"Jews". Would you mind taking the time to say "Jewish People"?

Anyone beside me feel their hackles go up when a non-Jewish person throws that word around.

"Jew", "Zionist"... I dunno. My radar goes off.

The fact that they cannot separate "Jewish people" from the actions of the State of Israel says a lot about them.

"Juden"... that doesn't sound right to me either.

I always see "JOOOOZ", all dripping with paranoia. And when they say Zionist I get even more suspicious, though I'm sure many mean it innocently.

That's straightforward anti-Semitism from the New Testament. But other than that slight distinction, I pretty much agree with what you say.

I see it a lot around here on DU; though mostly directed at "The Muslims" and "The Arabs" though sometimes "The Mexicans" and, ever so rarely, "the gays"

That latter one gets pizza'd quickly, while the other three tend to make it to the Greatest page in short order. Go figure, huh?

"Illegal aliens" sounds clinical and while I understand it is now considered at the very least un-PC, to me it doesn't have the racist ring of "Illegals". There's a venom in the way these things are said - it's almost like they're spat out - that makes me cringe from the underlying prejudice - "Liberals" has the same ring coming from Teabaggers.

"THE terrorists"

Like they have qualities specific only to "terrorists" (brown skin, "funny" names).

Like our own damned government hasn't committed acts of terror against us...


:mad:

Or just calling any Muslim a terrorist?

I'm not sure how using the phrase "the Jews" is anti-semitic in and of itself.

On edit: It seems that what many on this thread have a problem with is referring to the actions of the Israeli govt as if they are the responsibility of all Jewish people everywhere. That would seem a valid complaint if that is what you meant; it wasn't clear from your post that it was.

Neither is "Colored".

If so it's news to me. I'm open to the idea but... I live in South Florida. I am surrounded by Jewish people and culture, and have never seen or heard anything to indicate that the word "Jew" is somehow offensive in and of itself.

Just as the word "colored" is not.

But it should be used with care when discussing.

The Gospel of John has some amazingly beautiful passages, plenty of grist for theological discussions and a whole heaping lot of "The Jews" did this and "The Jews" did that, not the least of which is killing Christ. It is the root of the anti-Semitism in Mel Gibson's "The Passion" as well as 2000 years of persecution at the hands of Christians who saw it as revenge for Jesus.

"The Jews" I see regularly and usually has nasty intent; "the Jew" I see less often, but it always has that intent. Less of it in my neck of the woods since the local neo-Nazi community was cleared out a few years back, but I'll still see it come up now and then in groups of activists who should bloody well know better by now.

is really trying to set them apart.

They want to say something about the Likudniks without getting painted as antisemetic.

Thanks.

IMHO

Sadly too many cant separate the two.

you can't blame Israel on that.

nt

Ever been beaten up while being told "You killed Christ"?

Ever had pennies thrown at you? Swastikas drawn on your locker?

Do you know what the blood libel is?

I am married to a jew she has a lot of issues with "x-tians" I find it sad but I dont love her or her family any less because of it.

Israel is and has been acting like thugs for a long time now and it has nothing to do with being jewish. The Jews I know are all kind giving people not at all like the state of israel.

Eactly. You made my point. Thank you. I can ask for no more.

it just has nothing to do with Judaism. Just as al Quaeda has everything to do with being Muslim, and nothing to do with Islam. or the Spanish Inquisition has everything to do with being Catholic, and nothing to do with Catholicism (or, even more apt, the Vatican's paranoia and coverups of pedophilia are totally Catholic, but have nothing to do with Catholicism) they are identity scams, based on the idea that only people within a certain community know what to do in the face of either real or perceived threats.

Jesus Fucking Christ - read the Goddamn thread title.
</sarcasm>

I reserve the right to refer to my own sub-group as "Jews".

Thank you very fucking much for giving me that permission.

It's sort of like that.

Asking others to refrain from doing the very thing that you so willingly do yourself seems like an unconvincing way to foster change in the world.

Blondes are allowed to tell blonde jokes. Irish are allowed to tell Pat and Mike jokes. No one outside. How hard is that to understand?

