Howard Dean on the electoral college, Sarkozy, gun laws...Dartmouth class.

I found this a fascinating write-up from the Valley News. It sounds like he really impressed the class with his common sense.

I thought this was funny...




Former Vermont governor and presidential candidate Howard Dean spoke to a government class at Dartmouth yesterday as the Democratic National Committee chairman. (Valley News — Rob Strong)

Dean on Electoral College System: ‘Get Rid of It'



Interesting views that got support from several in Vermont as mentioned in the article.

I thought his remarks about Sarkozy were rather odd, but they were surely tactful. I know Dean had been at conferences with Segolene Royal, so I was surprised to see this statement.



Very interesting interview. Sounds like he impressed a few.

no wonder he comes in for such rough treatment from the MSM.

Third paragraph of the article you cite:

The Maryland Legislature last month approved a plan that would direct its 10 electoral votes to be cast for the winner of the national popular vote, rather than the victor in Maryland. The plan, however, would take effect only if states forming a majority of the country's 538 electoral votes followed suit.

Why would Maryland do that? Don't sound right to me....

Wow.....it's just ALL being STOLEN right before our very own eyes......

EVERYTHING that our forefathers (and mothers) fought, lived and died for.

ENOUGH!

(remember that old guy who drove his tractor up to the WH several years ago? HE was saying (in the only way he could 'enough')

....a thief can come in the night and steal everything, only if you let him

this has to be one of the dumbest ideas i've ever heard of. it's kinda like we don't give a hoot what the voters of our own state want. our electoral votes go to the guy everyone else likes.

It's a way to get rid of the Electoral College without having to go through a Constitutional Amendment procedure (which probably wouldn't work, since small states would block it lest they lose power).

Under the proposal, nothing will happen unless states making up a majority of electoral college votes all agree to require their votes be cast for the popular vote winner. At that point, it becomes simple -- the popular vote winner will automatically get enough electoral votes to win.

What this law does not do is require that Maryland electors vote for the popular vote winner if enough other states don't do the same. It's a win-win proposal.

it makes more sense to me if states split up their electoral votes by percentage of popular vote within the state. like i'm in florida with 27 electoral votes. since the state has been closely divided in recent elections, the top candidate would get 14 ev's and the second place candidate would get 13 (assuming there isn't a major third party candidate). this maryland idea says even if 100% of the voters chose candidate a, if candidate b got even a plurality of 1 vote in the whole country, he gets every one of the state's electoral votes. how is that supposed to be fair?

i say leave the electoral college alone. the founding fathers knew what they were doing.

That is, the EC vote may not necessarily reflect the popular vote. The relationship between the popular vote and the EC vote is not a 1-to-1 mathematical relationship. The closer the vote, the more likely the error reveals itself.

:hi:

So I guess someone will say bullsh** to me. I have no real opinion yet, just presenting what is happening in workarounds.

Welcome Ms. Harris.

For the weirdest comment ever. :think:

the rules are what they are. everyone knows them going in so there's no point whining over them. changing the constitution or playing games with how electoral votes are awarded, in my opinion, is a total waste of time.

insult mad by calling her "ms harris"?

Maybe you should mind your fuckin' manners.

It was too late or early last night to really try to figure it out.

:shrug:

Call me crazy..when I see someone mindlessly attacking on DU I get wild!

Keep the good work, mad! :hi:

Just mindless stuff. Thanks for getting my back.

:hi:

Texas is a close contender.

I hold the citizens of those states RESPONSIBLE for not holding their local government RESPONSIBLE for what's been corruptly 'going on'.

I suggest that 'people like you' are on the gravy train.....that's why you want to maintain the mostly 'status quo'

Since the advent of a/c 50 years ago.....wow....Florida's been a real estate GOLDMINE, hasn't it?

You're the one saying the electoral college system is perfect now, aren't you? The Maryland bill would mean a switch to the US president being elected by the majority of Americans (ie full democracy) - but only when enough states have agreed to do that. Until then, Maryland votes would count exactly as they do now. It's a very good solution.

