Joe Biden on the assault on the Marmara: "So What's The Big Deal Here?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/jun/02/joe-biden-israel-gaza-flotilla-raid

"US Vice President Joe Biden has offered the Obama administration's strongest defence of Israel's Gaza flotilla raid to date, in a interview on US television this evening, saying: 'Israel has an absolute right to deal with its security interest.'

Appearing on PBS's Charlie Rose Show, Biden defended Israel's action in boarding the Gaza flotilla as "legitimate". After suggesting the flotilla's cargo of aid could have been unloaded elsewhere, Biden appears to brush off the international criticism, asking: 'So what's the big deal here? What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza?'

He then makes it clear that Washington is happy for Israel to conduct its own investigation of the incident that led to nine deaths and dozens of injuries, although Biden added: 'but we're open to international participation'.


Makes you feel SO very proud that he's a heartbeat away from the presidency, doesn't it?

Thanks, Joe...just...thanks...

:sarcasm: :puke:

Just saying...

Were you aware that the autopsys showed the victims were shot in the head at close range?

That's street justice, not self-defense.

Just like BP should investigate itself!

can be investigated by the people who murdered him. Good to know.

WTF are you talking about?

The autopsys showed all the victims on the Marmara were shot in the head at close range. That ISN'T self-defense.

a moz drill is a standard fare. Ie person is beating you with a pipe, you place 2 center mass they keep it up, then you put one or more in their head. Unless they were zip tied in custody there is no execution.


no matter what you want to see happen.

Please explain, since I have no idea what you're talking about. I also don't know what "zip tied in custody" is supposed to mean.

Stating something confidently does not make it true, Pavulon.

since the military does not generally use pistols I dont know how common it is in that community these days. It was not instructed to me on the M9 in the Army in the 90's.

The process is to fire two shots to stop center mass and if a person proceeds (pistols are not really all that effective) fire a shot into the head.

Zip ties are plastic ties used as handcuffs. They are light weight and disposable.

What the fuck is this?

They've trained you to shoot unarmed people in the head and you think its okay because they've trained you?

"Standard fare"?

What is this bullshit?

Seriously, what is this bullshit?

Are you telling me that you BUY this bullshit?

doesn't take a structural engineer or a md.

And failing mightily.

This is *not* the first time you've made me spew boiling hot coffee through my nostrils. Note to self: Swallow coffee before clicking on Forkboy's posts. :spank:

And, before I forget:

:yourock:

so you have dead guys on video tape gearing up with pipes and gas masks. So next time you back a horse do you research. They wanted a got and they got one.

Unless the guys was in custody he was not "murdered" or "executed" no matter how much it will fit your agenda.

It's like that line at the end of It's a Wonderful Life. "Every time a Jew dies, Likud's poll numbers rise!"

the least bit of sense. It was you white whale? Do you research? Unless the guys was in custody he was not murdered? Are you a child and English is your second language? The kids I teach in ESL can write more legibly than you do!

...you've lost it.

it was designed to provoke a reaction and you guys and you sure are reacting.

"You people", "agenda"....going to tell me about Roswell next?

peace activists. He might be failing, as he has been since this whole thing started, but at least he keeps trying, lol.

Ship flagged in Turkey. Inspected by Turkish customs. Publicly announced cargo. International waters. The ship under international law is Turkish sovereign territory. The people on there are nationals of many countries. They are all civilians. They are all unarmed. (The presence of plastic deck chairs and iron poles doesn't count).

When the armed invaders drop in (apparently shooting as they come according to many of the passengers) the passengers have a right of self-defense.

If the passengers repurpose iron poles as weapons with which to smash the invading attackers, which is ill-advised, the passengers are nevertheless within their self-defense rights.

The attackers cannot claim self-defense after they gun down the civilians they assaulted, any more than a robber may legally shoot a house resident for hitting him over the head with a vase.

I'm sure you'd feel the same way about robbers in your house.

see I cant (or am ill advised) fire on the police serving a search warrant (even if they have the wrong house). Israel has a declared blockade, they can enforce it. If turkey wants to join a war on the side of gaza, they sure can. Also ill advised.

You just going to hope they are police as they fire at you? Not hardly. The Israelis murdered some civilians trying to keep from getting killed by protecting themselves. All the analogies in the world from you won't change that fact. It is ill advised to think like you do if you want to live for long...imo.

it is ill advised to beat guys with pistols with pipes and not expect to get shot.

try again.

him with his own weapon. Hey did you hear they killed everyone on the other 5 boats too, oh shit, they didn't. Only the guys with pipes and a grudge had problems.

Mowing down unarmed civilians appeals to you I guess.

guys are cold on tape gearing up with pipes and gas masks, on tape smashing guys with pipes, and on tape getting shot.