And, that "Be the change" quote, coming from anyone other than Gandhi himself, is the most priggish, self-righteous thing possible.

Except perhaps my reference to that Ghandi quote; it was from a prior post of mine in an old thread started by the original poster.
 

"Catholic", a 3 syllable word, sounds like people take the trouble to say something correctly.

This is hard to explain, but there is a linguistic connection between saying things fully, taking time, and it "sounding" polite.

Spitting out a one syllable word sounds, sometimes, like "Spic" or Kike.

As I said, I believe there is a relationship between taking the time to sound polite and using shorthand.

"Jew" may be the correct term, but to some of us "Jews", it sometimes sounds like it is being spit out.

Words are crude attempts at explaining what is in our heads. I wish I could do a better job.

Please try to see/feel what I am saying and not rationalize away what I am TRYING to say. Thanks in advance.

I do agree with you OP though. "Jews" and "the Jews" tends to twitch the needle on my bigot detector.

That would be a far closer analogy, would it not?
 

You are not listening, so I guess we are done.

How should I determine which Jewish persons might possibly be offended by the use of the word Jews by non-Jewish people, and which ones won't?
 

but I'll go along with it because it's your preference.

than Baptists, but still aren't considered "Christian."

LMAO!

:)

:)

I imagine X-tians is as pejorative as "the Jews". Although one or two Christians may use it, I think I may speak with an inside view that it is seen far more often than not as little more than a careless slur.

I imagine one may either predicate their actions on those of the opposition, justify their actions based on those of the opposition, or even mimic them with being aware of it.

I'm not a Christian, but I find that kind of glib slur offensive, and I know Christians often do, with good reason, as it is intended to be offensive.

I've known Christians to use it! It's merely shorthand. Nothing more.

If you didn't know, now you do.

IMHO

Sadly too many cant (Sic) separate the two."

Do you not see how inherently bigoted your post is, on its face? :shrug:

Israel is considered a jewish state and by many the jewish homeland. Somalia is not to my knowledge considered the african americans homeland.

The perception of the two are totally different, sadly in my opinion to the detriment of jewish people the world over.

But you can cry bigot at me all you want it has absolutely no effect on me whatsoever as its pretty hard to take seriously considering I married a jew and hang out in temples all the time.

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You clearly are one who can not separate the two. Unfortunately there are people on both sides of the fence that have that problem.

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Is Israel considered the Jewish-American homeland?

you seem to be a pretty confused individual. You start a thread complaining about being called a jew then immediately self identify as a jew. Which is it is it reprehensible or is it just ok for the in crowd?

To me Israel is a fucked up oppressive state. You can identify it as whatever you want to identify it as.

There are several organizations that try to turn "Israel" into "Jew" in our discourse, so that any criticism of the state becomes an attack on the people. So, is there a Somalian organization that is doing a bangup job of equating Somali with "black"?

And frankly, if our politicians gave as much attention to Africa to win the "black vote" as they do to Israel to win the "jewish vote"* then I think Africa as a whole would be a pretty nice place.

(* Yes, I'm perfectly aware that Israel is in fact not the #1 end-all-be-all issue among jewish voters. it's simply a nasty little bit of cynicism played by both parties to try to win that particular segment of the populace)

Israel is giving Israel a bad name -- not Jews.

Does Zimbabwe give all blacks a bad name?

Perhaps you are missing my point. Many do not make the distinction and blame israels actions on jews everywhere. By the same token many jews stand up for whatever israel does no matter how heinous because they see it as a jewish state that bust be protected at all cost simply because it is jewish.

I personally see the difference and despite half of my family being jewish I hold israels actions in contempt and in no way see it as a jewish action it does not reflect the lifestyles of the jews in my life whatsoever. Unfortunately way too many can not make that distinction and because of it israels actions are giving jews a bad name.

They hear israel and all the think is jews, the same as many hear muslim and all they think is terrorist.

You may not like it but it is reality.

not Israel. People who think that way are filthy anti-Semitic shitstains, and would hate regardless. Their particular sensitivities need not be considered valid.