Why the snide remark about 'people like you'? What has madfloridan said to be scorned by you?

so the gravy train reference might refer to that? Maybe this person has problems with me I don't know about. The "people like you" reference is very odd. I mean I gripe about Florida all the time.

It is very strange, just like the first post to me. Made me perk up my ears.

Thanks for noticing. :hi:

the electoral college would seem to be the only way to counter act our popular vote being hijacked.

Until we get rid of the machines and optical scans we are vulnerable to more dictatorial leaders buying their way into office.

Like it or not that is the reality the American citizen faces today.

vs. "VOTER fraud"?

There is a HUGE distinction.....which, DU'ers (and others) need to understand better.

edit: typing/grammar

election, which if Americans were granted the truth like they are granted American Idol, I feel confident there would be a massive outcry like this country has never seen before.

However, because of the massive cover up and complicity by our bought and paid for media, most Americans do not realize how they are being attacked by those in our own leadership.

Which is of course why I am being targetted and harassed on an almost daily basis.

Those of us who speak the truth are being targetted by our own tax dollars. That is in fact, the "war on terror". It is the war on all of us speaking out about the truth and what is being done by this Administration.

I posted it about it in GDP tonight.

Voting is a mess in this country.

However those in power are either being coerced, misinformed and/or blackmailed to further misinform the public to "alternative" solutions which in no way solve the problem.

Here is the solution in my most humble, however very well educated on the issue, opinion.

Take the private voting profiteers OUT of the equations.

Implement paper voting ballots, whereby they can either pencil in an "X" by their candidate AND/OR WRITE THEIR NAME OUT IN PEN.

THE MOST IMPORTANT SOLUTION TO THIS IS:

There MUST be an independent tabulation, filled by citizens coming from every single neighborhood who COUNT THESE VOTES.

It must be videoed by at least four independent sources.

In addition this could be a tremendous opportunity to bring communities and neighborhoods together - to make it a "fourth of July" gathering if you will.

Many within the rich establishment, who profit from others poverty, will unfortunately hate this and have hated this for centuries.

Little has changed in this regard, other than the fact the theft has become much more sophisticated, especically with the help of HAVA.

Transparency is the solution. Although there are politicians who give us the redundant lip service, there are paid for by the corporations and are there specifically to block this most important action.

There will be NO legitimate elections until there are public tabulations, there are NO electronic machines or "optical scanners of ANY kind" and until we count the votes ourselves under the scope of independent video screening.

in the college made up of some of the most intense partisans? The electors sure didn't seem to care very much about the problems in Ohio.

His positions are hardly far-right. 40-hr workweek? No Democrat would propose 35. Streamlining the labor laws? No Democrat would propose the impossible-to-break contracts France currently possesses. Opening france to free trade? I assume we remember NAFTA.

I admit my knowledge of Sarkozy is limited greatly. My friend said I am always apologizing for what our country does, so he apologized for speaking Sarkozy's language. It was quite a pissed off letter.

I don't want to judge, as I just don't know. Yes I remember NAFTA.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1013

Look at this!
France.
Reuters reports a supposed case of censorship: Cécilia Sarkozy, the President's wife, did not vote at all in the second turn of the elections. According to the electoral register her presence was missing.

Nothing particular. But...
According to the scoop, the Journal du Dimanche (JDD) had the news but was stopped by the main owners: the news should not be published. Indeed, they were not.

Naturally, the couterpart says otherwise: there was no pressure.

I don't know if it's true (LeMonde report is based on Rue89) but if it is, it's just what we feared and what Bayrou and Royal denounced: control over media in France is and will be impressive and conditioning.

The links are in French. I could find no other source.

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/depeches/0,14-0,39-30876231@7-37,0.html?xtor=RSS-3208
http://rue89.com/

Sweet wake up in France, isn't it?! I told you Sarko would soon give Dean chance to change his mind about him. I couldn't imagine so soon!

ciao!

Is it media control in France? I will see if I can translate that at Babel Fish, which does not do a good job.