Clear cut. If it weren't "zionists" there would be no drama.

Speaking of bullshit...

the closed circuit cameras showed them getting ready with (peaceful) pipes and gas masks. And no not particulate masks, masks made to stop CS gas.

Post you own fucking video or debunk the video shown by every national news outlet in the world.

Try harder next time.

you going to post up a demonstration of how peaceful a being hit with one is?

and demanding the crew let you seize their ship, contrary to international law, in enforcement of an illegal blockade? Real peaceful there, too.

Of course, we're basing all this on the one minute of footage the IDF has released. Would you like to see the rest of that video, Pavulon? I imagine that if you really think it's several minutes of the poor defenseless Israeli kittens getting stomped on by the evil dirty terrorist hooknosed camelfuckers, a full disclosure would only be in your favor. Similarly I imagine that the IDF is giving only the segment of video that meshes with the message, and leaving out some very vital and telling evidence.

I guess neither of us will know, will we? Since the only source of info is coming fro mth IDF, which, even as faithful and praising as you are, you have to admit has a vested interest in the case.

Pipes against guns. Jesus fuck...

these show knives, you know what you use to stab a person to death, they show pipes, and men held in custody.

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2

do home invasions of law-abiding people, unarmed people, especially when those people are not even in their own country?

First they would have to contact whatever nation or nations whose home they wanted to invade. In this case, being it was the high seas, they would need permission from the entire world.

Next, they would have to show very credible evidence of criminality and third, and most importantly, they would never get permission to go into that home with guns blazing. Most other civilized countries do not allow their law enforcement officers to shoot suspects, nor do they believe in the death penalty.

Again, you fail, miserably.

the IDF is not the police!

and can be boarded.

Don't want to be boarded don't try to run blockade

Blockades in international waters are legal if the destination is the target of the blockade.

A surprise attack on a ship flagged in Turkey, in international waters and therefore Turkish territory, by armed commandos of a state, resulting in the killings of unarmed civilians, is not only murder but an act of war.

Under Article 5 of the NATO Treaty Israel committed an act of war against the United States.

The Hasbara is strong only in the United States. Nowhwere else in the world do people believe the bullshit.

The United States will be faced with the choice of keeping NATO intact or maintaining its support for the Israeli rogue state.

and gas masks donned. The US is NATO. The boarding is legal and had the "peace activists" not reacted with lethal force (like the other ships where no one was injured) they would be alive today.

No one has invoked the NATO treaty, as it does not even come close to being applicable here.

Israel doesn't get to define international law.

The starvation blockade of Gaza is not legal.

The boarding was not legal.

A sovereign nation's military attacking another country's civilian ship in international waters is an act of war. Not merely piracy but war.

The supposed prior announcement of the crime is not a mitigating factor.

In statecraft reasons are often found not to call things by their names. Nevertheless, this was an act of war against a NATO member. This matter is not over and Turkey may yet decide to demand NATO action.

Odds are that they will have such occasion again. Sad but true, when dealing with the Israeli rogue state.

The dead whom you mock and who tried to end Israel's starvation of a million and a half people locked inside a cage are 1000 times braver (if ill-advised or reckless) than you, me, or the heavily armed soldiers who followed illegal orders in invading that ship and murdering them.

The pleasure you take in the use of lethal force by a strong group you happen to identify with is obvious and repulsive, but all too common in our degraded culture.

If this had been Iranian commandos raiding an American ship in Iranian waters that was actually smuggling arms to MEK terrorists, I doubt you'd be so smug and satisfied and contemptuous of the dead.

In this case, you identify with the killers so it's fine.

.

The boarding is legal under Maritime law. The blockade is legal under international laws of war. Boarding a vessel is not an act of war, the USCG boards beyond 200NM of the US.

The Iranians boarded and held british soldiers, and because the soldiers did not open fire on the iranians, everyone lived.

Video tape clearly SHOWS the following.

1) Israel broadcasting a warning.
2) "peace activists" arming themselves with metal pipes and donning gas masks (like the one the Army issued me) BEFORE they were boarded.
3) Guys being attacked coming off a zip line while not bearing arms.
4) Lethal force attack with pipes. IE if you hit a police officer or an armed person with a pipe they can shoot you 4 times in the face legally
5) Lethal response with PISTOLS. No use of fragmentation grenades, or suppressing fire from automatic weapons or heavy weapons (the USCG or Navy would have fired with door mounted 240golf, M2 50 cal, or 20mm cannon)
6) IMPORTANT other boats that did not use violence being towed in with no injury or death.

What part of this is unclear?

the evidence and the eyewitnesses make liars out of them.