Can be ignored because they are idiots who can be dismissed. The effects are real and have consequences no matter what label you chose to put on them.

or respect. I will point it out as the rank filth that it is, and will treat them accordingly.

Israel is acting like BushCo on steroids.

Some of them even are Israelis.

And of course there are non Jewish people supporting everything Israel does. So not all Zionists (or whatever we should call them) are Jewish.

A bad name. That's like saying black guys who mug people are giving black people a bad name. Basically it's saying that an entire group of people can be judged for the actions of some.

as reflecting a discussion of Jewish people and not specifically the government. Particularly confounding given that 25% of the population (2008 census) is NOT Jewish.

I can understand the sensitivity toward the word "Jew" being thrown around, given how it has been used in the past and have no problem NOT doing so.

"..when a non-Jewish person throws that word around."

Hee-hee-hee.

It's the secret Jewish hand-signals.

um..

nose.

:P


Seriously, Jewish men have some really postive attributes. ;)

But even more so, the sense of humor and style. Education, etc.

all of which are positive.

As the wife of a Jewish man, I was talking about something far more personal. :blush:

Some Goy have winky dinkies too.

I don't have te problem myself, but I feel for all members or all races with that particular issue.

I hope you are sensitive. It can really hurt a guy (probably).

as a non-Jewish person.

Goy
n. pl. goy·im (goim) or goys Offensive
Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew.

See, with Jewish humor, it takes a few beats for you to "get" the joke, and you have a good laugh.

Us indians, though... Our jokes take about a year to age and season properly in your head, and then you get it, and you laugh so hard you crap your pants.

That's the real story behind Monteczuma's Revenge, by the way. Cortes was having an audience with the King when he finally got the joke and, well. There you go.

What is yours btw?

With a half of Whiskey, er, I mean, Irish.

when someone says boy to mean "nigger" they say it a certain way. Just like when they say zionist to mean "filthy new york jew" or "kike". A quick scan of their tone and demeanor makes this a quick assessment for me. It jumps right off the screen.

Sure you can say boy and Zionist with no racial or discriminatory tone, but it is all in the persons delivery.

Obviously the highly offensive terms used in this post are not directed at a group or meant to be discriminatory, but to underline their use in common language.

(whether it be "Jew" or "black man/woman" or whatever) as though it was a "dirty" word? Yup, I've seen that along with the far more overt and epithet driven way that some men do so.

and some guy asked me straight out if I was a "nigra" or a "mexican" on my home at a gas station. Overt is good, that way the assholes are obvious. The folks who hide their racism are for more concerning.

Is it a Jewish state? Can non-jewish folks be part of the govt?

That it is based on jewish laws of old, etc?

Now they are a "mostly Jewish State".

just like in the UK system.

immigrate. Indeed, they do not have to be religious Jews, or even meet traditional criteria for Jewish ethnicity. E.g. people who have a Jewish grandparent on their father's side can immigrate, even if their mother is not Jewish. The criterion is basically that anyone who would have been considered as a 'Jew' by Hitler is eligible for Israeli citizenship, as the primary purpose is to provide automatic refuge.

Can a non-Jew be a member of the government? Certainly. There are a number of Arab members of the Knesset; most but not all from specifically Arab parties. There are also some Druze members from all parts of the political spectrum. Majalli Wahabi, a Kadima MK and deputy speaker, was briefly, in 2007, the first Druze (and first non-Jewish) Acting President of Israel.

Considering that non-Jews constitute at least 20 percent of the Israeli population, they are seriously under-represented in government - but they are represented.

it refers to people with specific beliefs and therefore has a very different meaning than "Jewish people"

for an ugly section of the Left.

He said I was oppressing him by denying his heritage, or something. Nevermind that he had converted to another religion 25 years before that.

Whatever. People can call themselves anything they want.

IBTL.

Jewish people. Don't know why, I prefer it. I don't like "Jew", always sounds cold to me. And I'm not Jewish.

it's a neutral, non-biased word that is accurate in describing what it means; short, sweet, and to the point.