I am worried about our country very much. There are bright spots now, but then they immediately revert to protecting Bush. At least we have now and then...better than before Iraq.

I don't think the rest of the world understands that only 5 of 6 companies control the main media here. We had to fight to get decent programming back on Public Broadcasting. They took off the only liberal voice, Bill Moyers.

I feel like we have been in the dark ages here for 6 years media wise. They have been using White House talking points since Bush got in. Most of the companies who own the media prefer the Bush style of administration.

In Italy we got 3 public channels mainly controlled by the Government and 3 big private channels that refer to a group which is indirectly owned by former Prime Minister Berlusconi (centre-right). You can imagine what was like during his government!!

Some minor groups are also present but not that popular or influent. One newspaper and some reviews also belong to Berlusconi, while Corriere Della Sera and La Repubblica incline in favour of the centre-left - but they are mostly like parties, as they create and orient opinions.

Serious problems here, too: often important news for the public are published by free-lance journalists or broadcasted in few tv programs both on public and private channels, also by free-lancers.
As to the Presidential in the States, for example, many here came to know Mr. Dean because of the DS Congress.

You know what else? TV is the most important source for information. More than the Internet.

Hostcounts – which are indicative of the activity level on the Internet – have worldly grown 12 times in 8 years and doubled in the last 3 years.
53% of the web usage is concentrated in the USA. Europe counts on 15% of the share. Many areas are growing fast, in Asia and South America.

That’s good.
But what worries me is the number of people excluded from this resource.
Outside USA, the internet activity is concentrated in 7 countries with less than 7% of the world population. The ratio of host diffusion for every 1000 persons shows Mexico, Brazil, Russia, India, China classify in the last places. With reference to the countries’ GDP the results show the same countries at the lowest rank places.

That is: some of the most populated and fast growing economies in the world have a low grade of diffusion of the Internet.

In some of them there are problems with heavy information and media political control, as in Russia and China. In these countries most people have only TV and paper media to rely on for the news. Their perception of the world and of their own country is therefore depending on the liberality of the national media (!)

Not to talk of the limitations suffered by progressive movements and associations, as to the chances to meet and share opinions and initiatives on the web.

In Italy the ratio between web usage and population is under the EU average. Here the web and the other information resources seem to go hand in hand: the constant web user reads more, buys newspapers, books, reviews and then discusses the news in the blogs and the forums.
Those who do not use the Internet don’t do such things. Consequently, the latter – a good number in Italy – depend on TV media to get information and perception of events. Not so good a source…

It’s a topic for the progressive people everywhere...The Internet and the information seem to be the less global of all global things.
ciao!

I need to read this later and take it in. Very interesting. I had heard Berlusconi owned many stations.

Going to reread and comment more later. Have some places to go.

Your posts are most interesting. More later.

Here's the link to Giancarlo Livraghi, Internet expert, one who states we should remember that the Internet is made of humanity not of machines.

The guy knows what he says. Part of his site is in english. Lots of data!
For the Internet data http://gandalf.it/data/data1.htm

Have a look here, too. Many write bestsellers about "Stupidity and power" today: he's been doing for years! Funny and passionate, at http://gandalf.it/stupid/

ciao!
:hi:

I found this and nearly wept. What caring people these Iraqi bloggers are after the horrible things we have done to them.

Read about the image curtain America is surrounded by. It is very insightful.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1319

Now I am heading out to read your links.

Thank you. I put it in my favourite, I'm going to read it in the evening as I got job to do. But I had a look. It looked both very very professional and passionate.

I published a journal here on DU so that I can update on political issues as to laicism, information, progressive movements and developments in Europe. I'll keep you informed from an european and italian point of view.

I put links to your journal in some posts regarding Dean in Italy and blogrolled your journal in mine. I hope you agree! If you don't please let me know! And give me whatever suggestions.

Thank you again,

Ciao!

Will check it out more.