Israel acted no differently than pirates illegally boarding that ship in international waters and the depths to which you will excuse this shit is absolutely disgusting.

Video has no agenda, no emotion, and it CLEARLY shows the things i listed in a format that does no suggest edit for content.

Goodjob!

i mean it is not new. It is crystal clear. How bout this I will wire you $200 cash to let a high school kid swing a 3 foot pipe at your head. Tape it on you Iphone. If you live, you can get a nice dinner. You wont be able to eat it because you face will be all broken.

them to be good and just wait to get mowed down by bullets? You live in a strange world.

for a test go get one and start swinging it at your local police department. You will die in less than 15 seconds. You guys live on a different planet.

Swinging pipes at people will not get you shot.

after he is unconscious from the first blow. They will kill you with gunfire.

something to help the people of Gaza once the REAL video that was smuggled out in someone's underwear is released, right? The marauding Israeli pirates stole all the cameras, cell phone, and video equipment on the ship in the hope that nobody would see what they actually DID, but someone smuggled memory card in their underwear and the REAL video is supposed to be released tomorrow. Since VIDEO IS THE ULTIMATE WITNESS, we'll all be waiting for your humble apology when the real video is released.

nonsense, which the whole world has dismissed for what it is, as if you are programmed and completely immune to any kind of reason.

If you are human, then stop being silly. Everyone knows what happened, the world is a lot more sophisticated now about propaganda than it used to be.

Israel killed innocent, unarmed civilians in International Waters where they have no authority. If they had followed the law, no one would have needed to try to stop their illegal attack on the ship. That is what happened.

Now you can return to your robotic repetition of the propaganda that no one believes.

Only when it's Israel would our government say something so obviously asinine with a straight face and expect us to buy this shit.

It's self-defense.

A legitimate proactive defense of their legal-illegal blockade of the occupied-unoccupied Gaza territory-nonstatethingie.

Anywhere and anything an IDF soldier does, it's self defense. Anyone who thinks otherwise wants to exterminate the Jews, which was the only purpose of the terrorist civilian mercenaries heavily armed without arms on the humanitarian-aid warship.

Laughed out loud... and that laughter got stuck in my craw.

murder. And the number of people here who 'toe the line' are sick, I doubt they have a progressive bone in their body.

Unless you like dictatorships.

Just sayin.

I voted for President Obama ;)

Once again, Joe shows he has no core values.

We don't need a vice president who just parrots hasbara.

he is a corporate shill IMO.

Blame the system, but you did.

Interview confirms my decision. Facts:

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11035

and just when he'd been growing on me. Pardon me while I :puke:

Just aim carefully, that's all I ask.

The upcoming jobs report...Oops.

And this astonishingly tone deaf and impolitic statement.

i guess the murder of an American citizen...an American kid really...is no big deal. Thanks for clarifying Mr. VP, we appreciate it:sarcasm:

Defending terrorists? :wtf:

How can he support murderous terrorists like that?

It goes without saying that such an "investigation" will just issue the verdict that Bibi orders it to. Muslim lives don't matter to that state.

"The Muslims" can hate jews all they want. it still doesn't made the blockade legal, nor does it make Israel's act of piracy and murder legal or acceptable.

"But he said something mean" stopped being an excuse in kindergarten. Grow the fuck up.

juvenile use of four letter words.

You want a private conversation, take it to private messages.

My cussing doesn't get people killed. So again. Grow the fuck up.

Feel good?

Learn something, watch the interview.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11035

Sorry, Elleng, you're just not good at cussing :)

I've learned plenty. What I see from that interview is that Joe Biden says really stupid shit from time to time. I already knew this, so it's not like I'm learning anything new here.

Well, I did learn that you and emilyg will broadly attribute an opinion to over a billion people in order to justify the killing of some of those people, regardless of whether the opinion you're attributing is true or not.

So there's that. You're bigots. Happily, you're bigots of a stripe that DU readily embraces. You two should start talking about "The Jews" or "The Blacks" or "The Gays" like you talk about "The Muslims," let's see how long your happy asses stick around.

I know I'm not good at 'cussing,' never do it except to mock. Unfortunately there's a huge amount of it at DU.

I don't know anything about emilyg, I attribute nothing to anyone, and don't justify anyone killing anyone. 'The Jews' is me, 'the Muslims' is my best friend.

Yr not sticking up for that Emilyg and the nasty stereotype she made about Muslims and then tried to deflect from by going on about how people shouldn't 'cuss' here? She pulled that 'don't cuss at DU' stunt on me when I picked her up on her accusation that Muslims weren't real Americans a few weeks ago.