It's only a four-letter word if you perceive it that way, like Negro.

and I grew up in a majority-Jewish area

Guess it just depends on how you're used to hearing it. Inflection of voice can change the whole character of a word.

But yes, you're right.

I grew up in both a rabidly anti-semitic area and a very Jewish area later.

But I'm not Jewish, so it was verboten to me.

Kind of like how black people use the n-word. If you're white and habitually use that word, you're gonna get a beatdown eventually, regardless of inflection.

It's kinda like Native Americans call themselves Indian.

Christians, Muslims, Jews etc. live everywhere in the world and each person has their own individual view of the world. You could speak in broad sociological terms about American Christians versus Chinese Christians I suppose. The problem may be the media constantly referring to Israel as the "Jewish State", whereas Israel is 20% Arab so using such language is in itself troublesome.

Hell, he calls his niece a J.A.P.

And, he's against the Zionist take-over of Palestine, too.

Wow! He's like a real person or something.

:eyes:

why saying "Jews" is different from saying "Catholics" or "Protestants." Can you explain, please?

Seriously, it is why I used the phrase "raise hackles". It is just a feeling.

But you should be aware that other people may use the term in complete innocence, if they haven't known a Jewish person who was bothered by the word.

It is dangerous to start attributing characteristics to a group of people.

Meet Rabbi Shlomo Barkowitz.

Oy arf!

I would have guessed Methodist.

Maybe you meant Baptist; he certainly isn't dancing, is he?

They had one episode where a dog had a "Bark Mitzvah" :rofl:

The Rabbi was human though.

What else could they be than people?

Should we not say Muslims, and instead say Muslim people? How about Sikhs (that's even one a one syllable word) - should they be Sikh people? Sikhish people? Is there a good rule to follow on this point?

perceives it. As far as people being unable to separate Jewish people from the state of Israel, that cuts both ways, just because someone says something about Israel doesn't mean they are speaking about Jewish people or all the people who live in Israel, they aren't all Jewish.

and I quote:

"Daniel, I hope that this day will always be remembered, that you will live by the word of the Torah, and that it will make you a better Jew."

He did not say "Jewish person". He said "Jew". I think, respectfully, that you filters are set a little tight. Learn to discern the situation and the intent, rather than hang on to a word.

That's why it is okay. Is that a clear explanation?

It is like other minority groups in this way. The "N-word" comes to mind.

And that point stands, no matter who says it.

Especially when Israel is such a hot button issue now.

So my suggestion that non-Jews criticizing Israel use the work "Jewish" instead of "Jew" is because it can often be indistinguishable from an Anti-Semite hiding behind the political criticism of Israel.

Rather than play word games for the lazy, I propose something radical - paying attention to the speaker.

Intent is hard enough to read in person. On the internets, it is 10,000 times harder. Now I think you are not trying very hard to hear what I am saying.

I am saying that when people critical of Isareal throw the word "Jew" around, it sounds VERY, VERY close to anti-semitism.

Yes, that is my personal opinion, but that is how it works when minorities are on the receiving end of words.

"Colored" used to be okay. Same with "Blacks" and "Negros".

I am SAYING that people should not fling around the word "Jew".

How about listening?

how put off you are by a single word? That's where the laziness comes in. Just because understanding may be difficult on a given medium, does not mean you are suddenly absolved from attempting it.

My family and a Jewish family are life friends; all us kids grew up together. They refer to themselves as Jews, I refer to them as Jews. If I sent the transcript of this conversation they would probably be laughing their asses off.

Intent is hard enough to read in person. On the internets, it is 10,000 times harder. Now I think you are not trying very hard to hear what I am saying.

I am saying that when people critical of Isareal throw the word "Jew" around, it sounds VERY, VERY close to anti-semitism.

Yes, that is my personal opinion, but that is how it works when minorities are on the receiving end of words.

"Colored" used to be okay. Same with "Blacks" and "Negros".

I am SAYING that people should not fling around the word "Jew".

How about listening?

Germans, Brits, Poles, Italians, Baptists, Arabs...

crazy man running Israel. It's no different than when bush was our President - it didn't make all Americans bad people.