:hi:

...would qualify as at worst a "moderate Democrat" by the standards currently in place in the U.S. And even Maggie herself would probably be considered "too liberal" by many of today's Publicans. :crazy:

That doesn't make Sarkozy any less of a turkey, though.

:kick:

He is campaigning to rid France of any trace of the generation of '68. In that sense, he is to the right of Bush himself and the neo-cons, who are very much products of the New Left in an indirect sense.

This surprised me, unless he was saying it to be tactful. Dean was in Europe several times the last year or so.

Our New Old Friends

Can't be sure.

That's a testament to how far the Repubs have gone and how far rightward the Dems have shifted as an organization.

:evilgrin:

Sometimes he gets digs in.

He said white and said black. He said night and said day.
He did whatever was in his ability to win, to collect votes from centrist Bayrou (32% centrist's votes were for Sarko, 37% for Royal in the second turn according to a poll), to convince a strong rightwing gay association, to get old Chirac's entourage support. According to french polls:
52% women voted for him, 46% blue collars for him, 44% people from weak social classes for him, 32% people for former green area for him, even 14% from from far left area for him...
He denounced the catholic church for its absurd position on gays but was supported by catholic votes...

He knows how to communicate, to speak, to move. And yes, he's a right wing politician, there's no doubt.
He would make a "moderate democrat" in America, says Dean?
It's tactically spoken!

Provided of course that you are acting lawfully in hunting a whale in the first place.

But then nothing surprises me anymore. :hi:

But I wouldn't place any bet on a California law.

No bets on anything, not anymore.

:o

They do this to all our candidates, to all Democrats. It is like it has been set up for years this way, with just the right people in just the right places.

I was amazed that this WV football player in the class had only one view of Dean before this, but he was very impressed by him in the classroom.



What a shame. They will continue to do it to us.

Then we come here and do the same thing to each other every day at DU.

Indeed it is, madfloridian: Dean's remarks about Sarkozy are rather odd but fit the personality of a President in pectore.
Italian government leader Romano Prodi too, after supporting Royal, said a good work will be made with Sarkozy for the Constitution of Europe - as the French President is pro-Europe. Long years of collaboration are ahead. It's politics.

Democrat at heart, Dean wants to give him a chance! Of course Sarkozy supports America. Unfortunately he supports Bush's America and many in Europe would have liked to see Segolene Royal and Francois Bayrou united in a centre-left coalition, which was not.

Let's wait and see. Dean speaks like a true responsible President, as I see!!!

Good to see you read here and post some. Yes, Dean was gracious. I guess you can tell I was one of those "Deaniacs"...:D

It was a disappointment to hear about the French election. Someone said France was looking for a daddy protective figure, instead of the nurturing mother. Maybe fear is pervasive there as it is here.

Don't be a stranger. :hi:

Hi madfloridian!
Yes, France is a missed chance. But Royal is under friendly fire now as she is accused of not renovating and modernizing the socialist party, which is true.

The european experience has been teaching during the last 15 years that left and socialism don't win if they stand alone.
Coalitions are both modern and strategic in Europe.
Social christians and liberal democrats, joined with the socialdemocratic tradition, make good progressive governments against conservatives. Mme Royal is getting aware of this.

Bayrou, the centrist, founded the Democratic Movement (DM) in France yesterday.
United, with the socialists, they can make a good coalition within June - when elections for Parliament are held.
But they must have the courage to do so.

Centre-left coalitions are in this similar to your Democratic Party in the USA: different cultures and political traditions meet and find a common ground for the challenges against the right-wing politicians.

France is conservative for the biggest part. It's the 3rd time in a row that socialists don't win election for President.
It's time to change strategy!

As to Dean remarks, well, either he was thinking of Francois Bayrou and mistook the person (!) or he just was speaking like a USA President would of a newly elected President in an allied country! ;-)

I see your point about progressives learning to unite....BUT...I think Dean might have been getting a little dig in while being tactful. There are many who set policies for our party here who could just as easily set policy for the Republicans. :-)

If we unite and become too much like the other side, we lose the sense of who we are.