Thanks for the link. I'll watch it after dinner...

or heard of her, until today!

I don't like the 'cussing' here, rarely do it, and my best friend is an American Muslim!

another posrwe said all Jews want Muslims dead.

Impression #1: Why do most US politicians look like used car salesmen?

Impression #2: If that interview could be Reader Digested into a paragraph, it'd go: Joe Biden: Blah blah blah blahdey blah BP blah blah blah economy blah blah blah blue chip blah blah blah creating jobs blahdeyblah blah back to BP blah blah recovery act blah blah blah boring bloody blah (at the 20th minute mark Violet wonders to herself whether she'll fall asleep out of sheer boredom if she doesn't watch Dr Who at the same time boring Joe is blahing away) blah blah Iraq then some ignorant and simple minded blah about the flotilla mixed with some guff about how innocent and patient Israel is.

To summarise, it was not very impressive. Plus his tie was very ugly and I found his accent quite irritating. The guy who interviewed him was totally empty and lacked any presence whatsoever. I'm off now to watch the interview with the leader of Hamas. Hopefully he'll spice things up with zany and out there statements that won't leave me wondering why I didn't just watch a televised chess tournament instead....

In this country, instead of "blah blah blah" we now say "Yadda Yadda Yadda".

Just for future reference.

Here's the interview.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11035

What is it with the nasty and untrue generalisations of Muslims you insist on stinking up this forum with?

Here's a fact for you - Most Muslims give as much of a shit about Jewish lives as they do about any other lives. How offensive of you to try to stereotype Muslims the way you just did. And as I recall, this isn't the first time you've tried to make negative generalisations about Muslims, as I saw you only recently trying to make out that Muslims weren't real Americans.....

It's time the world admits that "Israel" has nothing to do with "Jewishness" or being "Jewish" anymore. Neither that tradition nor those people historically condoned what this rogue state does.

See, what you're doing there is replacing the significance of these deaths of the with a new narrative about how it's really all the nasty Muslim's fault.

It's totally naked and the weird thing is you people genuinely think we can't see through it.

Sweeping generalizations about Jews suck. So do ones about Muslims. How is yours better? It isn't.

Disappointing to see you mirror such a right wing, binary mindset based on ignorance and hate.

condeming both. The post I replied to made me so mad - i spouted off.

But that's ISRAELIS, not every Jew on the planet.

But you can't assume that the overwhelming majority of Muslims despise Jews for BEING Jews.

If they did, they'd be killing them all over the world.

several unconstitutional 'anti-crime' acts which were limited by the Supreme Court.
The same Joe Biden, author of the (criminal )Iraq War Resolution.
The same Joe Biden, who sponsored the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005?

That Joe Biden?!?
:puke:

Great guy. Used to claim he was a Democrat.

"he used to pretend to be a human being"?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact-vp

"Contact the Vice President

Vice President Joe Biden is committed to creating the most open and accessible administration in American history. To send questions, comments, concerns, or well-wishes to the Vice President or Dr. Jill Biden, please use the form below ..."

Oh wait, where is the outrage after North Korean sank a South Korean Ship?

By the way... I am just going to say this once. The standards applied to Israel, right wrong, or not, are not the same applied to anybody else, and that includes HAMAS... who in the eyes of some could never evah do no wrong.

I am also going to say this once and back away from these threads, because nobody wants to listen... a nation state has the right to defend itself under article 51 of the UN Charter, and this had a clear exclusion zone et al. That said, this looks terrible, but see what I said about North Korea and double standards.

Oh and of course nobody is pointing out the EGYPTIAN participation in this... it is like the three monkeys, see no evil , hear no evil and speak no evil.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B001O04BRS/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=284507&s=kitchen

Oh and finally... as much as this sucks, no matter who does the investigation, regardless of the findings, it will not satisfy some folks until Israel disappears, as this is seen as the "solution" to the ME problem by some... since we all know the world is truly black and white.

:sarcasm:

that said, no Israel is no saint, and it can and does terrible things, but I am not willing to jump to conclusions when it involves International law, even when tragically people DO GET KILLED. I will wait for a close review, thank you... having been involved in a few of these, I know first impressions usually are not all that are cracked to be.

Now better hide this... nobody wins these.

There's a huge difference between supporting Hamas and opposing collective punishment of the people of Gaza. Every decent human being on the planet knows that the second is totally wrong and that the civilian population of Gaza has no control over what Hamas does. BTW, if you were to say that they did, you'd be setting up an argument that could be used to defend the Hamas rocket attacks: after all, they might well stop if the Israeli voters elected a different government.

See the dangerous ground that puts you on?

You put a lot of thought into your responses, and I respect you for that. But please, face reality: the IDF jumped the shark on this and so did Bibi and Co. The whole mindset that led to the Siege and the West Bank Occupation has to be abandoned if Israel is to survive.

the whole mindset that is leading to this is a country under constant existential threat... and sadly it is not perceived... and yes I do hate what is happening to the population and it should not, but again I will wait for a review thank you.

But what you are seeing is a CLASSIC national security mindset. And quite brutally honest, I am not shocked or surprised this is happening with Bibi... he has a huge chip on his shoulder called Entebe, his brother was killed there.

And I will wait for the review. Sorry, first impressions are usually wrong.

That said, legal or not, this is a STRATEGIC MISTAKE, but see Israel? That fear now fear all the time? We are moving in that direction in this country... think about that.

And on a personal note, if Israel gets to the point that it is about to disappear, it will the take the neighbors with her. And she has the capacity to do that.

And is a paranoia-based security mindset doing Israel more good or more harm?

Also, I get it that Bibi bears a grudge about Entebbe(his brother was one of the Israeli commandos who died in the raid to free the passengers), but does that really justify bearing a grudge against everybody in Palestine? Entebbe was THIRTY-THREE FREAKING YEARS AGO!
three-fourths of the current West Bank and Gaza populations weren't even born then. Bibi is insane to hold not only Palestinians, but Israelis hostage to his rage about the past. Btw, that paragraph is directed towards Bibi and Co, not you, so please don't take it personally.

And at some point, the Israeli government has got to admit that the Palestinians and the other Arab countries are NOT the successors in antisemitic evil to Caesar, the Inquisition, the Tsars and Hitler. The Holocaust was a European crime. No Arab-majority country ever did anything remotely like that to its Jewish population.

Americans are mostly unaware because we have no history... or rather chose to forget it.

There are people in the Balkans who still hold a grudge over a relative who was killed over 500 years ago at a battle that you and I have no clue ever happened over a bridge on oh Bosnia for example.

The ME, some grudges in Iraq, for example, between families have gone on for over ten generations.

The old saying that the sins of the fathers become those of the sons for seven generations is not just a saying.

This is a mindset that is alien to Americans... truly alien.

I met a Maya in Tijuana, a Maya Elder. He was not born when the wars in the South of Mexico ended, the Caste Wars. His son, who certainly was not born either, got the bullet that killed his grand father at a battle with the Mexican Army... as a reminder of that battle and that injustice.

I can't say I get it, but that is what you are dealing with.

And it ain't gonna change any time soon. Israel, as much as it is a "western Democracy" is a creature of the Middle East too, where the sins of the fathers will pursue the sons for seven generations... and this is something that most Americans cannot even conceive off.

Is it justified? No... is this creating more enemies on ALL sides? See what I said about seven generations. And that is why I don't hold much hope that we will have real peace (as much as you can in that region of the world) until something really dramatic occurs that forces leaders to put their mutual grudges on hold... in other words, it has to be an existential crisis for all involved... as in Mutually Assured Destruction, I fear. Short of that... well then...

You mean the very real posibility of war in Korea again, with the US giving the south full backing and support? That outrage? yeah. Read the news, it helps cure ignorance (in most cases; FOX being an exception)

You may want to look up the legal matters of a naval blockade. Under no argument is the Israeli blockade of Gaza legal. Second, ships carrying humanitarian aid cannot be seized or harmed by either side.

As for Egypt; Egypt is under massive pressure from the US. You see, the Egyptian economy is almost 100% dependent on US support, and the military and government of Egypt both require regular infusions form America. After Israel, Egypt receives the most American aid in the region. So if America tells Egypt to support Israel, then Egypt is going to support Israel. It's also worth mentioning that a few days ago, Egypt opened the Gaza border, so, I think the folks trying to deflect Israel's criminality onto an Arab back are going to need to start looking elsewhere.

what type of aircraft is used by the jordanian and saudi air forces?

Do you know how much money we give Egypt per year? You are aware egypt is not a "zionist" state?

Egypt has been the usual No. 2 recipient of aid since the 1970s after the Camp David accords. In other words, Egypt is paid off in exchange for being Israel's ally, which is why it participates in the Gaza blockade.

Would Egypt get the aid otherwise? What difference does it make? The question here is whether Israel (or Egypt) should get military aid at all.

(I don't throw around the term "Zionist," by the way, so don't attribute it to me.)

The United States should not be in the military aid business, and obviously no aid should go to aggressors and human rights violators - like Colombia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and, of course, Israel.

I don't know where you and the hasbara crew keep getting the idea that showing that some greater atrocity is occurring elsewhere, or that other states who do bad things also get aid, is going to justify Israel's privilege of getting US aid for what it does.

It is not Israel's divine right to be subsidized by the US. "Other countries commit even more murders" is not an argument for aid to Israel.

and gets far more attention than say the 6 million dead in the congo. Until there is a two state solution in place there will be a war, and people will die. Pretty much the same since 46.

The shot guys who attacked them, they did not fire a torpedo or guided missile at the boat.

Covertly, yes, which should be the topic in a different thread.

Overtly, no. The factions are local, without official support.

Is the US government giving $3 billion a year to a side in the Congo? No.

Right and wrong still apply, regardless of the numbers. By your logic, everything other than the Congo war is a pet issue. A mass murder in a mall, very few people killed really, that's a "pet issue." Let's send the gunman $3 million. Your attitude is, Israel's crimes are far away from me, so it's all good.

You are trivializing the suffering and loss of millions of people caused largely by your country's foreign policy.

And Israel, rogue state that would attack civilian ships in international waters, is also the possessor of (depending on the estimate) a minimum of 60 to as many as 400 nuclear weapons.

As Tony Blair said, "Do we have to wait for the mushroom cloud?" Except he was lying - there were no WMDs in Iraq, and the US and UK had overseen the complete dismantling of WMD programs since the 1991 Gulf war.

But there are WMDs in Israel, non-signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation pact. A clear and present danger, and you think it's a "pet issue" to say that they should not be getting our money.

'So what's the big deal here? What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza?'


The Isreal position is that they can dictate the terms of extance for people many other peoples, without the inclusion of the ideas of the peoples in those areas, and possibly only for their benifit.

It is about claims of power and control.

even though State, the Pres, and the policy makers world wide back what he is saying.

cognitive dissonance at its finest.

And it has certain rules and regulations that both nations are famous for violating and ignoring as suits them.

it has no bearing on us policy and no real impact on us interest. nothing but a pain in the ass for people who really form us policy. Now the pakistani indian conflict is far more relevant.

It makes a billion or so Muslims think that the US might just be engaged in a war against them, particularly when you combine it with Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan/Pakistan.

And it is an unfortunate fact that Muslims happen to be sitting on top of a great deal of our light sweet, easily refined crude oil, the oil we need to power our penis enhancing SUVs..

without our cash for dead dinos they would be killing each other by the millions. like in congo, and no one would care. like the congo.

All great reasons to start building reactors like gangbusters.

They are worthless to US policy without oil. both sides.

In fact they have very few natural resources..

Israel is about the same size as Massachusetts, which is the sixth smallest state in the USA.

And you can't run an SUV on a nuclear reactor.

Nukes are highly politically charged here in the USA, very damn few people want them in their back yard and *nobody* wants the waste from other people's reactors in their back yard.

One more thing, much of the Muslim world is considerably more screwed up than it would be without the long term meddling of the Western powers.. Iran for instance hates the US to a big extent due to the CIA overthrowing the democratically elected secular Mossadegh government in 1953 for... OIL..

not for some shit 2 generations ago. I have one in my back yard, and get cheap power and pull jobs from socal where the lights dont stay on.

None of them are relevant to us policy.

And the installation of the Shah, whose SAVAK secret police were among the most brutal and feared in the world, which led to the 1979 revolution and the Iranian hostage crisis..

Americans don't remember history but plenty of other peoples around the world hold grudges for centuries.. The Shia and Sunni grudge match started in the 7th century and is still a source of much violence.. 1953 is to Iranians like last week is to Americans.

Even in America though some people hold grudges for a long time, I live in a part of the country where the flag of a force that was defeated in 1865 is still flown all over the place and a lot of people still harbor a grudge over losing that conflict.

Will your neighbors welcome nuclear waste from all over the country with open arms?

these guys just wallow in shit. Their government is obviously oppressive.

Bar absolutely none..

I grew up in the deep south during Jim Crow, if you think southerners "moved on" you don't know what you're talking about.

It's all a matter of perspective, innit?

There are plenty of Russians who would like to go back to the Soviet era, I suspect that's true in Eastern Germany too..

the system is rigged to incarcerate poor people. Blacks and broke ignorant whites as well.

Nothing to worry about then, it's only poor people and people with an excess of melanin in their skin, not *real* 'Murkins.

The system is rigged all over the damn world, not just here, that's what I don't think you quite grok.

and could be compared with american blacks after the civil war. Their longterm future is not set. A two state solution with people who aren't sworn to kill each other would be a great start.

I know because I grew up with Jim Crow, my parents were immigrants from Europe to the American South in the late 40's, they were utterly shocked by what they moved into, despite doing a lot of research into their new home before they emigrated they had no clue as to the social situation here.

A solution in which one side does not have all the power and does not want to steal all the land of the other side would be an even better start.

Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan are the products of US foreign policy.
Lebanon is a result of Israel's foreign policy.
Egypt and Israel / Palestine is a result of british foreign policy.
Jordan and Syria are both okay, as far as resource-poor nations go.

Yemen... Well, okay, there's Yemen, I guess. and you never hear much about Oman, for that matter.

Our cash for dead dinos has been the spurring cause of much of the carnage in the region. it's what brought the overthrow of the iranian government in the 50's, it's what empowered the Saud tribe, it's why we backed Iraq both in its attack on Iran and later, in its initial attack on Kuwait.

the british ran the coup in iran and I could list a litany of shithole states like those that oppress their people. I feel sorry for those who have to live there. Iran used to have a progressive culture, now it is a theocratic prison.

Remember "East Germany" looks like those people moved on and improved their lot. Iran is fucked up because of their government, not because of 1953.

The GHWB white house greenlighted Iraq's attack on Kuwait. it wasn't until Saddam started moving on Saudi Arabia that we became opposed.

And Iran's truthfully not that fucked up. It's hardly progressive, but the same could be said for the apartheid militarist racist state you're going to bat for.

documents released under foia, article by a real news paper (not commondreams etc) anything to back that up?

it was tacit permission given by the US ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie. In a meeting with Saddam and Tariq Aziz, she declared that the Iraq-Kuwait border dispute is not an American interest and that the US has no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts. This is after Saddam expressed his frustration at being unable to control the whole of the Shatt-al-Arab.

The paper was declassified in 1998, and a scan is online at the Margaret Thacher library: http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/0DFD0DDB2BA34EF59F2570CE7EEE03C8.pdf

Section 30, marked with pen, illustrates this. The ambassador does say initially that the US is worried about Iraqi troop buildup in the south, but after Saddam's assurances that every diplomatic outlet has been tried, he is informed that the US "took no position on these Arab affairs"

Even if you don't want to see it as us saying "Go ahead" it's definitely "meh, we don't give a rat's ass"

it clearly states that the USG would not support a war and would protect its friends. It actually makes my point.

The US will not support a war, but nor will it stand in the way. The document states that Kuwait is of no concern to the US. On the other hand, Iraq is our "friend" (this was from the time we were giving Saddam the information and materiel he needed to massacre well over a million Iranians). The latter statement, that the US has no opinion in Arab-Arab conflicts, is stated after the reluctance regarding war, after Saddam's assurances that all else had been tried.

Do a search, please. Every source you find will confirm that yes, we basically said to Saddam, "do whatever it is you're going to do."

granted, at the time, the Iraq-Iran war was still going hotly, and I imagine that if Saddam HAD invaded Kuwait then, with a statement that he needed to do so to save it from the Iranians, the US would have jumped on board after a little hemming and hawing. There's nothing the United States loves more than a bunch of dead Iranians, after all.

it is rambling, and says lots. It DOES not support the posters claim.

The absolute majority (57%) of people living in the former East Germany prefer the old system.

"Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism"

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,634122,00.html

I am sure they can arrange travel.

The GDR was unique.
Telling disillusioned former GDR citizens to move to North Korea is absurd.

The statement "East Germany -those people moved on and improved their lot" is not supported by the facts.

The majority wants the old system back. They did not "move on".

Their lot is not much improved either. Low wages, crime, lost pensions, lost lifetime savings, hooliganism, graffiti, unaffordable housing and insecurity is what they got.
None of these things existed in the GDR.

You did not defend your assertion that the former East Germans moved on and improved their lot.
When presented with a poll revealing that 57% want the GDR back your only suggestion is that millions of people, with deep roots in their native land, move to North Korea.
Not very convincing.

The united States has vested interests in the middle east, and will continue to have them, so long as we have an oil-based economy. The Israel / Palestine conflict is a gigantic thorn in the foot for dealing in the region.

The Pakistan and India conflict actually has no bearing on US interests. It's also not much of a conflict, now that they have both nukes, as odd as that seems.

It is in the United States' strategic interests to see the conflict between Israel and the palestinians resolved. Unfortunately it's in the interest of US politicians to cater to a bunch of backwater dipshits who think the bible is a guide to foreign policy. And so we seem unwilling to do anything that would lessen the problem, and instead focus on creating more problems that temporarily lessen the pressure.

the palestinians are convenient to the powerful states as a puppet to use when they benefit from it. Everyone in the region is run by their mythology. Pakistan and India are MASSIVE emerging markets, most of the ME is impoverished and has no ECONOMIC value.

Seriously Paulvon, I know that to some - fuck it, all of Israel's supporters, the Arabs are just a bunch of evil, faceless, hooknosed bomb-throwing moon-worshipping thugs, and no consideration or thought at all is given regarding the nations involved.

But that racist shit doesn't fly in reality.

See, Egypt is deep in debt to the United States. its government is basically a US proxy, propped up by our help. The military of Egypt depends on US blood transfusions to live. And all this aid from the US is conditional on Egypt toeing Israel's line. Egypt balks, the US walks. So when Israel says "We want to blockade Gaza" and the US looks to Egypt and says "You better help Israel blockade Gaza" what's Egypt going to do?

So while it's handy for you to ignore reality so you can try to place the burden all on an Arab's back, that's not actually the reality of the situation.

You're forgetting the oil again, by the way. You know, the blackish-brown oozy stuff that makes Dubai look like Disneyworld on acid?

How's your own altar there, kiddo?

again they are both irrelevant to us long term interests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzGiSpXmnQ0

edit to add them getting ready to attack..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU

Perhaps you're conflating me with other posters who also think you're a chowderhead. :shrug:

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is one of the primary causes of ill will between the West and the Muslim world. That makes it far more significant than the number of people directly involved might imply.

kicked them out. They are convenient on paper.

It's a really dim thing to say.

:puke:

No surprise then that he doesn't care much about the disaster in the Gulf either.

He's just towing the party line, and I bet it sticks in his craw.

"What's the big deal?" How about at least nine murdered peace activists? How about an infuriated Muslim world? How about the now lost "new" peace policies in the Middle East? How about common human decency regarding the Palestinians being deprived of living decently by our "ally"?

All hail the Uniparty.

Biden thought it was a great idea to let credit card companies grab our houses after they dupe us into debt they knew we couldn't afford.

Republican wet dream.

Many of us here saw the interview, and Guardian is dramatically misstating.

DON'T BE FOOLED, and recognize that VP Biden is one of our best diplomats.

Watch the interview HERE:

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11035

A 19 year old American was killed, but Israel had every right to kill the young humanitarian activists.

I bet you you wont pay a stranger to take a full swing at your head with a 3 foot long half inch steel pipe. If you do I know a great reconstructive surgeon. She makes tasty hummus too.

chest. Plus, were is your evidence that Furkan Dogan was yielding a pipe and not acting in self-defense?

You have no evidence. In fact, the guns they confiscated from the Israel soldiers were thrown into the sea, and not used against them. Why didn't these "violent" humanitarians NOT use guns on Israel?

Why is Israel's AG letting them all them released? They have no evidence and know that they are were wrong to kill an American and other humanitarian activists.

However, Israel Shills and Faux Newshead believe that these people deserved it were violent terrorists. Take your Rupert Murdock talking points elsewhere.

if you are firing a pistol you are completely fucked. Barney fife uses pistols, if you are firing one in combat you are probably getting ready to leave this earth.

Militaries use rifles to kill people, not secondary weapons.

Keep on making things up. The Faux News spin is strong with you.

the more fact that comes out the more the official "peace activists" claim breaks. The tape of them getting ready with steel pipe covers that well.

NOT to defend themselves...right, anyone who believes the Israelis is a total idiot.

take a full swing at your head with a 3 foot 1/2 inch diameter pipe. Post video up and I will mail you (or a hamas fronted charity of your choice) a prepaid visa. You will need it to pay you deductible for reconstructive surgery , or for flowers for your casket.

with whatever you come up with and it will still be a lie. You are the only one buying it btw.

and they are saying EXACTLY the same thing on background. So that pretty much ties this up. The video was formative to cutting the shit and seeing what happened.

then anymore conversation with you is a waste of time. Enjoy the murder of people that were on a humanitarian mission, most people won't because they actually have a conscience.

only the ones who used lethal force swinging steel pipes at armed men. You are aware of that right, or in your world did the zionists kill them all...

So I guess that's okay.

were not harmed. only those who used violence.

The US State Department and president of the United States are the final authority.

Shit, why go that far up the ladder, Pavulon? Just say that the JPost op-ed page has final say and be done with it.

While we're at it we can also take the Chinese government at its word for conditions in Tibet.

just dont believe posting on the internet is going to influence the events.

no problem.

just a facemask. You can try to hold a pistol and see if you can retain it once hit.

If the bet is without a military-grade helmet, quite a lot less people will take such a bet than if you equipped them with Israeli military equipment.

That's the big deal.

His heart is generally in the right place.
But he never has "gotten it" about events in the ME. Ever.
If he doesn't "get it" now, he never will.

Do knives make a person armed. You guy have a hook stuck, to get that out you need to push the barb through, then cut it off. That happens when you swallow the bait.

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2