I always feel like "Jewish people" is just.... patronizing? I'm not sure if that's the right word to express my feelings, but I don't feel like it's necessary. Plenty of descriptive words can be used as a pejorative depending on the tone. For instance:

Discussing someone you know at a party:
"My friend Jimmy is gay"

Walking past two men holding hands on the street:
"GAY!!!"

It doesn't mean the word is entirely inappropriate. Same with "Jew", IMHO. To wit:

Q: "Do you believe in the Trinity?"
A: "No, I'm a Jew."

As opposed to:
"That guy is such a cheap Jew"

So if people want to say "If Elena Kagan is seated, three of nine Supreme Court Justices will be Jews" just as a declarative statement without attaching any negative tone or connotation, that doesn't bother me.

Why do we have to walk on eggshells when we discuss Jews?"

How does that sound to you?

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about Israel "trying to exist" by shooting his 14 year old sister in the head as she was walking to school on day. Oh don't worry, she didn't die. But she was left practically braindead and bedridden for the rest of her life.

"Why are you curious?"

or does the one-word seem fine when it's some other group? I think you're being overly sensitive, is what I'm suggesting.

I guess from now on I'll start saying the fucking Likud assholes instead...

Whatever helps you sleep at night

So don't be too sure of yourself. Zionism is more a political philosophy than a religio/cultural one. Many Jews, back during the founding of modern Israel, staunchly rejected it saying it was not the time and not the deliverer. Oddly enough, anti-Zionist sentiment among even Israeli Jews is growing.

I always thought it was movement to support a Jewish state.

That's why I always heard and read that being Anti-Zionist is not being anti-semite.

If it's really a codeword for anti-semites, I'll never use it from here on out.

It's an actual political movement. Look it up. Many people in the "Israel can do no wrong" crowd simply dislike the term because it exposes the fundamentally racist nationalist philosophy. Were it applied to any other nation, it would be grounds for war (the Serbs tried it in Kosovo, and we bombed the hell out of them for it).

Personally, I always draw a careful line between my identification of the Jewish people and Israel. I've known more Jews than I can count in my life, and have liked every one of them. Israel, on the other hand, is a political entity. It's not a person, or a religion, it's a thing.

Italy is 97.2% Catholic, and yet we can criticize the Italian government (and even fight a World War against it) without it being taken as an attack on Catholics. Israel is 75.4% Jewish, and yet any commentary against their government is taken as an attack on the Jewish peoples themselves. Why is that?

in that way. And are pretty blatant that when they say "Zionist" they mean "the perfidious JOOOOOOOOO." I've also seen, here and other places on the left, people sliding pretty freely between antisemitism and anti-Zionism (which is what, I think, the whole thing with Helen Thomas was about). But, again, it can also just refer to the idea of having a Jewish state.

But, yes. It's used as a polite, deniable way of being antisemitic enough that my hackles raise a little when I see it.

The answer is still no.

what a silly waste of time this politically correct thread is.

wow, you sound like someone to avoid.

Does it get annoyed when Christians compare Hanukkah to Christmas? Does it have the most boring food this side of Western Ireland? Has Mel brooks portrayed it in a lightheartedly stereotypical way? What's up there?

Jewish Paranoia, eh?

Nope, no anti-semitism at DU. :eyes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8517915

Oh wait, it was you... sorry!

:rofl:

Even more when they start labeling those who disagree with their outlooks as "self-hating Jews" or "kapos"

So is reading comprehension.

My very anti-semitic grandmother says things like, "You know so-and-so, he's very cheap and he's a Jew." Or, "You know those Jews..."

Then I tell her I don't want to listen to racist stereotypes and leave.

So as a non-Jewish person, I know what you are talking about.

Thanks for taking the time to try to see other viewpoints.

It is more than many do -bound up as they may be in defensive posturing.

A person may be born of Jewish parents and not be Jewish, if that person chooses to be Hindu, or Christian, or Atheist, or Buddhist, or whatever. One chooses to be a Jew, and by being a member of that religion self identifies as a Jew, excepting children, of course, who follow their parents until old enough to choose for themselves. If one's parents became Jews, one is likely raised as a Jew. If one's parents were born Jews and became Christians, one is likely to be raised as a Christian.

There is nothing positive or negative in the label "Jew," but its usage in context is what matters. Saying "Jews historically vote more Democratic than Republican" is a simple statement of fact. Using the term "Jewish People" in its stead would be silly.

Israel is a country that has citizens called Israelis. Most Israelis are Jews, but not all Israelis are Jews. Not all Israelis support the current Israeli government. Not all Jews who are Israelis support the current Israeli government. Criticizing Israel is not criticizing Jews. Criticizing the right wingers who lead Israel is not anti semitic.

Zionists are people who believe there is a Biblical right for the children of Israel to rule certain lands defined in the Bible, and roughly approximating modern Israel. Most Zionists are Christians, not Jews. Christian Zionists far outnumber Jewish Zionists. Many who support Israel are not Zionists in any sense. They support Israel for reasons unconnected to any Biblical rationale. Unfortunately, the word "Zionist" has been used as an invective by many Arab critics of Israel, and for that part of the world has become something akin to the N word in its usage.

There are many divisions of the ideology. At it's most basic, it's a belief in the need to reconstitute a jewish nation in the biblical lands, as you described. But like most ideologies of greater antiquity than twenty minutes, It's got a lot of sub-factions.

First, and most prominent in America, are the Christian Zionists. These are wacky, wacky people. Their general take is not just that the Jewish Nation must be reconstituted... but that it must be reconstituted so Jesus can come back, use it for his landing pad and - this is in the book, though they usually skip it in the sermons - kill all the Jews. Christian zionism, like a great many Christian -isms, relies heavily on end times prophecies for its outlook. These are the crazies that probably beat the most responsibility for the whole damn situation.

Next you have the spiritual Zionists. These folks include a great many Orthodox Jews as well as, curiously enough, several jewish-based "new Age" philosophies as well as the Rastafarian religion. They either believe that the Kingdom of God will be actually delivered by god himself (a point that puts many Orthodox in opposition to the human-created state of Israel) or that Zion is in fact something internal, rather than an actual tract of land.

Then you have the political Zionists, which is a good portion of the Israeli government and generally what the people railing against Zionism are talking about. This is basically a form of nationalism that was last in vogue (and in snappy uniform!) in 1930's Germany. it's the ideology that there is one "Pure" race that has an absolute, divine claim to a section of land, to the ruling power, and authority over those who are judged "unfit" - that is, it's a completely fucking racist, dangerous ideology. Unfortunately for both Israel and its neighbors, it's this particular variation that carries the most weight in Israel (and is propped up by the wacky christian zionists who want jesus to kill lots of jews, how charming!). A minority of them support the idea of an Eratz Israel, ruling from the Nile to the Euphrates. Thankfully, these nutballs have been pretty quiet since the 60's.

I'm sure there's even more variety than this, as well as subdivisions of the subdivisions, hodgepodges, hybrids, and what have you. Point is, you can't define a 150 year-old contentious religio-political philosophy in two sentences.

Can't never get it right. But thanks for the race baiting thread.

Actually, in "jewish people" it is correct not to capitalize.

You wrote "jew".

Looks like a howard the duck, quacks like a howard the duck. It's howard the duck.

And if you browse my posts, you will likely find that I have used "american" from time to times instead of "American".

How telling...

I spent good money on the rag as a kid and now just resent the whole thing.

Context is everything. So is reading comprehension.

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One would listen more.

If a person suggests that, in a heated environment of finger pointing towards Israel, and generally increased anti-semitism, that you might consider using the word "Jew" carefully.. to take the extra few key strokes to be considerate to the fact that some Jewish people have been beaten, terrorized and killed for being Jewish, then you might try a little harder to listen rather than take such a defensive position.

Jews have a long history of being abused and, particularly in light of this OP's theme, you might have taken a second of reflection to hit that Shift button... in the spirit of understanding and consideration of others' feelings.

Ridiculing people is not a nice way to go when they just took the trouble to tell you that being called "A Jew" does not always sound very nice.

I appreciate that not everyone shares my background, but that is one of the good things about discussion boards. You can gain some insight into OTHER people's feelings and perspectives.


So, no. "jew" did not read nice in this context and I recognize that I might have erred in your case. Thank you for taking the time to set me straight if indeed you are just a non-capitalizer.

Do you take your own advice, when speaking of the "other side"?

Do you ever say "Arab" or "the Arabs" (with or without capitalization?) How about the same question, with "Muslim" or "Palestinian"? Have you ever equated all Palestinians - or even all Arabs - with organizations such as Hamas or Islamic Jihad? Do you differentiate those groups from each other? I've seen a lot of people who seem to think that Hamas and Hizbollah are one and the same, and that they speak for all Palestinians, or even people who live in Dearborn, MI.

Now, I'm not throwing accusations that you do engage in this sort of thing, but it is something I see commonly around these parts, both on relevant topics and sometimes even just out of the damn blue. It's really not like it's Jewish people getting singled out around here; and compared to what I see directed towards Arabs, Mexicans, Muslims, and even blacks in the post-election hate-a-thon, DU is really very gentle towards your concerns.

Not that they're invalid concerns, of course - "Jewish paranoia" what the hell? - I'm just curious as to whether you hold yourself as carefully as you ask others to be held, and are just as concerned about these terms and poor phrasings being applied to others with a stake in the debates.

I never liked the ring of it, for much the same reason.

As for "Muslim", I would only use the term if their religion was the issue being discussed.

As for "Palestinian", no. I do not broad brush them either.

All good and pointed questions that we should all ask ourselves though. So thank you for making me reflect. But I can honestly say that I feel okay about my use of those words.

I am a translator and I understand the power of words.

With an unfortunate addiction to foul language.

But what the fuck, it's not like Dennis Leary ever has any trouble getting his intentions across.

But yeah, i'm with you on the power of words, context, inflection, usage, the whole shebang.

You would only use the word "Muslim" if religion was the issue being discussed?

In other words, you refer to other groups in precisely the same way you're objecting to. If a person uses a word like "Jew" or "Muslim", it is as a means of discussing religious identity. That is what these words *mean*.

This is absurd.

I'll never forgive George Lucas for that. Never, ever, ever.

It is jar-Jar Binks that truly earned my eternal ire.That and Ewoks.


The man does not know how to direct.

I wonder if, somewhere on a cutting-room floor in LucasArts studios, is a segment of film that has Jar-Jar chowing down on watermelon and Gungan malt liquor. Like someone in postproduction went "Mmmmm... Naaaaah, TOO obvious."

Jar-Jar belongs with J.K Rowlings "House-elves" in the racist hall of fame.

'Cause I figured they were more based on all the fairy tales of elves mending shoes or milking cows or writing slashfic or whatever it was people did that they needed elves to help out with.

Granted, Hermoine's whole "House Elf Liberation" thing kind of grated, mostly because everyone thought she was nuts for it. I just don't see anything other than cursory parallels to any actual human group.

They all talk like Amos -N- Andy caricatures.

Kreacher didn't at all. Dobby didn't really that much either, IIRC. Winky, however did.

The real controversy with house elves is how Dobby looks like Putin...

http://www.polazzo.com/putin_and_dobby.htm

I think of them as significantly a warrior culture and cousins of the Wookies much more so than huggable teddy bears.

Shit, they were going to eat the crew even though they were well aware they were sentient. I don't think of that as exactly cuddly.

Now Binks is a horse of a different color (I'm in no mood to even discuss the duck, atm), Jar Jar is a silly fool and a discredit to his proud people neither of which have much place in a Star Wars.

It's to gain the upper hand in an argument by claiming one must be anti-semitic, to that end, make it impossible to refer to the group at all. Whatever you say shows you are anti-semitic, now no need to meet the substance of the argument.

and are now discussing whether it is anti-semitic to call a Jew a Jew instead?

There is a movie made by a Jew/jewish person who does this awesome long rant about how "jewish person" makes it sound like "Jew" is some sort of slur, and how he therefore gets pissed when people say "jewish person" instead of "Jew". I'm fine with political correctness as long as it is consistent. Once it reaches the point where any kind of descriptor, as you have noted, can be claimed to be offensive by someone, I generally check out. The rant in that movie convinced me. I now always say "Jew" and not "jewish person", regardless of complaints. I say "Turk" and not "turkish person" too.

there's something...I dunno, not right.....I say "Jewish folk" :)

True story!

a neighbor had me pick up his elderly New York Jewish parents at Love Field because he could not get off work in time....he said they'd be waiting out front at a certain time - when I asked him what they looked like, he said, oh, believe me, you'll know them when you see them. And I did. :D

And yes, it's Kosher!


http://www.shmaltz.com/HEBREW/index.html

You'll have something to complain about when society thinks it's acceptable to deride something by saying "that's so jewish".

It is a well-discussed issue in this house and it is disgusting.

I'm not sure of it if there is.

I suppose I would have thought "jews" refers to that set of people of jewish ancestry whereas I would have thought "jewish people" refers to a sociopolitical entity. Not all jews are heavily involved in jewish culture or politics. More than happy to be corrected...

The proper term for those boarding that boat would be "Israelis" in my book. I haven't seen any conflation with "all jews" or "jewish people" with the Israelis on this board but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I guess...

carelessly when describing the situation.

What started it for me was when I read a post today, an OP, that said something like:

"Why do we have to all walk on eggshells when we talk about Jews?"

In this context, it felt discriminatory, as if the word was being spat out.

Take it or leave it. It's the truth from my perspective.

I'd want that seriously unpacked...

"Don't be such a jew," or "he totally jewed me."

And of course there's the word "gypped"

Thankfully I haven't heard "indian-giver" in a long time. i think perhaps it has too many syllables for the sort of people prone to that sort of thing?

Well that'll teach me to be smart.... :-/

they were being sung by a Jewish guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PzhPIU-RU4

(I don't think Joey intended anything racist by it though. That would have been more Johnny's thing)

..."go to so-and-so, you can Jew them down easily."

I retract!

The latter just doesn't sound right to me either. I've never quite known why. I'm not Jewish, but grew up in a heavily Jewish area.

BTW, I see you are in China. Where and what for? Have you been there long?

I am in Japan. Kansai area.

My father was born in Osaka! He speaks Kansai ben. I wish I did.. My mother was an English Teacher (She speaks Korean, Japanese and English) So taught my dad English and I learned it from her as well.

Because I see someone else already made the joke.

the Jewish People the Chosen People? Hey by the way what do you call us Gentiles? I don't like that word either and demand you call me the The Amazing Gentile People.

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I kind of figures that out. Still I find being referred to as a Gentile disgusting. So please take note of your own criticisms.

Call a rabbi and ask.

Jews are called Jews because... they're Jews. Like Arabs, Germans, Christians... and so forth. To hear bigotry in the word Jew is to display your own paranoia.

And Zionists are Zionists. These are descriptive terms, not insults. I agree it's poor form to conflate the terms Israeli and Jew, but beyond that I think your point here is silly.

Do you go around saying, "the ____ people" when referring to other groups?

How it's been used to mean "cheat," for example? It's possible.

Could also be the way it sounds when people refer to Israelis as "the Jews," and the history of that word as a referent for "Christ killers."

It's something for gentiles to be sensitive about, in my opinion. When African-Americans objected to being called "the Blacks," I don't think many on the left questioned them on it.

You'll thank me later

Where have we heard that advice before...?

It's amazing how some people can spit that word out like it's bile in their throat. Bleech!

:eyes:

someone who advocates everything the state of Israel does?

sometimes I think our punishment is to have to type more keystrokes. That'll serve those WASPs! Make it impossible for them to refer to the collective supporting a thing without having to describe it in as many words as possible.

that said, i agree, "jews" just makes me think of Nazis using the word. Then again, one has let them "win" by making it a bad thing to use it that way.

.