Did you see the right wing attacks on Howard Dean the last two days? It is amazing how they will just make up stuff. The DNC got its lawyers on it.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1313

Don't be a stranger here.

:hi:

You're right, madfloridian.
But generally speaking in Italy and in Europe we still suffer the post-war divisions. This has opened the way to bad and strong right-wing politics that divided Europe and made it weaker and submitted to Bush.

We are not and won't ever be something like the Democratic Party in the USA. Different history. But The idea is to unite different cultures for common goals: the social christian, the liberal, the socialist soul of our society.

Of course me and my party will bring the socialdemocratic tradition and perspective, but as it always happen, you cannot win'em all!

You are right: one has to know where one comes from and where one goes, but when you're hand in hand with somebody you must take care of the different view.

As to transformer politicians in Italy we've had hundreds. The fact is: people vote for them and send them to Parliament. How can you ignore them?

As to Sarko, he will soon give Dean chance to think it over!!!!!

Now I'm going to follow the link you wrote.

ciao!

We really had not been paying much attention to what was going on in the party. Then those of us online and getting our news here knew that Iraq was not an immediate threat, but so many of our party went along with it for various reasons.

I think then at that point, many of us who are very much into working with others (I was a teacher for over 30 years..had to get along and cooperate)....just got so angry.

Many of them in our party were voting for Bush's judge appointments, knowing they would take away many rights. They did not listen when we called nor did they pay attention to our mails.

The going along with Bush was a turning point, giving him his agenda. Many of us are trying to get over the anger. Governor Dean is sort of trying to bridge the gap between those of us who felt alienated and those who alienated us with the war and the votes for Bush's agenda.

Here is something I linked to that might explain a little about what Dean is trying to do.

Moving the piggy bank....a DNC power shift to outside DC.

I think that many of us are extra sensitive to those who want to take the party to the right...mainly because of the war and the horrors there. It is hard to join hands when a large part of the party ignored us and took the country to war.

So it is righteous anger, but common sense says we must work it out.

Many of us miss the "outspoken" Howard Dean. We are practical enough to know he has to be careful and speak for all the party now...but it is hard sometimes. The congressional leaders have told him to "take his cues" from them. They don't much want him speaking out, yet many of us feel he is one of the leaders and has a right to speak.

It's a difficult situation.

...is a difficult situation. Your analysis is perfect: when a leader wants to represent the whole party and patch the holes caused by some in that Party in the recent past and re-unite the majority is sometimes compelled not to speak out.

Once you succed you can do all the reforms you think necessary. But to get power you can't go on your own way making bad enemies out of potential allies in your Party.

Something, I understand your position, hard to swallow.

It's sometimes difficult for us italian leftists moderate to accept the position of radical communists or moderate catholics on different issues. If we started to speak ourselves out our government would resign the next day. The outcome would be Mr. Berlusconi, again, for five years.

So I hope all Dean's efforts and your patience will be soon rewarded.

Ciao.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I always considered myself that way until the Iraq invasion. I won't call it a war anymore because it is an invasion and an occupation.

So you are right, it is hard to take. My brain tells to go along until Democrats win both houses strongly, but my conscience and heart keep talking to me to speak out.

It's been extra hard this week for some reason to play nice.

If you leave it up to the states you end up with states that ban guns bordering on states that don't so the whole idea of choking off access is easily defeated. Case in point: Washington D.C. is next door to Virginia so the gun ban in D.C. was sure to fail.

Feinstein et al threw away the House and Senate in 1994 over a law that merely raised prices on new magazines for civilian pistols, and required minor, mostly cosmetic changes to popular civilian rifles. That crusade also cost Gore the presidency in '00 (via TN and WV, never mind FL) and hurt Kerry badly in '04, until the DLC finally stopped pushing it after the '04 loss.

California-style gun bans will NOT fly nationally. Period. Dean recognizes that, but some others still do not. Jim Webb, Tester, Casey, Strickland are the template for the party's future on the gun issue, not Dianne Feinstein.

Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What? (written in '04, largely vindicated in '06, IMO)

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: