispose of.

Oh gosh, I guess I am at a disadvantage though.. I actually hire workers that like to work in clean air and the understory instead of sweltering in the shadeless expanses of "Modern Farms"

Looks like you don't really know a thing about agriculture Nadine, if all you can envision is a 150,000 tractor as a necessity of growing something that is designed to grow on it's own...

I am betting your management includes crop rotation... which industrial agriculture does not engage in... or am I missing something here?

By the way cheap food policy DEPENDS on these, medium to long term, unsustainable messes.

But by your own admission you also HIRE people... so you do not need a tractor to do a lot of the work, or a combine. By your own admission you are not running an industrial farm. And somehow I suspect yours, while large, is nowhere close in size or scope to some of the larger monsters...

I am very critical of our "modern industrial agriculture" since it is all but sustainable. But I also realize that it NEEDS all that crap, and that is what MOST muricans are currently EATING.

I don't even know where to start with that mess of a post.

I am not at all sure that it is.

why we hit peak oil. We are in that deep because the shallow stuff is mostly gone.

Welcome to peak oil by the way.

That said, where do you want to get your oily stuff from? Sandy Shales? Another source by the way in Canada, and will not come "on line" for real until it makes money. Right now they'd loose money doing that. Just like they would have lost money drilling in those depths, oh 20 years ago.

Yes there is a problem with it, a real problem, and I wish we could STOP RIGHT NOW... but in the real world, we will need oil not in a short term, but a medium term, until we are able to get all the replacements needed... and that assumes we are able to.

My worst nightmares is that we don't... and the civilization, a global civilization, collapses.

We shouldn't do things that we don't know how to do (o refuse to do, more likely) safely.

Especially when the consequences of one mistake can lead to global catastrophe.

Corners have been cut and we are now reaping the tragic consequences.

Time to shift gears and make sure that we have an "off" switch on all of these wells until we can finally make the transition.

If it isn't already too late, that is.

but because we are now in the depths of the Sixth Grand Extinction. Yes, people in the sciences have been talking about this for oh the last twenty years. And no, it did not start NOW... but started to be noticed over thirty years ago. You know when people with PhDs noticed that species were dying at alarming rates, and that has just accelerated.

This is not the reason for that by the way.

And if we go through that the EARTH will recover, as in life will recover, like it's done the last five times. We are not going to stop being a porshce planet in the life zone for another 1.5 billion years, plenty of time for earth to recover twice and develop TWICE tool makers, through evolution.

Now I know how people like to scream, but this is killing the ocean... no it is not... now if you had this with a few other events, such as global weather change... and why I suspect we will see a population crash (for humans that is) if not outright extinction... and no, it is not because Gaia is shaking us off... sorry if I do not subscribe to that bit of deep WOO thinking. It is simply top species have not made it through the other five major extinctions... we just might since we make tools. I'm not counting on it. Why? Quick, what is the average from the fossil record for species? 150,000 years...

But then, maybe they just "like to scream"..... (kinda like those "bashers" I read about up thread?).....

I expected more for you.

Oh, and PS: I have a PhD myself.

(Not in science, admittedly.....)

Nighty night.

I get it... but I will not be joining anybody in the screaming about how this is killing the gulf...

And you know what? I have compared this to... a US version of Chernobyl... the only difference, lack of radiation. But yes it will be that deep, and that long term, aka at least a human generation. We, as a society, will pay a price. But I am not going to join anybody in screaming that this will kill the gulf.

And if we are indeed about to see that population crash, unless you are at the gulf, that will be least of your concerns, and most likely you and I will be dead.

Now since you have a PhD, go google what a population crash is, perhaps then it will make sens why I typed what I typed about that being the least of your troubles... but here is a hint, the Black Death was the last time humans saw a population crash, albeit locally.

And am willing to bet that some people were "screaming" back in those days too.

What is this "screaming" that seems to offend you so much anyway?

Is it aimed at me? Cause all I am doing right now is TYPING.

allow this... and they were doing the END OF THE WORLD DANCE...

See any similarities? There is more, we are in the midst of a millenarian period in western civ, and this shit will not stop until 2033 at the very least.

What is your point?

People should lie down and die quietly?

:shrug:

PS. I am not a "millenialist" or a historical determinist of any kind.

That doesn't mean we are not necessarily doomed.

Just that I don't see a predetermined "pattern" in the unfolding of events, as your posts seem to be suggesting.

I was just rightly upset that after the President says, "no new offshore drilling," the MMS approved a new permit. Your question is tangential to the (now resolved) issue.

systems analysis, that is the name of the game.

And it sucks by the way...

they use most of it

~~~~~~~~~~~

The US military is the biggest purchaser of oil in the world.

In 1999 Almanac edition of the Defense Logistic Agency’s news magazine Dimensions it was stated that the DESC “purchases more light refined petroleum product than any other single organization or country in the world. With a $3.5 billion annual budget, DESC procures nearly 100 million barrels of petroleum products each year. That's enough fuel for 1,000 cars to drive around the world 4,620 times.”

..more..



http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN20416568



FACTBOX-US military fuel spending
Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:58pm EDT

U.S. military fuel consumption dwarfs energy demand in many countries around the world, adding up to nearly double the fuel use in Ireland and 20 times more than that of Iceland, according to the U.S. Department of Energy.

From the start of the Iraq war in 2003 up till 2007, U.S. military fuel consumption has slipped by about 10 percent, but costs more than doubled due surging oil prices.

Following are the latest figures on the cost and amounts of fuel purchased by the U.S. military over the course of the Iraq war:

U.S. MILITARY FUEL SPENDING:^

2003: $ 5.21 billion

2007: $12.61 billion

Percentage increase: 142 percent

U.S MILITARY FUEL CONSUMPTION

2003: 145.1 million barrels

(397,500 barrels per day)

2007: 132.5 million barrels

(363,000 barrels per day)

Percentage change: -9.5 percent

2007 U.S. MILITARY FUEL CONSUMPTION EQUALS

- 90 percent more than Ireland's annual consumption

- 38 percent more than Israel's annual consumption

- 20 times Iceland's annual consumption

- 1.7 percent of U.S. annual consumption

AVERAGE ESTIMATED CRUDE OIL PRICE PER BARREL:

2003: $32.50

2007: $72.50

CRUDE OIL PRICE CHANGE SINCE BEGINNING OF IRAQ WAR:

March 19, 2003: $ 29.88*

March 19, 2008: $103.25*

Percentage increase: 245 percent


<snip>

the Military is number one ONLY if you take into account engines. You add silly shit like industrial processes, oh like insecticides, agriculture takes over.

Not a popular thing, but we stopped that RIGHT NOW... not only people would starve on the other side of the world, but I am betting in the Continental US.

still available.

Yup, I'm calling for some good old NIMBY and drinking everyone else's milkshake while we make our transition over the next couple of decades.

you think this resource wars are ugly right now, that solution would make it ten times as bad

So who are you willing to send to the meat grinder? You perhaps?

:banghead:

Are we dealing with three years olds? Anymore I think we are

Oh and on edit you think this is the ONLY well out there? There are LITERALLY thousands of them on the gulf, hard to put that genie back in the damn bottle by the way.

Who said anything about sending anyone to the meat-grinder?

I would propose that we should fix the current problem (if possible!) and, after hopefully "learning" from this catastrophe (if we are still capable of "learning") institute much stricter regulations that should be imposed as quickly as possible on the extant drilling sites... to bring them up to a newly established code.

At the same time, until we are weaned from the oil to a significant extent, we should invest seriously in improved prevention and clean-up technology.

This will of course, cost lots of money.

we should have learned that lesson after the Ixtoc One...

Look at the time line for that one... any similarities are just coincidental. Really, and that goes to the improved safety. IF we follow that pattern, we will see more regulations until memories of this fade, and the industry manages to get rid of them.

That said this poster is all for NO drilling in the gulf... well first stopping that kind of not doable.

Second, it would lead to resource wars that will make Iraq look like just a summer stroll in the garden.

And it dangerously resembles a convenient excuse to do nothing.

nor will they ever happen in human history.

Okie dokie, I think we are more than just done...

Have a good life by the way.

Remember, as a historian, I tend to resist deterministic and mechanistic views of history.

Accident, stupidity, and even, on occasion, the determination to resist the powers that be (and their narratives of "inevitability") also play their part in the history of humanity, and of the universe.

...of what seems to be indifferent, condescending contempt for the suffering of your fellow human beings.

I suspect that behind all this posturing about cycles of extinction there is a human being who is deeply afraid.

Afraid of caring about what is happening.

Any and all critics of corporations are met with fear mongering. Wall Street, the health insurance industry, big oil - "OMG you people don't understand how dependent we are on them, and if they go down all hell will break loose. Just look at history." But then somehow we never get around to "looking at history." Lots of scary scenarios, though, should we question corporations in any way.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/5/28/bp_oil_spill_confirmed_as_worst


BP Oil Spill Confirmed as Worst in US History; Environmental Groups Challenge Continued Oil Operations in Gulf Excluded from New Moratorium

Although President Obama has extended the moratorium on new deepwater drilling permits for six months and halted operations at thirty-three deepwater wells in the Gulf of Mexico, some oil rigs are continuing their operations. The Center for Biological Diversity has filed a lawsuit to halt forty-nine offshore drilling plans in the Gulf of Mexico that were approved without full environmental review. Meanwhile, the group Food & Water Watch is leading an effort to shut down the Atlantis, another BP oil rig in the Gulf. The group warns an oil spill from the Atlantis could be many times larger than the current spill and even harder to stop. (includes rush transcript)



<snip>
Wenonah Hauter, let’s begin with you. Your response to President Obama going to the Gulf, what you think needs to happen right now?

WENONAH HAUTER: Well, the first thing that needs to happen is that the BP Atlantis platform needs to be shut down before we have another accident. For the last year, we’ve been trying to get MMS to act on this, and we now believe that it’s President Obama who needs to take action in shutting down this very dangerous platform. We filed suit last week against MMS, demanding that the platform be shut down. And we’re asking people to go to the website www.spillthetruth.org and ask President Obama to shut it down immediately.

AMY GOODMAN: Just one minute on this issue of Atlantis. I don’t think most people realize that these oil—deep sea oil drilling sites are continuing now, as they talk about moratoriums and the closings of, shutting down of these in the Gulf of Mexico. Wenonah Hauter, where is the Atlantis deep sea oil drilling rig?

WENONAH HAUTER: The Atlantis is 150 miles offshore from New Orleans, and it’s 7,000 feet deep. So it’s much deeper than the Horizon. And none of the safety documentation has been verified. So we’re very concerned that there could be an accident at any time.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And in terms of this particular platform’s importance to the general Gulf oil production, how big is it? And why is there such a resistance to looking at it?

WENONAH HAUTER: Well, it produces 8.4 million gallons of oil every day. And so, if there were to be a spill, it would be five—it could be five times larger than the Horizon spill within five days. And the thing is that we have a lot of evidence about what’s going on with BP Atlantis because of a whistleblower, but we suspect that this is the case with all of the deepwater platforms.
<snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060302738.html?hpid=topnews


By Steven Mufson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 3, 2010; 3:05 PM

The Interior Department denied that it has extended a drilling freeze to shallow waters of the Gulf of Mexico, contradicting an e-mail written earlier Thursday by the Minerals Management Service's supervisor of field operations for the Gulf of Mexico.

An Interior Department spokesman said "shallow water drilling may continue as long as oil and gas operations satisfy the environmental and safety requirements Secretary Salazar outlined in his report to the President and have exploration plans that meet those requirements. There is no moratorium on shallow water drilling."

Who is Running the Ship Over There?

That said, even they are being ill-served by the bumbling Keystone Kops at Interior.

We're still addicted to oil - we will have to keep drilling until we fix that.

cheaper if we keep drilling?

It is an important question. If the extra oil we get from drilling off our shores makes gas cheaper, by how much a gallon? A penny? I'd be surprised if it was a whole penny. The drilling is to make oil companies more rich and to keep money going to the political parties in the U.S.

When a new contract is awarded off of say Virginia where does this money go? The local gov't, the Federal gov't, poor people, etc?

I wish we had real journalists in this country that would ask these questions.

There is so little solidarity in the democratic party. I seem to read just as much gripping about Obama on here after 1.5 years in office as I did about Bush in year eight. All this internal bickering plays right into the republican's hand, not to mention the mass media. It seems every democrat believes 'their' cause is the most important and needs to be dealt with immediately. God forbid,in the democratic party, he who looks at the big picture, like health care, and gets a bill passed by any means....knowing it is only a starting point.... it seems he will be branded a loser or traitor by many. I just do not understand why we publicly lambaste our parties leader. The only things it accomplishes is weakening the party and reducing our chances of passing bills.

The above comments are just my opinion. Feel free to respond, but if it is just a nasty post, consider this...that is the behavior of a teabagger.

"I'm not a member of an organized political party. I'm a Democrat."

when the top dogs in our party behave like teabaggers ("drill baby drill") then they no longer represent any democrats.

Where do you come up with this crap?

Turning a blind eye to the wrongs of our leaders simply because they're in 'our' party is actually tea-bagger behavior--you got it backwards. I think you forget that our elected leaders are expected to be loyal to those who elected them, not the other way around.

Also, the role DU plays in getting legislation through congress isn't nearly as vital as you might think.

MMS suspends permits for Gulf drilling regardless of water depth

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4410935

It reads: Interior Dept. denies it has extended drilling freeze to shallow gulf waters

The Interior Department denied Thursday that it has extended a drilling freeze to shallow waters of the Gulf of Mexico, contradicting an e-mail written earlier in the day by the Minerals Management Service's supervisor of field operations for the Gulf of Mexico.

The confusion started when MMS rescinded some shallow water permits issued earlier in the week. Michael J. Saucier, regional supervisor of field operations for the MMS Gulf of Mexico region, sent identical emails to at least two companies whose drilling permits were rescinded, saying that "until further notice we have been informed not to approve or allow any drilling not matter the water depth." Earlier in the week, he had told one of the companies that drilling in water up to 500 feet deep would not be affected by the Obama moratorium...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060302738.html?hpid=topnews

You see, things change with time.

This reminds me of when Dukakis was asked in a debate if he would still be against capital punishment if his wife was raped. Dukakis gave an emotionless boiler plate answer without ever saying he would naturally be distraught and want to kill the rapist, that's human nature. He should have said something like that with feeling before getting into his opposition to capital punishment. Because his answer was so unemotional he was roasted for this and lost the election for that as much as anything else. Obama similarly is unemotional about the leak, like he's the Bean Counter In Chief or something. People want to see that he cares and they don't get that in his bland statements and "I'm on the job" press briefings.

It is very similar to the bland, I-don't-care statements of Tony Hayward.

The two of them in their demeanor talk as if they don't care.

After the Times reported this, the White House dutifully piped up with a statement saying Obama is "furious" at BP. Well woopie ding dong. All this tells us is that Obama and the people around him spend a lot of time with their finger in the wind.

Obama is leading the Democratic party to disaster in the Fall.

This is what you get from phony-ass DLC Dems......

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/06/caught_in_the_oil.html

Horrifying photos of the victims of this shell game.

Let grief become anger, let anger steel our resolve.

Kill Capitalism